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I think we all were happy when GOM decided to get more foreigners into GSL, with the alotted "4 spots" that was presented before haypro, ret, moonglade and huk got their initial invites. However, there were always questionmarks, how was these players decided? Why werent other players with more skill chosen? But who cared, foreigners were playing against koreans in korea and it was all very exciting!
Since then alot of things have happened though, alot of foreigners go to korea and are seeded in code a based on nothing at all, others come 15th in MLG and then go 2-3 months later.. since there seems to be no agreement of wich GSL you go to when doing well at MLG. Now most lately Morrow gets a free spot based on "his accomplishments in SC2" or something like that. We were many that were glad when MLG and GSL started cooperationg, it seemed that all this randomness would end and that the players getting seeds would be deserving of them. This didn't happen. We are still in the seat we were a year ago and GSL seems less and less professional and more and more desperate to get foreigners. Alot of players go there, compete in code a, qualify for next months tournament and then leave.. it seems like theres no planning from GSL at all.
Now gom have invented a rule that lets them kick out Naniwa because they say he only wants money, and is not professional. This is completely based on the korean netizens reactions, and has nothing to do with what happened in the game. If korean players and netizens would have laughed at it as a stupid thing to do, gom wouldnt have taken Naniwas code-s spot away from him. In other words, noone knew the ruling before the reaction from the korean netizens.. this is the definition of being unprofessional. Inventing rules/interpreting them as wanted to comply to what some fans want.
More skill, less arbitrary popularity contests. please.
PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE POST, NOT JUST THE PART ABOUT NANIWA
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If a Korean did it, he would be finished.
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I dont understand why every1 is so shocked over this. We saw that there were 2 foreign code S invites when they showed us the new system and everyone loved it then.
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i think ur assuming here. u mentioned that GOM invented a rule but i'm pretty sure they had given players a briefing regarding their tournament rules, but dont quote me on that
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Lets take into consideration the most recent game ruining claims..
Choya Ladder fixing
Byun/Coca conspiracy to push ESV to a game 3 when coca won 2-0
What happened to them
Yes.... arbitrary popularity contests..
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What GOM giveth, so too GOM shall taketh away. Coca and Rain lost their code S spots for 'unprofessional behavior' so it's not like we didn't know the rule didn't exist.
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Foreigners shouldnt be babied and get special treatment. If a korean programer did what nani did they would have a much harsher punoshment. Nani is pretty lucky.
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Lol swedish bias. Maybe you should read up on details before saying bullshit here. They didn't invent any rules, those rules were there from the start. Nobody forced Naniwa to come to Korea of be a part of Blizzcup and GSL. If he wants to play there he needs to abide by their rules.
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On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished.
A korean would have been kicked off his team.
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This has been gone through many times now but some people actually pay to watch the games so no matter how insignificant the game is, you are still expected to play it rather than just throwing the game like that. Plus, it's their tournament so GOM had the right to punish Naniwa.
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On December 14 2011 20:16 Candide wrote:
Lets take into consideration the most recent game ruining claims..
Choya Ladder fixing
Byun/Coca conspiracy to push ESV to a game 3 when coca won 2-0
What happened to them
Yes.... arbitrary popularity contests..
Those were like actual things wrong. What Nani did was BM at best and as far as I can tell there were no rules against probe rushing in the GSL.
And that still has nothing to do with how the invites are chosen.
edit- @ the guy above me: then write a rule stating so. If there was a rule in place, fine. If there wasn't, then IMO it's just wrong to arbitrarily ban a guy based on public reaction.
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On December 14 2011 20:18 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. A korean would have been kicked off his team.
That's exactly what would have happened, and we have precedent. After seeing that, I'm convinced Naniwa still has some growing up to do.
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Your bias is showing. He deserved it.
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On December 14 2011 20:17 red4ce wrote:
What GOM giveth, so too GOM shall taketh away. Coca and Rain lost their code S spots for 'unprofessional behavior' so it's not like we didn't know the rule didn't exist.
What did Rain do... was it not show up to a match or something? I can't remember it was so long ago -_-
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Nice, now everybody makes an own thread for his opinion, which could easily be a post in one of the thousand other threads about this topic....
All for the e-fame.
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they didnt event a rule, they applied a rule within their rules to something naniwa did.
Im pretty sure nestea was offended, who wouldnt be.
Naniwa doesnt have enough respect to even play out a gaame with him in a tournament hes being paid to play in ? (he got 900 dollars for last place i beleive) that aint bad for losing 4 games.
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If you throw away a game, you are banned. It's in the rules from the beginning of the GSL and naniwa is supposed to know the rules, there is no point to qq.
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Naniwa played out that situation quite poorly. I don't agree with the punishment, but I will respect it. GOM is setting an example (which is pretty responsible of them) which I think that us foreigners should respect. You don't throw matches when you feel like it, you play the games, professionally.
I'll say it again, I am really bummed out about it, but I will come to accept it, and I think I will look back at this situation in a week or two and have come to the point that I will be thankful of GOM for setting an example. That you show respect to other people/gamers/fans etc.
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Why don't you guys get Naniwa a lawyer and have him sue GOMTV. LOL
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This is the first time its ever even come into question. They took action and there isnt anything we can do about it. The rules "becoming a problem" is just a stupid thing to bring up.
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Trust me, this is nothing. If KeSPA was around, you'd be disqualified if you type PP incorrectly. I can't possible imagine what the hell would happen if they were around.
Also rules are rules. Coca casually threw games away and then he got disqualified for his behaviour. Naniwa will receive the same treatment, as with Rain when he failed to attend the group selection and failed to notify GSL prior to forefeiting GSL (he was banned for a brief time).
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On December 14 2011 20:18 DystopiaX wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:16 Candide wrote:
Lets take into consideration the most recent game ruining claims..
Choya Ladder fixing
Byun/Coca conspiracy to push ESV to a game 3 when coca won 2-0
What happened to them
Yes.... arbitrary popularity contests.. Those were like actual things wrong. What Nani did was BM at best and as far as I can tell there were no rules against probe rushing in the GSL. And that still has nothing to do with how the invites are chosen. edit- @ the guy above me: then write a rule stating so. If there was a rule in place, fine. If there wasn't, then IMO it's just wrong to arbitrarily ban a guy based on public reaction.
okay but naniwa didnt just probe rush and try. He pressed a on nesteas base and took his hands off the keyboard. Thats making a statement.
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Naniwa is lucky he isn't Korean.
Remember that Koreans found the punishment for Coca too mild. Culture clash.
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On December 14 2011 20:18 DystopiaX wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:16 Candide wrote:
Lets take into consideration the most recent game ruining claims..
Choya Ladder fixing
Byun/Coca conspiracy to push ESV to a game 3 when coca won 2-0
What happened to them
Yes.... arbitrary popularity contests.. Those were like actual things wrong. What Nani did was BM at best and as far as I can tell there were no rules against probe rushing in the GSL. And that still has nothing to do with how the invites are chosen. edit- @ the guy above me: then write a rule stating so. If there was a rule in place, fine. If there wasn't, then IMO it's just wrong to arbitrarily ban a guy based on public reaction.
I say this because everyone seems to think its valid to bring them up you can see it in the 90 pages of naniwa... he could have simply 4gated and walked away but he 6 probe rushes ggs and says on record that he basically didn't want to play it(throwing) and it is considered disrespect to throw a game... which is the rule
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The real question here is starcraft a sport or not?
In meatspace sports professional athletes play out equally "meaningless" matches at the end of the regular season all the time, and they don't complain about it
Do we need to restructure the NFL so that we cancel all regular season games when a team is no longer able to make the playoffs?
As always the koreans are years ahead of us in the development of e-sports, so it's not surprising the difference in reaction between foreigners and koreans.
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lets be honest here, naniwa is not exactly know for his nice manners and he can be kind of a douche sometimes, so he had it coming sooner or later, just hope he can learn from this, its just 1 month ban
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coca barely received any punishment from gom, it was slayers who forced him to drop out.
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On December 14 2011 20:23 Candide wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:18 DystopiaX wrote:On December 14 2011 20:16 Candide wrote:
Lets take into consideration the most recent game ruining claims..
Choya Ladder fixing
Byun/Coca conspiracy to push ESV to a game 3 when coca won 2-0
What happened to them
Yes.... arbitrary popularity contests.. Those were like actual things wrong. What Nani did was BM at best and as far as I can tell there were no rules against probe rushing in the GSL. And that still has nothing to do with how the invites are chosen. edit- @ the guy above me: then write a rule stating so. If there was a rule in place, fine. If there wasn't, then IMO it's just wrong to arbitrarily ban a guy based on public reaction. I say this because everyone seems to think its valid to bring them up you can see it in the 90 pages of naniwa... he could have simply 4gated and walked away but he 6 probe rushes ggs and says on record that he basically didn't want to play it(throwing) and it is considered disrespect to throw a game... which is the rule
How would throwing the game with a 4 gate be any different if it's also throwing the game that's the point. Tyler mentioned this as well on his twitter but this happens all the time, it was just more obvious now. Why don't all the other situations get the same punishment?
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On December 14 2011 20:17 ptbl wrote:
Foreigners shouldnt be babied and get special treatment. If a korean programer did what nani did they would have a much harsher punoshment. Nani is pretty lucky.
Coca, Byun and Choya all threw games. All of their games mattered in terms of the GSL tournament. None of which were banned.
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I'm not sure about Code S spot because it's like giving something that need to be earn since Code S is meant to be the super league but i'm okay with GOM giving some Code A or up&down spots. It's almost impossible for foreigners to "earn" their way to code A since the Code A qualifier is by far the hardest tournament in term of format and skill representation, if you aren't in Korea training for 5 or 6 months it seems impossible to earn the Code A spot.
Maybe GOM would gain to be more clear on the rules but i don't think their rules are this difficult to apprehend. The thing is you need to follow every tournament to know who wins or who takes X place in Y tournament and then follow every thread to know if something happened like a player renouncing to his spot... At least be less discret about all that and put a page or something on their website for people to understand how it work without going through 30 pages on TL.
IMO, GOM is doing a great job and even if there are some communication problems with foreign fans the most part of the whole thing is pretty cool and i think we all should be grateful for all they are doing to bring Korean competition into the foreign scene. I'm aware of the fact that they are not doing it because it's great and the birds are singing, they gain a LOT of money by doing that but hey who'll blame them for that.
So, i'ld say yes for more skill related code A give away but there will never be a "Code X" spot for a foreigner that will be deserved by an other way than beating the code B tournament.
PS: why all the Naniwa stuff in this topic? 0o
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Gom are way over line with removing his Code S seed.. I was going to buy a 1 year pass, but after hearing this news I will never buy any season pass again...
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Answer: No
Reason: doesnt need to be cleared up.
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is everyone skipping the entire post until "naniwa" is mentioned or what?!
cmon people.
and i may be biased, but then why would i bring up morrow as an example of an undeserving invite?
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On December 14 2011 20:23 Meteora.GB wrote:
Trust me, this is nothing. If KeSPA was around, you'd be disqualified if you type PP incorrectly. I can't possible imagine what the hell would happen if they were around.
Also rules are rules. Coca casually threw games away and then he got disqualified for his behaviour. Naniwa will receive the same treatment, as with Rain when he failed to attend the group selection and failed to notify GSL prior to forefeiting GSL (he was banned for a brief time).
Everyone is shitting on KeSPA for this but when you thing about it, it is very logical. KeSPA doesn't look at BW as a computer game but a sport. And the players are not just competing in tactics and hand speed but also concentration and mental capacity. Any pause during the game is helping the player with less concentration and mental capacity as he gets to calm down a bit and have a short pause.
I hope one day any breaks are disallowed in SC2 as well.
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On December 14 2011 20:24 Zanno wrote:
The real question here is starcraft a sport or not?
In meatspace sports professional athletes play out equally "meaningless" matches at the end of the regular season all the time, and they don't complain about it
Do we need to restructure the NFL so that we cancel all regular season games when a team is no longer able to make the playoffs?
As always the koreans are years ahead of us in the development of e-sports, so it's not surprising the difference in reaction between foreigners and koreans.
They play the games because they are contractually obligated to play them by their teams. Their teams rely on those regular season meaningless games for revenue through ticket prices/merchandise/parking/television contracts that in turn pays the players salary. Even with that said Owners and Coaches sit out their best players all the time toward the end of the season if they can't make the playoffs to not risk injury and to get the B-teamers some play time. They aren't trying to win the game in any capacity, they are just doing the absolute minimum that they need to do to meet the contractual obligations of the league.
Naniwa fucked up and should've just 4-gated but, you can't inject motivation into a player. It was a meaningless game to both him and Nestea within the tournament. Naniwa is just horrible at pretending like 99% of the other players are capable of doing. That's really his only fault.
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On December 14 2011 20:25 nugget-92 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:17 ptbl wrote:
Foreigners shouldnt be babied and get special treatment. If a korean programer did what nani did they would have a much harsher punoshment. Nani is pretty lucky. Coca, Byun and Choya all threw games. All of their games mattered in terms of the GSL tournament. None of which were banned.
uhh all were banned from GSL (not by gom directly)
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sooo many threads.
all from people with low post counts.....
anyway.
it saddens me to see them somewhat abuse their ''power'' and kick out nani (fair choice though) but inviting Sen wasn't called for imo.
idra yes since he was code S when he left but still that can be argued about.
was hoping for an online/offline tourney to determine rather than what looks like a popularity contest.
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On December 14 2011 20:27 Enearde wrote:
I'm not sure about Code S spot because it's like giving something that need to be earn since Code S is meant to be the super league but i'm okay with GOM giving some Code A or up&down spots. It's almost impossible for foreigners to "earn" their way to code A since the Code A qualifier is by far the hardest tournament in term of format and skill representation, if you aren't in Korea training for 5 or 6 months it seems impossible to earn the Code A spot.
Maybe GOM would gain to be more clear on the rules but i don't think their rules are this difficult to apprehend. The thing is you need to follow every tournament to know who wins or who takes X place in Y tournament and then follow every thread to know if something happened like a player renouncing to his spot... At least be less discret about all that and put a page or something on their website for people to understand how it work without going through 30 pages on TL.
IMO, GOM is doing a great job and even if there are some communication problems with foreign fans the most part of the whole thing is pretty cool and i think we all should be grateful for all they are doing to bring Korean competition into the foreign scene. I'm aware of the fact that they are not doing it because it's great and the birds are singing, they gain a LOT of money by doing that but hey who'll blame them for that.
So, i'ld say yes for more skill related code A give away but there will never be a "Code X" spot for a foreigner that will be deserved by an other way than beating the code B tournament.
PS: why all the Naniwa stuff in this topic? 0o
GOM should limit the number of foreigner spots to
1. People with enough skill
2. People that want to be in korea
theres no point in having foreigners there that doesnt fullfill these requirements, and still gom is doing everything it can to get people seeded. if sase is deserving, he can qualify through MLG or code b. its as simple as that.
neither the korean nor the international community benefits the least from seeing "decent" foreigners get demolished.
it should be clear what MLG leads to what GSL seed and maybe even a bonus for the player to go to korea, an incentive to give up all the tournaments and social aspects of the rest of the world. to go to korea should be someting people are trying to achieve in mlg, not just a bonus they may or may not want.
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On December 14 2011 20:21 Goibon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:17 red4ce wrote:
What GOM giveth, so too GOM shall taketh away. Coca and Rain lost their code S spots for 'unprofessional behavior' so it's not like we didn't know the rule didn't exist. What did Rain do... was it not show up to a match or something? I can't remember it was so long ago -_-
He called up on the day of the group nominations saying that he was forfeiting his Code S spot. Because of the short term notice he was banned for 2 seasons.
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On December 14 2011 20:38 jjhchsc2 wrote:
sooo many threads.
all from people with low post counts.....
anyway.
it saddens me to see them somewhat abuse their ''power'' and kick out nani (fair choice though) but inviting Sen wasn't called for imo.
idra yes since he was code S when he left but still that can be argued about.
was hoping for an online/offline tourney to determine rather than what looks like a popularity contest.
Sen just finished 3rd at NASL2. He has been a strong player for a long time. He deserves it, maybe even more then Idra whose recent results have not been great.
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Nani being called a Money Hunter is bullshit. He's one of if not the hardest working guy in sc2, if he were truly money hunting he'd be streaming all the time, and wouldn't have tossed the match seeing as how he'd look better in the eyes of sponsors. By throwing it cause there was absolutly NOTHING to play for which makes if far from what Choya and Coca did he doesn't look as appealing to sponsors as he could've meaning HE ISNT IN IT FOR THE FUCKING MONEY. Who ever said that needs to be dearly punished for defamation of character. I can't believe someone would call a person "unprofessional" but then go around an defame them with falsehoods which is just as unprofessional. Its bullshit and hypocrisy and never should've happened.
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On December 14 2011 20:16 Candide wrote:
Lets take into consideration the most recent game ruining claims..
Choya Ladder fixing
Byun/Coca conspiracy to push ESV to a game 3 when coca won 2-0
What happened to them
Yes.... arbitrary popularity contests..
Pretty sure Choya was banned from playing in the next team league which he was so he became a player coach.
Byun was dropped to the B team and banned from playing in ANY tournaments until Prime deems he's learned his lesson. Also he cant play in GSL until GOM also agree's he learned his lesson
CoCa lost his Code S spot, Was banned from ALL tournaments REMOVED from the A team and the practice house until boxer says he learned his lesson. As well as GOM agreeing he ready to come back to GSL
all 3 of those players faced bans for what they did.
Naniwa being out for 1 tournament sounds like they following their usual mind set
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Koreans need to get rid of that medieval mentality with all that bull shit "honor and pride". Its all fake. All of it.
Fire your tournament organizer for having such a terrible format, not Naniwa.
Next season GOM is going to introduce interviews with the game loser I bet, and if you dip out on the interview you will be banned.
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It's kinda of weird to me, Noone pushed to the Nestea, " Hey drop the birthday Party, U practice for blizzcup there will be 4 matches". Naniwa had vacation and flew long distance even changing twice airplanes and even had interviews with TL/and Gom etc. And he changed team no matter what it was his want or Not. This is really Korean typical issue, when they get together, they can do Anything, pushing someone else Out, Because they just don't like it.
I saw all their twitters last night, it just was common letters, Korean must be very disppointed, but as a person/individual, I also regard that also just their own individual common dialogue, it just was happening. It's not easy to play 5-6 matches/ a day it was even evening. Naniwa just getting adjust himself new country, Do you think, he must hang out here new place? He just came here to new career, I don't think he just wants only money <- this must be only Gom's opinion. He just social awkward like you guys saying. maybe sick. Buy this is only he wants. Only he dumped up his 4th match, Code-S seed is revoked? This is total revenge from nestea and Dong-Hoon, Kang all the his team then. I thought he getting stick together each other well then. I don't know what was the reason of Couch Kang refused him to be there though. from my eyes they seem all every each one kool, but there must be something unwelcome naniwa inside there, and even though there are so many people surrounded there naniwa, there must be something making naniwa so lonely and cold.
I know's naniwas's problem. but you think, this will be the reason that he should be code-S seed revoked alternative making to Sen??
Grew up guys, open eyes, we cant make it because we got hurt, and he just dumped us up, unlike our hopening & expectation. Read that - 경기중에 과격한 행동으로 상대 게이머나 관중들에게 위협을 가할 때
I think, you guys prefer wants money, I don't find any aggresive or threaten from his action with the match with nestea game # 9 yesterday evening.
I think, you guys prefer want Respect & Fame than Naniwa.
I hope this can be assured for naniwa, as long as I know this is all his hope and aim to Korea.
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can people please read the OP and not just post the same things about naniwa that are being posted in every other thread?!
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On December 14 2011 20:43 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:38 jjhchsc2 wrote:
sooo many threads.
all from people with low post counts.....
anyway.
it saddens me to see them somewhat abuse their ''power'' and kick out nani (fair choice though) but inviting Sen wasn't called for imo.
idra yes since he was code S when he left but still that can be argued about.
was hoping for an online/offline tourney to determine rather than what looks like a popularity contest. I dont agree with the idra invite simply because he left GSL and they didnt have time to find a replacement for him because he told them too late, and his group then had 3 players instead of 4, yet GOM shows him love. Rain doesnt go to the code S ceremony and forfeits his code S spot because hes moving new york(?), they cant find a replacement for himeither, they ban him for 3 seasons. They make up too much on the fly which is pretty unprofessional. The random code s/a invites all over the place to undeserving players i dont agree with at all.
Not completely true, I think. IdrA told Gom that he would leave the GSL, but Gom said he had to keep it quiet.
I remember an interview with IdrA were he said he found it funny how all his rivals picked him to be in their group, while he told Gom that he would leave but nobody else knew it.
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Naniwa got what he deserved, and the rule isn't arbitrary nor was it invented just for Naniwa. Had it been a Korean there would have been even harsher consequences from his team as well as the punishment from Gom. He needs to fix his attitude before it doesn't any more damage to his career.
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On December 14 2011 20:43 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:38 jjhchsc2 wrote:
sooo many threads.
all from people with low post counts.....
anyway.
it saddens me to see them somewhat abuse their ''power'' and kick out nani (fair choice though) but inviting Sen wasn't called for imo.
idra yes since he was code S when he left but still that can be argued about.
was hoping for an online/offline tourney to determine rather than what looks like a popularity contest. I dont agree with the idra invite simply because he left GSL and they didnt have time to find a replacement for him because he told them too late, and his group then had 3 players instead of 4, yet GOM shows him love. Rain doesnt go to the code S ceremony and forfeits his code S spot because hes moving new york(?), they cant find a replacement for himeither, they ban him for 3 seasons. They make up too much on the fly which is pretty unprofessional. The random code s/a invites all over the place to undeserving players i dont agree with at all.
Idra told GOM in advance, they even had time to make a tribute video for Idra leaving.
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Its pretty easy to follow the rules, just dont do stupid shit.
Choya, Byun, Coca , Naniwa they all acted stupid if you ask me, use some common sense and you're fine.
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GOMTV rules are arbitrary and it's not good. This leave bad taste in customers mouth. It's bad for me, it's bad for many other people like me, it's bad for GOMTV, and it's bad for SC2.
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On December 14 2011 20:52 gregnog wrote:
Koreans need to get rid of that medieval mentality with all that bull shit "honor and pride". Its all fake. All of it.
Fire your tournament organizer for having such a terrible format, not Naniwa.
Next season GOM is going to introduce interviews with the game loser I bet, and if you dip out on the interview you will be banned.
since when is honor and pride a medieval mentality. where do you live?
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It is bad when you wish for KeSPA back. Hopefully if the BW stars switches over it would most likely mean that GOMTV's monopoly in Korea has ended, if they don't, well, SC2 will die in Korea and GSL with it. Good riddance to the latter.
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On December 14 2011 20:12 Soma.bokforlag wrote:
Now gom have invented a rule
Are you sure they just randomly "invented" this rule? How do you know that it hasn't been in place since GOM's BW days?
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it becomes a problem only for naniwa fans
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On December 14 2011 21:00 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:52 gregnog wrote:
Koreans need to get rid of that medieval mentality with all that bull shit "honor and pride". Its all fake. All of it.
Fire your tournament organizer for having such a terrible format, not Naniwa.
Next season GOM is going to introduce interviews with the game loser I bet, and if you dip out on the interview you will be banned. since when is honor and pride a medieval mentality. where do you live?
A fake game with the illusion of real competition is what the Koreans want.
But then they pretend its about fans/pride/honor.
Where was Nesteas honor when he purposefully gave MVP the win at Blizzcon finals? That game had a 25k difference in 1st and 2nd place. (Most likely split the difference...) Naniwas was literally meaningless.
Please do not make the naive assumption that skipping meaningless games detract from your pride and honor. That is what I am getting at.
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On December 14 2011 21:03 Eury wrote:
It is bad when you wish for KeSPA back. Hopefully if the BW stars switches over it would most likely mean that GOMTV's monopoly in Korea has ended, if they don't, well, SC2 will die in Korea and GSL with it. Good riddance to the latter.
what? if it was Kespa, Naniwa would've been banned for life.
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If the topic of your OP can be answered with "no", don't write it 
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GOM's running a business, they need to please their viewers, and they'll do whatever it takes. They can't afford to have the integrity to go against the wishes of the masses. Maybe in a few years their position will be strong enough to do such a thing, but it's way too early right now. In essence, yes, they're handing out punishment based on fan reactions, rather than the rules themselves, and since the fans are idiots with a herd-mentality, it comes out the way it does.
Still, insulting Naniwa by calling him a money-grubbing amateur was totally uncalled for. That, they did not need to do, and it looks way more unprofessional than what Naniwa himself did. Next thing you know Code S qualification is going to be based on a popularity contest, with the casters doing stand-up comedy during the breaks.
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You are stupid if you think that a professional gamer, being required to be professional is considered arbitrary. One day when you get a job that means shit and puts you in the scrutiny of others perhaps you'll understand. Act like a kid and you'll be treated like a kid, especially when it's a job.
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On December 14 2011 21:00 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:52 gregnog wrote:
Koreans need to get rid of that medieval mentality with all that bull shit "honor and pride". Its all fake. All of it.
Fire your tournament organizer for having such a terrible format, not Naniwa.
Next season GOM is going to introduce interviews with the game loser I bet, and if you dip out on the interview you will be banned. since when is honor and pride a medieval mentality. where do you live?
Having to play a consolation match is also standard practice in most tournaments. If it isn't televised and there is other stuff going on like at MLG, perhaps this sort of stuff is okay, but if they are depending on you with cameras on and there is hype still going into the match, you really ought to try and give a good show, even if it is not the most competitive play in the world. GOM pays the bills with broadcasting, if they cant broadcast good games, stuff gets cut. Its in the interest of the gamer to support the industry who you are expecting to get a check from, and not be just a leech.
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On December 14 2011 21:05 gregnog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:00 iky43210 wrote:On December 14 2011 20:52 gregnog wrote:
Koreans need to get rid of that medieval mentality with all that bull shit "honor and pride". Its all fake. All of it.
Fire your tournament organizer for having such a terrible format, not Naniwa.
Next season GOM is going to introduce interviews with the game loser I bet, and if you dip out on the interview you will be banned. since when is honor and pride a medieval mentality. where do you live? A fake game with the illusion of real competition is what the Koreans want. But then they pretend its about fans/pride/honor. Where was Nesteas honor when he purposefully gave MVP the win at Blizzcon finals? That game had a 25k difference in 1st and 2nd place. (Most likely split the difference...) Naniwas was literally meaningless. Please do not make the naive assumption that skipping meaningless games detract from your pride and honor. That is what I am getting at.
every sports in the world is exactly the same, and they all receives heavy punishment as well if you pull any stunts like that. I guess all sports are all fake honor and pride then right?
and seriously your accusation without proofs is not something a logical person would do. Where is your proof that Nestea purposely throw away the game? I'm not sure why I am even wasting my time responding to a conspiracist.
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On December 14 2011 20:52 gregnog wrote:
Koreans need to get rid of that medieval mentality with all that bull shit "honor and pride". Its all fake. All of it.
Next season GOM is going to introduce interviews with the game loser I bet, and if you dip out on the interview you will be banned.
Which would be perfectly fine.
Have you seen a Grand Slam final?
There is an immediate loser interview (before the Winner interview)... Why? Because people are interested in this.
If you want to become a professional athlete you better stop being a fucking crybaby when you lose or feel like the game yo have to play now is pointless. YOUR JOB SOMETIMES SUCKS, no matter what job, DEAL WITH IT.
Actually you can be a crybaby, but you have to man up and do what your paid to do, which is aside from playing also giving interviews and represent your team.
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On December 14 2011 21:03 Orcasgt24 wrote:Are you sure they just randomly "invented" this rule? How do you know that it hasn't been in place since GOM's BW days?
interpreted is maybe a better word, invented in the sense that noone knew that you could play a game in a fashion that was unsatisfactory in the eyes of gom. if korean netizens would have gone ballistic and raged about dancing or manner mules gom would surely have interpreted the rules in this way earlier.
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On December 14 2011 21:07 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:05 iky43210 wrote:On December 14 2011 21:03 Eury wrote:
It is bad when you wish for KeSPA back. Hopefully if the BW stars switches over it would most likely mean that GOMTV's monopoly in Korea has ended, if they don't, well, SC2 will die in Korea and GSL with it. Good riddance to the latter. what? if it was Kespa, Naniwa would've been banned for life. It's more about that Kespa has the rules written down and don't keep making things up for everything, which this thread is about. If there had been rules which naniwa broke i dont think anyone would actually be on naniwas side of what he did.
GOM's rules are written down. I would really like it if the whole book was posted online in english but the rules are readily availible to players. Its not like they enter these events assuming rules will be made up.
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On December 14 2011 20:55 mind_control wrote:
It's kinda of weird to me, Noone pushed to the Nestea, " Hey drop the birthday Party, U practice for blizzcup there will be 4 matches". Naniwa had vacation and flew long distance even changing twice airplanes and even had interviews with TL/and Gom etc. And he changed team no matter what it was his want or Not. This is really Korean typical issue, when they get together, they can do Anything, pushing someone else Out, Because they just don't like it.
I saw all their twitters last night, it just was common letters, Korean must be very disppointed, but as a person/individual, I also regard that also just their own individual common dialogue, it just was happening. It's not easy to play 5-6 matches/ a day it was even evening. Naniwa just getting adjust himself new country, Do you think, he must hang out here new place? He just came here to new career, I don't think he just wants only money <- this must be only Gom's opinion. He just social awkward like you guys saying. maybe sick. Buy this is only he wants. Only he dumped up his 4th match, Code-S seed is revoked? This is total revenge from nestea and Dong-Hoon, Kang all the his team then. I thought he getting stick together each other well then. I don't know what was the reason of Couch Kang refused him to be there though. from my eyes they seem all every each one kool, but there must be something unwelcome naniwa inside there, and even though there are so many people surrounded there naniwa, there must be something making naniwa so lonely and cold.
I know's naniwas's problem. but you think, this will be the reason that he should be code-S seed revoked alternative making to Sen??
Grew up guys, open eyes, we cant make it because we got hurt, and he just dumped us up, unlike our hopening & expectation. Read that - 경기중에 과격한 행동으로 상대 게이머나 관중들에게 위협을 가할 때
I think, you guys prefer wants money, I don't find any aggresive or threaten from his action with the match with nestea game # 9 yesterday evening.
I think, you guys prefer want Respect & Fame than Naniwa.
I hope this can be assured for naniwa, as long as I know this is all his hope and aim to Korea.
Thanks for the post, it's interesting to know that there are differing views of the situation in Korea as well!
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On December 14 2011 21:07 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:05 iky43210 wrote:On December 14 2011 21:03 Eury wrote:
It is bad when you wish for KeSPA back. Hopefully if the BW stars switches over it would most likely mean that GOMTV's monopoly in Korea has ended, if they don't, well, SC2 will die in Korea and GSL with it. Good riddance to the latter. what? if it was Kespa, Naniwa would've been banned for life. It's more about that Kespa has the rules written down and don't keep making things up for everything, which this thread is about. If there had been rules which naniwa broke i dont think anyone would actually be on naniwas side of what he did.
There is a rule. Basically, you are supposed to be professional.
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On December 14 2011 21:05 Toadvine wrote:
GOM's running a business, they need to please their viewers, and they'll do whatever it takes. They can't afford to have the integrity to go against the wishes of the masses. Maybe in a few years their position will be strong enough to do such a thing, but it's way too early right now. In essence, yes, they're handing out punishment based on fan reactions, rather than the rules themselves, and since the fans are idiots with a herd-mentality, it comes out the way it does.
Still, insulting Naniwa by calling him a money-grubbing amateur was totally uncalled for. That, they did not need to do, and it looks way more unprofessional than what Naniwa himself did. Next thing you know Code S qualification is going to be based on a popularity contest, with the casters doing stand-up comedy during the breaks.
i think this is very short sightened. maybe it is better to invite mediocre foreigners now, but people will get tired and find it is less entertaining. i can only go to myself, i get excited when i hear fenix, moonglade, haypro, sase and the rest getting invites, i wish for the best and then get really dissapointed.
if gom instead had tried to go for quality instead of quantity it would have been for the better in the long run.
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I completely don't see any problems with GOM's rules at all. It's pathetic If you need rules to tell you what you cant do.
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On December 14 2011 21:06 bubblegumbo wrote:
You are stupid if you think that a professional gamer, being required to be professional is considered arbitrary. One day when you get a job that means shit and puts you in the scrutiny of others perhaps you'll understand. Act like a kid and you'll be treated like a kid, especially when it's a job.
That would be like your boss telling you to take out the trash. After you are finished taking out the garbage, he then tells you to rip up some paper and throw it on the ground just to pick it up again. He is still paying you, but it is meaningless and you both know it.
I know you can say that the entertainment industry is a bit different than a real job. But a real fan should not get any enjoyment out of a fake game where neither opponent is putting in 100%.
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And whats up with the people acting up for punishing a player that is willingly dropping a televised game, he is paid for to play in, in a very obvious way.
He does not want to play?
Well do some all-in cannon rush / Proxigate whatever (you might even end up winning ^^). No one would care, but probe rushng is just not acceptable... Or just start the game and then leave his PC...
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On December 14 2011 21:06 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:05 gregnog wrote:On December 14 2011 21:00 iky43210 wrote:On December 14 2011 20:52 gregnog wrote:
Koreans need to get rid of that medieval mentality with all that bull shit "honor and pride". Its all fake. All of it.
Fire your tournament organizer for having such a terrible format, not Naniwa.
Next season GOM is going to introduce interviews with the game loser I bet, and if you dip out on the interview you will be banned. since when is honor and pride a medieval mentality. where do you live? A fake game with the illusion of real competition is what the Koreans want. But then they pretend its about fans/pride/honor. Where was Nesteas honor when he purposefully gave MVP the win at Blizzcon finals? That game had a 25k difference in 1st and 2nd place. (Most likely split the difference...) Naniwas was literally meaningless. Please do not make the naive assumption that skipping meaningless games detract from your pride and honor. That is what I am getting at. every sports in the world is exactly the same, and they all receives heavy punishment as well if you pull any stunts like that. I guess all sports are all fake honor and pride then right? and seriously your accusation without proofs is not something a logical person would do. Where is your proof that Nestea purposely throw away the game? I'm not sure why I am even wasting my time responding to a conspiracist.
No? I have heard that there is some soccer rule that has only been enforced 1 or 2 times. In the US there is no such rule, for any sport. It is actually standard strategy to not put in full effort for meaningless games.
Conspiracy? I guess you weren't around when the Blizzcon Finals happened. It is pretty well known. Them being on the same team and all...
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On December 14 2011 21:10 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:07 zeru wrote:On December 14 2011 21:05 iky43210 wrote:On December 14 2011 21:03 Eury wrote:
It is bad when you wish for KeSPA back. Hopefully if the BW stars switches over it would most likely mean that GOMTV's monopoly in Korea has ended, if they don't, well, SC2 will die in Korea and GSL with it. Good riddance to the latter. what? if it was Kespa, Naniwa would've been banned for life. It's more about that Kespa has the rules written down and don't keep making things up for everything, which this thread is about. If there had been rules which naniwa broke i dont think anyone would actually be on naniwas side of what he did. There is a rule. Basically, you are supposed to be professional.
do you really buy that? "you are supposed to be professional"? what does that entail? if players do sloppy plays and miss micro because the game doesnt matter, isnt that unprofessional? this is such a fine line, you might as well have a rule "players have to be 100% motivated for every game, otherwise you may at any point be banned from the league for being considered unprofessional"
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I just hope Naniwa takes the punishment on the chin and strives to earn his code S place back. He's worthy of competing with the top Koreans.
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On December 14 2011 21:12 Velr wrote:
And whats up with the people acting up for punishing a player that is willingly dropping a televised game, he is paid for to play in, in a very obvious way.
He does not want to play?
Well do some all-in cannon rush / Proxigate whatever (you might even end up winning ^^). No one would care, but prope rushng is just not acceptable... Or just start the game and then leave his PC...
What is the difference?
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On December 14 2011 21:12 Velr wrote:
And whats up with the people acting up for punishing a player that is willingly dropping a televised game, he is paid for to play in, in a very obvious way.
He does not want to play?
Well do some all-in cannon rush / Proxigate whatever (you might even end up winning ^^). No one would care, but prope rushng is just not acceptable... Or just start the game and then leave his PC...
Exactly.
Trying but doing something stupid and gg'ing if it doesn't work ... everyone will know he decided he didn't want to play a serious game so he cheesed and it either worked or it didn't.
But forfeiting isn't acceptable.
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On December 14 2011 21:06 bubblegumbo wrote:
You are stupid if you think that a professional gamer, being required to be professional is considered arbitrary. One day when you get a job that means shit and puts you in the scrutiny of others perhaps you'll understand. Act like a kid and you'll be treated like a kid, especially when it's a job.
edit: misread and agree
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You should behave according to the customs and cultures of the country or competition your participating in. No exceptions.
This is the most prestigious league in the entire world, nobody wants an MLG as bad as they want a GSL, and to watch players throw away matches, that me as a fan and the company as a governing body PAYED to see happen, is complete and utter horseshit.
he deserves everything he got and he should learn to pull his fucking head in.
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On December 14 2011 21:14 skyrunner wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:12 Velr wrote:
And whats up with the people acting up for punishing a player that is willingly dropping a televised game, he is paid for to play in, in a very obvious way.
He does not want to play?
Well do some all-in cannon rush / Proxigate whatever (you might even end up winning ^^). No one would care, but prope rushng is just not acceptable... Or just start the game and then leave his PC... What is the difference?
Effort. A cannon rush takes effort. Proxy 2 gate takes effort.
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On December 14 2011 21:09 Orcasgt24 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:07 zeru wrote:On December 14 2011 21:05 iky43210 wrote:On December 14 2011 21:03 Eury wrote:
It is bad when you wish for KeSPA back. Hopefully if the BW stars switches over it would most likely mean that GOMTV's monopoly in Korea has ended, if they don't, well, SC2 will die in Korea and GSL with it. Good riddance to the latter. what? if it was Kespa, Naniwa would've been banned for life. It's more about that Kespa has the rules written down and don't keep making things up for everything, which this thread is about. If there had been rules which naniwa broke i dont think anyone would actually be on naniwas side of what he did. GOM's rules are written down. I would really like it if the whole book was posted online in english but the rules are readily availible to players. Its not like they enter these events assuming rules will be made up.
GOM's rule is pretty much if we don't like you we can ban you. It is a very convenient and unfair rule to have.
Btw these things don't get decided by some moral or honor, they get decided by whether the netizens trows a hissy fit or not and the bandwagon gets started.
Coca threw games that actually mattered and he should had been punished for it, but the reason why Slayers punished him so harshly was because they were afraid if they didn't punish him harsh enough netizens would be up in arms over it, and it might had actually threaten the whole organization. They did it out of fear so they overreacted just to be safe.
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One thing delivers a, most likely short, game.
The other is just wasting time of everyone and on top of that basically saying fuck you to all the viewers and his opponent?
If you don't see the diffrence i can't help you.
You don't see football clubs that our allready out of the championship kicking the ball willingly in their own goal or just sit at the sidelines for 90 minutes just because they allready lost.
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On December 14 2011 21:14 gregnog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:06 iky43210 wrote:On December 14 2011 21:05 gregnog wrote:On December 14 2011 21:00 iky43210 wrote:On December 14 2011 20:52 gregnog wrote:
Koreans need to get rid of that medieval mentality with all that bull shit "honor and pride". Its all fake. All of it.
Fire your tournament organizer for having such a terrible format, not Naniwa.
Next season GOM is going to introduce interviews with the game loser I bet, and if you dip out on the interview you will be banned. since when is honor and pride a medieval mentality. where do you live? A fake game with the illusion of real competition is what the Koreans want. But then they pretend its about fans/pride/honor. Where was Nesteas honor when he purposefully gave MVP the win at Blizzcon finals? That game had a 25k difference in 1st and 2nd place. (Most likely split the difference...) Naniwas was literally meaningless. Please do not make the naive assumption that skipping meaningless games detract from your pride and honor. That is what I am getting at. every sports in the world is exactly the same, and they all receives heavy punishment as well if you pull any stunts like that. I guess all sports are all fake honor and pride then right? and seriously your accusation without proofs is not something a logical person would do. Where is your proof that Nestea purposely throw away the game? I'm not sure why I am even wasting my time responding to a conspiracist. No? I have heard that there is some soccer rule that has only been enforced 1 or 2 times. In the US there is no such rule, for any sport. It is actually standard strategy to not put in full effort for meaningless games. Conspiracy? I guess you weren't around when the Blizzcon Finals happened. It is pretty well known. Them being on the same team and all...
uh, what? teams do get penalized and fined if they field too weak of a team, even if they have no chance of moving on.
Here's a recent example, there's is a ton of them out there. When you are a professional athletes, you are expected to play to win. You can say good bye to your career if you purposely give up during middle of a game
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1351123/Premier-League-fine-Blackpool-25-000-fielding-weakened-Aston-Villa.html
And wtf are you talking about, you don't even know you're conspiring a bunch of crazy theories? I was there during the Blizzcon finals, sorry, you are the minority that actually believed it was staged.
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Coca hasn't been disqualified . Slayers said that he had to leave the house and change is attitude but GOM never kicked him out of code S , he did it by him self . Naniwa has been kicked , not fair in that regard , but I agree that Naniwa has done something really stupid . However , this doesn't earn to be kicked of code S ...
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On December 14 2011 21:07 Soma.bokforlag wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:03 Orcasgt24 wrote:On December 14 2011 20:12 Soma.bokforlag wrote:
Now gom have invented a rule Are you sure they just randomly "invented" this rule? How do you know that it hasn't been in place since GOM's BW days? interpreted is maybe a better word, invented in the sense that noone knew that you could play a game in a fashion that was unsatisfactory in the eyes of gom. if korean netizens would have gone ballistic and raged about dancing or manner mules gom would surely have interpreted the rules in this way earlier.
Maybe, but think about why the rule there in the first place? I mean let's say someone writes "fuck you" with drones for taunting purposes. What is the rule for that? Is that written specifically for that? What constitutes excessive mad manner? (one of the rule of GOMtv, afaik). Of course, a mule is a mild example as one could see that has least likely chance of offending someone. (These rules are generally made so it does not offend the viewers, or damages the minds of the players). What Naniwa did was show bad sportsmanship. I think the fact GOM is interpreting the rule this way is justified. However, the punishment Naniwa received was way too harsh. Maybe a warning or a small fine would been suffice.
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Nope, GOMTV continues to demonstrate what can be argued as not favoritism, but definitely an easier ride for foreigners to the various seeding of Code A and Code S.
Compare that to the nightmarish journey of your everyday Korean gamer, just trying to get noticed.
Guys don't argue semantics about professionalism. Picture yourself on your last day on the job. Did you perform to your fullest or did you purposefully do something that you knew was not appropriate?
Naniwa doing what he did - caught us off guard, but in the future we'll be watching him with renewed interest. What will he do this time? Volatility is frightening and in fact it was his shrewdest move yet. Not everyone can be a bad boy. Only people such as Naniwa can.
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Well, there might not be a written rule about what naniwa did but let's be honest, it's pretty obvious that what he did was wrong.
Why didn't he just told the officials that he wanted to forfeit the last game? Either because they didn't or wouldn't allow him to. Yet he went ahead and threw the game anyway (his probe rush had virtually zero possibility to win, he wanted the audience to know that he was throwing it). This is a clear slap in the face of the tourney. Gom really has no choice but to punish him for it.
Wethever taking away his code-S spot is the right punishment is another question. It certainly is harsh however given that it was a gift trough mlg and not a spot earned trough code-A i think it is certainly within Goms rights.
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I think gom's descision is wise..
All else it will grow like this to everygame
![[image loading]](http://static.esportsea.com/global/images/content_images/6881.jpg)
and then later on players think so freely that this happens
![[image loading]](http://th05.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2011/325/d/7/i_love_you_naniwa_by_ryuulavitz-d4gw4dh.jpg)
doesn't mlg have a rule to not talk in game and no swearing?
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Yes, I definitely agree. Throwing around random invites to people for whatever reason always seemed really unprofessional to me. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to see SaSe in Code A, but he should have earned his place there, just like everyone else. It de-legitimizes their performance in the tournament. And now NaNiwa who earned his Code S spot at Providence got banned for breaking no rules and it randomly goes to Sen because he's a fan favourite or something? This all just reeks unprofessionalism.
If NaNi doesn't get his Code S place when he's allowed to play in GSL again...
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I don't get why so many don't understand the decision. There are big cultural differences. Koreans value effort and honor, not only money, and it's strange for a foreigner not to adapt these values so not to offend. This is true for many countries. Grow up, adapt to the environment and rules, and regardless of all that, don't throw a game on purpose in a live televised paid tournament, regardless of what you think of the match. When accepting the invite, Naniwa accepted to play against all his opponents.
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GOM doesn't just make arbitrary rules:
- Choya was banned from the GSTL for playing rock-scissors-paper on the Blizzard ladder.
- Rain was banned from GSL for 2 seasons.
- Coca forfeited his Code S spot.
The punishment was harsh, yes, but it shows that GOM will not tolerate poor behaviour.
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Proberushing = Willingly dropping a game in one of the most obvious ways possible.
If that is breaking no rules then that rule should be written in fast. Just because there is no explicit article against probe rushing does not mean that you can't use other rules to punish such bullshit.
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On December 14 2011 21:21 shabby wrote:
I don't get why so many don't understand the decision. There are big cultural differences. Koreans value effort and honor, not only money, and it's strange for a foreigner not to adapt these values so not to offend. This is true for many countries. Grow up, adapt to the environment and rules, and regardless of all that, don't throw a game on purpose in a live televised paid tournament, regardless of what you think of the match. When accepting the invite, Naniwa accepted to play against all his opponents.
Stop watching anime. Korea and Japan value honor at face value, just to keep up appearance. It is all a sham, and what happens in Korea gets dictated by netizens, not rules or honor, welcome to Korea.
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On December 14 2011 21:19 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:14 gregnog wrote:On December 14 2011 21:06 iky43210 wrote:On December 14 2011 21:05 gregnog wrote:On December 14 2011 21:00 iky43210 wrote:On December 14 2011 20:52 gregnog wrote:
Koreans need to get rid of that medieval mentality with all that bull shit "honor and pride". Its all fake. All of it.
Fire your tournament organizer for having such a terrible format, not Naniwa.
Next season GOM is going to introduce interviews with the game loser I bet, and if you dip out on the interview you will be banned. since when is honor and pride a medieval mentality. where do you live? A fake game with the illusion of real competition is what the Koreans want. But then they pretend its about fans/pride/honor. Where was Nesteas honor when he purposefully gave MVP the win at Blizzcon finals? That game had a 25k difference in 1st and 2nd place. (Most likely split the difference...) Naniwas was literally meaningless. Please do not make the naive assumption that skipping meaningless games detract from your pride and honor. That is what I am getting at. every sports in the world is exactly the same, and they all receives heavy punishment as well if you pull any stunts like that. I guess all sports are all fake honor and pride then right? and seriously your accusation without proofs is not something a logical person would do. Where is your proof that Nestea purposely throw away the game? I'm not sure why I am even wasting my time responding to a conspiracist. No? I have heard that there is some soccer rule that has only been enforced 1 or 2 times. In the US there is no such rule, for any sport. It is actually standard strategy to not put in full effort for meaningless games. Conspiracy? I guess you weren't around when the Blizzcon Finals happened. It is pretty well known. Them being on the same team and all... uh, what? teams do get penalized and fined if they field too weak of a team, even if they have no chance of moving on. Here's a recent example, there's is a ton of them out there. When you are a professional athletes, you are expected to play to win. You can say good bye to your career if you purposely give up during middle of a game http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1351123/Premier-League-fine-Blackpool-25-000-fielding-weakened-Aston-Villa.htmlAnd wtf are you talking about, you don't even know you're conspiring a bunch of crazy theories? I was there during the Blizzcon finals, sorry, you are the minority that actually believed it was staged.
Ya, I mentioned soccer in my post that you quoted. Did you not see it?
You conveniently skip where I let you know that no US sport has any rule against not trying.
Do you even play Starcraft 2? Nah you obviously don't.
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I don't think that it's arbitrary rule making, it's more the organization reserving the right to pass judgement on its participants for conduct that they consider detrimental to the organization's credibility and image. To me I don't think a more extensive rule set needs to be written up, I think people need to stop thinking in terms of "what can I get away with" and more in terms of "If I just do what I'm supposed to then the rules, whether 5 or 500, are a moot point."
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On December 14 2011 21:21 Azzur wrote:
GOM doesn't just make arbitrary rules:
- Choya was banned from the GSTL for playing rock-scissors-paper on the Blizzard ladder.
- Rain was banned from GSL for 2 seasons.
- Coca forfeited his Code S spot.
The punishment was harsh, yes, but it shows that GOM will not tolerate poor behaviour.
Coca was not forced to do it.
However, yeah, not turning up for group selection, banned for 2 seasons seem so extreme. I think the rules GOM has is not illogical however, the punishments they give out never seem to fit the crime.
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Sen got his place from WCG. So no favoritism.
Look i'm sure there's some loose 'Code of Conduct' that GOM has in place, which definitely needs to be set in stone with clear ramifications if players get out of hand. Plus they should actively work on briefing foreign players with these rules so they are clear that if they get out of hand these spots will not be handed out so freely.
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I have also thought about what the op wrote about the invites for code A and code S. They are just random. it could just as well be a team buying a spot from gom as it is, we dont know.
I wish they only had agreements with certain leagues if they want to seed people in. At least something that lets us know how they go about it.
Its the same shit with blizzard regionals. No one knows how players got invited. Some did, some didnt.
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On December 14 2011 21:14 Soma.bokforlag wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:10 NHY wrote:On December 14 2011 21:07 zeru wrote:On December 14 2011 21:05 iky43210 wrote:On December 14 2011 21:03 Eury wrote:
It is bad when you wish for KeSPA back. Hopefully if the BW stars switches over it would most likely mean that GOMTV's monopoly in Korea has ended, if they don't, well, SC2 will die in Korea and GSL with it. Good riddance to the latter. what? if it was Kespa, Naniwa would've been banned for life. It's more about that Kespa has the rules written down and don't keep making things up for everything, which this thread is about. If there had been rules which naniwa broke i dont think anyone would actually be on naniwas side of what he did. There is a rule. Basically, you are supposed to be professional. do you really buy that? "you are supposed to be professional"? what does that entail? if players do sloppy plays and miss micro because the game doesnt matter, isnt that unprofessional? this is such a fine line, you might as well have a rule "players have to be 100% motivated for every game, otherwise you may at any point be banned from the league for being considered unprofessional"
I know It is vague, just like everything else in real life.
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It's sad because if Naniwa knew it would have been such a mess, he probably would just 4gate him and lose in 5 more minutes without consequences. -_-
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On December 14 2011 21:28 Noocta wrote:
It's sad because if Naniwa knew it would have been such a mess, he probably would just 4gate him and lose in 5 more minutes without consequences. -_-
Naniwa has lived there for quite a while so I don't feel that ignorance is an excuse for Naniwa, but yes I do agree that if he knew it'd come to this, he would have just 4 gated.
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On December 14 2011 21:27 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:14 Soma.bokforlag wrote:On December 14 2011 21:10 NHY wrote:On December 14 2011 21:07 zeru wrote:On December 14 2011 21:05 iky43210 wrote:On December 14 2011 21:03 Eury wrote:
It is bad when you wish for KeSPA back. Hopefully if the BW stars switches over it would most likely mean that GOMTV's monopoly in Korea has ended, if they don't, well, SC2 will die in Korea and GSL with it. Good riddance to the latter. what? if it was Kespa, Naniwa would've been banned for life. It's more about that Kespa has the rules written down and don't keep making things up for everything, which this thread is about. If there had been rules which naniwa broke i dont think anyone would actually be on naniwas side of what he did. There is a rule. Basically, you are supposed to be professional. do you really buy that? "you are supposed to be professional"? what does that entail? if players do sloppy plays and miss micro because the game doesnt matter, isnt that unprofessional? this is such a fine line, you might as well have a rule "players have to be 100% motivated for every game, otherwise you may at any point be banned from the league for being considered unprofessional" I know It is vague, just like everything else in real life.
Which causes massive uproars.... protests....
Indefinite detention act...?
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On December 14 2011 21:27 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:21 Azzur wrote:
However, yeah, not turning up for group selection, banned for 2 seasons seem so extreme. I think the rules GOM has is not illogical however, the punishments they give out never seem to fit the crime. rain got a ban for calling GOM the same day group selections were telling them he is giving up his code S spot since they couldnt replace him. yet idra wasnt replaced either when he left. a bit different situations yet similar at the same time, but opposite reactions to them.
Idra gave them many weeks prior notice. They even had time to create a going away video. There is a world of difference here.
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On December 14 2011 21:26 aussiesanga wrote:
Sen got his place from WCG. So no favoritism.
Look i'm sure there's some loose 'Code of Conduct' that GOM has in place, which definitely needs to be set in stone with clear ramifications if players get out of hand. Plus they should actively work on briefing foreign players with these rules so they are clear that if they get out of hand these spots will not be handed out so freely.
what? seriously?
finishing 4th in the first group segment, placing someting like place 30 out of 56 players gives you a free seed to code s?!
edit. sorry. you were probably ironic? internet is hard 
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On December 14 2011 21:26 ooni wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:21 Azzur wrote:
GOM doesn't just make arbitrary rules:
- Choya was banned from the GSTL for playing rock-scissors-paper on the Blizzard ladder.
- Rain was banned from GSL for 2 seasons.
- Coca forfeited his Code S spot.
The punishment was harsh, yes, but it shows that GOM will not tolerate poor behaviour. Coca was not forced to do it. However, yeah, not turning up for group selection, banned for 2 seasons seem so extreme. I think the rules GOM has is not illogical however, the punishments they give out never seem to fit the crime.
I don't really think Rain should be a factor in this discussion at all
The whole Rain situation was akin to slamming the door on your ex as she's walking out it
You know she's never coming back anyway but you're just trying to make a statement
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for the love of god , I really wish that i don't have to post in regard of this matter but i felt like i need to reiterate this comment "professional gamer, being required to be professional".
Even MC knew that what Naniwa did is messed up.
For all of you who says that is hypocritical of GOM and some players, I really wonder how old you guys are and have you even ever hold a job.
When its your job its sometime sucked BUT YOU DO IT ANYWAY.
Please grow up and realize that what GOMtv doing is to punish a behavior that they deemed "unprofessional"
is it "arbitary'? yes
and GUESS WHAT it always arbitrary even in the justice system get a shitty judge and you are screwed
Making rules whenever they want? that's what you(government cooperation, ect) DO when there is no rule but you felt that there is a need to be one , MOST LAW ARE PASSED THIS WAY
Please understand how the real world works.
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Just as a comparison... how often do you hear of MLG making a controversial decision? How many times has Sundance bashed on a player? How many players question MLG's rules?
The only thing that comes to mind is when Catz was auto forfeited when he was 10 minutes late for his match. Maybe when they were thinking of having MLG jerseys.... open bracket is kind of grueling...
It just seems silly. Obviously GOM has control issues.
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As far as I know, the invites were always up to GOM. And as for criteria, many tournaments have invites where there is no clear cut requirement. MLG has korean invites, IEM, Dreamhack, Homestory... Actually, there aren't that many major tournaments which have NO invites at all. And there is no points system where the highest rank players get invited.
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On December 14 2011 21:27 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:14 Soma.bokforlag wrote:On December 14 2011 21:10 NHY wrote:On December 14 2011 21:07 zeru wrote:On December 14 2011 21:05 iky43210 wrote:On December 14 2011 21:03 Eury wrote:
It is bad when you wish for KeSPA back. Hopefully if the BW stars switches over it would most likely mean that GOMTV's monopoly in Korea has ended, if they don't, well, SC2 will die in Korea and GSL with it. Good riddance to the latter. what? if it was Kespa, Naniwa would've been banned for life. It's more about that Kespa has the rules written down and don't keep making things up for everything, which this thread is about. If there had been rules which naniwa broke i dont think anyone would actually be on naniwas side of what he did. There is a rule. Basically, you are supposed to be professional. do you really buy that? "you are supposed to be professional"? what does that entail? if players do sloppy plays and miss micro because the game doesnt matter, isnt that unprofessional? this is such a fine line, you might as well have a rule "players have to be 100% motivated for every game, otherwise you may at any point be banned from the league for being considered unprofessional" I know It is vague, just like everything else in real life.
Actually most sports have pretty extensive and indepth rules as to what is or isn't allowed in game. Some rules might be open to interpetation but its usually pretty clear cut. "Being a professional" is not.
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"How many players question MLG's rules/tournament structure?"
lol, there were SO many complaints are the seeding for the Providence tournament... IMMVP didn't get in eventhough he was a champion and so forth...
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On December 14 2011 21:27 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:21 Azzur wrote:
GOM doesn't just make arbitrary rules:
- Choya was banned from the GSTL for playing rock-scissors-paper on the Blizzard ladder.
- Rain was banned from GSL for 2 seasons.
- Coca forfeited his Code S spot.
The punishment was harsh, yes, but it shows that GOM will not tolerate poor behaviour. Thats the definition of arbitrary. They do things suddenly whatever way they feel is right instead of doing what the rules say (because they dont have good rules written down) such as random code A/S invites to popular players instead of players who deserve it. They should establish a system and rules and regulation instead of having arbitrary made up on the fly "rules" Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:26 ooni wrote:On December 14 2011 21:21 Azzur wrote:
GOM doesn't just make arbitrary rules:
- Choya was banned from the GSTL for playing rock-scissors-paper on the Blizzard ladder.
- Rain was banned from GSL for 2 seasons.
- Coca forfeited his Code S spot.
The punishment was harsh, yes, but it shows that GOM will not tolerate poor behaviour. Coca was not forced to do it. However, yeah, not turning up for group selection, banned for 2 seasons seem so extreme. I think the rules GOM has is not illogical however, the punishments they give out never seem to fit the crime. rain got a ban for calling GOM the same day group selections were telling them he is giving up his code S spot since they couldnt replace him. yet idra wasnt replaced either when he left. a bit different situations yet similar at the same time, but opposite reactions to them.
Tennis tournaments have wildcards and no one complains. Western sporting events have also meted out punishment for players that show poor behaviour. Imagine a tennis tournament where a player just flat out refuses to play - I don't think that will go down too well.
Actually, I just feel sorry for Naniwa because if he just did some half-arsed attempt (e.g. proxy 2-gate, 4-gate or cannon rushed), this backlash wouldn't have happened. You can blame his poor social skills and a lack of understanding on how the world works for this.
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On December 14 2011 21:47 vthree wrote:
"How many players question MLG's rules/tournament structure?"
lol, there were SO many complaints are the seeding for the Providence tournament... IMMVP didn't get in eventhough he was a champion and so forth...
Compelling argument.
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When KESPA comes through, people are going to be begging for the generous graces of GOM.
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Yeah, GOM doesn't need to be like Kespa and have strict rules that can only hurt players. Just use common sense, jesus. This happened because it was naniwa in the booth, not because it was an unfortunate accident. I think people know deep down that what naniwa did was wrong, but they don't want to admit it so they try and find loopholes to set him free.
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I respect GOM's decision to kick Naniwa. Rules against 'unprofessional conduct' are difficult by nature to interpret, but a natural and necesary part of any competition in my opinion. I would have prefered to see Nani compete though, and hopefully he will.
Naniwa can't be expected to play his best and provide epic games after just being knocked out, but he can atleast be expected to have the common decendy to make SOMETHING out of it. Legitimate action by GOM.
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i think the OP kinda ruined the bulk of his post by bringing up nani at the end
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Korean netizens wouldn't have laughed at this, though.
I thought it was ridiculous as an American living in California. We're the furthest thing from an "honor-bound" society, and Naniwa's behavior was absurd.
There's plenty of rules in sports, but most important rulings are made per basis. This was just that.
I stayed up late expecting the Naniwa v Nestea rematch. I didn't know the format, but had someone told me beforehand, I would've actually been happy, since I was anticipating the game, no matter when/why. I actually thought Naniwa and Nestea would both be x-0 and they'd be playing for the bragging rights of who got to walk away with a perfect rec as well as the highly anticipated rematch.
The result of the Nestea v Naniwa match was incredibly disappointing. If there hadn't been a slew of good rematches after that, I'd have gone and complained.
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On December 14 2011 21:48 Azzur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:27 zeru wrote:On December 14 2011 21:21 Azzur wrote:
GOM doesn't just make arbitrary rules:
- Choya was banned from the GSTL for playing rock-scissors-paper on the Blizzard ladder.
- Rain was banned from GSL for 2 seasons.
- Coca forfeited his Code S spot.
The punishment was harsh, yes, but it shows that GOM will not tolerate poor behaviour. Thats the definition of arbitrary. They do things suddenly whatever way they feel is right instead of doing what the rules say (because they dont have good rules written down) such as random code A/S invites to popular players instead of players who deserve it. They should establish a system and rules and regulation instead of having arbitrary made up on the fly "rules" On December 14 2011 21:26 ooni wrote:On December 14 2011 21:21 Azzur wrote:
GOM doesn't just make arbitrary rules:
- Choya was banned from the GSTL for playing rock-scissors-paper on the Blizzard ladder.
- Rain was banned from GSL for 2 seasons.
- Coca forfeited his Code S spot.
The punishment was harsh, yes, but it shows that GOM will not tolerate poor behaviour. Coca was not forced to do it. However, yeah, not turning up for group selection, banned for 2 seasons seem so extreme. I think the rules GOM has is not illogical however, the punishments they give out never seem to fit the crime. rain got a ban for calling GOM the same day group selections were telling them he is giving up his code S spot since they couldnt replace him. yet idra wasnt replaced either when he left. a bit different situations yet similar at the same time, but opposite reactions to them. Tennis tournaments have wildcards and no one complains. Western sporting events have also meted out punishment for players that show poor behaviour. Imagine a tennis tournament where a player just flat out refuses to play - I don't think that will go down too well. Actually, I just feel sorry for Naniwa because if he just did some half-arsed attempt (e.g. proxy 2-gate, 4-gate or cannon rushed), this backlash wouldn't have happened. You can blame his poor social skills and a lack of understanding on how the world works for this.
A tennis player will actually be fined if it seems they weren't trying (see davydenko http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tennis/atptour/2324252/Nikolay-Davydenko-fined-for-not-trying.html). However, you can forfeit due to injury, which is what naniwa should have done.
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Why should people whine that a few foreigners have been given code A or code S spots? Wildcards are good for the game imo because they make tournaments more popular. Sure some koreans that are better might not get a spot now which may be unfair but the tournament will get more viewers too which only serves to pay the koreans that do make it..
The amount of wildcard spots being given away is very minimal still and most of them are actually deserved in some way like doing well at MLG or whatever. Foreigners have much more problems competing in GSL then koreans because they have to move there so they HAVE to give a incentive to let the players go there.
I think GOM is doing a fantastic job with their management and not bending the rules at all. Rules have to be a little vague because there are so many unpredictable situations that makes it impossible to have a rule for everything beforehand..
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On December 14 2011 21:45 gregnog wrote:
Just as a comparison... how often do you hear of MLG making a controversial decision? How many times has Sundance bashed on a player? How many players question MLG's rules?
The only thing that comes to mind is when Catz was auto forfeited when he was 10 minutes late for his match. Maybe when they were thinking of having MLG jerseys.... open bracket is kind of grueling...
It just seems silly. Obviously GOM has control issues.
Let's see....White-ra being disqualified for being late to his match...Extended series format...Seeding for future tournaments (players who kept losing in group stages yet they still had enough points to make it to the group stages for the next tournament)...so yea, there were some controversies
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GOM are entirely within their rights to kick Naniwa out but they handled it extremely poorly and look just as bad as he did IMO.
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On December 14 2011 21:49 gregnog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:47 vthree wrote:
"How many players question MLG's rules/tournament structure?"
lol, there were SO many complaints are the seeding for the Providence tournament... IMMVP didn't get in eventhough he was a champion and so forth... Compelling argument.
MLG is taking the 100% contrary approac to GOM.
Players violating rules:
They seem to basically don't rule at all and don't act at all, even when there are actual rules in place, except when you are late.
See ingame chat-swearing, the whole seeding mess and other problems... ....
That’s a very "save" way to handle things which won't hurt the tournament (and if something is so outrageous so it would hurt the tournament they could just use the rule), but also doesn't improve the players behavior and their professionalism... It's just way "easyer" to do it like that.
I mean, the missing players from the placement matches in the end? Why is there no punishment for that? Because it's easier to not punish stuff like this.
Seeindg/MLG-System problems:
"wait for next season".
Thats also an easy appraoch .
MLG mainly is/was interest into running their show, i wouldn't blame em for that but it's clearly also the "easy" way which won't change how things run and players behave.
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On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished.
You mean like when Coca fixed an extreme important game for code A seed and didn't even get a temp ban by GomTV?
Naniwa is the only foreigner who has fairly qualified for Code S yet GomTV kicks him out just because they don't like him. Players needs some security and know that they can rely on what will happen to them, you can't have the organizers just kick people out based on popularity. Or get them in, as the Idra invite shows.
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GSL has bee TERRIBLE at creating rules. I am against any retro-active rulings by creating or stretching existing rules after the fact. They have a right to do so, but it is absolutely disgusting to see that go on almost each and every time someone have a violation. One would think the biggest competition of the world could come up with a good set of rulebook.
This creates an opportunity for the league to apply double-standard as well. Mind you all who favours the Nani unseeding, Coca did not receive any bans for his premeditated match-fixing.
On December 14 2011 20:21 Superouman wrote:
If you throw away a game, you are banned. It's in the rules from the beginning of the GSL and naniwa is supposed to know the rules, there is no point to qq.
Read the ruling please. He was punished by "abusive behaviour".
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On December 14 2011 22:00 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. You mean like when Coca fixed an extreme important game for code A seed and didn't even get a temp ban by GomTV? Naniwa is the only foreigner who has fairly qualified for Code S yet GomTV kicks him out just because they don't like him. Players needs some security and know that they can rely on what will happen to them, you can't have the organizers just kick people out based on popularity. Or get them in, as the Idra invite shows.
First that had no seeding arrangement according to Mr. Chae so it is outside of GOM's jurisdiction. Second Slayers already punished him and if they didn't, most likely Gom would have too considering how tough they were on Choya and Rain.
Second, Naniwa had no seed. Providence did not have a seed.
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lol if he wasn't a brat then there wouldn't be a ruling... why the fuck are people arguing about this?
There probably wasn't any rule about forcing people to try to play the game, new flash, most players actually want to play.
Maybe GOM should write down every single rule to not be a fucking spoiled brat then people will stfu.
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On December 14 2011 22:00 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. You mean like when Coca fixed an extreme important game for code A seed and didn't even get a temp ban by GomTV? Naniwa is the only foreigner who has fairly qualified for Code S yet GomTV kicks him out just because they don't like him. Players needs some security and know that they can rely on what will happen to them, you can't have the organizers just kick people out based on popularity. Or get them in, as the Idra invite shows.
Coca suffered worse from his team, who reacted right away, giving GOM no chance to react. That's how it should've been.
Naniwa got off very lightly. His team obviously cares about money and the newly acquired contract more than competitive integrity. What should have happened is that he should've gotten kicked out of the ST house and banned from competing in any tournaments for a while.
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On December 14 2011 22:02 boxturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:00 Paladia wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. You mean like when Coca fixed an extreme important game for code A seed and didn't even get a temp ban by GomTV? Naniwa is the only foreigner who has fairly qualified for Code S yet GomTV kicks him out just because they don't like him. Players needs some security and know that they can rely on what will happen to them, you can't have the organizers just kick people out based on popularity. Or get them in, as the Idra invite shows. Coca suffered worse from his team, who reacted right away, giving GOM no chance to react. That's how it should've been. Naniwa got off very lightly. His team obviously cares about money and the newly acquired contract more than competitive integrity. What should have happened is that he should've gotten kicked out of the ST house and banned from competing in any tournaments for a while.
No, match-fixing should be punishable by commission of the competition rather than the teams. Simply because "he suffered worse from his team" doesn't mean a concurrent match ban should not be handed out.
On December 14 2011 22:02 haduken wrote:
lol if he wasn't a brat then there wouldn't be a ruling... why the fuck are people arguing about this?
There probably wasn't any rule about forcing people to try to play the game, new flash, most players actually want to play.
Maybe GOM should write down every single rule to not be a fucking spoiled brat then people will stfu.
They should be writing rules like that and define behaviours like this to be punishable offence, lol.
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Well, I don't quite like how they can ban players on whatever terms they deem appropriate for the situation. They should try to make their rule set more explicit in coming seasons.
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Well would you rather it be played like kespa where arbitary rules are taken like the law. Pause without excuse, FORFEIT, tyep anything other than GG , FORFEIT. Stream or participate in any nonsanctioned league? LICENSE REVOKED. . .
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Even team liquid has rules that can be bent according to the scenario. Read the ten commandments and basically the idea is "just don't be a douche".
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On December 14 2011 22:02 baoluvboa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:00 Paladia wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. You mean like when Coca fixed an extreme important game for code A seed and didn't even get a temp ban by GomTV? Naniwa is the only foreigner who has fairly qualified for Code S yet GomTV kicks him out just because they don't like him. Players needs some security and know that they can rely on what will happen to them, you can't have the organizers just kick people out based on popularity. Or get them in, as the Idra invite shows. First that had no seeding arrangement according to Mr. Chae so it is outside of GOM's jurisdiction. Second Slayers already punished him and if they didn't, most likely Gom would have too considering how tough they were on Choya and Rain. Second, Naniwa had no seed. Providence did not have a seed.
Ehm, it was a direct qualification to Code A.
Naniwa earned a Code S seed by placing in the top 3 and being the highest placing none code S player. As per their arrangement: http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/news/65291
At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows:
Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who doesn't already have Code S status.
Providence was a Pro Circuit Live Competition and Naniwa was the highest placing none code-s player. This feels like Kespa all over again, getting rid of players on a whim, inviting and giving favours to others on a whim.
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On December 14 2011 20:27 FXOpen wrote:
Answer: No
Reason: doesnt need to be cleared up.
Answer: Yes
Reason: doesnt need to be cleared up.
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Holy shit all these fanboys from Sweden (+couple other europe countries) causing a shitstorm. So many threads on this issue already and you think we need another one? I don't understand why this thread isn't closed.
From my understanding this ban is perfectly reasonable. Correct me if im wrong but its only a 1 month ban on just his S ticket. If a Korean did what Naniwa did then he would have had it x100 worse.
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On December 14 2011 22:09 T0fuuu wrote:
Well would you rather it be played like kespa where arbitary rules are taken like the law. Pause without excuse, FORFEIT, tyep anything other than GG , FORFEIT. Stream or participate in any nonsanctioned league? LICENSE REVOKED. . .
Well, this case makes me understand Kespa.
You guys are defending a professional player that willignly lost an aired game in the most obvious way possible (except killing his own untis/buildings).
If you can't ban a player for such behaviour, for what should you ban a player then?
The actually sad thing is the love that Naniwa got after his MLG Dallas run thru, in large parts, " very questionable" opposition. He was not liked or actually plain hated by the community before that, he was kicked out of leagues, some online cups back then probably had more downtime than aired playtime because Naniwa did not feel like plaining "right now"...... ... Just because he had a good result you guys jumped on the "lovetrain".
Pathetic.
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Sweden62 Posts
You are really hitting the nail on its head here, gsl is becoming a popularity contest, great post!
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On December 14 2011 21:52 Crushinator wrote:
I respect GOM's decision to kick Naniwa. Rules against 'unprofessional conduct' are difficult by nature to interpret, but a natural and necesary part of any competition in my opinion. I would have prefered to see Nani compete though, and hopefully he will.
Naniwa can't be expected to play his best and provide epic games after just being knocked out, but he can atleast be expected to have the common decendy to make SOMETHING out of it. Legitimate action by GOM.
lol i keep seeing this over and over but never any reasoning or argument.
So why? Why should he be expected to play out a meaningless game? There is no difference what so ever between a cannon rush (or any early game all-in) or this game. Either way he doesn't care about the results and just want to get it over with as fast a possible. Unless you want him to do it for the illusion that you've seen a real game.
On December 14 2011 21:53 boxturtle wrote:
Korean netizens wouldn't have laughed at this, though.
I thought it was ridiculous as an American living in California. We're the furthest thing from an "honor-bound" society, and Naniwa's behavior was absurd.
There's plenty of rules in sports, but most important rulings are made per basis. This was just that.
I stayed up late expecting the Naniwa v Nestea rematch. I didn't know the format, but had someone told me beforehand, I would've actually been happy, since I was anticipating the game, no matter when/why. I actually thought Naniwa and Nestea would both be x-0 and they'd be playing for the bragging rights of who got to walk away with a perfect rec as well as the highly anticipated rematch.
The result of the Nestea v Naniwa match was incredibly disappointing. If there hadn't been a slew of good rematches after that, I'd have gone and complained.
ehh, the argument is that there is a culture difference that naniwa should be respecting. You're post actually idicates that it is not a culture difference. You are not arguing for the naniwa ban, you are arguing against it without knowing it lol.
Yeah, it was disappointing, why should players get banned for supplying disappointing games? You admit yourself that you didn't know the format and therefore was disappointed. How is it naniwas fault that you didn't know the format? And complain to who? To gsl? Why would you complain about something naniwa did to gsl lol, unless you are saying it was gsl fault and not naniwas? less stupid here plz.
I know people love to hate naniwa, but at least come with a real argument for why he should be banned.
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More ignorant OP please. It's all about finding a foreigner that accepts the code A invite. That's why they have to go all the way to 15th place. I personally don't care that they go that far and you should think before you post such a wall of text. Emotional reactions are never good. GomTV has full right to stand up for thier audience when a player acts disrespectful. It's a privelege to compete in tournaments, not a right.
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i believe this arbitrary interpretation of rules will not happen again unless another real clown in the league of Naniwa shows up again somehow...which is unlikely to happen now.
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they didnt ban him. they didnt revoke anything either. they just arent considering naniwa anymore for this season's code s seed. naniwa can still get in by going through the preliminaries.
it would be ridiculous for them to invite naniwa based on merits after that little escapade...
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On December 14 2011 22:33 Magrath wrote:
More ignorant OP please. It's all about finding a foreigner that accepts the code A invite. That's why they have to go all the way to 15th place. I personally don't care that they go that far and you should think before you post such a wall of text. Emotional reactions are never good. GomTV has full right to stand up for thier audience when a player acts disrespectful. It's a privelege to compete in tournaments, not a right.
HAHAAHAHAH. Tennis players are grinning right now at your comment.
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If they are going to be running an international tournament they will have to be more lenient with cultural oversteps. They can't just kick people out for doing something that is against what they don't like.
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Rules are rules and should be treated as rules.
I'm ok with the ban. I'm not ok with Coca receiving no ban. It doesnt matter that he forfeited - GOM should've banned him. It's good for the integrity of a tournament. Everyone was like "Nono Coca didnt get banned he forfeited" and now suddenly "Well, Coca has no Code S spot like Naniwa".
Prior to the Naniwa incident you could argue "You will not get banned if you do X - see the Coca case".
Now it's "You will not get banned if you forfeit faster than they can ban you" and that is just shitty logic & ruling.
Idra & Sen suddenly receiving Code S spots falls into the same category for me. Am I happy for them? Yes, sure. But there's no rule which justifies it. It's purely arbitrary.
And that - dear GOM - is also very unprofessional.
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On December 14 2011 21:56 awu25 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:45 gregnog wrote:
Just as a comparison... how often do you hear of MLG making a controversial decision? How many times has Sundance bashed on a player? How many players question MLG's rules?
The only thing that comes to mind is when Catz was auto forfeited when he was 10 minutes late for his match. Maybe when they were thinking of having MLG jerseys.... open bracket is kind of grueling...
It just seems silly. Obviously GOM has control issues. Let's see....White-ra being disqualified for being late to his match...Extended series format...Seeding for future tournaments (players who kept losing in group stages yet they still had enough points to make it to the group stages for the next tournament)...so yea, there were some controversies
People complained about the rules in MLG, not MLG making arbitrary decisions, because the rules are unclear and can be interpreted however you want. They were consistent and professional, even though their rules weren't very good.
If there was a rule that you're banned for 1 month if you worker rush, this wouldn't have caused such a response.
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On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished.
*coughs*
You were saying?
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On December 14 2011 22:42 mutantmagnet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. *coughs*You were saying?
Didnt he win?
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On December 14 2011 22:41 lololol wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:56 awu25 wrote:On December 14 2011 21:45 gregnog wrote:
Just as a comparison... how often do you hear of MLG making a controversial decision? How many times has Sundance bashed on a player? How many players question MLG's rules?
The only thing that comes to mind is when Catz was auto forfeited when he was 10 minutes late for his match. Maybe when they were thinking of having MLG jerseys.... open bracket is kind of grueling...
It just seems silly. Obviously GOM has control issues. Let's see....White-ra being disqualified for being late to his match...Extended series format...Seeding for future tournaments (players who kept losing in group stages yet they still had enough points to make it to the group stages for the next tournament)...so yea, there were some controversies People complained about the rules in MLG, not MLG making arbitrary decisions, because the rules are unclear and can be interpreted however you want. They were consistent and professional, even though their rules weren't very good. If there was a rule that you're banned for 1 month if you worker rush, this wouldn't have caused such a response.
MLG also listens to complaints and re-evaluates rules whenever they feel they may be doing more harm than good.
♥ MLG!
The example being re-evaluating the rules about watching replays during a match.
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On December 14 2011 22:42 mutantmagnet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. *coughs*You were saying?
Yep Nal_rA sending his first 4 probes and harassing with them and microing hardcore while producing probes dehind is exactly the same as a-moving all your probe in the opponent base.
That's like, the worst argument you could come up with TT
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So the precedent set is that if your games aren't played well enough, they can be interpreted as an offense to the viewing audience and you can be removed from the league.
When Idra gets eliminated why doesn't the community just cry out that we were offended by his opponents playstyle, regardless of what it is? Apparently this is how rules work
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On December 14 2011 22:42 mutantmagnet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. *coughs*You were saying?
you are skilled in the art of anti-argument
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On December 14 2011 22:42 mutantmagnet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. *coughs*You were saying?
...He won with it.
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On December 14 2011 22:44 corumjhaelen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:42 mutantmagnet wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. *coughs*You were saying? Yep Nal_rA sending his first 4 probes and harassing with them and microing hardcore while producing probes dehind is exactly the same as a-moving all your probe in the opponent base. That's like, the worst argument you could come up with TT
But how can GOMTV have a rule that is based on how well a player perfoms a strat. Naniwa was tired, unmotivated and bored. If he would have done a 4gate it would not have been as good as a 4gate from say HUK in a real game.
So how do gomtv plan on making that judgment? proberush is ok if you win or micro but not if you lose and not micro?
The thing is that the crime here is that naniwa offended an opponent or audience. But with that rule, MC might aswell have offended idra or the audience at MLG with his ceremony. Koreans would call that normal and a part of esport, but fans or players outside korea might not find that amusing and actually get offended by that. So if MC would have done that in GSL would he have been punished like Naniwa for it?
Shall only stuff that koreans find offensive be punished or how is this rule going to work in the future?
Naniwa acted childish and deserved some sort of punish but this just blew way out of proportion and has caused a situation that gomtv might have serious problems with in the future.
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Am I the only person who thinks that this hurts GOM as much as Naniwa? Firstly, a huge amount of us foreigners or laughing at GOMs decision to revoke Code S. But they're missing a huge opportunity! Most Koreans hate Naniwa, and want nothing more than to destroy him and do such a bm celebration. The hype and anticipation for when Naniwa would have played next Code S would have been huge. But instead GOM is missing out on all of that...
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Haha this OP is so biased it's hardly worth responding to.
It's not Goms fault that players leave after they get their asses handed to them in Code A.
There was a rule already in place, and naniwer broke it. Live with it.
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Yes he won but people have been arguing that Naniwa should never have probe rushed as if that was fundamentally wrong in of itself. I have already stated in previous posts if you check my history that Naniwa didn't micro and there is a problem with showing no effort.
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On December 14 2011 22:42 mutantmagnet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. *coughs*You were saying?
You could actually micro workers in bw and he won the game,
You were saying?
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Anyways, Code S seeds for successful foreigners is a good thing. I think it's quite hard to have a foreigner come and stay for a while, all for a chance of qualifying for Code A. They then have to compete in a 2 month for a chance in Code S. A lot of tournaments (e.g. tennis) offer wildcards.
As for the revoking of Code S, this is neither new nor a precedent - it has happened in other sporting tournaments.
Some people say that GOM needed to write explicit rules - but this is stupid and being overly legalistic. I think it'll be too difficult anyways to spell out everything in absolute detail and we don't need to pay lawyers for this kind of thing. It's better (like they have done) to have some kind of "catch all" rule and then use their discretion.
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On December 14 2011 22:49 ronpaul012 wrote:
Am I the only person who thinks that this hurts GOM as much as Naniwa? Firstly, a huge amount of us foreigners or laughing at GOMs decision to revoke Code S. But they're missing a huge opportunity! Most Koreans hate Naniwa, and want nothing more than to destroy him and do such a bm celebration. The hype and anticipation for when Naniwa would have played next Code S would have been huge. But instead GOM is missing out on all of that...
Yes, of course it can only be a bad thing for GOM in terms of immediate viewers for the next season. However, the integrity of the game, sportsmanship, and the organization itself goes beyond the needs of catering to 1 diva who can't handle himself on stage. No single person is bigger than the game itself.
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On December 14 2011 22:58 Azzur wrote:
Anyways, Code S seeds for successful foreigners is a good thing. I think it's quite hard to have a foreigner come and stay for a while, all for a chance of qualifying for Code A. They then have to compete in a 2 month for a chance in Code S. A lot of tournaments (e.g. tennis) offer wildcards.
As for the revoking of Code S, this is neither new nor a precedent - it has happened in other sporting tournaments.
Some people say that GOM needed to write explicit rules - but this is stupid and being overly legalistic. I think it'll be too difficult anyways to spell out everything in absolute detail and we don't need to pay lawyers for this kind of thing. It's better (like they have done) to have some kind of "catch all" rule and then use their discretion.
Funny how you bring up a real world and established sport in your first paragraph, then completely ignore that in your last paragraph.
In real world sports the rules of conduct are very clear. Just as rules should be. That's the reason rules exist in the first place. Yes, sometimes it's up to interpretation and rules are more "open", but it is not good for rules to be unclear on purpose just so "we can do whatever we want". I would say it is pretty good if the players know what can or can't do, and what the punishment is when they break the rules.
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I don't think that it's a problem at all. I would've had no problem with them revoking his invite and there being no rule about it. He was disrespectful towards the tournament, why would they want him in it?
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On December 14 2011 20:21 Executor1 wrote:
they didnt event a rule, they applied a rule within their rules to something naniwa did.
Im pretty sure nestea was offended, who wouldnt be.
Naniwa doesnt have enough respect to even play out a gaame with him in a tournament hes being paid to play in ? (he got 900 dollars for last place i beleive) that aint bad for losing 4 games.
Nope, they just made this rule up.
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Have integrity or get kicked out. There really isn't any problems other than that. Naniwa with his sweedish 'i dont give a fuck' attitude won't get very far in the very respect and honour driven korea.
Compare then to Idra who in spite of his reputation has always remained very professional at the GSL.
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If they want to be internationally accepted, they can't just presume that their judgment of certain actions and how they perceive different situations will be perceived in the same way by other people or the players themselves. The only way to be fair in such a situation is to very clearly define the rules in advance (for example what is exactly meant by "disrespectful" behaviour).
Personally, I think Naniwas behaviour wasn't disrespectful, only human, on the other way, Koreans think of the IMHO very fake and forced ceremonies as emotional and not disrespectful in the slightest or didn't think it's disrespectful towards Naniwa to revoke his Code S Spot or judge him very arbitrarily because he acted in a way that didn't suit their status-quo of how eSports is handled in Korea.
This is nothing bad, it's just a different way of perceiving things and those cultural differences exist and are nothing bad, as long as you clearly define your rules and don't judge on what you might deem offensive or what fits into your description of "disrespectful".
If eSport wants to become Global and if GSL wants to keep calling themselves Global starcraft 2 league, they really need to be more open and more acceptant of other cultures and how different ppl may react different in certain situations. I just can't possibly imagine how any1 could get upset about Nani throwing a game that had absolutely no consequence at all. If they had made some sort of contract though, that treated those games that didn't matter as friendly showmatches and paid him to perform and entertain the viewers, it would clearly be sth. very different. But afaik, it was a tournament: win or go home, give your best etc. - why bother playing when you've already been eliminated?
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On December 14 2011 23:10 kickinhead wrote:
If they want to be internationally accepted, they can't just presume that their judgment of certain actions and how they perceive different situations will be perceived in the same way by other people or the players themselves. The only way to be fair in such a situation is to very clearly define the rules in advance (for example what is exactly meant by "disrespectful" behaviour).
Personally, I think Naniwas behaviour wasn't disrespectful, only human, on the other way, Koreans think of the IMHO very fake and forced ceremonies as emotional and not disrespectful in the slightest or didn't think it's disrespectful towards Naniwa to revoke his Code S Spot or judge him very arbitrarily because he acted in a way that didn't suit their status-quo of how eSports is handled in Korea.
This is nothing bad, it's just a different way of perceiving things and those cultural differences exist and are nothing bad, as long as you clearly define your rules and don't judge on what you might deem offensive or what fits into your description of "disrespectful".
This issue is 50/50 in the foreign scene, and like 95/5 in the korean scene. Please stop acting like everyone here feels what he did was okay, as most people think it was a stupid move by naniwa.
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On December 14 2011 23:06 skyrunner wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:58 Azzur wrote:
Anyways, Code S seeds for successful foreigners is a good thing. I think it's quite hard to have a foreigner come and stay for a while, all for a chance of qualifying for Code A. They then have to compete in a 2 month for a chance in Code S. A lot of tournaments (e.g. tennis) offer wildcards.
As for the revoking of Code S, this is neither new nor a precedent - it has happened in other sporting tournaments.
Some people say that GOM needed to write explicit rules - but this is stupid and being overly legalistic. I think it'll be too difficult anyways to spell out everything in absolute detail and we don't need to pay lawyers for this kind of thing. It's better (like they have done) to have some kind of "catch all" rule and then use their discretion. Funny how you bring up a real world and established sport in your first paragraph, then completely ignore that in your last paragraph. In real world sports the rules of conduct are very clear. Just as rules should be. That's the reason rules exist in the first place. Yes, sometimes it's up to interpretation and rules are more "open", but it is not good for rules to be unclear on purpose just so "we can do whatever we want". I would say it is pretty good if the players know what can or can't do, and what the punishment is when they break the rules.
I never did ignore my last paragraph - earlier in this thread, someone gave an example of Davydenko (the tennis player) who was fined for apparently not trying in his match. I'm 100% sure there will be no explicit rule which regulates this kind of behaviour, rather something like not playing in the spirit of the game. In GOM's case, there was a rule that they may disqualify a player for showing disrespect to an opponent or the audience. GOM can't just do what they want, but in this case, the rules (which are worded openly) do allow them to do so.
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On December 14 2011 23:10 darkscream wrote:
Have integrity or get kicked out. There really isn't any problems other than that. Naniwa with his sweedish 'i dont give a fuck' attitude won't get very far in the very respect and honour driven korea.
Why the deceptive name then? AFAIK its not "Traditional Korean SL".
Was it really necessary for Chae to insult Naniwa in the process?
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one of the things that can be said is what gom is running is an entertainment show and program. what naniwa did wasn't entertaining and a bad show. people are buying tickets to watch sc2 shows. not needless 'probe rushes' that ruin the audience experience. this may be interesting drama for a few times but GOMTV can't risk these kind of 'inconveniences' become a regular stuff. i think this rule or the decision to revoke naniwa's invitation is just correct.
progaming is an entertainment business you are there as long as people want to watch you sponsors only give out money as long as you can draw people doing stunts like this is bad business.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
Ignoring the Naniwa situation, what they have done with Idra, Sen and Morrow is extremely disappointing. I'm actually okay with saying that foreigners having alternative methods for qualifying for GSL (such as MLG), but it should be just that. A qualification. Randomly choosing 3 players to join the league for no reason is ridiculous.
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On December 14 2011 23:13 ikona wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 23:10 darkscream wrote:
Have integrity or get kicked out. There really isn't any problems other than that. Naniwa with his sweedish 'i dont give a fuck' attitude won't get very far in the very respect and honour driven korea. Why the deceptive name then? AFAIK its not "Traditional Korean SL"
You don't need to be a traditional Korean to avoid behaving like that. How was that deceptive?
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On December 14 2011 23:12 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 23:10 kickinhead wrote:
If they want to be internationally accepted, they can't just presume that their judgment of certain actions and how they perceive different situations will be perceived in the same way by other people or the players themselves. The only way to be fair in such a situation is to very clearly define the rules in advance (for example what is exactly meant by "disrespectful" behaviour).
Personally, I think Naniwas behaviour wasn't disrespectful, only human, on the other way, Koreans think of the IMHO very fake and forced ceremonies as emotional and not disrespectful in the slightest or didn't think it's disrespectful towards Naniwa to revoke his Code S Spot or judge him very arbitrarily because he acted in a way that didn't suit their status-quo of how eSports is handled in Korea.
This is nothing bad, it's just a different way of perceiving things and those cultural differences exist and are nothing bad, as long as you clearly define your rules and don't judge on what you might deem offensive or what fits into your description of "disrespectful". This issue is 50/50 in the foreign scene, and like 95/5 in the korean scene. Please stop acting like everyone here feels what he did was okay, as most people think it was a stupid move by naniwa.
can you even read?
I never said anything like that, but only pointed out cultural differences and differences in opinions and perception and the necessity to clearly define rules to prevent disasters like that... Srsly. learn to read man....
On the other Hand, what you throw at my face as generalizing what foreigners think about this incident, you yourself practice, even in the same sentence, before AND after you bash my comment.
And obviously you can't even do simple math, cuz you first talk about this issue being 50/50 in the foreign scene and then state that "....as most people think it was a stupid move...."
I mean? WTF?
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The big issue here though is the fact that GOMTV punish Naniwa for being unprofessional and disrespectful and then they go out in public and call him an amateur prize hunter. Now how the fuck do you punish someone for disrespect and unprofessionalism and follow that up by being so freaking disrespectful and unprofessional?
GOMTV the big company...you would expect more. I mean naniwa is a player who did what he did after a day of losses and frustration, you can understand that he did what he did. But he probe rushed, that GOMTV go out and call him that in the way the do, when they actually punish him is just horrible.
GOMTV made a complet joke out of themself and that was just patetich.
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I hope Naniwa and whoever else with similar attitude get kicked out of Korea and the scene. These people are a disgrace for progaming. I have never seen Boxer or White-Ra treating any game in public as meaningless and throwing them away like that.
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Nope, luckily they don't have arbitrary rules. I'd suggest renaming the thread to 'Nani acted like a cock and got nailed for it, problem?'
Seriously, in light of everything thats happened in esports past, how people can not think throwing matches is going to be seen as a (justifiably) big deal is beyond me. Nani acts like a 12 year old, and as such lost his code S spot. I'm glad I don't have to deal with his personality next season bringing down the overall professionalism for the league.
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On December 14 2011 23:15 Apophenic wrote:
one of the things that can be said is what gom is running is an entertainment show and program. what naniwa did wasn't entertaining and a bad show. people are buying tickets to watch sc2 shows. not needless 'probe rushes' that ruin the audience experience. this may be interesting drama for a few times but GOMTV can't risk these kind of 'inconveniences' become a regular stuff. i think this rule or the decision to revoke naniwa's invitation is just correct.
progaming is an entertainment business you are there as long as people want to watch you sponsors only give out money as long as you can draw people doing stunts like this is bad business.
Nah, the entertainment thing isn't the point at all. It's about showing respect to your opponent and the tournament by trying your best in a match.
It's not fully clear exactly what the punishment is, but I do agree with GOM that there had to be some kind of censure. Maybe putting him in the up+downs rather than Code S?
On the other hand, I don't think GOM have handled this well by attacking him personally. They could have just said, he broke the rules, here's the rule, for this reason we're not seeding him into Code S.
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Naniwa deserved every flak he is getting. would White Ra have done it? Fuck no! Just grow up Nani, you have a solid fan base supporting you
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please stop these threads...the top 5 threads in this forum is about naniwa...
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On December 14 2011 23:06 skyrunner wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:58 Azzur wrote:
Anyways, Code S seeds for successful foreigners is a good thing. I think it's quite hard to have a foreigner come and stay for a while, all for a chance of qualifying for Code A. They then have to compete in a 2 month for a chance in Code S. A lot of tournaments (e.g. tennis) offer wildcards.
As for the revoking of Code S, this is neither new nor a precedent - it has happened in other sporting tournaments.
Some people say that GOM needed to write explicit rules - but this is stupid and being overly legalistic. I think it'll be too difficult anyways to spell out everything in absolute detail and we don't need to pay lawyers for this kind of thing. It's better (like they have done) to have some kind of "catch all" rule and then use their discretion. Funny how you bring up a real world and established sport in your first paragraph, then completely ignore that in your last paragraph. In real world sports the rules of conduct are very clear. Just as rules should be. That's the reason rules exist in the first place. Yes, sometimes it's up to interpretation and rules are more "open", but it is not good for rules to be unclear on purpose just so "we can do whatever we want". I would say it is pretty good if the players know what can or can't do, and what the punishment is when they break the rules.
They aren't clear, they're just the same. Luis Suarez is currently charged with "abusive and/or insulting words and/or behaviour", it's pretty much the same as the GOM rule.
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On December 14 2011 23:25 radu_c wrote:
I hope Naniwa and whoever else with similar attitude get kicked out of Korea and the scene. These people are a disgrace for progaming. I have never seen Boxer or White-Ra treating any game in public as meaningless and throwing them away like that.
So, people react different in certain situations. Would you also ban teams in various different sporting-events that run their "B-team" in events were they have already advanced in the tournament or have been eliminated?
Or a team that is way behind and loses morality and stops trying at a certain time during a match?
Or players like Stephano, for not attending the MLG or whatever tournament, cuz he thought it wasn't worth it?
Or ppl who concede a game before every building is eliminated?
See how ridiculous your statement is, unless you're not talking about humans, but robots?
Get real - stuff like that happens, it's a part of sports actually and shows how emitionally attached players are to this game. How can you ban sm1 from your tournament, because he was utterly demoralized after a loss, especially with a player like Naniwa, who, which I've heard from various sources, absolutely hates loosing and has a hard time dealing with not performing amazing. And the last game didn't even matter!
I would've probably done sth. similar and a player like White-Ra or Boxer might've thought "let's at least give a good show", but that's just different ppl reacting to different situations?
Think about what Idra would've done in that Situation: I doub't he would've even gotten into the booth! ^^'
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I dont see it as a problem. They want professionalism in their games and they dont accept Match-fixing, throwing away games and unprofessional behavior.
What else is similar to GOMs way of dealing with things? Yes, all major sports. If you would throw a game away (in a silly obvious way) in soccer then Uefa / Fifa would step in and do something about it. Same goes if you would be involved in Match fixing ( As seen in Serie A, The highest Italian soccer league. Juventus got involved in matchi fixing and some other dirty stuff and they got demoted to Serie B).
It's just professional behavior from GOM and they want to set a standard for esport. Keep it up GOM!
Hopefully Naniwa can learn from this behavious.
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On December 14 2011 23:36 JoeAWESOME wrote:
I dont see it as a problem. They want professionalism in their games and they dont accept Match-fixing, throwing away games and unprofessional behavior.
What else is similar to GOMs way of dealing with things? Yes, all major sports. If you would throw a game away (in a silly obvious way) in soccer then Uefa / Fifa would step in and do something about it. Same goes if you would be involved in Match fixing ( As seen in Serie A, The highest Italian soccer league. Juventus got involved in matchi fixing and some other dirty stuff and they got demoted to Serie B).
It's just professional behavior from GOM and they want to set a standard for esport. Keep it up GOM!
Hopefully Naniwa can learn from this behavious.
It's something completely different if the match would've meant something... anything at all. but it didn't. It's not unprofessional, but it's IMHO rather professional and pragmatic to forfeit such a game:
- You have more time to rest
- You are less exhausted with 1 game less played on stage
- You don't have to reveal a certain strategy/playstyle
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On December 14 2011 23:35 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 23:25 radu_c wrote:
I hope Naniwa and whoever else with similar attitude get kicked out of Korea and the scene. These people are a disgrace for progaming. I have never seen Boxer or White-Ra treating any game in public as meaningless and throwing them away like that. So, people react different in certain situations. Would you also ban teams in various different sporting-events that run their "B-team" in events were they have already advanced in the tournament or have been eliminated?
This is different, It's common to use players that haven't played too much in games that doesent matter. It happends in all sports and even in the GSTL. You use players that have talent when you know that you have won the game / the game is meaningless.
The players who are playing the game, lets say it's soccer, are still trying their best to win the game. Naniwa did not do his best preformance and just threw the game away.
It's like serving purposely in the net in Tennis so you can lose the game fast. Why would you try? The game is useless. No! You always try your best and put on a show. For the audience, the sponsors, the oponent, the tournament organizer and most importently, for yourself!
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On December 14 2011 23:39 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 23:36 JoeAWESOME wrote:
I dont see it as a problem. They want professionalism in their games and they dont accept Match-fixing, throwing away games and unprofessional behavior.
What else is similar to GOMs way of dealing with things? Yes, all major sports. If you would throw a game away (in a silly obvious way) in soccer then Uefa / Fifa would step in and do something about it. Same goes if you would be involved in Match fixing ( As seen in Serie A, The highest Italian soccer league. Juventus got involved in matchi fixing and some other dirty stuff and they got demoted to Serie B).
It's just professional behavior from GOM and they want to set a standard for esport. Keep it up GOM!
Hopefully Naniwa can learn from this behavious.
It's something completely different if the match would've meant something... anything at all. but it didn't. It's not unprofessional, but it's IMHO rather professional and pragmatic to forfeit such a game: - You have more time to rest - You are less exhausted with 1 game less played on stage - You don't have to reveal a certain strategy/playstyle
if you are a normal player sitting at home wanting to continue laddering and lose the match then yeah. but if you are professional player whom people are paying to watch ... then hell no!
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I seem to have missed this I know a couple of swedes that will not be happy with this.
But has someone the game replay or a link to a vid so I can see wy exactly he was banned ?!
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On December 14 2011 23:39 kickinhead wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 23:36 JoeAWESOME wrote:
I dont see it as a problem. They want professionalism in their games and they dont accept Match-fixing, throwing away games and unprofessional behavior.
What else is similar to GOMs way of dealing with things? Yes, all major sports. If you would throw a game away (in a silly obvious way) in soccer then Uefa / Fifa would step in and do something about it. Same goes if you would be involved in Match fixing ( As seen in Serie A, The highest Italian soccer league. Juventus got involved in matchi fixing and some other dirty stuff and they got demoted to Serie B).
It's just professional behavior from GOM and they want to set a standard for esport. Keep it up GOM!
Hopefully Naniwa can learn from this behavious.
It's something completely different if the match would've meant something... anything at all. but it didn't. It's not unprofessional, but it's IMHO rather professional and pragmatic to forfeit such a game: - You have more time to rest- You are less exhausted with 1 game less played on stage- You don't have to reveal a certain strategy/playstyle
- You have more time to rest
You have more time to rest? We're talking about 5-10 min. He could have done a 4gate and it would have been okey. As long as he would have done something reasonable.
- You are less exhausted with 1 game less played on stage
It's not a physical sport, it's a mental sport yes. But if Naniwa would have done a 2 proxy gate, cannon rush, 4 gate it would not have been exhausting for him. It would have been a valid strategy, a cheesy one yes, but still a valid one. You always put up a fight in a game. Even though it can be in a gimmicky way.
- You don't have to reveal a certain strategy/playstyle[
I dont think I need to answer this, check previous answer
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On December 14 2011 23:36 JoeAWESOME wrote:
I dont see it as a problem. They want professionalism in their games and they dont accept Match-fixing, throwing away games and unprofessional behavior.
What else is similar to GOMs way of dealing with things? Yes, all major sports. If you would throw a game away (in a silly obvious way) in soccer then Uefa / Fifa would step in and do something about it. Same goes if you would be involved in Match fixing ( As seen in Serie A, The highest Italian soccer league. Juventus got involved in matchi fixing and some other dirty stuff and they got demoted to Serie B).
It's just professional behavior from GOM and they want to set a standard for esport. Keep it up GOM!
Hopefully Naniwa can learn from this behavious.
Oh come on with your Swedish bias !!
...
Oh wait.
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This sets an example for future pro gamers. If you are on stage and gaming, do not throw the game away intentionally. well deserved punishment
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On December 14 2011 23:45 Kerm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 23:36 JoeAWESOME wrote:
I dont see it as a problem. They want professionalism in their games and they dont accept Match-fixing, throwing away games and unprofessional behavior.
What else is similar to GOMs way of dealing with things? Yes, all major sports. If you would throw a game away (in a silly obvious way) in soccer then Uefa / Fifa would step in and do something about it. Same goes if you would be involved in Match fixing ( As seen in Serie A, The highest Italian soccer league. Juventus got involved in matchi fixing and some other dirty stuff and they got demoted to Serie B).
It's just professional behavior from GOM and they want to set a standard for esport. Keep it up GOM!
Hopefully Naniwa can learn from this behavious.
Oh come on with your Swedish bias !! ... Oh wait.
As long as he's not American(Like Stephano ) (I have nothing against people from NA. just bashing France a bit)
Again, Hopefully Naniwa learn something from this. He can't keep doing this if he wants to be accepted in the professional scene.
Then again you can argue that GOM should not put up matches that are meaningless....
Gom could have added a 100$ price to the winner of the game, they could have given GSL points for the ranking or w/e...
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On December 14 2011 20:16 Candide wrote:
Lets take into consideration the most recent game ruining claims..
Choya Ladder fixing
Byun/Coca conspiracy to push ESV to a game 3 when coca won 2-0
What happened to them
Yes.... arbitrary popularity contests..
They broke rules that were there..... matchfixing and ladder rules.
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uh, why are people comparing this to coca. that dude lost on purpose to get his friend ahead in a tournament (matchfixing).
naniwa/nestea's match was pretty much exhibition game at that point.
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completely agree with OP
gom is just being as unprofessional about this as they possibly can which is not helping e-sports the way they want it to
they want to make everything super-professional but invite their players completely randomly instead of just holding qualifiers like 1 US and 1 in EU or something like that and they ban players because of bad behaviour and making complete nonsense rules just to be professional when it really only would be professional if they had something like this stated publicly so that everyone knows he will get punished if he does shit and if he does it anywas he'll get banned
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There's no defending Naniwa's actions. He got what he deserved.
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On December 14 2011 23:32 ninjamyst wrote:
please stop these threads...the top 5 threads in this forum is about naniwa...
You angry?
You can't stop hundreds/thousands ppl who don't like his action
Same goes to who support him.
What all need to understand is there was a culture/dogma/hidden rule in SC that Nani has broken in KR when he throws away that match
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No GOMTV Rocks,Naniwa is just a spoiled brat.Even tho Stephano admited to be a money grabber,atleast he always plays entertaining matches for his fans.Naniwa disregards not only his fans but GOM,Mr. Chae that always puts up wonderful tournaments featuring the best players in the world,his team,and the all the fans of starcraft that were tuned in to see a great revenge match and the foreign community.How can E-sports be considered mainstream when we have such childish people involved in it?It's totally unnaceptable and damaging to the foreign community.
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correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought this is a thread about GOM rules and how exactly foreigners get place in code a/s, not about the recent naniwa thing...
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Hero clearly throwing his game, which actually affected the chances of players moving on - completely fine?
Naniwa throwing a game that didn't matter - punishment?
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On December 14 2011 23:32 Keyboard Warrior wrote:
Naniwa deserved every flak he is getting. would White Ra have done it? Fuck no! Just grow up Nani, you have a solid fan base supporting you
When in doubt, ask yourself: What would White-Ra do?
I like it.
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On December 14 2011 23:54 Kotreb wrote:
correct me if i'm wrong, but i thought this is a thread about GOM rules and how exactly foreigners get place in code a/s, not about the recent naniwa thing...
You're not wrong, emotion sometime beat purpose/rule.
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Edit: should go in the other thread.
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On December 14 2011 20:18 greatboy wrote:
OP from Sweden.
Disagree.
stupidity rockz
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On December 14 2011 21:19 Velr wrote:
You don't see football clubs that our allready out of the championship kicking the ball willingly in their own goal or just sit at the sidelines for 90 minutes just because they allready lost.
This needs to be addressed right now:
Did Naniwa kill his own probes? No? Then what he did is in NO WAY comparable to kicking goals into his own net.
Did Naniwa let his probes stand idle until NesTea killed them off? No? Then what he did is in NO WAY comparable to sitting on the sidelines for the entire game.
What he did is comparable to putting almost zero effort into the game, which happens ALL THE TIME in professional sports. You people need to STOP comparing this to things that it is clearly not even close to being. It does not help your position at all.
edit: to the OP: absolutely. Arbitrariness is the bane of all organized sports. You need set, specific rules that are always enforced the same way or competition is a farce. GSL has proven themselves to be a farce, as of now. Hopefully they can fix this, and soon.
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General rules like "don't do stupid stuff" require 1) a flawless authority and 2) that everyone knows what "stupid stuff" means.
I don't know enough about the Korean esport culture to know if it's 1 or 2 that failed in the nani drama but from what I read this far I would guess it's a mix of both.
It is a popularity contest to a degree, they gave Idra code S for example which is understandable, especially in Idras case since they will probably make a lot of money on it.
But when it comes to enforcing rules it shouldn't be a popularity contest and I'm a bit worried that it is/will be without at least somewhat clear rules.
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On December 14 2011 23:59 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:19 Velr wrote:
You don't see football clubs that our allready out of the championship kicking the ball willingly in their own goal or just sit at the sidelines for 90 minutes just because they allready lost. This needs to be addressed right now: Did Naniwa kill his own probes? No? Then what he did is in NO WAY comparable to kicking goals into his own net. Did Naniwa let his probes stand idle until NesTea killed them off? No? Then what he did is in NO WAY comparable to sitting on the sidelines for the entire game. What he did is comparable to putting almost zero effort into the game, which happens ALL THE TIME in professional sports. You people need to STOP comparing this to things that it is clearly not even close to being. It does not help your position at all.
I recall many sports players and teams playing until the end of a game pretty hard even if they're down by a score that wouldn't permit them to easily even the odds.
They don't get paid to throw away the opportunity to provide entertainment.
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On December 15 2011 00:00 stevarius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 23:59 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:On December 14 2011 21:19 Velr wrote:
You don't see football clubs that our allready out of the championship kicking the ball willingly in their own goal or just sit at the sidelines for 90 minutes just because they allready lost. This needs to be addressed right now: Did Naniwa kill his own probes? No? Then what he did is in NO WAY comparable to kicking goals into his own net. Did Naniwa let his probes stand idle until NesTea killed them off? No? Then what he did is in NO WAY comparable to sitting on the sidelines for the entire game. What he did is comparable to putting almost zero effort into the game, which happens ALL THE TIME in professional sports. You people need to STOP comparing this to things that it is clearly not even close to being. It does not help your position at all. I recall many sports players and teams playing until the end of a game pretty hard even if they're down by a score that wouldn't permit them to easily even the odds. They don't get paid to throw away the opportunity to provide entertainment.
As do I, and we all love those teams so super much. But they still don't win and all of their effort was still entirely meaningless to anyone but them. If Nani didn't care about the game then him putting in effort would be entirely meaningless, even to him. It would be more offensive to the fans, the tournament, and his opponent to pretend that he cares.
They should have let him forfeit the match. The fact that they didn't is flabbergasting to me.
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holy batman. is it so hard to understand the whole situation ?
said it before, you just cant do things like that. for all kids and other pro's its just " a game where nothing was on stake" but there is a buiseness behind this. that is what everyone wants for esports.
guess why the people you namen in the OP played in korea, right. because someone paid for everything. because its a effing buiseness thing. not just " who's the sickest nerd baller"
so complain about rules --> grow up
complain about gom.tv -> grow up
you want a career in esports, you want esports to be taken seriously, stop acting like a child.
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On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished.
A korean did something more serious than this once, he threw a game that mattered to help the guy he was playing against. I cant remember the player right now, but he lost his gsl spot. This is much more minor. That player though is far from finished.
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On December 14 2011 22:41 Zocat wrote:
Rules are rules and should be treated as rules.
I'm ok with the ban. I'm not ok with Coca receiving no ban. It doesnt matter that he forfeited - GOM should've banned him. It's good for the integrity of a tournament. Everyone was like "Nono Coca didnt get banned he forfeited" and now suddenly "Well, Coca has no Code S spot like Naniwa".
Prior to the Naniwa incident you could argue "You will not get banned if you do X - see the Coca case".
Now it's "You will not get banned if you forfeit faster than they can ban you" and that is just shitty logic & ruling.
Idra & Sen suddenly receiving Code S spots falls into the same category for me. Am I happy for them? Yes, sure. But there's no rule which justifies it. It's purely arbitrary.
And that - dear GOM - is also very unprofessional.
coca is not allowed to return to GSL until his team and GOM both agrees that he is ready as a player. That is the same as being banned for indefinitely, far worse than naniwa...
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On December 15 2011 00:03 Latty wrote:
holy batman. is it so hard to understand the whole situation ?
said it before, you just cant do things like that. for all kids and other pro's its just " a game where nothing was on stake" but there is a buiseness behind this. that is what everyone wants for esports.
guess why the people you namen in the OP played in korea, right. because someone paid for everything. because its a effing buiseness thing. not just " who's the sickest nerd baller"
so complain about rules --> grow up
complain about gom.tv -> grow up
you want a career in esports, you want esports to be taken seriously, stop acting like a child.
Perfectly said. The competition is held in Korea, if dishonorable acts are less-tolerated over there than players like Nani should cop the consequences on the chin.. especially after doing something as childish as that. Just look at the Korean players' reaction, they were disgusted, frustrated and felt cheated; which they should be. Just because you guys find it less wrong because of an 'average' tournament format doesn't excuse the poor sportsmanship Nani showed.
Sick of simple minded kids on these forums spouting crap without taking every bit of context into consideration.
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No on is complaining that the rules are unfair. We are complaining that the rules are arbitrary and have been abused. Big fucking difference.
So apparently GOMTV can do no wrong?
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Invites are just that, invites. I don't need to invite you to my party if I don't want to, regardless of your popularity with me, my friends, etc. We can expect and hope that they invite the best of the best, but maybe their opinion of the best of the best is different from ours, and so they're inviting popular players, or players they feel their country's players will destroy.
They invite who they want, when they want, and just like every other invite tournament, the player can either make it or not.
This is not hurting eSports, it's the same EXACT stuff every other invite tournament does. Why did the Zowie girls that were invited get invited? Why did MLG stream/cast a Losira vs Diamond player game? They have their reasons, arbitrary or not this is what they decided to do and seeing as this is their business, we can't really touch it reasonably, imo.
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Q: Is GOMs arbitrary rules becoming a problem?
A: No, the problem is childish behavior and total lack of respect to anyone (spectators/sponsors/production crew ect.) by one of the players.
I support GOM on this, if we all want e-sport to grow and prosper as main-stream sport one day, we need professionalism not this.
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United States22883 Posts
On December 14 2011 23:59 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:19 Velr wrote:
You don't see football clubs that our allready out of the championship kicking the ball willingly in their own goal or just sit at the sidelines for 90 minutes just because they allready lost. This needs to be addressed right now: Did Naniwa kill his own probes? No? Then what he did is in NO WAY comparable to kicking goals into his own net. Did Naniwa let his probes stand idle until NesTea killed them off? No? Then what he did is in NO WAY comparable to sitting on the sidelines for the entire game. What he did is comparable to putting almost zero effort into the game, which happens ALL THE TIME in professional sports. You people need to STOP comparing this to things that it is clearly not even close to being. It does not help your position at all.
No, it doesn't. He a-moved probes across the map and didn't touch them. You DO NOT see teams, even b teams, putting in as little effort as Naniwa did. Even in preseason games, they play harder than Naniwa did. As a player, he was essentially idle.
While the OP has some points, it's also full of a bunch of terrible assertions that the OP is in no position to make. The decision is only because of netizen reactions?
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On December 15 2011 00:00 stevarius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 23:59 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:On December 14 2011 21:19 Velr wrote:
You don't see football clubs that our allready out of the championship kicking the ball willingly in their own goal or just sit at the sidelines for 90 minutes just because they allready lost. This needs to be addressed right now: Did Naniwa kill his own probes? No? Then what he did is in NO WAY comparable to kicking goals into his own net. Did Naniwa let his probes stand idle until NesTea killed them off? No? Then what he did is in NO WAY comparable to sitting on the sidelines for the entire game. What he did is comparable to putting almost zero effort into the game, which happens ALL THE TIME in professional sports. You people need to STOP comparing this to things that it is clearly not even close to being. It does not help your position at all. I recall many sports players and teams playing until the end of a game pretty hard even if they're down by a score that wouldn't permit them to easily even the odds. They don't get paid to throw away the opportunity to provide entertainment.
Trying to make a come back in a game that you're currently down in is not even remotely similar to not trying in a game that means nothing.
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On December 15 2011 00:11 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 23:59 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:On December 14 2011 21:19 Velr wrote:
You don't see football clubs that our allready out of the championship kicking the ball willingly in their own goal or just sit at the sidelines for 90 minutes just because they allready lost. This needs to be addressed right now: Did Naniwa kill his own probes? No? Then what he did is in NO WAY comparable to kicking goals into his own net. Did Naniwa let his probes stand idle until NesTea killed them off? No? Then what he did is in NO WAY comparable to sitting on the sidelines for the entire game. What he did is comparable to putting almost zero effort into the game, which happens ALL THE TIME in professional sports. You people need to STOP comparing this to things that it is clearly not even close to being. It does not help your position at all. No, it doesn't. He a-moved probes across the map and didn't touch them. You DO NOT see teams, even b teams, putting in as little effort as Naniwa did. Even in preseason games, they play harder than Naniwa did. As a player, he was essentially idle. While the OP has some points, it's also full of a bunch of terrible assertions that the OP is in no position to make. The decision is only because of netizen reactions?
You can argue all day about how much effort he did or didn't put in as opposed to how much effort other do or don't put in. But it is all elementary. We all have seen professionals putting in nowhere near enough effort to win. If you want to call one situation of "I don't give a crap" better than another because in one the guy happened to put in more effort at HIDING the fact that he wasn't putting in any effort to WIN, than I find that to be hypocritical.
I can totally see where he is coming with the assertion that this is based on bandwagon reactions by GOM. Do you really think if everyone thought it was brilliant and hilarious that they would have not only banned the guy, but would have insulted him personally? No. I seriously doubt that they would. Maybe I'm wrong though... never know these days.
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This isn't about big cultural differences! If someone pays you to do something and you do a terrible job, you don't get hired back. GOM paid Naniwa to play games, and is selling those games to a paying audience. It's how they make business. Naniwa did a deliberately half-assed job. He literally did his best to avoid fulfilling his job description, in the most flamboyant way possible. It's lucky for him that he's not permanently banned.
It was equally unprofessional to call Naniwa a mercenary --- but the suspension itself is more than warranted.
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In the ESL there was a recent "problem" with match fixing both the players got thrown out of Code S and out of tournaments for a long time....
Now lets see...Naniwa got his Code S seed revoked...he isn't banned from the league...he is revoked from Code S this season
So...it seems like they went a little easy on him
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On December 15 2011 00:22 HuKPOWA wrote:
In the ESL there was a recent "problem" with match fixing both the players got thrown out of Code S and out of tournaments for a long time....
Now lets see...Naniwa got his Code S seed revoked...he isn't banned from the league...he is revoked from Code S this season
So...it seems like they went a little easy on him
Nani didn't fix any matches though. He just tried a really bad build that completely failed.
Whether he had almost no chance of winning or not is irrelevant.
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On December 15 2011 00:23 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:22 HuKPOWA wrote:
In the ESL there was a recent "problem" with match fixing both the players got thrown out of Code S and out of tournaments for a long time....
Now lets see...Naniwa got his Code S seed revoked...he isn't banned from the league...he is revoked from Code S this season
So...it seems like they went a little easy on him Nani didn't fix any matches though. He just tried a really bad build that completely failed. Whether he had almost no chance of winning or not is irrelevant.
When you throw a game...which Naniwa admitted to, it takes all the professionalism away from Naniwa no matter how hard he worked to get his Code S spot...he would probably do the same exact thing in GSL Code S if he was in the bottom of his gorup
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On December 15 2011 00:15 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:11 Jibba wrote:On December 14 2011 23:59 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:On December 14 2011 21:19 Velr wrote:
You don't see football clubs that our allready out of the championship kicking the ball willingly in their own goal or just sit at the sidelines for 90 minutes just because they allready lost. This needs to be addressed right now: Did Naniwa kill his own probes? No? Then what he did is in NO WAY comparable to kicking goals into his own net. Did Naniwa let his probes stand idle until NesTea killed them off? No? Then what he did is in NO WAY comparable to sitting on the sidelines for the entire game. What he did is comparable to putting almost zero effort into the game, which happens ALL THE TIME in professional sports. You people need to STOP comparing this to things that it is clearly not even close to being. It does not help your position at all. No, it doesn't. He a-moved probes across the map and didn't touch them. You DO NOT see teams, even b teams, putting in as little effort as Naniwa did. Even in preseason games, they play harder than Naniwa did. As a player, he was essentially idle. While the OP has some points, it's also full of a bunch of terrible assertions that the OP is in no position to make. The decision is only because of netizen reactions? You can argue all day about how much effort he did or didn't put in as opposed to how much effort other do or don't put in. But it is all elementary. We all have seen professionals putting in nowhere near enough effort to win. If you want to call one situation of "I don't give a crap" better than another because in one the guy happened to put in more effort at HIDING the fact that he wasn't putting in any effort to WIN, than I find that to be hypocritical. I can totally see where he is coming with the assertion that this is based on bandwagon reactions by GOM. Do you really think if everyone thought it was brilliant and hilarious that they would have not only banned the guy, but would have insulted him personally? No. I seriously doubt that they would. Maybe I'm wrong though... never know these days.
Sorry mate but you seem to lack basic understanding of the situation. If Naniwas actions had not been so offensive there would be no outrage over them, ergo Gom would not react to them (or need to react even).
His play WAS so offensive that a majority of the Koreans and a fairly significant amount of people worldwide were up in arms about it (as evidenced by the heated debate over here as well).
If you want to bring faulty analogies into it, let me offer you one more: in a completly meaningless game (post-season, play off spots fixed and both sides playing already out of it) one side brings their B lineup to give them experience (what most people say Nani should have done) while the other side get's out on the field, kicks the ball once in the direction of the other sides goal and then sits down and has a rest (what Naniwa has done). What exactly is the league supposed to say to such behaviour? Can there be any other reaction than heavy fines/sanctions if they want to present a professional image?
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On December 15 2011 00:22 HuKPOWA wrote:
In the ESL there was a recent "problem" with match fixing both the players got thrown out of Code S and out of tournaments for a long time....
Now lets see...Naniwa got his Code S seed revoked...he isn't banned from the league...he is revoked from Code S this season
So...it seems like they went a little easy on him
In the ESV Korean Weekly, not the ESL. Just a slight correction.
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I think its similar to how MLG picks the korean invites? Contact a bunch of players and go down the list as the top reject it, behind closed doors. Then again I don't think there are more deserving players than both Sen and Idra results wise, that are willing to stay and spend time in Korea. (Correct me if I'm wrong tho, but I cant think of anybody on top if my head)
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Completely GOM's fault.
When you make a shit format that allows for meaningless games like this, it's only a manner of time before something like this happens. What if the probe rusher was WhiteRa? Or Sheth? I'm sure the community's opinion would have been different if one of their beloved manner players ragequit.
So this decision by NaNiwa forces GOM to save face and punish the apparent "disrespect", even though the game was . I certainly wouldn't have played longer than 2 minutes after losing three matches in such a close manner. If I was really pissed, I would have straight up walked out of GOM studio and went home. There's no point in playing a game that doesn't benefit me in any way, especially after practicing for 12 hours a day, 7 days a week. Do any of you idiots realize the insane effort and lifestyle being a progamer requires, and how hard they are hit after losing in game(s) that close? They blame nobody but themselves, too, because that's what the improvement mentality is all about.
By the way, shove your money up your ass because NaNiwa had every right to do what he did, and indirectly, it only happened because the Koreans made a mistake. To make things worse, they remedied their error with... another dumb mistake. Many of you don't have half the character NaNiwa does, and him tossing a meaningless game is not a reason for people to start FIVE threads discussing the nuances of it.
This is why I don't watch GSL.
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United States22883 Posts
On December 15 2011 00:15 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:11 Jibba wrote:On December 14 2011 23:59 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:On December 14 2011 21:19 Velr wrote:
You don't see football clubs that our allready out of the championship kicking the ball willingly in their own goal or just sit at the sidelines for 90 minutes just because they allready lost. This needs to be addressed right now: Did Naniwa kill his own probes? No? Then what he did is in NO WAY comparable to kicking goals into his own net. Did Naniwa let his probes stand idle until NesTea killed them off? No? Then what he did is in NO WAY comparable to sitting on the sidelines for the entire game. What he did is comparable to putting almost zero effort into the game, which happens ALL THE TIME in professional sports. You people need to STOP comparing this to things that it is clearly not even close to being. It does not help your position at all. No, it doesn't. He a-moved probes across the map and didn't touch them. You DO NOT see teams, even b teams, putting in as little effort as Naniwa did. Even in preseason games, they play harder than Naniwa did. As a player, he was essentially idle. While the OP has some points, it's also full of a bunch of terrible assertions that the OP is in no position to make. The decision is only because of netizen reactions? You can argue all day about how much effort he did or didn't put in as opposed to how much effort other do or don't put in. But it is all elementary. We all have seen professionals putting in nowhere near enough effort to win. If you want to call one situation of "I don't give a crap" better than another because in one the guy happened to put in more effort at HIDING the fact that he wasn't putting in any effort to WIN, than I find that to be hypocritical.
A 6 pool is an aggressive move that's still capable of winning. A fucking OSL was won with a 5 pool. A probe rush without micro is a 0% maneuver. It will not work, even against a Gold player who counter a-moves. Naniwa's probably did no more than 5 or 10 actions the entire game.
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On December 15 2011 00:29 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 00:15 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:On December 15 2011 00:11 Jibba wrote:On December 14 2011 23:59 MasterBlasterCaster wrote:On December 14 2011 21:19 Velr wrote:
You don't see football clubs that our allready out of the championship kicking the ball willingly in their own goal or just sit at the sidelines for 90 minutes just because they allready lost. This needs to be addressed right now: Did Naniwa kill his own probes? No? Then what he did is in NO WAY comparable to kicking goals into his own net. Did Naniwa let his probes stand idle until NesTea killed them off? No? Then what he did is in NO WAY comparable to sitting on the sidelines for the entire game. What he did is comparable to putting almost zero effort into the game, which happens ALL THE TIME in professional sports. You people need to STOP comparing this to things that it is clearly not even close to being. It does not help your position at all. No, it doesn't. He a-moved probes across the map and didn't touch them. You DO NOT see teams, even b teams, putting in as little effort as Naniwa did. Even in preseason games, they play harder than Naniwa did. As a player, he was essentially idle. While the OP has some points, it's also full of a bunch of terrible assertions that the OP is in no position to make. The decision is only because of netizen reactions? You can argue all day about how much effort he did or didn't put in as opposed to how much effort other do or don't put in. But it is all elementary. We all have seen professionals putting in nowhere near enough effort to win. If you want to call one situation of "I don't give a crap" better than another because in one the guy happened to put in more effort at HIDING the fact that he wasn't putting in any effort to WIN, than I find that to be hypocritical. A 6 pool is an aggressive move that's still capable of winning. A fucking OSL was won with a 5 pool. A probe rush without micro is a 0% maneuver. It will not work, even against a Gold player who counter a-moves. Naniwa's probably did no more than 5 or 10 actions the entire game.
Select workers.
Right click in opponnents base.
A-Move
It's three.
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United States22883 Posts
He had to build an extra probe too and rally it over. 
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Your post had they makings for an actual discussion but then you brought up the naniwa incident anyways my understanding with the GSL invites and MLG exchange program is that you need to apply to be in code A and by reaching X level at MLG you are given priority over people who didn't apply.
GOM is in a position where they can pick and choose what players they want to have competing since it's the biggest tournament to win if they feel like someone is going to disrespect the tournament in anyway they can and as demonstrate by naniwa will refuse to pick them.
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I think what happened is, the new way GSL works is two foreigners get invites based on accomplishment. Since Naniwa got his Code S seed revoked, IdrA took his place. Then Sen and Morrow got the two foreigner invites. Atleast that's what it sounds like to me.
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Korea deal E-sport best so far, so pls obey their rules and management. if a korean did that, he will get more pressure and punish
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IMO this is the wrong decision and reminds me of Kespa rules, but ofc this helps nothing so dunno why am I even posting lol
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The point is they just kicked Naniwa and picked two completely random people to join Code S. Code S is about having the best players in the world. Naniwa earned his spot and Idra and Sen are great players but earned jack shit.
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On December 14 2011 20:18 DystopiaX wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:16 Candide wrote:
Lets take into consideration the most recent game ruining claims..
Choya Ladder fixing
Byun/Coca conspiracy to push ESV to a game 3 when coca won 2-0
What happened to them
Yes.... arbitrary popularity contests.. Those were like actual things wrong. What Nani did was BM at best and as far as I can tell there were no rules against probe rushing in the GSL. And that still has nothing to do with how the invites are chosen. edit- @ the guy above me: then write a rule stating so. If there was a rule in place, fine. If there wasn't, then IMO it's just wrong to arbitrarily ban a guy based on public reaction.
The problem with having multiple threads on the same topic is that one thread starts discussing what the other has already covered.
For example, the bolded section. This was covered (and is in the OP) of the Naniwa Code-S seed revoked thread.
from that thread:
"Here's the rule being used as justification:
Warning or disqualification
- 경기중에 과격한 행동으로 상대 게이머나 관중들에게 위협을 가할 때
- During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours"
This isn't arbitrary. Naniwa, for reasons that are justifiable to him or not, tarnished the sanctity of the game. As a league that markets the games to their audience as the best in the world (most of that audience stays up until the wee hours of the morning might I add) GOM can not afford players just wasting games like that because they don't feel like playing.
There are dozens of players in Korea and around the world that would've killed for even the opportunity Naniwa had, and I believe GOM is in the right to dole out a punishment here.
Historically the Korean scene is pretty severe with their punishments to anything relating to matchfixing/ruining (Byun, Choya, Savior) and Naniwa should've been wiser
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On December 15 2011 00:28 HyTex wrote:
When you make a shit format that allows for meaningless games like this, it's only a manner of time before something like this happens. What if the probe rusher was WhiteRa? Or Sheth? I'm sure the community's opinion would have been different if one of their beloved manner players ragequit.
they wouldnt do something like that and if they did i would have the same opinion as in naniwas case!
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Just for the record, fuck this anti-sweden shit. Sweden is the second home of esports and theres no reason to generalize at all about this shit.
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Im glad gom did whatever they did. SC2's side of esport needs to be more professional imo.
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No they aren't. Anyone with common sense understands that on the biggest stages especially you act with maturity.
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On December 14 2011 21:11 gregnog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:06 bubblegumbo wrote:
You are stupid if you think that a professional gamer, being required to be professional is considered arbitrary. One day when you get a job that means shit and puts you in the scrutiny of others perhaps you'll understand. Act like a kid and you'll be treated like a kid, especially when it's a job. That would be like your boss telling you to take out the trash. After you are finished taking out the garbage, he then tells you to rip up some paper and throw it on the ground just to pick it up again. He is still paying you, but it is meaningless and you both know it. I know you can say that the entertainment industry is a bit different than a real job. But a real fan should not get any enjoyment out of a fake game where neither opponent is putting in 100%.
Terrible analogy. You obviously are not yet in the professional workforce.
I think the OP and many of the newer fans are too young to know what it means to be professional. You're not going to be motivated to go to work everyday and won't be able to put your best effort in everyday. However, you don't just decide to show up and not work at all.
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meh i read the whole thing expecting something smart to be said, wasted time
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Completely agree with the post, the decision made by gom is outrageous and for me makes them look like an unprofessional organisation. Make your rules before enforcing them.
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I am so mad that Naniwa got kicked out based on some dumb rule that actually doesn't make sense. abusing the audience?? are you kidding me this drama brought gom more attention!
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What gom did is not very professional. A professional organisation should have a more professional attitude. Even if one of your players is acting unprofessionally, you should be the better man by acting more professional than him.
Naniwa isn't always as professional as possible but as professionals gom should also understand that emotions run high and sometimes people don't act professional. The more professional solution would be to reclarify the rules, give naniwa a stern warning and adjust the format to make the tournament more professional.
Both made a mistake here, but as professionals maybe they can give naniwa a second chance. The subjective rules were not very clear. As a professional you cannot retro-actively punish someone.
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On December 15 2011 01:19 Paperplane wrote:
What gom did is not very professional. A professional organisation should have a more professional attitude. Even if one of your players is acting unprofessionally, you should be the better man by acting more professional than him.
Untrue.
In every sport players get punished regardless of it being their first offense. If they had banned him from GSL forever, okay, that would be a terrible decision, but every pro knows Korean culture is extremely strict, and even if it wasn't, you're playing in the GSL against Nestea. There's probably no other pro in the world that would have done what Naniwa did there, not even IdrA (regardless of his opinion on the subject, he wouldn't have done it). He'll learn from his mistake, and if he's good enough he'll make it back into Code S and prove GOM wrong for banning him originally.
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just look at him
so much for professionalism
PS: this is how he played against nestea in a televised game and this is during the game
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ispUu.png) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hh91J.png)
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has been said before, but just think one moment what would have happened if a Korean would have done that.. I think gom has every right to punish their players, though this punishment might be a bit harsh, maybe something like straight to code a matches instead of a chance to play in code s would have been more appropriate.
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On December 15 2011 01:53 JL_GG wrote:just look at him so much for professionalism PS: this is how he played against nestea in a televised game and this is during the game
Nice and consequent way to highlight how little sense such a showmatch makes from a competitive standpoint.
People who want to see fake competition should go watch wrestling.
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On December 15 2011 02:24 perestain wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:53 JL_GG wrote:just look at him so much for professionalism PS: this is how he played against nestea in a televised game and this is during the game Nice and consequent way to highlight how little sense such a showmatch makes from a competitive standpoint. People who want to see fake competition should go watch wrestling.
you're implying fake competition is acceptable, it is not. Just that being blatantly obvious about it is not being "honest", its admitting you're match fixing
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On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished.
This is true, there would be so much more of a shit storm say Clide did this after going 0-3 in his group. One where he'd probably be forced to make a statement saying he's taking a break from pro gaming.
Also what is this fake competition crap everyones on about?
The initial competition is between 2 players fighting to see who is better, the overall picture is the group standings. When you play anyone you should be trying to win regardless.
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On December 15 2011 03:48 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. This is true, there would be so much more of a shit storm say Clide did this after going 0-3 in his group. One where he'd probably be forced to make a statement saying he's taking a break from pro gaming.
Why should we care that a Korean would get sacrificed for doing this? It's their culture. Naniwa sees StarCraft as a profession not a religion. Why are they forcing their view on the player?
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Dude didn't want to play a pointless showmatch. It's up to him, he made the right choice.
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GOM can do whatever they want. Professionalism and respect is very important. In professional sports people don't just quit when they are losing or are too far behind to catch up. You owe it to the fans, GOM, and your team to continue playing.
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This would all be solved if they just stopped seeding foreigners and made them play the qualifiers like everyone else.
They could "invite" them in which they pay for their flight, and that would be good enough (since paying for your own flight and then losing in a qualifier would kind of suck.)
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On December 14 2011 20:17 red4ce wrote:
What GOM giveth, so too GOM shall taketh away. Coca and Rain lost their code S spots for 'unprofessional behavior' so it's not like we didn't know the rule didn't exist.
dont be insulting rain, as rain was never involved in such incident. Rain left under his own will to play in foreign tournaments and live with his father in new york.
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On December 15 2011 02:27 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:24 perestain wrote:On December 15 2011 01:53 JL_GG wrote:just look at him so much for professionalism PS: this is how he played against nestea in a televised game and this is during the game Nice and consequent way to highlight how little sense such a showmatch makes from a competitive standpoint. People who want to see fake competition should go watch wrestling. you're implying fake competition is acceptable, it is not. Just that being blatantly obvious about it is not being "honest", its admitting you're match fixing
Apparently someone doesn't like wrestling! Do you honestly think it's better to come out and not give it your all? It's just as dishonest man. I don't want to watch shit that doesn't matter. It's still being fake and all your doing is providing lip service. That is match fixing as well because you aren't fucking trying to win. Walking away from a match is just as bad. Professional athletes at least show up to the arena, but it doesn't mean they are going to give it their all for whatever issue they have. Professional athletes don't even act professional all the time.
People know wrestling is fake beforehand. It's nothing more than men in tights in a soap opera and the fans buy into it.
It's not a competitive sport. It has attributes that require athletics, but it isn't competitive. The competition in wrestling is, who can create the most buzz and put on a good match/show. That's the difference between getting pushed and staying on the mid-bottom card.
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On December 15 2011 03:51 Master_Blaster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:48 Denzil wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. This is true, there would be so much more of a shit storm say Clide did this after going 0-3 in his group. One where he'd probably be forced to make a statement saying he's taking a break from pro gaming. Why should we care that a Korean would get sacrificed for doing this? It's their culture. Naniwa sees StarCraft as a profession not a religion. Why are they forcing their view on the player?
Why's Naniwa in Korea if he's not going to respect their culture?
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We are still in the seat we were a year ago and GSL seems less and less professional and more and more desperate to get foreigners. Alot of players go there, compete in code a, qualify for next months tournament and then leave.. it seems like theres no planning from GSL at all.
Except that this is beyond GOM's control. Players choose whether to say in Korea or not, not GOM. If a player accepts a spot, but then decides to leave due to culture shock, or just not having enough money to stay, or whatever, that's not GOM's fault. That is simply beyond their control.
Now gom have invented a rule that lets them kick out Naniwa because they say he only wants money, and is not professional. This is completely based on the korean netizens reactions, and has nothing to do with what happened in the game.
First, no rule was "invented." They use existing rules to decide this; they have the right to choose, and they exercised that right. Whether you agree with the reasoning or not,
As for the "nothing to do with what happened in the game," please explain the definition of "professional" that includes "obviously and deliberately throwing a game away". Or the definition of "not professional" that doesn't include "obviously and deliberately throwing a game away".
Even better, name a sport when a team wouldn't be fined/punished by its league for standing around and letting the opposing team score at will. Notice that this never happens in real sports. Even in the final regular season game between teams that know they aren't going to the playoffs. Sure, they may not play their A-team members for very long. But they still are out there trying to score and preventing the opposing team from scoring. They may not be playing their best, but they are playing.
What Naniwa did was not playing. He may as well have just sat there and GG'd once the time limit on that expired. What he did had zero chance of winning unless his opponent had an aneurism at the keyboard or was a Bronze-level player.
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On December 15 2011 03:56 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:51 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 03:48 Denzil wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. This is true, there would be so much more of a shit storm say Clide did this after going 0-3 in his group. One where he'd probably be forced to make a statement saying he's taking a break from pro gaming. Why should we care that a Korean would get sacrificed for doing this? It's their culture. Naniwa sees StarCraft as a profession not a religion. Why are they forcing their view on the player? Why's Naniwa in Korea if he's not going to respect their culture?
When you go to Istambul they don't make the tourist women cover their heads, because the Muslim don't force their own view on tourist for example
Koreans wanting foreigns to act as they do is wrong. Also Naniwa shouldn't be force to play a useless game. Again, imposing their view.
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I still don't get it.
Basically this happened:
GOM:"Naniwa, we would like you to play Nestea. It might not matter, but we'd still like you to play versus him"
Naniwa:" Go fuck yourself, GOM
GOM:"Ok, next time we need someone to play a game, we will ask someone else"
Seems fairly reasonable from GOM
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OP you are jsut raging because naniwa got kicked out of code S january. But he got what was deserved, end of story, life goes on. GOM did the right move by making an example of him. From now on people will not throw a game like that in a GOM tourny.
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On December 15 2011 03:56 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:51 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 03:48 Denzil wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. This is true, there would be so much more of a shit storm say Clide did this after going 0-3 in his group. One where he'd probably be forced to make a statement saying he's taking a break from pro gaming. Why should we care that a Korean would get sacrificed for doing this? It's their culture. Naniwa sees StarCraft as a profession not a religion. Why are they forcing their view on the player? Why's Naniwa in Korea if he's not going to respect their culture?
Professional athletes do disrespectful things to other players all the time especially in the world of sport.
Soccer/Football anyone?
Not in my House?
Cannot be ignorant of other cultures, especially when SC2 is a global sport now. BW was never there and that's where there has to be some leniency.
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On December 15 2011 04:00 HoodedAvatar wrote:
OP you are jsut raging because naniwa got kicked out of code S january. But he got what was deserved, end of story, life goes on. GOM did the right move by making an example of him. From now on people will not throw a game like that in a GOM tourny.
Yeah, we will see from now on how good actors the players are.
People claiming the Naniwa vs Nestea in that context mattered and would have delivered a real showmatch are delusional .
It was like asking them to do interviews after a loss.
-Hey Nestea, Naniwa, i know you both lost 0-3, pretty humiliating BTW, but could you please try and play 100% next game? thx
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On December 15 2011 03:56 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:51 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 03:48 Denzil wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. This is true, there would be so much more of a shit storm say Clide did this after going 0-3 in his group. One where he'd probably be forced to make a statement saying he's taking a break from pro gaming. Why should we care that a Korean would get sacrificed for doing this? It's their culture. Naniwa sees StarCraft as a profession not a religion. Why are they forcing their view on the player? Why's Naniwa in Korea if he's not going to respect their culture?
Because he wants to play in the most prestigious sc2 league there is. and it just happens that you need to be in Korea for that. Seriously, Naniwa was clearly frustrated after losing three games that way and just let of his steam by doing what he did in his fourth game, not realizing that it would offend some people (inside Korea and out). Hence he got a quick slap onto the back of his hands by gom (by withdrawing an invitation), but it is nothing serious. In the future,
I hope Naniwa will be more sensible to possible reactions to his actions, while he continues his way up the GSL. He need to realize that people don't just see him as a incredibly good player, but that they also as an ideal of a non-Korean progamer and that people expect him to uphold a certain level of sportsmanship for that.
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On December 14 2011 20:18 greatboy wrote:
OP from Sweden.
Disagree.
On December 14 2011 20:21 Mojar wrote:
Your bias is showing. He deserved it.
pretty much what these two said
it's not that koreans dislike foreigners, its that this is their tournament, on their ground, with their rules, if we don't want to follow their rules (no matter how silly we think they are) then we can go back to the broodwar era of foreigners being completely divided against koreans
naniwa's lucky that they didn't ban him from the GSL
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On December 15 2011 03:51 Master_Blaster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:48 Denzil wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. This is true, there would be so much more of a shit storm say Clide did this after going 0-3 in his group. One where he'd probably be forced to make a statement saying he's taking a break from pro gaming. Why should we care that a Korean would get sacrificed for doing this? It's their culture. Naniwa sees StarCraft as a profession not a religion. Why are they forcing their view on the player?
If Naniwa saw it as a profession, then he would not have acted as he did. He sees himself as a contractor, there to do a job: win the prize. If a prize is no longer possible, he's going to get out of it ASAP.
A professional player has respect for the audience. A contractor does not. A contractor wants the cash prize; a professional player wants the cash as well, but they also respect the audience enough to give them a good show, even when it doesn't matter for getting the prize.
GOM is enforcing a standard of professionalism on players. That's all. This is the same standard that anyone competing in an actual sport would be expected to uphold: you play the game. Whether it matters or not, you put people on the field and you make some kind of effort. You don't stand there and let the opponent win.
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To state the obvious, GOM needs a whole set of refined rules, better rule-coaching for foreigners who might have different ethical standards and a BIG change to the whole seed-system which seems random at best. The whole Naniwa situation is not about ethics or at least it shouldn't be. You may determine things right or wrong from your perspective but what ultimately makes international sports viable is a common set of rules one can not simply interpret based on perceived ethics. "The player must make an effort to take every game seriously and not throw matches by not appearing, refusing to play or not actively playing when already in the game." Something along those lines and I'm by far not one to write law books. GOM has a set of rules they think common sense would complete but their interpretation of common sense is not one based 100% on winning championships as is Naniwa's mindset.
tldr: they need better rules, now.
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On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished.
Exactly this. If a Korean player disrespected a tournament/did not represent their team well it'd be the end of their career.
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On December 14 2011 20:12 Soma.bokforlag wrote:
This is completely based on the korean netizens reactions, and has nothing to do with what happened in the game
That's completely your opinion. Not fact.
it's my opinion that I applaud them because I'm sick to fucking death of the community putting up with such a piss poor standard for our players and professionals.
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On December 15 2011 04:11 Inertia_EU wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. Exactly this. If a Korean player disrespected a tournament/did not represent their team well it'd be the end of their career.
So what?
I don't want the esport to grow in an industry were you get DQ for saying "ggg" instead of "gg". Players need room to show their characters. After all we love a player more by his character than his skill.
And respect is subjective. In USA what Naniwa did would have been laughed of. In Korea we must cut his pinkie.
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On December 15 2011 04:10 Timerly wrote:
To state the obvious, GOM needs a whole set of refined rules, better rule-coaching for foreigners who might have different ethical standards and a BIG change to the whole seed-system which seems random at best. The whole Naniwa situation is not about ethics or at least it shouldn't be. You may determine things right or wrong from your perspective but what ultimately makes international sports viable is a common set of rules one can not simply interpret based on perceived ethics. "The player must make an effort to take every game seriously and not throw matches by not appearing, refusing to play or not actively playing when already in the game." Something along those lines and I'm by far not one to write law books. GOM has a set of rules they think common sense would complete but their interpretation of common sense is not one based 100% on winning championships as is Naniwa's mindset.
tldr: they need better rules, now.
You need a rule to state the obvious? You need a rule to say, "You need to play in a sportsman-like fashion"? Isn't that obvious by the fact that you're a professional gamer?
If Naniwa needs a specific rule to spell out what "be professional" means, then that says more about him as a player than GOM.
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On December 15 2011 04:00 Lann555 wrote:
I still don't get it.
Basically this happened:
GOM:"Naniwa, we would like you to play Nestea. It might not matter, but we'd still like you to play versus him"
Naniwa:" Go fuck yourself, GOM
GOM:"Ok, next time we need someone to play a game, we will ask someone else"
Seems fairly reasonable from GOM
Naniwa wasn't asked to come to this tournament he earned his spot.
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Better than KESPA. =) 
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On December 15 2011 04:15 Master_Blaster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:11 Inertia_EU wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. Exactly this. If a Korean player disrespected a tournament/did not represent their team well it'd be the end of their career. So what? I don't want the esport to grow in an industry were you get DQ for saying "ggg" instead of "gg". Players need room to show their characters. After all we love a player more by his character than his skill. And respect is subjective. In USA what Naniwa did would have been laughed of. In Korea we must cut his pinkie.
Wrong.
I'm from america born and raised.
NFL for example. Last game of regular season, a team that's already in playoffs, might take it easier sure, to avoid needless injuries.
But they would get serious backlash if they came and made a mockery of the game.
NIce exxageration with your GGG example and what not.
And cutting off pinky? That's a Japanese yakuza thing, nice ignorance.
Regarding your comment about liking a player more due to character than skill? hahaha. Ok go watch WWE. I actually like to see the best of the best in regards to skill.
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If GOM becomes a FIDE, I will cry.
At this point, far from it.
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Yes the arbitrary rules are not good. If people can buy their way into code A and code S, or the company can just play favorites on who participates in then the credibility will soon start to dwindle. There is a lot of things being said right now about GOM, good and bad, and most of it is based off of feelings and knee jerk reactions, however when people look at things objectively without emotions fogging their way things are a lot different.
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regarding the invites, they needed to me vague, because they wanted good non-Korean players in the GSL and this is the only way they can do it (plenty good players don't even participate in the MLG and a good chunk of the good players participating in the MLG don't care for Code A).
regarding the naniwa incident, the rules are vague because you cannot make crisp rules defining what is morally acceptable and what not. What is good and what is bad sportsmanship. And gom wants to uphold a certain level of sportsmanship in their event, which I like a lot.
Whether this becomes a problem... no, as long as they don't misuse the power they get from those vague rules and I don't see that time coming in anytime soon. Their financial situation isn't that good, I think, hence they really want to please the fans, which gives the communities a certain level of control over them. (at least I hope so)
does this answer the questions?
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On December 15 2011 04:00 Master_Blaster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:56 Denzil wrote:On December 15 2011 03:51 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 03:48 Denzil wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. This is true, there would be so much more of a shit storm say Clide did this after going 0-3 in his group. One where he'd probably be forced to make a statement saying he's taking a break from pro gaming. Why should we care that a Korean would get sacrificed for doing this? It's their culture. Naniwa sees StarCraft as a profession not a religion. Why are they forcing their view on the player? Why's Naniwa in Korea if he's not going to respect their culture? When you go to Istambul they don't make the tourist women cover their heads, because the Muslim don't force their own view on tourist for example Koreans wanting foreigns to act as they do is wrong. Also Naniwa shouldn't be force to play a useless game. Again, imposing their view.
FYI, when you go to Saudi Arabia, women are forced to cover their heads because the Muslim there do force their views on tourists (and men cannot wear shorts if I remember). Just because they don't do it in one place doesn't mean it doesn't exist somewhere else (as you example would make it believe).
Therefore, find a better example...
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I dont think GOMTV should be allowed to kick some1 from their tournament becouse basically they didnt like his "play" in a meaningless match
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On December 15 2011 04:15 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:10 Timerly wrote:
To state the obvious, GOM needs a whole set of refined rules, better rule-coaching for foreigners who might have different ethical standards and a BIG change to the whole seed-system which seems random at best. The whole Naniwa situation is not about ethics or at least it shouldn't be. You may determine things right or wrong from your perspective but what ultimately makes international sports viable is a common set of rules one can not simply interpret based on perceived ethics. "The player must make an effort to take every game seriously and not throw matches by not appearing, refusing to play or not actively playing when already in the game." Something along those lines and I'm by far not one to write law books. GOM has a set of rules they think common sense would complete but their interpretation of common sense is not one based 100% on winning championships as is Naniwa's mindset.
tldr: they need better rules, now. You need a rule to state the obvious? You need a rule to say, "You need to play in a sportsman-like fashion"? Isn't that obvious by the fact that you're a professional gamer? If Naniwa needs a specific rule to spell out what "be professional" means, then that says more about him as a player than GOM.
Yes, it might. It's still an issue of having very different personalities play and the whole drama, outrage etc. are spawned by GOM quoting some arbitrary set of rules. If there were a rule like that, would we have all this shit going down? If somebody told the guy before and made clear there was a rule like the one I posted, would the whole thing even have happened?
It may be disrespectful but that doesn't mean he should get his Code S (which him gaining it was a huge mess in itself btw) revoked or be punished without a set degree. You can get fined up to 1000$, fine. We decide what measures we think are approriate? I don't think so. I've been a football referee for far too long to believe in the whole people have to be decent thing and then think it's not gonna spawn bigger problems than just having those rules in.
edit: quote was lost
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On December 15 2011 04:20 ForeverSleep wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:00 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 03:56 Denzil wrote:On December 15 2011 03:51 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 03:48 Denzil wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. This is true, there would be so much more of a shit storm say Clide did this after going 0-3 in his group. One where he'd probably be forced to make a statement saying he's taking a break from pro gaming. Why should we care that a Korean would get sacrificed for doing this? It's their culture. Naniwa sees StarCraft as a profession not a religion. Why are they forcing their view on the player? Why's Naniwa in Korea if he's not going to respect their culture? When you go to Istambul they don't make the tourist women cover their heads, because the Muslim don't force their own view on tourist for example Koreans wanting foreigns to act as they do is wrong. Also Naniwa shouldn't be force to play a useless game. Again, imposing their view. FYI, when you go to Saudi Arabia, women are forced to cover their heads because the Muslim there do force their views on tourists (and men cannot wear shorts if I remember). Therefore, find a better example...
Even if he did find a better example, the Korean's aren't imposing anything,
Being a professional is universal. Naniwa participated in this tournament and the matches were scheduled. Even if the game had no meaning as he was 0-3, at the least do not make a mockery of the game.
Naniwa is just a child always was in wc3 and still is now.
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Naniwa got what he deserved.
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On December 15 2011 04:17 jj33 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:15 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 04:11 Inertia_EU wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. Exactly this. If a Korean player disrespected a tournament/did not represent their team well it'd be the end of their career. So what? I don't want the esport to grow in an industry were you get DQ for saying "ggg" instead of "gg". Players need room to show their characters. After all we love a player more by his character than his skill. And respect is subjective. In USA what Naniwa did would have been laughed of. In Korea we must cut his pinkie. Wrong. I'm from america born and raised. NFL for example. Last game of regular season, a team that's already in playoffs, might take it easier sure, to avoid needless injuries. But they would get serious backlash if they came and made a mockery of the game. NIce exxageration with your GGG example and what not. And cutting off pinky? That's a Japanese yakuza thing, nice ignorance. Regarding your comment about liking a player more due to character than skill? hahaha. Ok go watch WWE. I actually like to see the best of the best in regards to skill.
Yeah? Who do you follow on stream? Bomber or Destiny? And actually don't answer cause I don't care about you in specific, but the majority. Bomber doesn't go above 2k, like ever.
And if the NFL teams take the game easier than they don't deliver 100% of the skill, so it's an irrelevant example. why not force them to play at their best in every game?
And I wasn't exaggerating, it's what Kespa does.
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[B]On December 15 2011 04:15 Master_Blaster wrote:
And respect is subjective. In USA what Naniwa did would have been laughed of. In Korea we must cut his pinkie.
I totally disagree with that statement. Naniwa has been disqualified from a number of tournaments in his career for unprofessional behavior. What he did was clearly stupid from a career standpoint. He's not difficult to foresee that he would be punished for throwing the game and that punishment would impact his participation in the GSL. Stop trying to blame cultural differences for an act that was simply inexcusable.
Also, let's assume for a moment that there was a cultural aspect that Naniwa simply didn't understand. That the korean SC2 culture is completely different from US and Europe and what he did would've been tolerated elsewhere. That's still no excuse from a professional standpoint because part of being a professional is understanding cultural differences and adapting them when you're in a different place. If you can't understand that when you participate in GSL, you need to abide by GSL standards, then you should just pack your bags and go home since you clearly don't belong there.
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On December 15 2011 04:20 ForeverSleep wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:00 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 03:56 Denzil wrote:On December 15 2011 03:51 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 03:48 Denzil wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. This is true, there would be so much more of a shit storm say Clide did this after going 0-3 in his group. One where he'd probably be forced to make a statement saying he's taking a break from pro gaming. Why should we care that a Korean would get sacrificed for doing this? It's their culture. Naniwa sees StarCraft as a profession not a religion. Why are they forcing their view on the player? Why's Naniwa in Korea if he's not going to respect their culture? When you go to Istambul they don't make the tourist women cover their heads, because the Muslim don't force their own view on tourist for example Koreans wanting foreigns to act as they do is wrong. Also Naniwa shouldn't be force to play a useless game. Again, imposing their view. FYI, when you go to Saudi Arabia, women are forced to cover their heads because the Muslim there do force their views on tourists (and men cannot wear shorts if I remember). Just because they don't do it in one place doesn't mean it doesn't exist somewhere else (as you example would make it believe). Therefore, find a better example...
That was the point, that people don't force their culture everywhere so it's not like its a must to understand the koreans. And I don't want to change my morality based on the timezone.
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On December 15 2011 04:16 Master_Blaster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:00 Lann555 wrote:
I still don't get it.
Basically this happened:
GOM:"Naniwa, we would like you to play Nestea. It might not matter, but we'd still like you to play versus him"
Naniwa:" Go fuck yourself, GOM
GOM:"Ok, next time we need someone to play a game, we will ask someone else"
Seems fairly reasonable from GOM Naniwa wasn't asked to come to this tournament he earned his spot.
And he just unearned it. What's the problem?
On December 15 2011 04:21 Timerly wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:15 NicolBolas wrote:On December 15 2011 04:10 Timerly wrote:
To state the obvious, GOM needs a whole set of refined rules, better rule-coaching for foreigners who might have different ethical standards and a BIG change to the whole seed-system which seems random at best. The whole Naniwa situation is not about ethics or at least it shouldn't be. You may determine things right or wrong from your perspective but what ultimately makes international sports viable is a common set of rules one can not simply interpret based on perceived ethics. "The player must make an effort to take every game seriously and not throw matches by not appearing, refusing to play or not actively playing when already in the game." Something along those lines and I'm by far not one to write law books. GOM has a set of rules they think common sense would complete but their interpretation of common sense is not one based 100% on winning championships as is Naniwa's mindset.
tldr: they need better rules, now. You need a rule to state the obvious? You need a rule to say, "You need to play in a sportsman-like fashion"? Isn't that obvious by the fact that you're a professional gamer? If Naniwa needs a specific rule to spell out what "be professional" means, then that says more about him as a player than GOM. Yes, it might. It's still an issue of having very different personalities play and the whole drama, outrage etc. are spawned by GOM quoting some arbitrary set of rules. If there were a rule like that, would we have all this shit going down? If somebody told the guy before and made clear there was a rule like the one I posted, would the whole thing even have happened?
Again, why do you need a rule to tell you what being a professional means? What does it say about Naniwa that he even needs someone to spell out how to behave?
You don't take a dump on the game. It's that simple: respect the game.
Naniwa didn't, and he's being punished for it.
On December 15 2011 04:25 Master_Blaster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:20 ForeverSleep wrote:On December 15 2011 04:00 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 03:56 Denzil wrote:On December 15 2011 03:51 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 03:48 Denzil wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. This is true, there would be so much more of a shit storm say Clide did this after going 0-3 in his group. One where he'd probably be forced to make a statement saying he's taking a break from pro gaming. Why should we care that a Korean would get sacrificed for doing this? It's their culture. Naniwa sees StarCraft as a profession not a religion. Why are they forcing their view on the player? Why's Naniwa in Korea if he's not going to respect their culture? When you go to Istambul they don't make the tourist women cover their heads, because the Muslim don't force their own view on tourist for example Koreans wanting foreigns to act as they do is wrong. Also Naniwa shouldn't be force to play a useless game. Again, imposing their view. FYI, when you go to Saudi Arabia, women are forced to cover their heads because the Muslim there do force their views on tourists (and men cannot wear shorts if I remember). Just because they don't do it in one place doesn't mean it doesn't exist somewhere else (as you example would make it believe). Therefore, find a better example... That was the point, that people don't force their culture everywhere so it's not like its a must to understand the koreans. And I don't want to change my morality based on the timezone.
OK then. Name a sport anywhere that Naniwa's behavior (clearly allowing the opposing player/team to win) would have been condoned in.
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When you are invited into someone's home you don't disrespect them just cause you feel like it.
Naniwa needed to be punished, I applaud GOM for taking this extremely seriously. If Naniwa:
"WANTS TO MAKE A LIVING PLAYING VIDEO GAMES AND MAKE A VERY DECENT WAGE FOR DOING SO"
and
'GOT A FREE TRIP TO KOREA AND A PLACE TO STAY (Their rent = ridiculous) AND GETS TO PLAY STARCRAFT FOR A LIVING"
not to mention
"GOT INVITED TO A VERY PRESTIGIOUS TOURNAMENT WHICH MANY OTHER PROGAMERS WOULD HAVE LOVED TO BE IN"
And then just spits in their faces? I wouldn't even want him playing the same game as me if I was a korean progamer who invests almost all his/her time into playing a game in hopes of getting the same priviledges as naniwa. (yeah yeah caps is cool I know)
That being said, GOM's rules are there to insure that they can obtain more viewers and to make it easier for foreign players to enter into their tournament. If you had to come over for a month just to play and then get into the tournament and lose in the first round, why would you even try? You'd stay behind and enter tournaments around your own country. Going to korea is not just as easy as "show up and practice real hard bro" it's a serious investment. Anything that GOM can do to improve the foreign scene is helping esports imo. As exciting as DH/MLG/NASL can be, GSL is the top-tier competition and it's the only one used to determine who is the best really.
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He didn't break any rules, and the one they claim he did break is completely laughable.
If anything, they should have just added another arbitrary rule that prevents this.
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On December 15 2011 04:24 Master_Blaster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:17 jj33 wrote:On December 15 2011 04:15 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 04:11 Inertia_EU wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. Exactly this. If a Korean player disrespected a tournament/did not represent their team well it'd be the end of their career. So what? I don't want the esport to grow in an industry were you get DQ for saying "ggg" instead of "gg". Players need room to show their characters. After all we love a player more by his character than his skill. And respect is subjective. In USA what Naniwa did would have been laughed of. In Korea we must cut his pinkie. Wrong. I'm from america born and raised. NFL for example. Last game of regular season, a team that's already in playoffs, might take it easier sure, to avoid needless injuries. But they would get serious backlash if they came and made a mockery of the game. NIce exxageration with your GGG example and what not. And cutting off pinky? That's a Japanese yakuza thing, nice ignorance. Regarding your comment about liking a player more due to character than skill? hahaha. Ok go watch WWE. I actually like to see the best of the best in regards to skill. Yeah? Who do you follow on stream? Bomber or Destiny? And actually don't answer cause I don't care about you in specific, but the majority. Bomber doesn't go above 2k, like ever. And if the NFL teams take the game easier than they don't deliver 100% of the skill, so it's an irrelevant example. why not force them to play at their best in every game? And I wasn't exaggerating, it's what Kespa does.
what a dumb example regarding your stream watching hahha.
I guess you would rather watch destiny over MVP in a real tournament huh?
And no the NFL example isn't irrelevant.
They are still playing the game out and not making a mockery.
What naniwa did would be like an NFL team purposely throwing interceptions or fumbling or running the wrong fucken way.
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How about this new rule : Play the game given to the best of your ability so people don't question your professionalism. Don't be a little baby about it and suck it up.
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yo, i thought this topic is about rules, not what naniwa did.
so whenever a player does something, gom can say the broke some rule which has no relevance to the crime, and ban people for it.
people support that?
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To the thread owner:
Guess 99% of the posters disagree with you. Reason? No bias towards a fellow swedish player.
As far as I'm concerned, if GSL is to keep being the most competitive and respect tournament in e-Sports, the "scum" (namely ragers, fixers and bottomline unprofessional personalities) most be removed. If that means adjusting the rules so that could happen, then by all means do it.
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On December 15 2011 04:25 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:16 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 04:00 Lann555 wrote:
I still don't get it.
Basically this happened:
GOM:"Naniwa, we would like you to play Nestea. It might not matter, but we'd still like you to play versus him"
Naniwa:" Go fuck yourself, GOM
GOM:"Ok, next time we need someone to play a game, we will ask someone else"
Seems fairly reasonable from GOM Naniwa wasn't asked to come to this tournament he earned his spot. And he just unearned it. What's the problem? Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:21 Timerly wrote:On December 15 2011 04:15 NicolBolas wrote:On December 15 2011 04:10 Timerly wrote:
To state the obvious, GOM needs a whole set of refined rules, better rule-coaching for foreigners who might have different ethical standards and a BIG change to the whole seed-system which seems random at best. The whole Naniwa situation is not about ethics or at least it shouldn't be. You may determine things right or wrong from your perspective but what ultimately makes international sports viable is a common set of rules one can not simply interpret based on perceived ethics. "The player must make an effort to take every game seriously and not throw matches by not appearing, refusing to play or not actively playing when already in the game." Something along those lines and I'm by far not one to write law books. GOM has a set of rules they think common sense would complete but their interpretation of common sense is not one based 100% on winning championships as is Naniwa's mindset.
tldr: they need better rules, now. You need a rule to state the obvious? You need a rule to say, "You need to play in a sportsman-like fashion"? Isn't that obvious by the fact that you're a professional gamer? If Naniwa needs a specific rule to spell out what "be professional" means, then that says more about him as a player than GOM. Yes, it might. It's still an issue of having very different personalities play and the whole drama, outrage etc. are spawned by GOM quoting some arbitrary set of rules. If there were a rule like that, would we have all this shit going down? If somebody told the guy before and made clear there was a rule like the one I posted, would the whole thing even have happened? Again, why do you need a rule to tell you what being a professional means? What does it say about Naniwa that he even needs someone to spell out how to behave? You don't take a dump on the game. It's that simple: respect the game. Naniwa didn't, and he's being punished for it. Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:25 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 04:20 ForeverSleep wrote:On December 15 2011 04:00 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 03:56 Denzil wrote:On December 15 2011 03:51 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 03:48 Denzil wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. This is true, there would be so much more of a shit storm say Clide did this after going 0-3 in his group. One where he'd probably be forced to make a statement saying he's taking a break from pro gaming. Why should we care that a Korean would get sacrificed for doing this? It's their culture. Naniwa sees StarCraft as a profession not a religion. Why are they forcing their view on the player? Why's Naniwa in Korea if he's not going to respect their culture? When you go to Istambul they don't make the tourist women cover their heads, because the Muslim don't force their own view on tourist for example Koreans wanting foreigns to act as they do is wrong. Also Naniwa shouldn't be force to play a useless game. Again, imposing their view. FYI, when you go to Saudi Arabia, women are forced to cover their heads because the Muslim there do force their views on tourists (and men cannot wear shorts if I remember). Just because they don't do it in one place doesn't mean it doesn't exist somewhere else (as you example would make it believe). Therefore, find a better example... That was the point, that people don't force their culture everywhere so it's not like its a must to understand the koreans. And I don't want to change my morality based on the timezone. OK then. Name a sport anywhere that Naniwa's behavior (clearly allowing the opposing player/team to win) would have been condoned in.
Exactly.
What I just said regarding the NFL example.
What Naniwa did is the equivalent of literally throwing the game way by throwing interceptions on purpose etc.
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This thread is completely right.
IMO, if you want to do shit like this, have it written down, make a rule about, something like if gom suspects someone threw a game, they'll investigate, and actually have a proper punishment layed out depending on severity and what it leads to (like losing your spot in GSL)... don't get mad one day and decide to come up with a random punishment of banning someone for a rule that doesn't really exist because you disagree with his opinions and culture.
That way, even if naniwa thought it was stupid, at least he'd know the consequences beforehand. Coming up with rules and laws after incidents is fine, but they should never apply to the incident that caused them to be made, that is just common sense, you can't convict someone due to a law that you come up with mid-trial in court. As for the validity of the game, why are you forcing him to play anyway GOM? Should all 7 games of a bo7 be played even after someone has won 4? In AoL and Up/Down, do you play the meaningless games? No, both of those are stupid concepts, as is the concept of the entire Naniwa vs. Nestea match. How could you honestly expect them to take it seriously?
And how come nobody ever cared when idra threw those games away against MC at MLG? The stupid 6 pool comes to mind. And those actually mattered. Or when Stephano did it in Dreamhack? Because those strategies had a "chance" of winning, even if the player didn't give a fuck? So all of you just want to be lied to so that everything stays the perfect little way you want it to? That train of thought is really scary to me, I can't believe people can think like that. And if you claim it's supposed to be a showmatch/grudgematch/whatever, what about when Nestea said Huk tried too hard/cared too much in their showmatch and too it too seriously?
To me it just seems like a bunch of hypocritical decisions and words being spoken out of pure emotional response. I'm fine with you not agreeing with what naniwa did. I'm fine with you not liking naniwa. But what I'm not fine with is the punishment, the random rules that pop up after-the-fact, and the ban.
I honestly don't understand anyone who does agree, but I have a feeling emotion and bias due to not liking the guy is clearly surpassing logic.
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On December 15 2011 04:28 whereyouat wrote:
How about this new rule : Play the game given to the best of your ability so people don't question your professionalism. Don't be a little baby about it and suck it up.
That's the thing.
GOM and any professional organization assumes a so called "professional" would adhere to that.
Naniwa is a child and apparently he needs to be reminded he's a "professional".
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On December 15 2011 04:28 jj33 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:24 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 04:17 jj33 wrote:On December 15 2011 04:15 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 04:11 Inertia_EU wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. Exactly this. If a Korean player disrespected a tournament/did not represent their team well it'd be the end of their career. So what? I don't want the esport to grow in an industry were you get DQ for saying "ggg" instead of "gg". Players need room to show their characters. After all we love a player more by his character than his skill. And respect is subjective. In USA what Naniwa did would have been laughed of. In Korea we must cut his pinkie. Wrong. I'm from america born and raised. NFL for example. Last game of regular season, a team that's already in playoffs, might take it easier sure, to avoid needless injuries. But they would get serious backlash if they came and made a mockery of the game. NIce exxageration with your GGG example and what not. And cutting off pinky? That's a Japanese yakuza thing, nice ignorance. Regarding your comment about liking a player more due to character than skill? hahaha. Ok go watch WWE. I actually like to see the best of the best in regards to skill. Yeah? Who do you follow on stream? Bomber or Destiny? And actually don't answer cause I don't care about you in specific, but the majority. Bomber doesn't go above 2k, like ever. And if the NFL teams take the game easier than they don't deliver 100% of the skill, so it's an irrelevant example. why not force them to play at their best in every game? And I wasn't exaggerating, it's what Kespa does. what a dumb example regarding your stream watching hahha. I guess you would rather watch destiny over MVP in a real tournament huh? And no the NFL example isn't irrelevant. They are still playing the game out and not making a mockery. What naniwa did would be like an NFL team purposely throwing interceptions or fumbling or running the wrong fucken way.
Can you provide me with all the matches of NFL that have been played this year to make the statement that they don't waste the time in the game? You are just stating somethin in the air. And comparing StarCraft mathes to timed matches is weird. Naniwa didn't insta gg, he did something useless instead to lose the game.
And if the game is pointless then they can do what they want on the field as long as they respect the rules of the game.Who am I to blame them for not playing like it was the finals?
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On December 15 2011 04:33 Master_Blaster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:28 jj33 wrote:On December 15 2011 04:24 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 04:17 jj33 wrote:On December 15 2011 04:15 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 04:11 Inertia_EU wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. Exactly this. If a Korean player disrespected a tournament/did not represent their team well it'd be the end of their career. So what? I don't want the esport to grow in an industry were you get DQ for saying "ggg" instead of "gg". Players need room to show their characters. After all we love a player more by his character than his skill. And respect is subjective. In USA what Naniwa did would have been laughed of. In Korea we must cut his pinkie. Wrong. I'm from america born and raised. NFL for example. Last game of regular season, a team that's already in playoffs, might take it easier sure, to avoid needless injuries. But they would get serious backlash if they came and made a mockery of the game. NIce exxageration with your GGG example and what not. And cutting off pinky? That's a Japanese yakuza thing, nice ignorance. Regarding your comment about liking a player more due to character than skill? hahaha. Ok go watch WWE. I actually like to see the best of the best in regards to skill. Yeah? Who do you follow on stream? Bomber or Destiny? And actually don't answer cause I don't care about you in specific, but the majority. Bomber doesn't go above 2k, like ever. And if the NFL teams take the game easier than they don't deliver 100% of the skill, so it's an irrelevant example. why not force them to play at their best in every game? And I wasn't exaggerating, it's what Kespa does. what a dumb example regarding your stream watching hahha. I guess you would rather watch destiny over MVP in a real tournament huh? And no the NFL example isn't irrelevant. They are still playing the game out and not making a mockery. What naniwa did would be like an NFL team purposely throwing interceptions or fumbling or running the wrong fucken way. Can you provide me with all the matches of NFL that have been played this year to make the statement that they don't waste the time in the game? You are just stating somethin in the air. And comparing StarCraft mathes to timed matches is weird. Naniwa didn't insta gg, he did something useless instead to lose the game. And if the game is pointless then they can do what they want on the field as long as they respect the rules of the game.Who am I to blame them for not playing like it was the finals?
Waste what time in the game? I'm not stating anything from thin air.
It's really simple.
Naniwa threw the game way by throwing probes and no micro no nothing. Literally gave the game away to nestea.
That would be the equivalent of an NFL team purposely throwing interceptions or fumbling and literally giving the game away to opposing team.
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On December 15 2011 04:32 ffadicted wrote:
This thread is completely right.
IMO, if you want to do shit like this, have it written down, make a rule about, something like if gom suspects someone threw a game, they'll investigate, and actually have a proper punishment layed out depending on severity and what it leads to (like losing your spot in GSL)... don't get mad one day and decide to come up with a random punishment of banning someone for a rule that doesn't really exist because you disagree with his opinions and culture.
That way, even if naniwa thought it was stupid, at least he'd know the consequences beforehand. Coming up with rules and laws after incidents is fine, but they should never apply to the incident that caused them to be made, that is just common sense, you can't convict someone due to a law that you come up with mid-trial in court. As for the validity of the game, why are you forcing him to play anyway GOM? Should all 7 games of a bo7 be played even after someone has won 4? In AoL and Up/Down, do you play the meaningless games? No, both of those are stupid concepts, as is the concept of the entire Naniwa vs. Nestea match. How could you honestly expect them to take it seriously?
And how come nobody ever cared when idra threw those games away against MC at MLG? The stupid 6 pool comes to mind. And those actually mattered. Or when Stephano did it in Dreamhack? Because those strategies had a "chance" of winning, even if the player didn't give a fuck? So all of you just want to be lied to so that everything stays the perfect little way you want it to? That train of thought is really scary to me, I can't believe people can think like that. And if you claim it's supposed to be a showmatch/grudgematch/whatever, what about when Nestea said Huk tried too hard/cared too much in their showmatch and too it too seriously?
To me it just seems like a bunch of hypocritical decisions and words being spoken out of pure emotional response. I'm fine with you not agreeing with what naniwa did. I'm fine with you not liking naniwa. But what I'm not fine with is the punishment, the random rules that pop up after-the-fact, and the ban.
I honestly don't understand anyone who does agree, but I have a feeling emotion and bias due to not liking the guy is clearly surpassing logic.
Well said this is exactly how I see it. No one knew the consequences before this. All this will do is make people that play in the GSL fear the GSL. If for whatever reason they do decide that your 6 pool is something they do not like then you could be thrown out. It is good business practice to have all these things clear cut and worked out to cover your own butt before hand, not to make them up on the fly.
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496
Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go.
- GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
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On December 15 2011 04:36 jj33 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:33 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 04:28 jj33 wrote:On December 15 2011 04:24 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 04:17 jj33 wrote:On December 15 2011 04:15 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 04:11 Inertia_EU wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. Exactly this. If a Korean player disrespected a tournament/did not represent their team well it'd be the end of their career. So what? I don't want the esport to grow in an industry were you get DQ for saying "ggg" instead of "gg". Players need room to show their characters. After all we love a player more by his character than his skill. And respect is subjective. In USA what Naniwa did would have been laughed of. In Korea we must cut his pinkie. Wrong. I'm from america born and raised. NFL for example. Last game of regular season, a team that's already in playoffs, might take it easier sure, to avoid needless injuries. But they would get serious backlash if they came and made a mockery of the game. NIce exxageration with your GGG example and what not. And cutting off pinky? That's a Japanese yakuza thing, nice ignorance. Regarding your comment about liking a player more due to character than skill? hahaha. Ok go watch WWE. I actually like to see the best of the best in regards to skill. Yeah? Who do you follow on stream? Bomber or Destiny? And actually don't answer cause I don't care about you in specific, but the majority. Bomber doesn't go above 2k, like ever. And if the NFL teams take the game easier than they don't deliver 100% of the skill, so it's an irrelevant example. why not force them to play at their best in every game? And I wasn't exaggerating, it's what Kespa does. what a dumb example regarding your stream watching hahha. I guess you would rather watch destiny over MVP in a real tournament huh? And no the NFL example isn't irrelevant. They are still playing the game out and not making a mockery. What naniwa did would be like an NFL team purposely throwing interceptions or fumbling or running the wrong fucken way. Can you provide me with all the matches of NFL that have been played this year to make the statement that they don't waste the time in the game? You are just stating somethin in the air. And comparing StarCraft mathes to timed matches is weird. Naniwa didn't insta gg, he did something useless instead to lose the game. And if the game is pointless then they can do what they want on the field as long as they respect the rules of the game.Who am I to blame them for not playing like it was the finals? Waste what time in the game? I'm not stating anything from thin air. It's really simple. Naniwa threw the game way by throwing probes and no micro no nothing. Literally gave the game away to nestea. That would be the equivalent of an NFL team purposely throwing interceptions or fumbling and literally giving the game away to opposing team.
Stop compareing it to a sport that in no way can be compare to this situation pls... There is always ALWAYS money to play for in NFL each match, they dont play for nothing.
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"found unfit to be a gamer" - What does this mean? I don't see how Nani is "unfit to be a gamer"
"players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and put Nani is a tough situation. The games would have been sub-par if the games were worthless. If anything, Gom apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work.
I think this is just a major cultural disconnect. It seems Koreans look at progaming much more in terms of honor, while foreigners look at it as a profession.
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Discussion should just end here. Break the rules --> receive punishment.
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On December 15 2011 04:24 Master_Blaster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:17 jj33 wrote:On December 15 2011 04:15 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 04:11 Inertia_EU wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. Exactly this. If a Korean player disrespected a tournament/did not represent their team well it'd be the end of their career. So what? I don't want the esport to grow in an industry were you get DQ for saying "ggg" instead of "gg". Players need room to show their characters. After all we love a player more by his character than his skill. And respect is subjective. In USA what Naniwa did would have been laughed of. In Korea we must cut his pinkie. Wrong. I'm from america born and raised. NFL for example. Last game of regular season, a team that's already in playoffs, might take it easier sure, to avoid needless injuries. But they would get serious backlash if they came and made a mockery of the game. NIce exxageration with your GGG example and what not. And cutting off pinky? That's a Japanese yakuza thing, nice ignorance. Regarding your comment about liking a player more due to character than skill? hahaha. Ok go watch WWE. I actually like to see the best of the best in regards to skill. Yeah? Who do you follow on stream? Bomber or Destiny? And actually don't answer cause I don't care about you in specific, but the majority. Bomber doesn't go above 2k, like ever. And if the NFL teams take the game easier than they don't deliver 100% of the skill, so it's an irrelevant example. why not force them to play at their best in every game? And I wasn't exaggerating, it's what Kespa does.
Not giving 100% during the last game because you don't want to injure players doesn't mean showing up on the field in sweatpants and play tag with the cheerleaders. They still play the game, and play every minutes of that game. They have fans who come to watch the game, and paid for the game. Then, you would tell me ''B B But why pay for the last game then,when you know that noone will be playing the game seriously?'' well, many fans aren't even loyal to the actual players, they are loyal to the team. They come to watch the team play, not to see the team play with all their big guns all the time. Not playing the game will be taken as an insult to the fans and the managers, no matter if it's the last game or the finals game.
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No worse than MLG's arbitrary rules about Korean invites.
They literally just sit around and discuss what Koreans would be cool to have in a tournament. That's how players like Boxer, Nada and MMA where invited. And everyone, particularly the audience, benefitted from it.
GSL and MLG have it right. At the end of the day, they are a business that caters to fans, not players -- their viewership and sponsors play the bills. Whatever is going to produce the most entertaining product is the highest priority.
Look at an organization like NASL -- which, on paper, is 'an ideal' and fair tournament structure that rewards the most consistent players. The viewing experience it produces is pretty average and repetitive.
While it's important to be 'fair', it's more important to be good.
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"players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and should be apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work.
Fucked up the format? There's always a potential for meaningless matches in a tournament with group play. It even happens in the World Cup THE LARGEST TOURNAMENT OF ANYTHING ON THE PLANET.
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On December 15 2011 04:44 Papulatus wrote:"found unfit to be a gamer" - What does this mean? I don't see how Nani is "unfit to be a gamer" "players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and put Nani is a tough situation. The games would have been sub-par if the games were worthless. If anything, Gom apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work. I think this is just a major cultural disconnect. It seems Koreans look at progaming much more in terms of honor, while foreigners look at it as a profession.
there you said it yourself. meaningless or not, at least don't throw the game and make a mockery of it.
And no there is no cultural disconnect. What are you kids like 12? It's called taking pride in your profession.
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On December 15 2011 04:47 ForeverSleep wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:24 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 04:17 jj33 wrote:On December 15 2011 04:15 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 04:11 Inertia_EU wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. Exactly this. If a Korean player disrespected a tournament/did not represent their team well it'd be the end of their career. So what? I don't want the esport to grow in an industry were you get DQ for saying "ggg" instead of "gg". Players need room to show their characters. After all we love a player more by his character than his skill. And respect is subjective. In USA what Naniwa did would have been laughed of. In Korea we must cut his pinkie. Wrong. I'm from america born and raised. NFL for example. Last game of regular season, a team that's already in playoffs, might take it easier sure, to avoid needless injuries. But they would get serious backlash if they came and made a mockery of the game. NIce exxageration with your GGG example and what not. And cutting off pinky? That's a Japanese yakuza thing, nice ignorance. Regarding your comment about liking a player more due to character than skill? hahaha. Ok go watch WWE. I actually like to see the best of the best in regards to skill. Yeah? Who do you follow on stream? Bomber or Destiny? And actually don't answer cause I don't care about you in specific, but the majority. Bomber doesn't go above 2k, like ever. And if the NFL teams take the game easier than they don't deliver 100% of the skill, so it's an irrelevant example. why not force them to play at their best in every game? And I wasn't exaggerating, it's what Kespa does. Not giving 100% during the last game because you don't want to injure players doesn't mean showing up on the field in sweatpants and play tag with the cheerleaders. They still play the game, and play every minutes of that game. They have fans who come to watch the game, and paid for the game. Then, you would tell me ''B B But why pay for the last game then,when you know that noone will be playing the game seriously?'' well, many fans aren't even loyal to the actual players, they are loyal to the team. They come to watch the team play, not to see the team play with all their big guns all the time. Not playing the game will be taken as an insult to the fans and the managers, no matter if it's the last game or the finals game.
someone gets it.
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On December 14 2011 21:06 bubblegumbo wrote:
You are stupid if you think that a professional gamer, being required to be professional is considered arbitrary. One day when you get a job that means shit and puts you in the scrutiny of others perhaps you'll understand. Act like a kid and you'll be treated like a kid, especially when it's a job.
Wow. Someone who's rational and understands that when people give you the opportunity to make money, it's not unreasonable of them to, you know, expect some standard of conduct in return. I think I'm in love.
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On December 15 2011 04:50 stopmakingsense wrote:Show nested quote +
"players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and should be apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work.
Fucked up the format? There's always a potential for meaningless matches in a tournament with group play. It even happens in the World Cup THE LARGEST TOURNAMENT OF ANYTHING ON THE PLANET.
Group standings actually matter to teams in the World Cup. Actually, every game matters as your moving average standing in the world ranking list changes your seeding in tournaments (e.g. Spain and Netherlands couldn't be put into the same group due to being #1 and #2).
These matches were totally meaningless. Nothing on the line except the "honor". That's where cultural differences kick in btw.
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On December 15 2011 04:25 Master_Blaster wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:20 ForeverSleep wrote:On December 15 2011 04:00 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 03:56 Denzil wrote:On December 15 2011 03:51 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 03:48 Denzil wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. This is true, there would be so much more of a shit storm say Clide did this after going 0-3 in his group. One where he'd probably be forced to make a statement saying he's taking a break from pro gaming. Why should we care that a Korean would get sacrificed for doing this? It's their culture. Naniwa sees StarCraft as a profession not a religion. Why are they forcing their view on the player? Why's Naniwa in Korea if he's not going to respect their culture? When you go to Istambul they don't make the tourist women cover their heads, because the Muslim don't force their own view on tourist for example Koreans wanting foreigns to act as they do is wrong. Also Naniwa shouldn't be force to play a useless game. Again, imposing their view. FYI, when you go to Saudi Arabia, women are forced to cover their heads because the Muslim there do force their views on tourists (and men cannot wear shorts if I remember). Just because they don't do it in one place doesn't mean it doesn't exist somewhere else (as you example would make it believe). Therefore, find a better example... That was the point, that people don't force their culture everywhere so it's not like its a must to understand the koreans. And I don't want to change my morality based on the timezone.
If you are to live somewhere, it is however implied that you should follow A MINIMUM of their culture, if you intend to live there for even 3 days. It's not because they do not force you to follow their culture that you must live there as if it is the US (or whatever place you live). People will expect actions out of you. even if you are a tourist. As such, they don't expect you to live as one of them. Hell, they probably don't even take you as one of them. However, they expect you to respect some of the important parts in their culture. As it happens, integrity at work and respect to the to people is VERY important in Korea, and throwing a game like that is actually taken a an offence to at least that part of their culture.
Then again, this isn't a question of culture IMO. Pretty sure that it is considered an insult not to show up for a game, where ever you might be. That even goes for college soccer game, btw, where the tickets are free and the players aren't payed...
There might not be a lot of people in the Gom studio, and some people might even be watching the freaking free stream and not paying one buck, but the problem is, the people in the studio moved to go see those games, people who watch the free stream dropped whatever they were doing to watch (some of you at a time like 4 AM because you live somewhere far from Korea). Is it really good to waste their time like that?
EDIT, added some stuff
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I agree completely.
GOM kicks Naniwa out before ever stating he's not allowed to do what he got kicked for.
Then GOM tells Naniwa he's being unprofessional? Come on.
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Why does it seem like this post is about 2 totally different things? Anyway, Koreans always overreact to anything that happens on their home turf. I'm sure the Koreans would of kicked Naniwa out after his GSL match in which he didn't GG out if they could of made up a reason. Now with this new incident Koreans are just going crazy so Gom of course has to kick Naniwa out purely based on Korean netizen rage.
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On December 15 2011 04:56 Timerly wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:50 stopmakingsense wrote:
"players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and should be apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work.
Fucked up the format? There's always a potential for meaningless matches in a tournament with group play. It even happens in the World Cup THE LARGEST TOURNAMENT OF ANYTHING ON THE PLANET. Group standings actually matter to teams in the World Cup. Actually, every game matters as your moving average standing in the world ranking list changes your seeding in tournaments (e.g. Spain and Netherlands couldn't be put into the same group due to being #1 and #2). These matches were totally meaningless. Nothing on the line except the "honor". That's where cultural differences kick in btw.
LOL anyone who says naniwa's match was menaingless is obvious ignorant of the current situation. had naniwa played a regular game to entertain his fans (even a carrier rush) then he would be is code S. he threw the game, now he's not in code S. sounds like the game meant alot after all eh?
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On December 15 2011 04:44 Papulatus wrote:"found unfit to be a gamer" - What does this mean? I don't see how Nani is "unfit to be a gamer" "players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and should be apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294943
I suppose that is what Mr Chae expects out of pro-gamers.
As far as midconduct goes, I'd say that making the tournament that gave you a time slot, and an opportunity to showcase yourself as a gamer look bad is pretty disrespectful. Naniwa should abide by the tournament format and rules if hes planning to participate rather than throwing a tantrum and trying to make a point during a match. What he did was immature and short-sighted and he should have expected some sort of reprecussion with GOMs past dealings with this sort of thing (choya). I doubt he would have probe rushed if he was in a position to move onto the next round and didn't need a win.
GOM has nothing to appologize for as their format was announced beforehand. The players implicitly agree to abiding by the rules and format by participating in the tournament in the first place.
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On December 15 2011 05:02 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:56 Timerly wrote:On December 15 2011 04:50 stopmakingsense wrote:
"players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and should be apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work.
Fucked up the format? There's always a potential for meaningless matches in a tournament with group play. It even happens in the World Cup THE LARGEST TOURNAMENT OF ANYTHING ON THE PLANET. Group standings actually matter to teams in the World Cup. Actually, every game matters as your moving average standing in the world ranking list changes your seeding in tournaments (e.g. Spain and Netherlands couldn't be put into the same group due to being #1 and #2). These matches were totally meaningless. Nothing on the line except the "honor". That's where cultural differences kick in btw. LOL anyone who says naniwa's match was menaingless is obvious ignorant of the current situation. had naniwa played a regular game to entertain his fans (even a carrier rush) then he would be is code S. he threw the game, now he's not in code S. sounds like the game meant alot after all eh?
No one including naniwa would have expected his spot revoked.
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A strict specific rule system on how to qualify will be the first step towards GSL attracting a sustained foreign player attention.
A specific, and static, rule system on how the tournament works and how disputes are resolved will be necessary in the long run to sustain the potential interest of foreign players in the GSL. Foreign players cannot be expected to make the enormous sacrifices necessary without a fixed (or at least perceived reliable, realistically non-arbitrary) framework in place for them to practice their profession. Putting such a framework in place will yield enormous benefits for both Gretec Corp. and the prestige of the GSL.
On a sidenote: What really infuriated me about this whole debacle, besides the obviously outrageous punishment enacted (I did and I do agree Naniwa needed some form of reprimand, but this..), was the aforementioned Korean netizenry reaction, which really showed how malicious, pretentious and dim these supposedly respectful ( / respectable) people were. I've scarcely been so disappointed in any group of people. The moment someone gave the OK, they turned from civilised people to a barbarians with no self-restraint or concept of conscience. Or empathy for that matter. Mob of mongrels determined to kick the shit out of the guy on the ground. MKP of all people.. ChoyafOu... The supposed Real Professionals of progaming indeed. Teaching us all a lesson in the Korean concept of respectfulness.
(sorry for the harsh language in the latter part, but I do think this opinion needs to be stated, with some underlining)
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That's the thing. He wouldn't of because he would have a position to frigging win.
We're going in circles.
There was nothing to showcase when both players are out.
The rule in question was never established before and like I said, it's up for interpretation because its so vague. Practically anything can be viewed as offensive or abusive. It doesn't even have to effect the player. It only has to annoy the spectator as they put it.
You know what punishment I would have given him if any? Forfeit his prize money. There you go. Don't want to play, then no prize money.
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they're not arbitrarily *making up* rules - they're arbitrarily *interpreting* rules that are conveniently vague
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On December 15 2011 04:47 Defacer wrote:
No worse than MLG's arbitrary rules about Korean invites.
They literally just sit around and discuss what Koreans would be cool to have in a tournament. That's how players like Boxer, Nada and MMA where invited. And everyone, particularly the audience, benefitted from it.
GSL and MLG have it right. At the end of the day, they are a business that caters to fans, not players -- their viewership and sponsors play the bills. Whatever is going to produce the most entertaining product is the highest priority.
Look at an organization like NASL -- which, on paper, is 'an ideal' and fair tournament structure that rewards the most consistent players. The viewing experience it produces is pretty average and repetitive.
While it's important to be 'fair', it's more important to be good.
Then are you implying that GSL and MLG aren't esports; rather an entertainment show just like what WWE is?
Because a gaming tournament is indeed a tournament, but it doesn't necessarily imply that its esports.
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On December 15 2011 05:06 Kontys wrote:
A strict specific rule system on how to qualify will be the first step towards GSL attracting a sustained foreign player attention.
A specific, and static, rule system on how the tournament works and how disputes are resolved will be necessary in the long run to sustain the potential interest of foreign players in the GSL. Foreign players cannot be expected to make the enormous sacrifices necessary without a fixed (or at least perceived reliable, realistically non-arbitrary) framework in place for them to practice their profession. Putting such a framework in place will yield enormous benefits for both Gretec Corp. and the prestige of the GSL.
On a sidenote: What really infuriated me about this whole debacle, besides the obviously outrageous punishment enacted (I did and I do agree Naniwa needed some form of reprimand, but this..), was the aforementioned Korean netizenry reaction, which really showed how malicious, pretentious and dim these supposedly respectful ( / respectable) people were. I've scarcely been so disappointed in any group of people. The moment someone gave the OK, they turned from civilised people to a barbarians with no self-restraint or concept of conscience. Or empathy for that matter. Mob of mongrels determined to kick the shit out of the guy on the ground. MKP of all people.. ChoyafOu... The supposed Real Professionals of progaming indeed. Teaching us all a lesson in the Korean concept of respectfulness.
(sorry for the harsh language in the latter part, but I do think this opinion needs to be stated, with some underlining)
sounds alot the forums here with all the anti korean sentiments
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On December 15 2011 04:44 Papulatus wrote:"found unfit to be a gamer" - What does this mean? I don't see how Nani is "unfit to be a gamer" "players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and put Nani is a tough situation. The games would have been sub-par if the games were worthless. If anything, Gom apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work. I think this is just a major cultural disconnect. It seems Koreans look at progaming much more in terms of honor, while foreigners look at it as a profession.
I literally LOL when i read all these posts about how the game was "meaningless".
THis was a hyped match with tons of viewers. The content that could have been derived from a well played fourth match is FAR from meaningless. The only reasonable arguments that can be made about the Naniwa issue are about the severity of the punishment.
Naniwa messed up and GOM is within their rights to punish him. How they went about it seemed severe to me but then I cant think of an enforcable alternative I like.
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More skill I agree, which is but one reason that naniwa does not belong in Code S for free. 0-10 is condemning
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if nestea drone rushed naniwa, no matter what he had accomplished. netizens would have came down on him harder and nestea probably retire out of shame.
naniwa got it easy.
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On December 15 2011 05:12 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:44 Papulatus wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
"found unfit to be a gamer" - What does this mean? I don't see how Nani is "unfit to be a gamer" "players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and put Nani is a tough situation. The games would have been sub-par if the games were worthless. If anything, Gom apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work. I think this is just a major cultural disconnect. It seems Koreans look at progaming much more in terms of honor, while foreigners look at it as a profession. I literally LOL when i read all these posts about how the game was "meaningless". THis was a hyped match with tons of viewers. The content that could have been derived from a well played fourth match is FAR from meaningless. The only reasonable arguments that can be made about the Naniwa issue are about the severity of the punishment. Naniwa messed up and GOM is within their rights to punish him. How they went about it seemed severe to me but then I cant think of an enforcable alternative I like.
That's the thing.
Sports are self-serving and the entertainment factor is only the effect. Not the cause. The players are the agents.
Your perspective is different from the player like in Johan's case. He only wants to win. Nothing more; nothing less. Lost opportunity, well tough.
To him, the game was meaningless and he decided not to show up like countless other players who don't want to be in those type of situations. Your opinion means nothing to the player. If you get entertainment out of it great. If not tough luck.
They aren't there for you. They are there for themselves first and foremost.
On December 15 2011 05:07 o[twist] wrote:they're not arbitrarily *making up* rules - they're arbitrarily *interpreting* rules that are conveniently vague
Exactly. It's a pragmatic problem.
It's a terrible rule and it should be re-written promptly before any player and audience member can abuse it again. The player's association should be downright dumbfounded that such a rule exists in that vague form.
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On December 15 2011 05:05 OrangeSoda wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:02 PrinceXizor wrote:On December 15 2011 04:56 Timerly wrote:On December 15 2011 04:50 stopmakingsense wrote:
"players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and should be apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work.
Fucked up the format? There's always a potential for meaningless matches in a tournament with group play. It even happens in the World Cup THE LARGEST TOURNAMENT OF ANYTHING ON THE PLANET. Group standings actually matter to teams in the World Cup. Actually, every game matters as your moving average standing in the world ranking list changes your seeding in tournaments (e.g. Spain and Netherlands couldn't be put into the same group due to being #1 and #2). These matches were totally meaningless. Nothing on the line except the "honor". That's where cultural differences kick in btw. LOL anyone who says naniwa's match was menaingless is obvious ignorant of the current situation. had naniwa played a regular game to entertain his fans (even a carrier rush) then he would be is code S. he threw the game, now he's not in code S. sounds like the game meant alot after all eh? No one including naniwa would have expected his spot revoked.
you shouldn't have to be TOLD to do the right thing.
he should have been disappointed in himself, as a progamer who failed himself, and played his last game for his fans. thats how things work in korea and in the world of entertainment
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I agree that GOM seems to have decided upon this verdict because of netizen/progamer reactions. It would seem that saving face is a large part of maintaining integrity for GOMtv rather than actually providing a fair judgement system as to when they choose to enact these rules.
I don't agree with the punishments that GOM has decided for Naniwa (or cocca, byun and choya for that matter). To me it seems that they were just short-sighted actions not meant to harm anyone rather than intentional offenses. Warnings would have sufficed for all the cases in my opinion as the players do take their participation in these tournaments seriously. I feel sorry for Naniwa that he has to be the example to the foreign community and I believe that a lot of the korean community percieved Naniwa's actions to have been malicious because they were well aware of GOMs past judgements with choya, cocca, byuns cases.
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On December 15 2011 05:20 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:05 OrangeSoda wrote:On December 15 2011 05:02 PrinceXizor wrote:On December 15 2011 04:56 Timerly wrote:On December 15 2011 04:50 stopmakingsense wrote:
"players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and should be apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work.
Fucked up the format? There's always a potential for meaningless matches in a tournament with group play. It even happens in the World Cup THE LARGEST TOURNAMENT OF ANYTHING ON THE PLANET. Group standings actually matter to teams in the World Cup. Actually, every game matters as your moving average standing in the world ranking list changes your seeding in tournaments (e.g. Spain and Netherlands couldn't be put into the same group due to being #1 and #2). These matches were totally meaningless. Nothing on the line except the "honor". That's where cultural differences kick in btw. LOL anyone who says naniwa's match was menaingless is obvious ignorant of the current situation. had naniwa played a regular game to entertain his fans (even a carrier rush) then he would be is code S. he threw the game, now he's not in code S. sounds like the game meant alot after all eh? No one including naniwa would have expected his spot revoked. you shouldn't have to be TOLD to do the right thing. he should have been disappointed in himself, as a progamer who failed himself, and played his last game for his fans. thats how things work in korea and in the world of entertainment
really? cause in the real world i have the impression you can't just break promises because you don't feel like keeping them anymore.
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On December 15 2011 04:42 TaKemE wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:36 jj33 wrote:On December 15 2011 04:33 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 04:28 jj33 wrote:On December 15 2011 04:24 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 04:17 jj33 wrote:On December 15 2011 04:15 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 04:11 Inertia_EU wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. Exactly this. If a Korean player disrespected a tournament/did not represent their team well it'd be the end of their career. So what? I don't want the esport to grow in an industry were you get DQ for saying "ggg" instead of "gg". Players need room to show their characters. After all we love a player more by his character than his skill. And respect is subjective. In USA what Naniwa did would have been laughed of. In Korea we must cut his pinkie. Wrong. I'm from america born and raised. NFL for example. Last game of regular season, a team that's already in playoffs, might take it easier sure, to avoid needless injuries. But they would get serious backlash if they came and made a mockery of the game. NIce exxageration with your GGG example and what not. And cutting off pinky? That's a Japanese yakuza thing, nice ignorance. Regarding your comment about liking a player more due to character than skill? hahaha. Ok go watch WWE. I actually like to see the best of the best in regards to skill. Yeah? Who do you follow on stream? Bomber or Destiny? And actually don't answer cause I don't care about you in specific, but the majority. Bomber doesn't go above 2k, like ever. And if the NFL teams take the game easier than they don't deliver 100% of the skill, so it's an irrelevant example. why not force them to play at their best in every game? And I wasn't exaggerating, it's what Kespa does. what a dumb example regarding your stream watching hahha. I guess you would rather watch destiny over MVP in a real tournament huh? And no the NFL example isn't irrelevant. They are still playing the game out and not making a mockery. What naniwa did would be like an NFL team purposely throwing interceptions or fumbling or running the wrong fucken way. Can you provide me with all the matches of NFL that have been played this year to make the statement that they don't waste the time in the game? You are just stating somethin in the air. And comparing StarCraft mathes to timed matches is weird. Naniwa didn't insta gg, he did something useless instead to lose the game. And if the game is pointless then they can do what they want on the field as long as they respect the rules of the game.Who am I to blame them for not playing like it was the finals? Waste what time in the game? I'm not stating anything from thin air. It's really simple. Naniwa threw the game way by throwing probes and no micro no nothing. Literally gave the game away to nestea. That would be the equivalent of an NFL team purposely throwing interceptions or fumbling and literally giving the game away to opposing team. Stop compareing it to a sport that in no way can be compare to this situation pls... There is always ALWAYS money to play for in NFL each match, they dont play for nothing.
So it's OK to be unsportsmanlike if you don't get paid for playing. I see.
That's an... interesting definition of professionalism. He agreed to play. He agreed to show up. But he threw a game. But it's OK, because he wasn't being paid for that game.
On December 15 2011 05:17 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:12 Velocirapture wrote:On December 15 2011 04:44 Papulatus wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
"found unfit to be a gamer" - What does this mean? I don't see how Nani is "unfit to be a gamer" "players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and put Nani is a tough situation. The games would have been sub-par if the games were worthless. If anything, Gom apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work. I think this is just a major cultural disconnect. It seems Koreans look at progaming much more in terms of honor, while foreigners look at it as a profession. I literally LOL when i read all these posts about how the game was "meaningless". THis was a hyped match with tons of viewers. The content that could have been derived from a well played fourth match is FAR from meaningless. The only reasonable arguments that can be made about the Naniwa issue are about the severity of the punishment. Naniwa messed up and GOM is within their rights to punish him. How they went about it seemed severe to me but then I cant think of an enforcable alternative I like. That's the thing. Sports are self-serving and the entertainment factor is only the effect. Not the cause. The players are the agents. Your perspective is different from the player like in Johan's case. He only wants to win. Nothing more; nothing less. Lost opportunity, well tough. To him, the game was meaningless and he decided not to show up like countless other players who don't want to be in those type of situations. Your opinion means nothing to the player. If you get entertainment out of it great. If not tough luck. They aren't there for you. They are there for themselves first and foremost.
No, but GOM is there for me. And it's GOM that the players must ultimately answer to. If the players can't act professionally towards the game, I see no problem with GOM punishing them.
On December 15 2011 05:17 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:07 o[twist] wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
they're not arbitrarily *making up* rules - they're arbitrarily *interpreting* rules that are conveniently vague Exactly. It's a pragmatic problem.It's a terrible rule and it should be re-written promptly before any player and audience member can abuse it again. The player's association should be downright dumbfounded that such a rule exists in that vague form.
A terrible rule? Every sport has a blanket "unsportsmanlike conduct" rule that allows refs and leagues to impose penalties for arbitrary reasons. All of them.
Leagues should not be required to list every possible act that could be construed as a player being an ass in a game. A simple "don't be an ass" is sufficient for most people.
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All of the people saying that Gom made the rule after it happened, is this actually true? Or are you just making it up or did you read someone else say it than believe it to be true. I am just curious because the tweets from the GSL made it seem like it was a pre-existing rule. Or am I wrong? If so can you send me a link or something to prove this to me?
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On December 15 2011 05:32 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:42 TaKemE wrote:On December 15 2011 04:36 jj33 wrote:On December 15 2011 04:33 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 04:28 jj33 wrote:On December 15 2011 04:24 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 04:17 jj33 wrote:On December 15 2011 04:15 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 04:11 Inertia_EU wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. Exactly this. If a Korean player disrespected a tournament/did not represent their team well it'd be the end of their career. So what? I don't want the esport to grow in an industry were you get DQ for saying "ggg" instead of "gg". Players need room to show their characters. After all we love a player more by his character than his skill. And respect is subjective. In USA what Naniwa did would have been laughed of. In Korea we must cut his pinkie. Wrong. I'm from america born and raised. NFL for example. Last game of regular season, a team that's already in playoffs, might take it easier sure, to avoid needless injuries. But they would get serious backlash if they came and made a mockery of the game. NIce exxageration with your GGG example and what not. And cutting off pinky? That's a Japanese yakuza thing, nice ignorance. Regarding your comment about liking a player more due to character than skill? hahaha. Ok go watch WWE. I actually like to see the best of the best in regards to skill. Yeah? Who do you follow on stream? Bomber or Destiny? And actually don't answer cause I don't care about you in specific, but the majority. Bomber doesn't go above 2k, like ever. And if the NFL teams take the game easier than they don't deliver 100% of the skill, so it's an irrelevant example. why not force them to play at their best in every game? And I wasn't exaggerating, it's what Kespa does. what a dumb example regarding your stream watching hahha. I guess you would rather watch destiny over MVP in a real tournament huh? And no the NFL example isn't irrelevant. They are still playing the game out and not making a mockery. What naniwa did would be like an NFL team purposely throwing interceptions or fumbling or running the wrong fucken way. Can you provide me with all the matches of NFL that have been played this year to make the statement that they don't waste the time in the game? You are just stating somethin in the air. And comparing StarCraft mathes to timed matches is weird. Naniwa didn't insta gg, he did something useless instead to lose the game. And if the game is pointless then they can do what they want on the field as long as they respect the rules of the game.Who am I to blame them for not playing like it was the finals? Waste what time in the game? I'm not stating anything from thin air. It's really simple. Naniwa threw the game way by throwing probes and no micro no nothing. Literally gave the game away to nestea. That would be the equivalent of an NFL team purposely throwing interceptions or fumbling and literally giving the game away to opposing team. Stop compareing it to a sport that in no way can be compare to this situation pls... There is always ALWAYS money to play for in NFL each match, they dont play for nothing. So it's OK to be unsportsmanlike if you don't get paid for playing. I see. That's an... interesting definition of professionalism. He agreed to play. He agreed to show up. But he threw a game. But it's OK, because he wasn't being paid for that game. Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:17 StarStruck wrote:On December 15 2011 05:12 Velocirapture wrote:On December 15 2011 04:44 Papulatus wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
"found unfit to be a gamer" - What does this mean? I don't see how Nani is "unfit to be a gamer" "players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and put Nani is a tough situation. The games would have been sub-par if the games were worthless. If anything, Gom apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work. I think this is just a major cultural disconnect. It seems Koreans look at progaming much more in terms of honor, while foreigners look at it as a profession. I literally LOL when i read all these posts about how the game was "meaningless". THis was a hyped match with tons of viewers. The content that could have been derived from a well played fourth match is FAR from meaningless. The only reasonable arguments that can be made about the Naniwa issue are about the severity of the punishment. Naniwa messed up and GOM is within their rights to punish him. How they went about it seemed severe to me but then I cant think of an enforcable alternative I like. That's the thing. Sports are self-serving and the entertainment factor is only the effect. Not the cause. The players are the agents. Your perspective is different from the player like in Johan's case. He only wants to win. Nothing more; nothing less. Lost opportunity, well tough. To him, the game was meaningless and he decided not to show up like countless other players who don't want to be in those type of situations. Your opinion means nothing to the player. If you get entertainment out of it great. If not tough luck. They aren't there for you. They are there for themselves first and foremost. No, but GOM is there for me. And it's GOM that the players must ultimately answer to. If the players can't act professionally towards the game, I see no problem with GOM punishing them. Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:17 StarStruck wrote:On December 15 2011 05:07 o[twist] wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
they're not arbitrarily *making up* rules - they're arbitrarily *interpreting* rules that are conveniently vague Exactly. It's a pragmatic problem.It's a terrible rule and it should be re-written promptly before any player and audience member can abuse it again. The player's association should be downright dumbfounded that such a rule exists in that vague form. A terrible rule? Every sport has a blanket "unsportsmanlike conduct" rule that allows refs and leagues to impose penalties for arbitrary reasons. All of them. Leagues should not be required to list every possible act that could be construed as a player being an ass in a game. A simple "don't be an ass" is sufficient for most people.
So every time my lousy team loses and shows total lack of fight I'm allowed to go up to the ticket booth and ask for my money back because I'm not happy with the product?
"Sorry, but Phil Kessel didn't score tonight or back check properly on that one goal. I want my money back!" Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?
The only thing you are entitled to do is boo. You want to throw shit at them. Go right ahead! It's over excessive and you wouldn't be the better man.
Get over yourself.
Did you even read how the rule was outlined or how vague it was?
Nothing is explained in it bud: offensive, abusive, player, audience aren't well defined. If you actually read how the one bullet is wrote you wouldn't be so blind.
There's a reason why rulebooks are very long in professional sports. Players act like goons and assholes all the time and aren't always punished for it either and they have a whole fucking book to go through. Right now, we're tearing apart one bullet because it is ridiculous and can be interpreted in many different ways.
For fuck sake.
As it stands, anyone unhappy with a player's abusive/offensive shit that they do in game can go punished by how it's laid out. That is completely absurd.
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to the op: just from a conflict of interest stand point you being from sweden doesn't help your cause in this thread.
HOW I PERSONALLY see what naniwa did I would liken it to free speech.
Freedom of speech means you can say a lot of things and be protected by the constitution/bill of rights, however, just because you CAN say something doesn't mean you SHOULD. In other words, naniwa should be allowed to throw away a game--that is his right, however, to do that to your fans and to nestea (who if i understand correctly stayed up all night practicing on his birthday) is completely shitty.
furthermore, when he makes the 4gate remark, the sad thing is its true. when bbbp pulled 12 scvs and left 2 scvs + a mule mining people didn't say "oh hes throwing away the match." now granted that bbbp's build had the potentital to win while nani's did not, in a sense it is kind of the same.
i hope people that read this post understand that i don't support what naniwa did but rather his right to do it albeit however stupid it is.
tldr; should he be able to? yes. is it the right thing to do for the people that support you? hell no.
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Calgary25980 Posts
Sorry, was driving me crazy:
Is GOMs arbitrary rules becoming a problem?
Fixed
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On December 15 2011 05:07 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:47 Defacer wrote:
No worse than MLG's arbitrary rules about Korean invites.
They literally just sit around and discuss what Koreans would be cool to have in a tournament. That's how players like Boxer, Nada and MMA where invited. And everyone, particularly the audience, benefitted from it.
GSL and MLG have it right. At the end of the day, they are a business that caters to fans, not players -- their viewership and sponsors play the bills. Whatever is going to produce the most entertaining product is the highest priority.
Look at an organization like NASL -- which, on paper, is 'an ideal' and fair tournament structure that rewards the most consistent players. The viewing experience it produces is pretty average and repetitive.
While it's important to be 'fair', it's more important to be good.
Then are you implying that GSL and MLG aren't esports; rather an entertainment show just like what WWE is? Because a gaming tournament is indeed a tournament, but it doesn't necessarily imply that its esports.
Of course it's e-sports. But this expectation that the community has -- that these organizations should solely exist to facilitate a procedural system that finds and rewards 'the best SC2' player -- is ludicrous.
GSL and MLG both conduct their business with a high degree of transparency -- more than other major sports. But they both compromise their relatively fair system with foreign invites to insure that their tournaments include interesting international players.
And it's frankly better this way -- I'd rather have Korean invites at NA tournaments than no Korean players at all. NASL tried to invent a 'fair system' that would allow Koreans to participate, and the result was a system that gave Korean's almost NO incentive to participate.
This problem of facilitating international play isn't exclusive to Starcraft. If the NBA could figure out a way to include overseas teams in their regular season, they would. They've tried and talked about it for years.
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Calgary25980 Posts
Oh then it got closed. 
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On December 15 2011 05:42 BroboCop wrote:
to the op: just from a conflict of interest stand point you being from sweden doesn't help your cause in this thread.
The intelligence level of the TL forums is free-falling off a cliff today.
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On December 14 2011 20:20 NovaTheFeared wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:18 Itsmedudeman wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. A korean would have been kicked off his team. That's exactly what would have happened, and we have precedent. After seeing that, I'm convinced Naniwa still has some growing up to do.
But Naniwa isn't korean. And Quantic is not a Korean team. This is the whole culture clash everyone keeps talking about. The only binding thing in this whole shitstorm was the contract between Naniwa and Gom, about the tournament. And none of the contract said "you can't probe rush nestea in a meaningless game." If GOM can cite KEY contract phrases or notes, then by all means withdraw his invite, but until then, any formal actions such as taking away an invite Naniwa EARNED is simply unwarranted.
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On December 15 2011 05:12 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:44 Papulatus wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
"found unfit to be a gamer" - What does this mean? I don't see how Nani is "unfit to be a gamer" "players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and put Nani is a tough situation. The games would have been sub-par if the games were worthless. If anything, Gom apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work. I think this is just a major cultural disconnect. It seems Koreans look at progaming much more in terms of honor, while foreigners look at it as a profession. I literally LOL when i read all these posts about how the game was "meaningless". THis was a hyped match with tons of viewers. The content that could have been derived from a well played fourth match is FAR from meaningless. The only reasonable arguments that can be made about the Naniwa issue are about the severity of the punishment. Naniwa messed up and GOM is within their rights to punish him. How they went about it seemed severe to me but then I cant think of an enforcable alternative I like.
Even if the game was played normally. I don't think anyone would cite that game as proof or usage of saying player x is better than player y because they played that meaningless game in Blizzcup. And seriously, I think the hype instantly died when everyone found out it was an 0-3 nestea vs an 0-3 naniwa.
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Its their tournament, so generally speaking, if you dont like it, go somehere else.
It belive its not based on the fact that naniwa acted unprofessional, but on the fact that eSports is a fragile buissness, and if players behave like that, it will lose the few sponsors that actually invest in them.
Naniwa probably was depressed and thats why he did that, but he has to remmber that "Naniwa Vs Nestea" is a match many might have high expetcations about, even at that point.
In football (a much more developed sport) friendly games for charity for example, bring stars from other sports like shumacher (i dont know exactly how you write his name), and those guys work their ass off, even if there is not much at stake. Thats why later on the are respected and thats why they are asked to attend to more events.
If your behaviour is poor, your requirement will be low.
Its not Unfair, or fair, its not biased or unbiased: Its cause and effect. Its how the world works.
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On December 15 2011 05:32 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:42 TaKemE wrote:On December 15 2011 04:36 jj33 wrote:On December 15 2011 04:33 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 04:28 jj33 wrote:On December 15 2011 04:24 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 04:17 jj33 wrote:On December 15 2011 04:15 Master_Blaster wrote:On December 15 2011 04:11 Inertia_EU wrote:On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished. Exactly this. If a Korean player disrespected a tournament/did not represent their team well it'd be the end of their career. So what? I don't want the esport to grow in an industry were you get DQ for saying "ggg" instead of "gg". Players need room to show their characters. After all we love a player more by his character than his skill. And respect is subjective. In USA what Naniwa did would have been laughed of. In Korea we must cut his pinkie. Wrong. I'm from america born and raised. NFL for example. Last game of regular season, a team that's already in playoffs, might take it easier sure, to avoid needless injuries. But they would get serious backlash if they came and made a mockery of the game. NIce exxageration with your GGG example and what not. And cutting off pinky? That's a Japanese yakuza thing, nice ignorance. Regarding your comment about liking a player more due to character than skill? hahaha. Ok go watch WWE. I actually like to see the best of the best in regards to skill. Yeah? Who do you follow on stream? Bomber or Destiny? And actually don't answer cause I don't care about you in specific, but the majority. Bomber doesn't go above 2k, like ever. And if the NFL teams take the game easier than they don't deliver 100% of the skill, so it's an irrelevant example. why not force them to play at their best in every game? And I wasn't exaggerating, it's what Kespa does. what a dumb example regarding your stream watching hahha. I guess you would rather watch destiny over MVP in a real tournament huh? And no the NFL example isn't irrelevant. They are still playing the game out and not making a mockery. What naniwa did would be like an NFL team purposely throwing interceptions or fumbling or running the wrong fucken way. Can you provide me with all the matches of NFL that have been played this year to make the statement that they don't waste the time in the game? You are just stating somethin in the air. And comparing StarCraft mathes to timed matches is weird. Naniwa didn't insta gg, he did something useless instead to lose the game. And if the game is pointless then they can do what they want on the field as long as they respect the rules of the game.Who am I to blame them for not playing like it was the finals? Waste what time in the game? I'm not stating anything from thin air. It's really simple. Naniwa threw the game way by throwing probes and no micro no nothing. Literally gave the game away to nestea. That would be the equivalent of an NFL team purposely throwing interceptions or fumbling and literally giving the game away to opposing team. Stop compareing it to a sport that in no way can be compare to this situation pls... There is always ALWAYS money to play for in NFL each match, they dont play for nothing. So it's OK to be unsportsmanlike if you don't get paid for playing. I see. That's an... interesting definition of professionalism. He agreed to play. He agreed to show up. But he threw a game. But it's OK, because he wasn't being paid for that game. Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:17 StarStruck wrote:On December 15 2011 05:12 Velocirapture wrote:On December 15 2011 04:44 Papulatus wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
"found unfit to be a gamer" - What does this mean? I don't see how Nani is "unfit to be a gamer" "players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and put Nani is a tough situation. The games would have been sub-par if the games were worthless. If anything, Gom apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work. I think this is just a major cultural disconnect. It seems Koreans look at progaming much more in terms of honor, while foreigners look at it as a profession. I literally LOL when i read all these posts about how the game was "meaningless". THis was a hyped match with tons of viewers. The content that could have been derived from a well played fourth match is FAR from meaningless. The only reasonable arguments that can be made about the Naniwa issue are about the severity of the punishment. Naniwa messed up and GOM is within their rights to punish him. How they went about it seemed severe to me but then I cant think of an enforcable alternative I like. That's the thing. Sports are self-serving and the entertainment factor is only the effect. Not the cause. The players are the agents. Your perspective is different from the player like in Johan's case. He only wants to win. Nothing more; nothing less. Lost opportunity, well tough. To him, the game was meaningless and he decided not to show up like countless other players who don't want to be in those type of situations. Your opinion means nothing to the player. If you get entertainment out of it great. If not tough luck. They aren't there for you. They are there for themselves first and foremost. No, but GOM is there for me. And it's GOM that the players must ultimately answer to. If the players can't act professionally towards the game, I see no problem with GOM punishing them. Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:17 StarStruck wrote:On December 15 2011 05:07 o[twist] wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
they're not arbitrarily *making up* rules - they're arbitrarily *interpreting* rules that are conveniently vague Exactly. It's a pragmatic problem.It's a terrible rule and it should be re-written promptly before any player and audience member can abuse it again. The player's association should be downright dumbfounded that such a rule exists in that vague form. A terrible rule? Every sport has a blanket "unsportsmanlike conduct" rule that allows refs and leagues to impose penalties for arbitrary reasons. All of them. Leagues should not be required to list every possible act that could be construed as a player being an ass in a game. A simple "don't be an ass" is sufficient for most people.
You know, most professional sports have some sort of rule for that but these have a much more well defined basis. As an example, it clearly states in football rules that unsportsmanlike conduct gets you a yellow card (warning) and physical abuse with harmful intention gets you a red card (you're out). This has clear offences and punishments. Now the fun thing is that the rules are 50 pages but the code for referees is 60 pages, explaining when to uphold the rules in what way. The whole code for referees is not present but this is what contains all the definitions, cases etc. that make a rulebook applicable.
I've had my fair share of asses on the playing field that still behaved within the boundaries of the rules, now is someone being an ass an offense? Usually not, it's all about conduct according to rules and their usual intepretation which in this case is just a horrible rule set that was used to somehow justify a decision made after the fact. There should have been better rules.
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I've honestly been researching the GOM tournament rulesets and nowhere does it say that worker rushes are against the rules. GOMtv bent a rule about proffesionalism to pertain to this certain situation so they could punish the player. Which is a very underhanded buisness tactic.
People need to stop posting about naniwa in this thread the thread is about GOMtv and wether they had a rule in place that would pertain to this situation.
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i don't agree with retroactively punishing someone for a rule that doesn't exist when the player's actions are within reason. i don't agree with retroactively inflicting punishments on something as inconsequential as throwing a no-stakes game that has no place in a tournament. you can argue principle all you want, but the reality is that nani's actions are NOTHING like ladder fixing or throwing a game to give someone else a seed.
also, i feel this is GOM shrugging off responsibility for having a poor format, unless they are also going to fix problems on their end.
the korean responses i've read were overall pretty stupid, imo. choya calling naniwa out was the best.
it is OBVIOUS that GOM is punishing naniwa for reasons that did not impact the tournament. what he did wasn't as bad as cheating or anything like that (some idiot in the SoTG thread said peeing on the floor, rofl), so GOM didn't step in right away. they watched the forum hate machine do its thing out and made a decision that seems like it was based on the community reaction, which was largely emotional.
give the man his code S seed. he deserves it and did nothing underhanded.
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So the koreans are having a witchhunt on Naniwa when everyone should know he's one of the most unprofessional players out there? And because of this GOM arbitrarily took his Code S spot?
It seems like the koreans jumped the gun again . I remember back in the earlier GSLs, all the Terrans were marine scv rushing every game because it was unstoppable. From what I recall, the koreans went batshit on the Terran players and nobody does scv marine rushes anymore because of it.
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On December 15 2011 06:30 Phizix wrote:
I've honestly been researching the GOM tournament rulesets and nowhere does it say that worker rushes are against the rules. GOMtv bent a rule about proffesionalism to pertain to this certain situation so they could punish the player. Which is a very underhanded buisness tactic.
People need to stop posting about naniwa in this thread the thread is about GOMtv and wether they had a rule in place that would pertain to this situation.
It's not about the effing worker rush. I'm so tired of people not getting such a simple concept
-GSL is run by Koreans
-Koreans take pride in Starcraft
-Korean SC players do not skimp out on games, regardless of their situation, they take pride in their profession, and do not want to disappoint their team, sponsors, fans, and themselves, as well as their families.
-Probe rushing is skimping and essentially forfeiting the game
-he had a hand on his friggin face he was that enthusiastic
-GOM sees this, sees he's being dishonorable, and UNINVITES HIM FROM AN INVITATIONAL, HE WAS NOT SEEDED
When in Rome, act as the Romans do. You might not understand why Koreans did this, but they have a much different culture than the Western world. If you think "Oh Korean honor etc. is from medieval times lol", then you're ignorant, Asian cultures take a lot of pride in what they do.
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I'm glad they removed him but I wish he didn't do it. I don't want to pay for probe rushes and I'm sure the GSL sponsors don't either. You don't have to make a rule for every stupid thing a player might do and I'm glad GSL realizes this.
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You have no facts that back up your statements. Coca would have been punished just as hard had he not bowed out, and he wasn't even playing in the GSL when he did it.
The fact that they hold integrity over rules (even though HE DID disrespect Nestea, etc.) is what I like about GOM to be honest. They are willing to be flexible on both ends of the spectrum when they should be, rather than adhering very strictly to the rules like KESPA.
On December 15 2011 06:30 Phizix wrote:
I've honestly been researching the GOM tournament rulesets and nowhere does it say that worker rushes are against the rules. GOMtv bent a rule about proffesionalism to pertain to this certain situation so they could punish the player. Which is a very underhanded buisness tactic.
People need to stop posting about naniwa in this thread the thread is about GOMtv and wether they had a rule in place that would pertain to this situation.
I don't think the rule was "bent" in any way, they just usually choose not to enforce that rule when it's a less serious offense. It fits the situation perfectly to be honest.
But in all honesty they shouldn't NEED rule about something like this, it's like Naniwa shooting the other play and then people saying "BUT THERE WAS NO RULE AGAINST IT!!!!" when it should be understood regardless. Maybe they'll add a rule more specific to this situation for the future, but in reality it shouldn't be necessary, nor does that make GOM at fault in any way.
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This entire situation is ridiculous. Why are people fighting for Naniwa at all?
You act unprofessionally, you're treated unprofessionally. Why would Naniwa deserve to keep his invitation after disrespecting the game and one of its top player's like that. Especially in a yearly anniversary tournament!
The point is to play out your games for the fans and sponsors, show how exciting the game is every chance you get. Instead he just flailed his arms like a baby saying I don't give a f**k about SC.
End the god damn argument and appreciate the standards that GOM are setting.
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On December 15 2011 06:36 N1ghtshade wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:30 Phizix wrote:
I've honestly been researching the GOM tournament rulesets and nowhere does it say that worker rushes are against the rules. GOMtv bent a rule about proffesionalism to pertain to this certain situation so they could punish the player. Which is a very underhanded buisness tactic.
People need to stop posting about naniwa in this thread the thread is about GOMtv and wether they had a rule in place that would pertain to this situation. It's not about the effing worker rush. I'm so tired of people not getting such a simple concept -GSL is run by Koreans -Koreans take pride in Starcraft -Korean SC players do not skimp out on games, regardless of their situation, they take pride in their profession, and do not want to disappoint their team, sponsors, fans, and themselves, as well as their families. -Probe rushing is skimping and essentially forfeiting the game -he had a hand on his friggin face he was that enthusiastic -GOM sees this, sees he's being dishonorable, and UNINVITES HIM FROM AN INVITATIONAL, HE WAS NOT SEEDED When in Rome, act as the Romans do. You might not understand why Koreans did this, but they have a much different culture than the Western world. If you think "Oh Korean honor etc. is from medieval times lol", then you're ignorant, Asian cultures take a lot of pride in what they do.
Except you're completely wrong there are several posts on mlg stating naniwa was seeded into code s (even though thats not what the post is about.)
The korean's may have a culture of respect and honor but how does it look when their flagship sc2 epsorts organisation completely makes up a rule to punish something they don't like? Probe rushing may be "like forfeiting" but he played the game rather then just leaving, and I'm 100% sure GOMtv doesnt have a rule against probe rushing or "essentially forfeitting."
This would be like MLG saying Idra you smashed your keyboard at Anaheim so now you cannot attend Raleigh, even though they never had a rule about smashing keyboards.
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That rule seems ridiculously hard to break if players had any common sense. We've seen more than a dozen BM ceremonies already and they don't flaunt the rule at all.
The rule has to be flexible because it is pretty hard to list down all the possible actions that they should disallow when the punishment was going to go on a case by case basis in the first place like savior being banned for life versus choya for one GSTL season versus coca who wasn't punished because his team gave him one that is obviously tougher than Naniwa's punishment.
Don't be an idiot and it's impossible to get punished. I don't know if any Koreans out there found this one rule debatable at all.
On December 15 2011 06:33 Zombo Joe wrote:
So the koreans are having a witchhunt on Naniwa when everyone should know he's one of the most unprofessional players out there? And because of this GOM arbitrarily took his Code S spot?
It seems like the koreans jumped the gun again . I remember back in the earlier GSLs, all the Terrans were marine scv rushing every game because it was unstoppable. From what I recall, the koreans went batshit on the Terran players and nobody does scv marine rushes anymore because of it.
Didn't sC did it still against DRG in the LG tournament and Nestea in a GSL RO4? Balance whining is pretty different from what they deem unprofessional behavior.
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On December 15 2011 06:43 Phizix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:36 N1ghtshade wrote:On December 15 2011 06:30 Phizix wrote:
I've honestly been researching the GOM tournament rulesets and nowhere does it say that worker rushes are against the rules. GOMtv bent a rule about proffesionalism to pertain to this certain situation so they could punish the player. Which is a very underhanded buisness tactic.
People need to stop posting about naniwa in this thread the thread is about GOMtv and wether they had a rule in place that would pertain to this situation. It's not about the effing worker rush. I'm so tired of people not getting such a simple concept -GSL is run by Koreans -Koreans take pride in Starcraft -Korean SC players do not skimp out on games, regardless of their situation, they take pride in their profession, and do not want to disappoint their team, sponsors, fans, and themselves, as well as their families. -Probe rushing is skimping and essentially forfeiting the game -he had a hand on his friggin face he was that enthusiastic -GOM sees this, sees he's being dishonorable, and UNINVITES HIM FROM AN INVITATIONAL, HE WAS NOT SEEDED When in Rome, act as the Romans do. You might not understand why Koreans did this, but they have a much different culture than the Western world. If you think "Oh Korean honor etc. is from medieval times lol", then you're ignorant, Asian cultures take a lot of pride in what they do. Except you're completely wrong there are several posts on mlg stating naniwa was seeded into code s (even though thats not what the post is about.) The korean's may have a culture of respect and honor but how does it look when their flagship sc2 epsorts organisation completely makes up a rule to punish something they don't like? Probe rushing may be "like forfeiting" but he played the game rather then just leaving, and I'm 100% sure GOMtv doesnt have a rule against probe rushing or "essentially forfeitting." This would be like MLG saying Idra you smashed your keyboard at Anaheim so now you cannot attend Raleigh, even though they never had a rule about smashing keyboards.
They did not make it up. "If we feel you are not progamer material, you will be not invited" something along those lines. Professionals do not, not make the minimal effort. He could have 4 gated, failed, then GGed, he didn't even try though. When you are in CODE S, the TOP LEAGUE IN THE WORLD, or so it's been called, you don't do that shit. MLG is a much larger tournament that isn't as exclusive.
EDIT: and with that, I'm glad NaNi was kicked out, he's not professional material.
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On December 14 2011 20:21 Goibon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:17 red4ce wrote:
What GOM giveth, so too GOM shall taketh away. Coca and Rain lost their code S spots for 'unprofessional behavior' so it's not like we didn't know the rule didn't exist. What did Rain do... was it not show up to a match or something? I can't remember it was so long ago -_-
He moved to New York, iirc -_-
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Thing is, people tend to be asses. They also tend to not act it out becaue they know it's against the rules. Now, Nani was tilted and threw the game. Yes, he might have already had to know it would have negative implications, the thing is, the severity of the punishment was not clear to him so he didn't control himself as he might have done had he known what the implications were. Rules are not only made to decide cases, they're also made to prevent them!
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On December 15 2011 06:49 Timerly wrote:
Thing is, people tend to be asses. They also tend to not act it out becaue they know it's against the rules. Now, Nani was tilted and threw the game. Yes, he might have already had to know it would have negative implications, the thing is, the severity of the punishment was not clear to him so he didn't control himself as he might have done had he known what the implications were. Rules are not only made to decide cases, they're also made to prevent them!
It's called common sense, common courtesy, and sportsmanship -.- I honestly don't know why everyone is defending him.
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Hell, the NON-arbitrary GOM rules are a problem. Unnecessarily complicated and confusing. This is a distraction.
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On December 15 2011 06:45 N1ghtshade wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 06:43 Phizix wrote:On December 15 2011 06:36 N1ghtshade wrote:On December 15 2011 06:30 Phizix wrote:
I've honestly been researching the GOM tournament rulesets and nowhere does it say that worker rushes are against the rules. GOMtv bent a rule about proffesionalism to pertain to this certain situation so they could punish the player. Which is a very underhanded buisness tactic.
People need to stop posting about naniwa in this thread the thread is about GOMtv and wether they had a rule in place that would pertain to this situation. It's not about the effing worker rush. I'm so tired of people not getting such a simple concept -GSL is run by Koreans -Koreans take pride in Starcraft -Korean SC players do not skimp out on games, regardless of their situation, they take pride in their profession, and do not want to disappoint their team, sponsors, fans, and themselves, as well as their families. -Probe rushing is skimping and essentially forfeiting the game -he had a hand on his friggin face he was that enthusiastic -GOM sees this, sees he's being dishonorable, and UNINVITES HIM FROM AN INVITATIONAL, HE WAS NOT SEEDED When in Rome, act as the Romans do. You might not understand why Koreans did this, but they have a much different culture than the Western world. If you think "Oh Korean honor etc. is from medieval times lol", then you're ignorant, Asian cultures take a lot of pride in what they do. Except you're completely wrong there are several posts on mlg stating naniwa was seeded into code s (even though thats not what the post is about.) The korean's may have a culture of respect and honor but how does it look when their flagship sc2 epsorts organisation completely makes up a rule to punish something they don't like? Probe rushing may be "like forfeiting" but he played the game rather then just leaving, and I'm 100% sure GOMtv doesnt have a rule against probe rushing or "essentially forfeitting." This would be like MLG saying Idra you smashed your keyboard at Anaheim so now you cannot attend Raleigh, even though they never had a rule about smashing keyboards. They did not make it up. "If we feel you are not progamer material, you will be not invited" something along those lines. Professionals do not, not make the minimal effort. He could have 4 gated, failed, then GGed, he didn't even try though. When you are in CODE S, the TOP LEAGUE IN THE WORLD, or so it's been called, you don't do that shit. MLG is a much larger tournament that isn't as exclusive. EDIT: and with that, I'm glad NaNi was kicked out, he's not professional material.
So you make some random statement saying they did have a rule about not probe rushing and dont cite your sources?
kk i've been searching for GOMtv rulesets and Blizzard Cup rules for a while now and GOM doesnt even have a proffesionalism rule.
Here's GOMtv's tournament ruleset:
Tournament Rules
Game Play Rules
1) All matches will be played with ‘StarCraft II – Wings of Liberty’ (12+ version, rated by GRB).
2) All matches will be played with the latest patch available at the time of the game play.
3) All matches will follow the tournament format. Ro16 : Bo3, Ro8~Semifinals : Bo5, Final : Bo7
4) Games will be played on maps included in the map pool.
5) Players must disable Toast Notifications in the Battle.net options.
6) All players must set their status to Busy.
7) All games will be observed by 2 GOMTV Observers.
8) Observer will host all games and players must notify the observer that they are ready via the waiting room’s chatting window.
9) There should be no communication between the players other than ‘GG’, ‘gg’, ‘ㅎㅎ’,'ㅈㅈ' and etc to surrender the game.
10) No known bugs or cheats are allowed during game play.
Equipment and Other Rules
All players must arrive at the tournament venue no later than 15 minutes prior to the start of the game.
All players are allowed 15 minutes to adjust their personal settings.
All players are allowed to user their personal equipment.
The list of the personal equipment allowed is as follows:
1) Keyboard
2) Mouse
3) Mouse Pad
4) Mouse Stand
5) Earphone
6) Mouse Driver
Player must use the Wide LCD monitor provided by GOMTV. (Player is able to adjust the resolution or graphic option.)
Player must use the computer provided by GOMTV.
All players must put on the earphone first then put on the headset provided by GOMTV.
Game Pause and Replay Rules
When the player feels that a game should be paused, he or she should press the buzzer in the game booth immediately.
When the buzzer is pressed, the observer and the referee will pause the game.
A player is able to request for a pause under the following conditions:
1) When the equipment is not functioning or malfunctioning (Keyboard, Mouse, Monitor, PC and etc.)
2) When a major game related bug has been observed during the game play
3) When the game sound has been turned off and the player is able to hear the noise outside of the booth
4) When the player experiences other factors that he or she believes that might greatly affect the game play
If the game has been paused due to the reasons above, the host will resolve the issue and promptly resume the game.
In case one of the following events occurs, the game in play will be tossed out and the game will be replayed.
1) When the game is paused due to equipment malfunction, power outage, network error and etc that are required for the progress of the tournament
2) When the computer used by the player malfunctions or shuts down
3) When a game related bug that was previously unknown or clearly unintentional occurs
4) When the game play can no longer be continued due to the disturbance and noise caused by behaviors including trespassing on to the stage, throwing of stuff, violet languages or actions
5) When it becomes impossible to determine win or lose based on the content of the game play
6) When the game needs to be paused due to unavoidable circumstances such as natural disaster
7) In case the PCs of the referee and observer drop resulting in the inability to broadcast, the game should be resumed and the match result will be recognized if the players are still able to continue the game. The host and the referee are able to act flexibly depending on the situation
Automatic Loss Rule
When the friend log-in notification pops up during the game play
When the player receives a whisper (message) during the game play from another user (failure to set the status to busy)
Sending chat messages other than ‘GG’, ‘gg’, ‘ㅎㅎ’,'ㅈㅈ' to declare the loss during the game.
Displaying violent behaviors to threaten the opposing player or the audience.
Arriving at the tournament venue after 15 minutes prior to the start of the game.
Delaying games intentionally even after the allotted time (15 minutes) for personal settings.
Using known bugs and cheats during the game play.
Sorry but making up rules to punish something they don't like is certainly not what GOMtv wants to be known for neither does the Esports community as a whole.
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Naniwa's situation was not arbitrary at all. Koreans have had similar situations and gotten punished the same or harder.
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Without Goms "Arbitrary" rules no foreigner would have gotten Code A\S invites.
No they are not a problem. The problem is people being too butthurt when they don't like the rules
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On December 15 2011 05:17 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:12 Velocirapture wrote:On December 15 2011 04:44 Papulatus wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
"found unfit to be a gamer" - What does this mean? I don't see how Nani is "unfit to be a gamer" "players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and put Nani is a tough situation. The games would have been sub-par if the games were worthless. If anything, Gom apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work. I think this is just a major cultural disconnect. It seems Koreans look at progaming much more in terms of honor, while foreigners look at it as a profession. I literally LOL when i read all these posts about how the game was "meaningless". THis was a hyped match with tons of viewers. The content that could have been derived from a well played fourth match is FAR from meaningless. The only reasonable arguments that can be made about the Naniwa issue are about the severity of the punishment. Naniwa messed up and GOM is within their rights to punish him. How they went about it seemed severe to me but then I cant think of an enforcable alternative I like. That's the thing. Sports are self-serving and the entertainment factor is only the effect. Not the cause. The players are the agents. Your perspective is different from the player like in Johan's case. He only wants to win. Nothing more; nothing less. Lost opportunity, well tough. To him, the game was meaningless and he decided not to show up like countless other players who don't want to be in those type of situations. Your opinion means nothing to the player. If you get entertainment out of it great. If not tough luck. They aren't there for you. They are there for themselves first and foremost. Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:07 o[twist] wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
they're not arbitrarily *making up* rules - they're arbitrarily *interpreting* rules that are conveniently vague Exactly. It's a pragmatic problem.It's a terrible rule and it should be re-written promptly before any player and audience member can abuse it again. The player's association should be downright dumbfounded that such a rule exists in that vague form.
This is exactly the childish perspective that needs to be done away with. Thank you for making my point.
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On December 15 2011 06:59 windsupernova wrote:
Without Goms "Aribitrary" rules no foreigner would have gotten Code A\S invites.
No they are not a problem. The problem is people being too butthurt when they don't like the rules
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Ok, does it say anywhere in the rules that you can't kill your opponent? I mean, literally kill them. Because if it doesn't the fuck the fact that it screws with normal human behaviour and common sense, go ahead and do.
Gom did the right thing. Please, get over yourselves.
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On December 15 2011 07:00 Velocirapture wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 05:17 StarStruck wrote:On December 15 2011 05:12 Velocirapture wrote:On December 15 2011 04:44 Papulatus wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
"found unfit to be a gamer" - What does this mean? I don't see how Nani is "unfit to be a gamer" "players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and put Nani is a tough situation. The games would have been sub-par if the games were worthless. If anything, Gom apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work. I think this is just a major cultural disconnect. It seems Koreans look at progaming much more in terms of honor, while foreigners look at it as a profession. I literally LOL when i read all these posts about how the game was "meaningless". THis was a hyped match with tons of viewers. The content that could have been derived from a well played fourth match is FAR from meaningless. The only reasonable arguments that can be made about the Naniwa issue are about the severity of the punishment. Naniwa messed up and GOM is within their rights to punish him. How they went about it seemed severe to me but then I cant think of an enforcable alternative I like. That's the thing. Sports are self-serving and the entertainment factor is only the effect. Not the cause. The players are the agents. Your perspective is different from the player like in Johan's case. He only wants to win. Nothing more; nothing less. Lost opportunity, well tough. To him, the game was meaningless and he decided not to show up like countless other players who don't want to be in those type of situations. Your opinion means nothing to the player. If you get entertainment out of it great. If not tough luck. They aren't there for you. They are there for themselves first and foremost. On December 15 2011 05:07 o[twist] wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
they're not arbitrarily *making up* rules - they're arbitrarily *interpreting* rules that are conveniently vague Exactly. It's a pragmatic problem.It's a terrible rule and it should be re-written promptly before any player and audience member can abuse it again. The player's association should be downright dumbfounded that such a rule exists in that vague form. This is exactly the childish perspective that needs to be done away with. Thank you for making my point.
I would like to know how that is a childish perspective, in your normal life do you get punished for rules that dont exist then take the punishment?
It's funny to see all the people arguing that this harsh of a punishment was justified for something so trivial.
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On December 14 2011 20:12 Soma.bokforlag wrote:
I think we all were happy when GOM decided to get more foreigners into GSL, with the alotted "4 spots" that was presented before haypro, ret, moonglade and huk got their initial invites. However, there were always questionmarks, how was these players decided? Why werent other players with more skill chosen? But who cared, foreigners were playing against koreans in korea and it was all very exciting!
Since then alot of things have happened though, alot of foreigners go to korea and are seeded in code a based on nothing at all, others come 15th in MLG and then go 2-3 months later.. since there seems to be no agreement of wich GSL you go to when doing well at MLG. Now most lately Morrow gets a free spot based on "his accomplishments in SC2" or something like that. We were many that were glad when MLG and GSL started cooperationg, it seemed that all this randomness would end and that the players getting seeds would be deserving of them. This didn't happen. We are still in the seat we were a year ago and GSL seems less and less professional and more and more desperate to get foreigners. Alot of players go there, compete in code a, qualify for next months tournament and then leave.. it seems like theres no planning from GSL at all.
Now gom have invented a rule that lets them kick out Naniwa because they say he only wants money, and is not professional. This is completely based on the korean netizens reactions, and has nothing to do with what happened in the game. If korean players and netizens would have laughed at it as a stupid thing to do, gom wouldnt have taken Naniwas code-s spot away from him. In other words, noone knew the ruling before the reaction from the korean netizens.. this is the definition of being unprofessional. Inventing rules/interpreting them as wanted to comply to what some fans want.
More skill, less arbitrary popularity contests. please.
PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE POST, NOT JUST THE PART ABOUT NANIWA
this kind of seems like a hate thread on GOMtv and how you think they're unprofessional because you have no idea what they do.
1) why weren't other players with more skill chosen? I dont think it's all based on skill when it comes to pickin foreigners in a fairly new tournament. They probably pick them based on fanbase, sc1 experience, and sc2 beta accomplishments. I do agree it was very exciting.
2) just because you dont know the process they use to seed players into code a doesnt meant its based on NOTHING. Almost every professional sc2 player wants to be in Korea playing in the GSL CODE S, but not all are able. Some dont have to skill, the determination, or the money/sponsorship. So some of them stay at home and work hard until they are either invited and seeded in code A/ code S or go through the open brackets themselves and EARN their own code A spot. The first part is easier , we all know the open brackets are insane. Some players can't handle living in korea and practicing 10 hrs a day, while others can't afford to stay long unless they qualify. Huk is an example of what it takes to stay in korea and compete in the GSL. He respects the game, the players, the team, the coaches, and mostly himself. He lives with and tries to communicate with his teammates and are now good friends with them. He practices hard everyday and because he's such good friends with housemates, they probably help him out a ton. Players who arent as friendly or close probably wont get much help.
3) They didnt JUST invent the rule for Naniwa, are you kidding me? How can you say that they only punished Naniwa because Korean netizens and players reacted to it? This isnt a community where people dont speak up about how they feel, and its not why they punished him. This is a professional thing to do because he's being used as an example; when you do dumb things, you get punished for it. Example, NFL, players get fined for unsportsmanlike conduct because they are being used as an example.
and for your last sentence, better players? you just think the players you watch and love are better than the ones at GSL, which is probably untrue and biased. You also probably dont know what biased means.
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On December 15 2011 07:04 Phizix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 07:00 Velocirapture wrote:On December 15 2011 05:17 StarStruck wrote:On December 15 2011 05:12 Velocirapture wrote:On December 15 2011 04:44 Papulatus wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
"found unfit to be a gamer" - What does this mean? I don't see how Nani is "unfit to be a gamer" "players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and put Nani is a tough situation. The games would have been sub-par if the games were worthless. If anything, Gom apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work. I think this is just a major cultural disconnect. It seems Koreans look at progaming much more in terms of honor, while foreigners look at it as a profession. I literally LOL when i read all these posts about how the game was "meaningless". THis was a hyped match with tons of viewers. The content that could have been derived from a well played fourth match is FAR from meaningless. The only reasonable arguments that can be made about the Naniwa issue are about the severity of the punishment. Naniwa messed up and GOM is within their rights to punish him. How they went about it seemed severe to me but then I cant think of an enforcable alternative I like. That's the thing. Sports are self-serving and the entertainment factor is only the effect. Not the cause. The players are the agents. Your perspective is different from the player like in Johan's case. He only wants to win. Nothing more; nothing less. Lost opportunity, well tough. To him, the game was meaningless and he decided not to show up like countless other players who don't want to be in those type of situations. Your opinion means nothing to the player. If you get entertainment out of it great. If not tough luck. They aren't there for you. They are there for themselves first and foremost. On December 15 2011 05:07 o[twist] wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
they're not arbitrarily *making up* rules - they're arbitrarily *interpreting* rules that are conveniently vague Exactly. It's a pragmatic problem.It's a terrible rule and it should be re-written promptly before any player and audience member can abuse it again. The player's association should be downright dumbfounded that such a rule exists in that vague form. This is exactly the childish perspective that needs to be done away with. Thank you for making my point. I would like to know how that is a childish perspective, in your normal life do you get punished for rules that dont exist then take the punishment? It's funny to see all the people arguing that this harsh of a punishment was justified for something so trivial.
He plays to win and yet forfeits games? And his perspective is childish; he doesn't care about the viewers, the tournament, or the other player, the only reason he makes money from this game is because of the viewers, he shouldn't forget that.
And he already has a bad reputation, so he should be a lot more careful. When he trash talks every player and every tournament one of them is bound to put their foot down eventually.
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Taug I think nailed it better than anyone else has.
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what about when a professional football team rests its starters at the end of the season? Say the team has clinch a 1st round bye in the playoffs or has no shot of even making the playoffs? Does the Commissioner ban the team from the next season of competition? Hell no. This is bullshit. I don't agree with what Naniwa did, but the game was as meaningless as a football game is in the above situations. Sure, some fans aren't going to like it, but he had the right to do what he did and people need to chill. You don't have to like it. GOM doesn't have to like it. Hell, I don't like the way Naniwa carries himself at times, but we ought not to force him to act like some mindless robot that just plays out games because they are scheduled and people have paid for tickets.
Is GOM within their legal right to do what they did? Most certainly, but I will restate that it's bullshit. Sure, the GSL is in Korea and Koreans apparently have some altered sense of right/wrong, but they are trying to enforce some kind of conformity on the players that I don't agree with. If they want foreigners to play, then they ought to be willing to accept foreigners as foreigners. StarCraft does not equal Korea. It may have the biggest market, it may have the history, but the days of a StarCraft market based solely in Korea are gone and I believe that one day the spotlight will land on another part of the world. If GOM and others want the e-sports scene to continue to blossom, then they ought to rethink their stance. As a "foreigner," I will favor foreign tournaments over the GSL if this trend continues. The world changes, keep up or become obsolete. That and change the format of the tournament so something like this doesn't happen to begin with.
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On December 15 2011 07:24 CaptainAmerica wrote:
what about when a professional football team rests its starters at the end of the season? Say the team has clinch a 1st round bye in the playoffs or has no shot of even making the playoffs? Does the Commissioner ban the team from the next season of competition? Hell no. This is bullshit. I don't agree with what Naniwa did, but the game was as meaningless as a football game is in the above situations. Sure, some fans aren't going to like it, but he had the right to do what he did and people need to chill. You don't have to like it. GOM doesn't have to like it. Hell, I don't like the way Naniwa carries himself at times, but we ought not to force him to act like some mindless robot that just plays out games because they are scheduled and people have paid for tickets.
Is GOM within their legal right to do what they did? Most certainly, but I will restate that it's bullshit. Sure, the GSL is in Korea and Koreans apparently have some altered sense of right/wrong, but they are trying to enforce some kind of conformity on the players that I don't agree with. If they want foreigners to play, then they ought to be willing to accept foreigners as foreigners. StarCraft does not equal Korea. It may have the biggest market, it may have the history, but the days of a StarCraft market based solely in Korea are gone and I believe that one day the spotlight will land on another part of the world. If GOM and others want the e-sports scene to continue to blossom, then they ought to rethink their stance. As a "foreigner," I will favor foreign tournaments over the GSL if this trend continues. The world changes, keep up or become obsolete. That and change the format of the tournament so something like this doesn't happen to begin with.
LOL, you probably didnt read Naniwa's apology yet. Also if you're goin to relate this to football, you should pretend this is a playoff game. It's a best of the best players tournament, so i think you should compare this to a playoff game. If YOUR team, lets say its the Steelers, if they are losing by 20-30 pts, should they give up? Should they just hand the ball over to the other team and let them run for the touchdown? NAH, they play their balls out cause they're in the playsoffs while 20+ other teams are at home wishing they were in that spot. THE PLAYOFFS which they worked their ass off in the LAST 17 weeks to get to.
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On December 15 2011 07:04 Phizix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 07:00 Velocirapture wrote:On December 15 2011 05:17 StarStruck wrote:On December 15 2011 05:12 Velocirapture wrote:On December 15 2011 04:44 Papulatus wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
"found unfit to be a gamer" - What does this mean? I don't see how Nani is "unfit to be a gamer" "players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and put Nani is a tough situation. The games would have been sub-par if the games were worthless. If anything, Gom apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work. I think this is just a major cultural disconnect. It seems Koreans look at progaming much more in terms of honor, while foreigners look at it as a profession. I literally LOL when i read all these posts about how the game was "meaningless". THis was a hyped match with tons of viewers. The content that could have been derived from a well played fourth match is FAR from meaningless. The only reasonable arguments that can be made about the Naniwa issue are about the severity of the punishment. Naniwa messed up and GOM is within their rights to punish him. How they went about it seemed severe to me but then I cant think of an enforcable alternative I like. That's the thing. Sports are self-serving and the entertainment factor is only the effect. Not the cause. The players are the agents. Your perspective is different from the player like in Johan's case. He only wants to win. Nothing more; nothing less. Lost opportunity, well tough. To him, the game was meaningless and he decided not to show up like countless other players who don't want to be in those type of situations. Your opinion means nothing to the player. If you get entertainment out of it great. If not tough luck. They aren't there for you. They are there for themselves first and foremost. On December 15 2011 05:07 o[twist] wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
they're not arbitrarily *making up* rules - they're arbitrarily *interpreting* rules that are conveniently vague Exactly. It's a pragmatic problem.It's a terrible rule and it should be re-written promptly before any player and audience member can abuse it again. The player's association should be downright dumbfounded that such a rule exists in that vague form. This is exactly the childish perspective that needs to be done away with. Thank you for making my point. I would like to know how that is a childish perspective, in your normal life do you get punished for rules that dont exist then take the punishment? It's funny to see all the people arguing that this harsh of a punishment was justified for something so trivial.
Yes, if i start acting like a douchebag in a restaurant they have the right to kick me out if they want. And I didn't sign any contract with the restaurant.
Millions of examples of unwritten rules just think
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On December 15 2011 07:36 Taug wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 07:24 CaptainAmerica wrote:
what about when a professional football team rests its starters at the end of the season? Say the team has clinch a 1st round bye in the playoffs or has no shot of even making the playoffs? Does the Commissioner ban the team from the next season of competition? Hell no. This is bullshit. I don't agree with what Naniwa did, but the game was as meaningless as a football game is in the above situations. Sure, some fans aren't going to like it, but he had the right to do what he did and people need to chill. You don't have to like it. GOM doesn't have to like it. Hell, I don't like the way Naniwa carries himself at times, but we ought not to force him to act like some mindless robot that just plays out games because they are scheduled and people have paid for tickets.
Is GOM within their legal right to do what they did? Most certainly, but I will restate that it's bullshit. Sure, the GSL is in Korea and Koreans apparently have some altered sense of right/wrong, but they are trying to enforce some kind of conformity on the players that I don't agree with. If they want foreigners to play, then they ought to be willing to accept foreigners as foreigners. StarCraft does not equal Korea. It may have the biggest market, it may have the history, but the days of a StarCraft market based solely in Korea are gone and I believe that one day the spotlight will land on another part of the world. If GOM and others want the e-sports scene to continue to blossom, then they ought to rethink their stance. As a "foreigner," I will favor foreign tournaments over the GSL if this trend continues. The world changes, keep up or become obsolete. That and change the format of the tournament so something like this doesn't happen to begin with. LOL, you probably didnt read Naniwa's apology yet. Also if you're goin to relate this to football, you should pretend this is a playoff game. It's a best of the best players tournament, so i think you should compare this to a playoff game. If YOUR team, lets say its the Steelers, if they are losing by 20-30 pts, should they give up? Should they just hand the ball over to the other team and let them run for the touchdown? NAH, they play their balls out cause they're in the playsoffs while 20+ other teams are at home wishing they were in that spot. THE PLAYOFFS which they worked their ass off in the LAST 17 weeks to get to.
Happens all the time in running in the olympics.
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On December 15 2011 07:39 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 07:04 Phizix wrote:On December 15 2011 07:00 Velocirapture wrote:On December 15 2011 05:17 StarStruck wrote:On December 15 2011 05:12 Velocirapture wrote:On December 15 2011 04:44 Papulatus wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
"found unfit to be a gamer" - What does this mean? I don't see how Nani is "unfit to be a gamer" "players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and put Nani is a tough situation. The games would have been sub-par if the games were worthless. If anything, Gom apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work. I think this is just a major cultural disconnect. It seems Koreans look at progaming much more in terms of honor, while foreigners look at it as a profession. I literally LOL when i read all these posts about how the game was "meaningless". THis was a hyped match with tons of viewers. The content that could have been derived from a well played fourth match is FAR from meaningless. The only reasonable arguments that can be made about the Naniwa issue are about the severity of the punishment. Naniwa messed up and GOM is within their rights to punish him. How they went about it seemed severe to me but then I cant think of an enforcable alternative I like. That's the thing. Sports are self-serving and the entertainment factor is only the effect. Not the cause. The players are the agents. Your perspective is different from the player like in Johan's case. He only wants to win. Nothing more; nothing less. Lost opportunity, well tough. To him, the game was meaningless and he decided not to show up like countless other players who don't want to be in those type of situations. Your opinion means nothing to the player. If you get entertainment out of it great. If not tough luck. They aren't there for you. They are there for themselves first and foremost. On December 15 2011 05:07 o[twist] wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
they're not arbitrarily *making up* rules - they're arbitrarily *interpreting* rules that are conveniently vague Exactly. It's a pragmatic problem.It's a terrible rule and it should be re-written promptly before any player and audience member can abuse it again. The player's association should be downright dumbfounded that such a rule exists in that vague form. This is exactly the childish perspective that needs to be done away with. Thank you for making my point. I would like to know how that is a childish perspective, in your normal life do you get punished for rules that dont exist then take the punishment? It's funny to see all the people arguing that this harsh of a punishment was justified for something so trivial. Yes, if i start acting like a douchebag in a restaurant they have the right to kick me out if they want. And I didn't sign any contract with the restaurant. Millions of examples of unwritten rules just think
the reason they have the right to kick you out is because it has been explicitly deemed part of a property right. it's not unwritten.
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The only sport you can directly compare this to is Association Football, because it too has group stage matches where games can be very irrelevant: FIFA World Cup. If you think for one moment two national teams that are 0-2-0 in the group stage aren't going to give it their all regardless of the implications of the match, you're silly. There are people who will get injured in these matches but who will nonetheless give it their all regardless of the minimal fruits of victory. It's a pride thing and it has a direct comparison to the type of organization the GSL wants to be.
Naniwa was representing the foreign community, his team and the spirit of Sweden. He was facing off against an individual whom people have regarded as either the very best Zerg player in the world or an individual amongst its top flight. Instead of being mature, he instead went into a country that takes the spirit of competition serious and made one more bad decision in a long line of them. I can only imagine that last part probably plays a significant, though unmentioned role in the GSL's decision.
What Naniwa did was reason enough but let's be honest: Naniwa isn't a good individual. He's immature, he's rude and he's very selfish. People don't shuffle from one team to the next with such alarming frequency for no reason and the comments from former teammates who are usually reserved individuals don't just come up without cause. Naniwa needs to learn a valuable lesson here: the silliness and immaturity needs to stop. Each recurring incident will not be judged solely on its merits, but instead will be added to the long list of grievances perceived by the community as a whole. You cannot go through life being a shithead and not expect people to latch onto every bad thing you do, regardless of significance.
That time for Naniwa is now. People are tired of him, the organizations are tired of him and it's quite obvious from listening to State of the Game and to the various casters that when they say they're tired of certain players that they will soon out as being needed to be taken care of, they're speaking of Naniwa. More power to them.
Excellent decision, excellent work. To the people who are saying they won't purchase a GSL subscription, I call bullshit. It's so easy to write something on the internet and for a bunch of people with less than 20 or 30 posts to flood a message board with that kind of speech is inappropriate. The numbers will speak for themselves. If you're going to post about how you're not purchasing something, you should do it with a little more tact than the outright disdain and anger filled with bombastic language you are doing it with.
GSL and GomTV have done so much for StarCraft 2 and have provided the best production and tournament for a year; they deserve a little more than outright derision from such fairweather fans.
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On December 15 2011 07:56 o[twist] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 07:39 windsupernova wrote:On December 15 2011 07:04 Phizix wrote:On December 15 2011 07:00 Velocirapture wrote:On December 15 2011 05:17 StarStruck wrote:On December 15 2011 05:12 Velocirapture wrote:On December 15 2011 04:44 Papulatus wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
"found unfit to be a gamer" - What does this mean? I don't see how Nani is "unfit to be a gamer" "players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and put Nani is a tough situation. The games would have been sub-par if the games were worthless. If anything, Gom apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work. I think this is just a major cultural disconnect. It seems Koreans look at progaming much more in terms of honor, while foreigners look at it as a profession. I literally LOL when i read all these posts about how the game was "meaningless". THis was a hyped match with tons of viewers. The content that could have been derived from a well played fourth match is FAR from meaningless. The only reasonable arguments that can be made about the Naniwa issue are about the severity of the punishment. Naniwa messed up and GOM is within their rights to punish him. How they went about it seemed severe to me but then I cant think of an enforcable alternative I like. That's the thing. Sports are self-serving and the entertainment factor is only the effect. Not the cause. The players are the agents. Your perspective is different from the player like in Johan's case. He only wants to win. Nothing more; nothing less. Lost opportunity, well tough. To him, the game was meaningless and he decided not to show up like countless other players who don't want to be in those type of situations. Your opinion means nothing to the player. If you get entertainment out of it great. If not tough luck. They aren't there for you. They are there for themselves first and foremost. On December 15 2011 05:07 o[twist] wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
they're not arbitrarily *making up* rules - they're arbitrarily *interpreting* rules that are conveniently vague Exactly. It's a pragmatic problem.It's a terrible rule and it should be re-written promptly before any player and audience member can abuse it again. The player's association should be downright dumbfounded that such a rule exists in that vague form. This is exactly the childish perspective that needs to be done away with. Thank you for making my point. I would like to know how that is a childish perspective, in your normal life do you get punished for rules that dont exist then take the punishment? It's funny to see all the people arguing that this harsh of a punishment was justified for something so trivial. Yes, if i start acting like a douchebag in a restaurant they have the right to kick me out if they want. And I didn't sign any contract with the restaurant. Millions of examples of unwritten rules just think the reason they have the right to kick you out is because it has been explicitly deemed part of a property right. it's not unwritten.
GOM has a right to kick those they feel were rude.
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On December 15 2011 07:59 N1ghtshade wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 07:56 o[twist] wrote:On December 15 2011 07:39 windsupernova wrote:On December 15 2011 07:04 Phizix wrote:On December 15 2011 07:00 Velocirapture wrote:On December 15 2011 05:17 StarStruck wrote:On December 15 2011 05:12 Velocirapture wrote:On December 15 2011 04:44 Papulatus wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
"found unfit to be a gamer" - What does this mean? I don't see how Nani is "unfit to be a gamer" "players are not allowed any misconduct" How did Nani misconduct? He threw a game that was 100% meaningless. Gom fucked up the format and put Nani is a tough situation. The games would have been sub-par if the games were worthless. If anything, Gom apologizing for the fact that their system didn't work. I think this is just a major cultural disconnect. It seems Koreans look at progaming much more in terms of honor, while foreigners look at it as a profession. I literally LOL when i read all these posts about how the game was "meaningless". THis was a hyped match with tons of viewers. The content that could have been derived from a well played fourth match is FAR from meaningless. The only reasonable arguments that can be made about the Naniwa issue are about the severity of the punishment. Naniwa messed up and GOM is within their rights to punish him. How they went about it seemed severe to me but then I cant think of an enforcable alternative I like. That's the thing. Sports are self-serving and the entertainment factor is only the effect. Not the cause. The players are the agents. Your perspective is different from the player like in Johan's case. He only wants to win. Nothing more; nothing less. Lost opportunity, well tough. To him, the game was meaningless and he decided not to show up like countless other players who don't want to be in those type of situations. Your opinion means nothing to the player. If you get entertainment out of it great. If not tough luck. They aren't there for you. They are there for themselves first and foremost. On December 15 2011 05:07 o[twist] wrote:On December 15 2011 04:41 yawn wrote:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=141496Please take the time to actually look over the GSL rules before claiming that they are abitrarily making them up as they go. - GomTV can deny your participation if you are found unfit to be a gamer.
- Players are not allowed use bugs or commit any misconduct.
they're not arbitrarily *making up* rules - they're arbitrarily *interpreting* rules that are conveniently vague Exactly. It's a pragmatic problem.It's a terrible rule and it should be re-written promptly before any player and audience member can abuse it again. The player's association should be downright dumbfounded that such a rule exists in that vague form. This is exactly the childish perspective that needs to be done away with. Thank you for making my point. I would like to know how that is a childish perspective, in your normal life do you get punished for rules that dont exist then take the punishment? It's funny to see all the people arguing that this harsh of a punishment was justified for something so trivial. Yes, if i start acting like a douchebag in a restaurant they have the right to kick me out if they want. And I didn't sign any contract with the restaurant. Millions of examples of unwritten rules just think the reason they have the right to kick you out is because it has been explicitly deemed part of a property right. it's not unwritten. GOM has a right to kick those they feel were rude.
not from any document i've seen
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Well the thing is Naniwa wasn't kicked or banned.
GOM was going to give him a invitation to join Code S, not for his achievements.
The parallel would be if I was going to have a party, and was going to invite you, but then decided I didn't want to invite you.
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As for those parsing language and combing over previous announcements in an effort to pigeon-hole GomTV into looking guilty of stealing a Code S Spot, I can only say they'll do what they've been doing for the last 72 hours. Looking for the next excuse to get their favored player out of something that has nothing to do with what they think it does. If it isn't the poor translation handed down last evening, or how an admin misinformed him of cross positions, it's going to be something you people are going to attempt to justify his behavior with--or to allow him to continue on his disgusting path.
Everyone is guilty except him. Except, they're not. Organizations make mistakes. Leagues make mistakes. The GSL makes mistakes. The difference is, when they do it, they don't say "fuck you" and "joke tournament". They handle themselves with the tact that is required of such an organization. Naniwa doesn't. And it's about time you realized that just because he didn't break a specific rule, doesn't mean he gets to continue being a shithead. Nothing more need be said than that. He has repeatedly acted in an inappropriate manner and he is getting punished. Not in the future, right now.
You need to get over it and start telling your favored player to shape up. There doesn't need to be any other words than, "Naniwa acted poorly. He will not be in GSL Code S." You can connect the dots on how that works in whatever manner you want. Loss of spot or never being invited. Everyone wants to focus on the latter when the former is the only thing that matters.
He got what he deserved.
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I feel like the debate in this thread can never be even-handed and non-stilted, merely be the fact that the title of the post is already a really leading question -- it doesn't ask whether GOM's rules are arbitrary, but instead asserts they are arbitrary, and then asks if it is problematic.
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On December 15 2011 08:09 Desert Fox wrote:
As for those parsing language and combing over previous announcements in an effort to pigeon-hole GomTV into looking guilty of stealing a Code S Spot, I can only say they'll do what they've been doing for the last 72 hours. Looking for the next excuse to get their favored player out of something that has nothing to do with what they think it does. If it isn't the poor translation handed down last evening, or how an admin misinformed him of cross positions, it's going to be something you people are going to attempt to justify his behavior with--or to allow him to continue on his disgusting path.
Everyone is guilty except him. Except, they're not. Organizations make mistakes. Leagues make mistakes. The GSL makes mistakes. The difference is, when they do it, they don't say "fuck you" and "joke tournament". They handle themselves with the tact that is required of such an organization. Naniwa doesn't. And it's about time you realized that just because he didn't break a specific rule, doesn't mean he gets to continue being a shithead. Nothing more need be said than that. He has repeatedly acted in an inappropriate manner and he is getting punished. Not in the future, right now.
You need to get over it and start telling your favored player to shape up. There doesn't need to be any other words than, "Naniwa acted poorly. He will not be in GSL Code S." You can connect the dots on how that works in whatever manner you want. Loss of spot or never being invited. Everyone wants to focus on the latter when the former is the only thing that matters.
He got what he deserved.
Chorus of fanbois: BUT DESERTFOX THERE WERE NO WRITTEN RULES ABOUT PROBE RUSHING!1!
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On December 15 2011 08:09 Desert Fox wrote:
As for those parsing language and combing over previous announcements in an effort to pigeon-hole GomTV into looking guilty of stealing a Code S Spot, I can only say they'll do what they've been doing for the last 72 hours. Looking for the next excuse to get their favored player out of something that has nothing to do with what they think it does. If it isn't the poor translation handed down last evening, or how an admin misinformed him of cross positions, it's going to be something you people are going to attempt to justify his behavior with--or to allow him to continue on his disgusting path.
Everyone is guilty except him. Except, they're not. Organizations make mistakes. Leagues make mistakes. The GSL makes mistakes. The difference is, when they do it, they don't say "fuck you" and "joke tournament". They handle themselves with the tact that is required of such an organization. Naniwa doesn't. And it's about time you realized that just because he didn't break a specific rule, doesn't mean he gets to continue being a shithead. Nothing more need be said than that. He has repeatedly acted in an inappropriate manner and he is getting punished. Not in the future, right now.
You need to get over it and start telling your favored player to shape up. There doesn't need to be any other words than, "Naniwa acted poorly. He will not be in GSL Code S." You can connect the dots on how that works in whatever manner you want. Loss of spot or never being invited. Everyone wants to focus on the latter when the former is the only thing that matters.
He got what he deserved.
this is largely a strawman. i've seen very few people defending naniwa, although a few have done so cogently. i myself know next to nothing about him, and what i know isn't good. what i do know is that there's a lot of abuse of discretion in esports, and a lot of taking advantage of kids and young adults, and this situation is a great example of both of those. i'm much less concerned with naniwa than with gsl, and i think how gom conducts itself has much, much more bearing on the current and future state of esports than how naniwa conducts himself.
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On December 15 2011 08:16 o[twist] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:09 Desert Fox wrote:
As for those parsing language and combing over previous announcements in an effort to pigeon-hole GomTV into looking guilty of stealing a Code S Spot, I can only say they'll do what they've been doing for the last 72 hours. Looking for the next excuse to get their favored player out of something that has nothing to do with what they think it does. If it isn't the poor translation handed down last evening, or how an admin misinformed him of cross positions, it's going to be something you people are going to attempt to justify his behavior with--or to allow him to continue on his disgusting path.
Everyone is guilty except him. Except, they're not. Organizations make mistakes. Leagues make mistakes. The GSL makes mistakes. The difference is, when they do it, they don't say "fuck you" and "joke tournament". They handle themselves with the tact that is required of such an organization. Naniwa doesn't. And it's about time you realized that just because he didn't break a specific rule, doesn't mean he gets to continue being a shithead. Nothing more need be said than that. He has repeatedly acted in an inappropriate manner and he is getting punished. Not in the future, right now.
You need to get over it and start telling your favored player to shape up. There doesn't need to be any other words than, "Naniwa acted poorly. He will not be in GSL Code S." You can connect the dots on how that works in whatever manner you want. Loss of spot or never being invited. Everyone wants to focus on the latter when the former is the only thing that matters.
He got what he deserved. this is largely a strawman. i've seen very few people defending naniwa, although a few have done so cogently. i myself know next to nothing about him, and what i know isn't good. what i do know is that there's a lot of abuse of discretion in esports, and a lot of taking advantage of kids and young adults, and this situation is a great example of both of those. i'm much less concerned with naniwa than with gsl, and i think how gom conducts itself has much, much more bearing on the current and future state of esports than how naniwa conducts himself.
I agree with your statement that GOM's actions are more important here than Naniwa's.
Of course, I also think that GOM made a correct choice here, and that this action will very likely prevent future incidents, which benefits fans.
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Honestly, They are fair. Its not right to throw games....ever.
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On December 15 2011 08:13 N1ghtshade wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:09 Desert Fox wrote:
As for those parsing language and combing over previous announcements in an effort to pigeon-hole GomTV into looking guilty of stealing a Code S Spot, I can only say they'll do what they've been doing for the last 72 hours. Looking for the next excuse to get their favored player out of something that has nothing to do with what they think it does. If it isn't the poor translation handed down last evening, or how an admin misinformed him of cross positions, it's going to be something you people are going to attempt to justify his behavior with--or to allow him to continue on his disgusting path.
Everyone is guilty except him. Except, they're not. Organizations make mistakes. Leagues make mistakes. The GSL makes mistakes. The difference is, when they do it, they don't say "fuck you" and "joke tournament". They handle themselves with the tact that is required of such an organization. Naniwa doesn't. And it's about time you realized that just because he didn't break a specific rule, doesn't mean he gets to continue being a shithead. Nothing more need be said than that. He has repeatedly acted in an inappropriate manner and he is getting punished. Not in the future, right now.
You need to get over it and start telling your favored player to shape up. There doesn't need to be any other words than, "Naniwa acted poorly. He will not be in GSL Code S." You can connect the dots on how that works in whatever manner you want. Loss of spot or never being invited. Everyone wants to focus on the latter when the former is the only thing that matters.
He got what he deserved. Chorus of fanbois: BUT DESERTFOX THERE WERE NO WRITTEN RULES ABOUT PROBE RUSHING!1!
HE WAS OBVIOUSLY TRYING TO WIN. PROBE RUSH IS A LEGIT STRAT, EVEN IF YOU TAKE YOUR HANDS OFF THE KEYBOARD. WHY PUNISH HIM FOR USING A STRAT WITH LOW CHANCE TO WIN!!!
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Naniwa has had more than enough chances to become a decent human being. He has been an immature person for a very long time now. It seemed better for awhile but this is not very shocking.
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On December 15 2011 08:18 Trsjnica wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:16 o[twist] wrote:On December 15 2011 08:09 Desert Fox wrote:
As for those parsing language and combing over previous announcements in an effort to pigeon-hole GomTV into looking guilty of stealing a Code S Spot, I can only say they'll do what they've been doing for the last 72 hours. Looking for the next excuse to get their favored player out of something that has nothing to do with what they think it does. If it isn't the poor translation handed down last evening, or how an admin misinformed him of cross positions, it's going to be something you people are going to attempt to justify his behavior with--or to allow him to continue on his disgusting path.
Everyone is guilty except him. Except, they're not. Organizations make mistakes. Leagues make mistakes. The GSL makes mistakes. The difference is, when they do it, they don't say "fuck you" and "joke tournament". They handle themselves with the tact that is required of such an organization. Naniwa doesn't. And it's about time you realized that just because he didn't break a specific rule, doesn't mean he gets to continue being a shithead. Nothing more need be said than that. He has repeatedly acted in an inappropriate manner and he is getting punished. Not in the future, right now.
You need to get over it and start telling your favored player to shape up. There doesn't need to be any other words than, "Naniwa acted poorly. He will not be in GSL Code S." You can connect the dots on how that works in whatever manner you want. Loss of spot or never being invited. Everyone wants to focus on the latter when the former is the only thing that matters.
He got what he deserved. this is largely a strawman. i've seen very few people defending naniwa, although a few have done so cogently. i myself know next to nothing about him, and what i know isn't good. what i do know is that there's a lot of abuse of discretion in esports, and a lot of taking advantage of kids and young adults, and this situation is a great example of both of those. i'm much less concerned with naniwa than with gsl, and i think how gom conducts itself has much, much more bearing on the current and future state of esports than how naniwa conducts himself. I agree with your statement that GOM's actions are more important here than Naniwa's. Of course, I also think that GOM made a correct choice here, and that this action will very likely prevent future incidents, which benefits fans.
i think there's a good deal of room for disagreement about that, and i'm sure you've come to your position very reasonably. a lot of the arguments being bandied about, though - the idea that gom has unlimited authority to remove players at their discretion, the idea that everything gom says in their press releases about this will necessarily be true, the idea that because naniwa deserved this there hasn't been an abuse of discretion - a lot of those are bad.
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Contracts don't need to be written down to have legal value and to be enforced. Neither do contracts or rules need to state every possible scenario of violation.
It's a matter of common sense and interpretation of the entire set of rules. Saying Naniwa couldn't be punished because the exact thing he did wasn't anticipated and forbidden explicitly by any rule is absurd.
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On December 15 2011 08:26 Spekulatius wrote:
Contracts don't need to be written down to have legal value and to be enforced. Neither do contracts or rules need to state every possible scenario of violation.
It's a matter of common sense and interpretation of the entire set of rules. Saying Naniwa couldn't be punished because the exact thing he did wasn't anticipated and forbidden explicitly by any rule is absurd.
it's not a matter of common sense, but it is a matter of interpretation of the entire set of rules. however, nothing in the entire set of rules really seems to indicate that throwing a game with no impact would be disallowed, and if we had read through it before this incident i'm pretty sure most people would have agreed about that. words and phrases like "unfit for a progamer" and "offensive" and "abusive" (1) are vague and (2) have no history of being applied in this sort of situation. it's a general rule of interpretation that you have to give some sign of at least the kinds of incidents that you might be policing. otherwise, applying the rule in a certain situation is simply unfair. probe-rushing didn't have to be explicitly forbidden, but throwing a game could have been.
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On December 15 2011 08:25 o[twist] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:18 Trsjnica wrote:On December 15 2011 08:16 o[twist] wrote:On December 15 2011 08:09 Desert Fox wrote:
As for those parsing language and combing over previous announcements in an effort to pigeon-hole GomTV into looking guilty of stealing a Code S Spot, I can only say they'll do what they've been doing for the last 72 hours. Looking for the next excuse to get their favored player out of something that has nothing to do with what they think it does. If it isn't the poor translation handed down last evening, or how an admin misinformed him of cross positions, it's going to be something you people are going to attempt to justify his behavior with--or to allow him to continue on his disgusting path.
Everyone is guilty except him. Except, they're not. Organizations make mistakes. Leagues make mistakes. The GSL makes mistakes. The difference is, when they do it, they don't say "fuck you" and "joke tournament". They handle themselves with the tact that is required of such an organization. Naniwa doesn't. And it's about time you realized that just because he didn't break a specific rule, doesn't mean he gets to continue being a shithead. Nothing more need be said than that. He has repeatedly acted in an inappropriate manner and he is getting punished. Not in the future, right now.
You need to get over it and start telling your favored player to shape up. There doesn't need to be any other words than, "Naniwa acted poorly. He will not be in GSL Code S." You can connect the dots on how that works in whatever manner you want. Loss of spot or never being invited. Everyone wants to focus on the latter when the former is the only thing that matters.
He got what he deserved. this is largely a strawman. i've seen very few people defending naniwa, although a few have done so cogently. i myself know next to nothing about him, and what i know isn't good. what i do know is that there's a lot of abuse of discretion in esports, and a lot of taking advantage of kids and young adults, and this situation is a great example of both of those. i'm much less concerned with naniwa than with gsl, and i think how gom conducts itself has much, much more bearing on the current and future state of esports than how naniwa conducts himself. I agree with your statement that GOM's actions are more important here than Naniwa's. Of course, I also think that GOM made a correct choice here, and that this action will very likely prevent future incidents, which benefits fans. i think there's a good deal of room for disagreement about that, and i'm sure you've come to your position very reasonably. a lot of the arguments being bandied about, though - the idea that gom has unlimited authority to remove players at their discretion, the idea that everything gom says in their press releases about this will necessarily be true, the idea that because naniwa deserved this there hasn't been an abuse of discretion - a lot of those are bad.
I suspect GOM (in their contracts/etc) has unlimited authority to remove people, legally speaking. However, I agree that people would and should be outraged if GOM actually exercised this authority and booted people for little or no reason.
I agree that GOM's press release is definitely putting a spin on this, and it is unclear whether that spin is true or not. (Certainly, they had nor previously announced the Code S foreigner seeding methods that were in their press release, and we will never really know if they would have used those methods without this incident.)
I do think that, if you believe Naniwa deserved this, there was not an abuse of discretion though. It seems within GOM's power to penalize people for actions they take in other Starcraft 2 games, especially games that take place on the GOM stage. Whether this action is worthy of such a penalty is open to debate, of course.
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this is largely a strawman. i've seen very few people defending naniwa, although a few have done so cogently. i myself know next to nothing about him, and what i know isn't good. what i do know is that there's a lot of abuse of discretion in esports, and a lot of taking advantage of kids and young adults, and this situation is a great example of both of those. i'm much less concerned with naniwa than with gsl, and i think how gom conducts itself has much, much more bearing on the current and future state of esports than how naniwa conducts himself.
Ah yes, dropping the straw man. See, this is the kind of thought process that goes into defending Naniwa. I can't see on page 47, paragraph E that acting like a dickhead repeatedly for an entire year results in me being treated differently so what you're doing is unjust and unfair. I don't get why because I operate in this black and white world where everything needs to be codified, documented and where rules are rigidly adhered to.
But once you do invent rules for every single little thing, you're an authoritarian mess incapable of letting minor grievances slide and boy do I really hate you.
Stop the philosophy. Stop the attempt to compartmentalize what has occurred. Sometimes, people just get tired of dealing with people. I'm thinking this is one of those times and organizations need to have those vague rules and obscure definitions to take care of them. If people view what they did as inappropriate, their money will do the talking. From the feel of the landscape, a majority of the people didn't view this as an overreach.
At the same time, I think it's good that people do at least throw out there that there is an element of "Haha, I see what you did there to get this done" and to keep them honest about it. They used that discretion for good. When they do it for bad, we'll let them know.
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On December 15 2011 08:31 o[twist] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:26 Spekulatius wrote:
Contracts don't need to be written down to have legal value and to be enforced. Neither do contracts or rules need to state every possible scenario of violation.
It's a matter of common sense and interpretation of the entire set of rules. Saying Naniwa couldn't be punished because the exact thing he did wasn't anticipated and forbidden explicitly by any rule is absurd. it's not a matter of common sense, but it is a matter of interpretation of the entire set of rules. however, nothing in the entire set of rules really seems to indicate that throwing a game with no impact would be disallowed, and if we had read through it before this incident i'm pretty sure most people would have agreed about that. words and phrases like "unfit for a progamer" and "offensive" and "abusive" (1) are vague and (2) have no history of being applied in this sort of situation. it's a general rule of interpretation that you have to give some sign of at least the kinds of incidents that you might be policing. otherwise, applying the rule in a certain situation is simply unfair. probe-rushing didn't have to be explicitly forbidden, but throwing a game could have been.
In my post, I refrained from taking position to the whole debate. I just wanted to throw in some food for thought from a legal point of view.
We can agree on the list of rules compiled by GomTV being bad because they're far from exhaustive and sometimes don't even hint to what they might consider a violation of terms.
"Unfit for a progamer" really is a very vague term and should be replaced immediately.
And again, it was never about probe-rushing itself, but the mindset behind it that it revealed.
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the correct answer to this thread is no.
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He threw the game, you can't throw games. What's there to talk about?
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On December 14 2011 20:13 baoluvboa wrote:
If a Korean did it, he would be finished.
This, you have to set standards and stick to them =P.
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On December 15 2011 08:35 Nagano wrote:
He threw the game, you can't throw games. What's there to talk about?
A lot of people throw games but you don't care because they gave you lip service. That's hypocritical and that is why there is a lot to talk about.
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On December 15 2011 08:34 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:31 o[twist] wrote:On December 15 2011 08:26 Spekulatius wrote:
Contracts don't need to be written down to have legal value and to be enforced. Neither do contracts or rules need to state every possible scenario of violation.
It's a matter of common sense and interpretation of the entire set of rules. Saying Naniwa couldn't be punished because the exact thing he did wasn't anticipated and forbidden explicitly by any rule is absurd. it's not a matter of common sense, but it is a matter of interpretation of the entire set of rules. however, nothing in the entire set of rules really seems to indicate that throwing a game with no impact would be disallowed, and if we had read through it before this incident i'm pretty sure most people would have agreed about that. words and phrases like "unfit for a progamer" and "offensive" and "abusive" (1) are vague and (2) have no history of being applied in this sort of situation. it's a general rule of interpretation that you have to give some sign of at least the kinds of incidents that you might be policing. otherwise, applying the rule in a certain situation is simply unfair. probe-rushing didn't have to be explicitly forbidden, but throwing a game could have been. In my post, I refrained from taking position to the whole debate. I just wanted to throw in some food for thought from a legal point of view. We can agree on the list of rules compiled by GomTV being bad because they're far from exhaustive and sometimes don't even hint to what they might consider a violation of terms. "Unfit for a progamer" really is a very vague term and should be replaced immediately. And again, it was never about probe-rushing itself, but the mindset behind it that it revealed.
From a legal point of view, this is just a rules versus standards debate, if you're familiar with such debates.
It is difficult for anyone to foresee every possible set of circumstances or potential problem, and to formulate rules ahead of time that address every possible problem.
I do agree that GOM's rules are not exhaustive, however, I don't necessarily believe we can permanently cure that problem.
The majority of professional sports have a vague rule about "unsportsmanlike conduct" or some such--because it is difficult to imagine every possible way an athlete could be unsportsmanlike ahead of time. This rule serves much the same function.
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In my post, I refrained from taking position to the whole debate. I just wanted to throw in some food for thought from a legal point of view.
We can agree on the list of rules compiled by GomTV being bad because they're far from exhaustive and sometimes don't even hint to what they might consider a violation of terms.
"Unfit for a progamer" really is a very vague term and should be replaced immediately.
And again, it was never about probe-rushing itself, but the mindset behind it that it revealed.
Disagree, for reasons mentioned above. If you outline everything to the T that cannot be done, you'll just have assholes who adhere to those rules who search for that area not covered to misbehave. Then when they misbehave, the organization needs to invent a new rule; the process is repeated endlessly. This isn't a country and this isn't a democracy. It's a flexible organization that has designed a fair means to take care of bad apples who aren't good for their business model.
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On December 14 2011 20:21 zeru wrote:
Ignoring the whole naniwa situation, and if what they did was wrong/right.
GOM need a bigger more detailed rules collection. Right now they are just making things up for every situation: Choya, Rain/Idra, Byun, Kyrix, Giving random people who dont deserve it/have earned it code A/S spots.
It's silly really.
/Agreed
There need to be more clearer and detailed rules.
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On December 15 2011 08:31 Trsjnica wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:25 o[twist] wrote:On December 15 2011 08:18 Trsjnica wrote:On December 15 2011 08:16 o[twist] wrote:On December 15 2011 08:09 Desert Fox wrote:
As for those parsing language and combing over previous announcements in an effort to pigeon-hole GomTV into looking guilty of stealing a Code S Spot, I can only say they'll do what they've been doing for the last 72 hours. Looking for the next excuse to get their favored player out of something that has nothing to do with what they think it does. If it isn't the poor translation handed down last evening, or how an admin misinformed him of cross positions, it's going to be something you people are going to attempt to justify his behavior with--or to allow him to continue on his disgusting path.
Everyone is guilty except him. Except, they're not. Organizations make mistakes. Leagues make mistakes. The GSL makes mistakes. The difference is, when they do it, they don't say "fuck you" and "joke tournament". They handle themselves with the tact that is required of such an organization. Naniwa doesn't. And it's about time you realized that just because he didn't break a specific rule, doesn't mean he gets to continue being a shithead. Nothing more need be said than that. He has repeatedly acted in an inappropriate manner and he is getting punished. Not in the future, right now.
You need to get over it and start telling your favored player to shape up. There doesn't need to be any other words than, "Naniwa acted poorly. He will not be in GSL Code S." You can connect the dots on how that works in whatever manner you want. Loss of spot or never being invited. Everyone wants to focus on the latter when the former is the only thing that matters.
He got what he deserved. this is largely a strawman. i've seen very few people defending naniwa, although a few have done so cogently. i myself know next to nothing about him, and what i know isn't good. what i do know is that there's a lot of abuse of discretion in esports, and a lot of taking advantage of kids and young adults, and this situation is a great example of both of those. i'm much less concerned with naniwa than with gsl, and i think how gom conducts itself has much, much more bearing on the current and future state of esports than how naniwa conducts himself. I agree with your statement that GOM's actions are more important here than Naniwa's. Of course, I also think that GOM made a correct choice here, and that this action will very likely prevent future incidents, which benefits fans. i think there's a good deal of room for disagreement about that, and i'm sure you've come to your position very reasonably. a lot of the arguments being bandied about, though - the idea that gom has unlimited authority to remove players at their discretion, the idea that everything gom says in their press releases about this will necessarily be true, the idea that because naniwa deserved this there hasn't been an abuse of discretion - a lot of those are bad. I suspect GOM (in their contracts/etc) has unlimited authority to remove people, legally speaking. However, I agree that people would and should be outraged if GOM actually exercised this authority and booted people for little or no reason. I agree that GOM's press release is definitely putting a spin on this, and it is unclear whether that spin is true or not. (Certainly, they had nor previously announced the Code S foreigner seeding methods that were in their press release, and we will never really know if they would have used those methods without this incident.) I do think that, if you believe Naniwa deserved this, there was not an abuse of discretion though. It seems within GOM's power to penalize people for actions they take in other Starcraft 2 games, especially games that take place on the GOM stage. Whether this action is worthy of such a penalty is open to debate, of course.
i don't really agree with that (although you're not being at all unreasonable).
my issue is that, in contract law, you're not really allowed to make a contract that doesn't require you to perform your side of the bargain. that's not a contract at all. so it's impossible that gom could have had unlimited authority to remove people, because then they wouldn't have given mlg anything. there would have been no contract in the first place. the contract would basically be like
1. We'll give spots to your two best players or whatever
2. Unless we don't feel like it
if it's removal for some sort of cause, we end up going back to the specific language, and i still feel that the rules we've seen are way too vague to be applicable in this case. "offensive" and "abusive" behaviors seem to be things like saying fuck you on chat, and conduct "unfit for a progamer", well, i don't really know what that means, because i don't really have high standards for progamer conduct, just for progamer gaming ability.
on the other hand, this is one place where the cultural norms might come in. it could be that, in korea, this is exactly the sort of thing that would be deemed "offensive" or "unfit for a progamer." my humble opinion is that it's not what they had in mind and it's not what you would expect when you read the rules. those sound like rules about bm to me and this just doesn't seem like your standard case of bm. the statements made by mr. chae and gom also go against the kind of attitude i want to see in a gaming organization. i would much rather see them say "we want to compensate our progamers well and make them comfortable" as opposed to "a real progamer doesn't play for the money." that's a great way to justify exactly the sorts of conditions that many young athletes and gamers operate under, and those conditions are not fair.
overall i see a lot of strange deference to authority in the reaction to this. why would one trust gom's press release when they're a party to the disagreement? why would one assume the people running the tournament can just dole out whatever punishment they want? mr. chae's statements seemed to suggest he wanted a naniwa that acted like an adult rather than a teenager, but at the same time they seem to want to be able to treat progamers like children. and abuse of discretion and abuse of authority fall right into that mold.
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Are GOMs rules (removed your opinion about them being arbitary, because I do not feel they are) becoming a problem?
No, they are not becoming a problem.
The situations you have listed were handled correctly.
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Does anyone know what the wording is for GOM's rules regarding thrown games? It's pretty obvious he threw the game, but it's equally obvious that there wasn't a financial motive or anything sinister behind it.
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On December 15 2011 08:34 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:31 o[twist] wrote:On December 15 2011 08:26 Spekulatius wrote:
Contracts don't need to be written down to have legal value and to be enforced. Neither do contracts or rules need to state every possible scenario of violation.
It's a matter of common sense and interpretation of the entire set of rules. Saying Naniwa couldn't be punished because the exact thing he did wasn't anticipated and forbidden explicitly by any rule is absurd. it's not a matter of common sense, but it is a matter of interpretation of the entire set of rules. however, nothing in the entire set of rules really seems to indicate that throwing a game with no impact would be disallowed, and if we had read through it before this incident i'm pretty sure most people would have agreed about that. words and phrases like "unfit for a progamer" and "offensive" and "abusive" (1) are vague and (2) have no history of being applied in this sort of situation. it's a general rule of interpretation that you have to give some sign of at least the kinds of incidents that you might be policing. otherwise, applying the rule in a certain situation is simply unfair. probe-rushing didn't have to be explicitly forbidden, but throwing a game could have been. In my post, I refrained from taking position to the whole debate. I just wanted to throw in some food for thought from a legal point of view. We can agree on the list of rules compiled by GomTV being bad because they're far from exhaustive and sometimes don't even hint to what they might consider a violation of terms. "Unfit for a progamer" really is a very vague term and should be replaced immediately. And again, it was never about probe-rushing itself, but the mindset behind it that it revealed.
sure, i just wanted to indicate that i wasn't suggesting that it needed to be explicitly forbidden. that's why you use umbrella terms. but some terms are simply too umbrella-y to be allowed to stand - they give the people who apply the rules too much discretion and therefore more authority than they ought to have. like i said, void for vagueness (i'm familiar with the legal perspective as well).
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On December 15 2011 08:39 Trsjnica wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:34 Spekulatius wrote:On December 15 2011 08:31 o[twist] wrote:On December 15 2011 08:26 Spekulatius wrote:
Contracts don't need to be written down to have legal value and to be enforced. Neither do contracts or rules need to state every possible scenario of violation.
It's a matter of common sense and interpretation of the entire set of rules. Saying Naniwa couldn't be punished because the exact thing he did wasn't anticipated and forbidden explicitly by any rule is absurd. it's not a matter of common sense, but it is a matter of interpretation of the entire set of rules. however, nothing in the entire set of rules really seems to indicate that throwing a game with no impact would be disallowed, and if we had read through it before this incident i'm pretty sure most people would have agreed about that. words and phrases like "unfit for a progamer" and "offensive" and "abusive" (1) are vague and (2) have no history of being applied in this sort of situation. it's a general rule of interpretation that you have to give some sign of at least the kinds of incidents that you might be policing. otherwise, applying the rule in a certain situation is simply unfair. probe-rushing didn't have to be explicitly forbidden, but throwing a game could have been. In my post, I refrained from taking position to the whole debate. I just wanted to throw in some food for thought from a legal point of view. We can agree on the list of rules compiled by GomTV being bad because they're far from exhaustive and sometimes don't even hint to what they might consider a violation of terms. "Unfit for a progamer" really is a very vague term and should be replaced immediately. And again, it was never about probe-rushing itself, but the mindset behind it that it revealed. From a legal point of view, this is just a rules versus standards debate, if you're familiar with such debates. It is difficult for anyone to foresee every possible set of circumstances or potential problem, and to formulate rules ahead of time that address every possible problem. I do agree that GOM's rules are not exhaustive, however, I don't necessarily believe we can permanently cure that problem. The majority of professional sports have a vague rule about "unsportsmanlike conduct" or some such--because it is difficult to imagine every possible way an athlete could be unsportsmanlike ahead of time. This rule serves much the same function.
also @ o[twist], Desert Fox
That rules vs standards debate is unknown to me since I study law in a different language. However, I can assume what it's about. And you're right, it's the same old problem basically. State every single possible violation and have a huge list of singular rules that risk not being exhaustive (and thus exploitable) - or having general standards that apply to a yet to be defined number of cases.
But even if it's the same old story, "unfit for a progamer" (or w/e the phrase they used was) can be clarified. Replace it with "put all possible effort in winning your games" and you have a term that applies to the Naniwa situation. Or something along those lines. I just feel the wording is unfortunate and GomTV should fix that.
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On December 15 2011 08:41 o[twist] wrote:
i don't really agree with that (although you're not being at all unreasonable).
my issue is that, in contract law, you're not really allowed to make a contract that doesn't require you to perform your side of the bargain. that's not a contract at all. so it's impossible that gom could have had unlimited authority to remove people, because then they wouldn't have given mlg anything. there would have been no contract in the first place. the contract would basically be like
1. We'll give spots to your two best players or whatever
2. Unless we don't feel like it
if it's removal for some sort of cause, we end up going back to the specific language, and i still feel that the rules we've seen are way too vague to be applicable in this case. "offensive" and "abusive" behaviors seem to be things like saying fuck you on chat, and conduct "unfit for a progamer", well, i don't really know what that means, because i don't really have high standards for progamer conduct, just for progamer gaming ability.
on the other hand, this is one place where the cultural norms might come in. it could be that, in korea, this is exactly the sort of thing that would be deemed "offensive" or "unfit for a progamer." my humble opinion is that it's not what they had in mind and it's not what you would expect when you read the rules. those sound like rules about bm to me and this just doesn't seem like your standard case of bm. the statements made by mr. chae and gom also go against the kind of attitude i want to see in a gaming organization. i would much rather see them say "we want to compensate our progamers well and make them comfortable" as opposed to "a real progamer doesn't play for the money." that's a great way to justify exactly the sorts of conditions that many young athletes and gamers operate under, and those conditions are not fair.
overall i see a lot of strange deference to authority in the reaction to this. why would one trust gom's press release when they're a party to the disagreement? why would one assume the people running the tournament can just dole out whatever punishment they want? mr. chae's statements seemed to suggest he wanted a naniwa that acted like an adult rather than a teenager, but at the same time they seem to want to be able to treat progamers like children. and abuse of discretion and abuse of authority fall right into that mold.
Well, a couple points:
1. I agree with your assertion that contracts require the K to bind both parties.
2. I disagree that GOM was necessarily bound to take Naniwa. Practically, that contract would be between MLG and GOM, not Naniwa, and I doubt MLG would ever assert a claim against GOM on the matter for a variety of reasons.
Mostly, we just don't know the terms of the MLG/GOM contract (duration, terms, etc), or if there even was a contract rather than some more informal agreement. Also, the K might be under Korean law, and I have no idea what Korean law says about the matter.
3. As for "why would one assume the people running the tournament can just dole out whatever punishment they want?" -- We can assume it because unless there is a contract that states otherwise, they can invite whoever they want to their tournament. Until Naniwa signs a contract to play in GSL January, there isn't a contract in place there, and they are merely choosing not to offer him that contract.
I doubt they had sent out GSL January contracts already, and so the contract they may more likely have broken was with MLG. And I don't know the terms of that K, and don't really have any knowledge with which to meaningfully speculate.
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o[twist]: I am fine with what they are doing because I have purchased every season of GSL going back to GSL August and I enjoy their product and how they view what the competitive spirit is. I think you're conflating what the GSL is with something far more sinister--almost like it's this government capable of oppressing people. I'm sorry if that's not your opinion but to me it's silly that people think an organization whose prime objective is to provide entertainment at a premium should act like a fully operational government with checks and balances and a Constitution that must be adhered to absolutely.
They are first and foremost a business who must cater to customers. As a customer, I don't like shitty play, I don't like a shitty attitude and I don't like brats. Naniwa fits that to a T and I cannot stand him as an individual. He ruins what I feel is a burgeoning industry. That's just why personally I applaud them.
Other than that, they can do what they want. If they start banning people left and right and turn into a sloppy business model, people will walk with their money. I'm all for supporting the players and making sure tournaments treat them fairly but this is the worst possible scenario to bring that argument up with. This isn't a player worthy of our time. He couldn't respect other players, he couldn't respect teams and he sure as hell didn't care about anyone but himself. The GSL used their fail-safe to get rid of him.
I will not entertain that argument nor go to bat for players with Naniwa being the reasoning.
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On December 15 2011 08:45 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:39 Trsjnica wrote:On December 15 2011 08:34 Spekulatius wrote:On December 15 2011 08:31 o[twist] wrote:On December 15 2011 08:26 Spekulatius wrote:
Contracts don't need to be written down to have legal value and to be enforced. Neither do contracts or rules need to state every possible scenario of violation.
It's a matter of common sense and interpretation of the entire set of rules. Saying Naniwa couldn't be punished because the exact thing he did wasn't anticipated and forbidden explicitly by any rule is absurd. it's not a matter of common sense, but it is a matter of interpretation of the entire set of rules. however, nothing in the entire set of rules really seems to indicate that throwing a game with no impact would be disallowed, and if we had read through it before this incident i'm pretty sure most people would have agreed about that. words and phrases like "unfit for a progamer" and "offensive" and "abusive" (1) are vague and (2) have no history of being applied in this sort of situation. it's a general rule of interpretation that you have to give some sign of at least the kinds of incidents that you might be policing. otherwise, applying the rule in a certain situation is simply unfair. probe-rushing didn't have to be explicitly forbidden, but throwing a game could have been. In my post, I refrained from taking position to the whole debate. I just wanted to throw in some food for thought from a legal point of view. We can agree on the list of rules compiled by GomTV being bad because they're far from exhaustive and sometimes don't even hint to what they might consider a violation of terms. "Unfit for a progamer" really is a very vague term and should be replaced immediately. And again, it was never about probe-rushing itself, but the mindset behind it that it revealed. From a legal point of view, this is just a rules versus standards debate, if you're familiar with such debates. It is difficult for anyone to foresee every possible set of circumstances or potential problem, and to formulate rules ahead of time that address every possible problem. I do agree that GOM's rules are not exhaustive, however, I don't necessarily believe we can permanently cure that problem. The majority of professional sports have a vague rule about "unsportsmanlike conduct" or some such--because it is difficult to imagine every possible way an athlete could be unsportsmanlike ahead of time. This rule serves much the same function. also @ o[twist], Desert Fox That rules vs standards debate is unknown to me since I study law in a different language. However, I can assume what it's about. And you're right, it's the same old problem basically. State every single possible violation and have a huge list of singular rules that risk not being exhaustive (and thus exploitable) - or having general standards that apply to a yet to be defined number of cases. But even if it's the same old story, "unfit for a progamer" (or w/e the phrase they used was) can be clarified. Replace it with "put all possible effort in winning your games" and you have a term that applies to the Naniwa situation. Or something along those lines. I just feel the wording is unfortunate and GomTV should fix that.
You are correct re: rules v. standards. I agree that your wording covers this situation better and more cleanly, and it seems a good wording to add.
I would still be a bit uncomfortable removing something like "unsportsmanlike conduct" or "unfit for a progamer" due to a lot of other situations that could occur. For example, (and I hope this example doesn't cause flame), if a player wore clothing that was entirely unfit for the competition (imagine swatikas or hateful messages on a shirt/etc), I believe that would be unportsmanlike and unfit for a progamer, and worthy of punishment. However, your rule wouldn't cover that.
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that all seems pretty fair. i think i originally meant to be referring to contract law only conceptually rather than practically - that is, in the sense that naniwa agreed to the rules of the tournament and gom agreed to his participation, and that he hasn't broken any of them. there would definitely be an outcry if he had been thrown out *without* having probe-rushed, right? even though that would have, under your (convincing) analysis, well within their rights. so the question is the extent to which we feel they should be bound to enforce only the rules they've stated clearly (and by clearly, i don't mean explicitly delineating every possible breach, but to some kind of reasonableness standard) and the extent to which we feel naniwa broke those rules. those topics are definitely debatable, but i still find it very hard to extract anything about probe-rushing or game-throwing generally from the rules that have been listed, and my instinct is very much to say that if no rules were broken, it's unfair to exclude him from a spot that was, from all evidence that i've seen, his.
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@ Trsjnica: Yea sure. I just meant it as a mere example for one of several phrases to replace "unprofessional behavior".
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On December 15 2011 08:50 Desert Fox wrote:
o[twist]: I am fine with what they are doing because I have purchased every season of GSL going back to GSL August and I enjoy their product and how they view what the competitive spirit is. I think you're conflating what the GSL is with something far more sinister--almost like it's this government capable of oppressing people. I'm sorry if that's not your opinion but to me it's silly that people think an organization whose prime objective is to provide entertainment at a premium should act like a fully operational government with checks and balances and a Constitution that must be adhered to absolutely.
it's not exactly that, but you'll see in all sorts of sports that players are taken advantage of so that the people putting the sports on tv can make a buck. they complained about it at the us open, there's tons of articles about how it happens in ncaa football. hell, the nfl and nba had contract disputes this year. in the nfl right now there's a lot of outcry because the rules about who gets fined about what hits are very unclear - and people are still only penalized in-game and fined for those things, not thrown out, and they're hits that could kill people, not just make some fans unhappy. there doesn't have to be a conspiracy for one side to have more power than i'd like.
that said, i respect your position as a fan. i would submit that you should be irritated at gom for not having a clearer rule. if they had had a clearer rule, you would have gotten a more enjoyable game, because if throwing games had been clearly disallowed, i very much doubt that naniwa would have done it.
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On December 15 2011 08:53 o[twist] wrote:
that all seems pretty fair. i think i originally meant to be referring to contract law only conceptually rather than practically - that is, in the sense that naniwa agreed to the rules of the tournament and gom agreed to his participation, and that he hasn't broken any of them. there would definitely be an outcry if he had been thrown out *without* having probe-rushed, right? even though that would have, under your (convincing) analysis, well within their rights. so the question is the extent to which we feel they should be bound to enforce only the rules they've stated clearly (and by clearly, i don't mean explicitly delineating every possible breach, but to some kind of reasonableness standard) and the extent to which we feel naniwa broke those rules. those topics are definitely debatable, but i still find it very hard to extract anything about probe-rushing or game-throwing generally from the rules that have been listed, and my instinct is very much to say that if no rules were broken, it's unfair to exclude him from a spot that was, from all evidence that i've seen, his.
Yeah, I agree we'd all be outraged if they tossed him from Code S without any justification (like, if he had 4 gated Nestea, it failed, he lost to roaches... if GOM tosses him then, we riot).
Assuming they have a rule akin to "unsportsmanlike conduct," ("unfit for a progamer") then such a rule is going to be really vague and we won't have much idea what it means until it is enforced. This may be one of those initial enforcements that helps us get a grasp on what players can and cannot do.
Now, I think such a rule is necessary as it's impossible/undesirable to delineate all possible bad things a player can do. I also think this is a reasonable application of such a rule. But, both of these two things are merely my opinion, and I admit they are debatable points, with reasonable arguments on each side.
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On December 15 2011 09:02 Trsjnica wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 08:53 o[twist] wrote:
that all seems pretty fair. i think i originally meant to be referring to contract law only conceptually rather than practically - that is, in the sense that naniwa agreed to the rules of the tournament and gom agreed to his participation, and that he hasn't broken any of them. there would definitely be an outcry if he had been thrown out *without* having probe-rushed, right? even though that would have, under your (convincing) analysis, well within their rights. so the question is the extent to which we feel they should be bound to enforce only the rules they've stated clearly (and by clearly, i don't mean explicitly delineating every possible breach, but to some kind of reasonableness standard) and the extent to which we feel naniwa broke those rules. those topics are definitely debatable, but i still find it very hard to extract anything about probe-rushing or game-throwing generally from the rules that have been listed, and my instinct is very much to say that if no rules were broken, it's unfair to exclude him from a spot that was, from all evidence that i've seen, his. Yeah, I agree we'd all be outraged if they tossed him from Code S without any justification (like, if he has 4 gates Nestea, it failed, he lost to roaches... if GOM tosses him then, we riot). Assuming they have a rule akin to "unsportsmanlike conduct," ("unfit for a progamer") then such a rule is going to be really vague and we won't have much idea what it means until it is enforced. This may be one of those initial enforcements that helps us get a grasp on what players can and cannot do. Now, I think such a rule is necessary as it's impossible/undesirable to delineate all possible bad things a player can do. I also think this is a reasonable application of such a rule. But, both of these two things are merely my opinion, and I admit they are debatable points, with reasonable arguments on each side.
i am in complete agreement with your description of our disagreement
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Let IDRA back in GSL ... and the GRACKEN will DESTROY!!!!
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The way the question is phrased in the title of this post is ridiculously biased. It assumes the rules are arbitrary. Shoo.
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On December 15 2011 07:58 Desert Fox wrote:What Naniwa did was reason enough but let's be honest: Naniwa isn't a good individual.
I think this comment makes you a terrible person.
+ Show Spoiler +Not really. But these comments (including some of the tweets by Korean players) worry me.
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On December 14 2011 21:14 gregnog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:06 iky43210 wrote:On December 14 2011 21:05 gregnog wrote:On December 14 2011 21:00 iky43210 wrote:On December 14 2011 20:52 gregnog wrote:
Koreans need to get rid of that medieval mentality with all that bull shit "honor and pride". Its all fake. All of it.
Fire your tournament organizer for having such a terrible format, not Naniwa.
Next season GOM is going to introduce interviews with the game loser I bet, and if you dip out on the interview you will be banned. since when is honor and pride a medieval mentality. where do you live? A fake game with the illusion of real competition is what the Koreans want. But then they pretend its about fans/pride/honor. Where was Nesteas honor when he purposefully gave MVP the win at Blizzcon finals? That game had a 25k difference in 1st and 2nd place. (Most likely split the difference...) Naniwas was literally meaningless. Please do not make the naive assumption that skipping meaningless games detract from your pride and honor. That is what I am getting at. every sports in the world is exactly the same, and they all receives heavy punishment as well if you pull any stunts like that. I guess all sports are all fake honor and pride then right? and seriously your accusation without proofs is not something a logical person would do. Where is your proof that Nestea purposely throw away the game? I'm not sure why I am even wasting my time responding to a conspiracist. No? I have heard that there is some soccer rule that has only been enforced 1 or 2 times. In the US there is no such rule, for any sport. It is actually standard strategy to not put in full effort for meaningless games. Conspiracy? I guess you weren't around when the Blizzcon Finals happened. It is pretty well known. Them being on the same team and all...
so if the US was 0-2 in the next World Cup Group stage and faced another 0-2 team, you'd be fine with them walking onto the field and just sitting down? Yeah, that'd go over real well.
People are such hypocrites about this.
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Maybe some people do not live in the same world I live in where I go to work at a company every day. They make up lots of vague rules much like the many silly laws politicians make up. Almost every law or rule has some other law or rule that says they can interpret or change any of them however they want and at any time. GOM makes the rules and can change them or interpret them to mean anything they want and any player basically just does what they are told or does not participate fair or not same thing in real life everywhere else.
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On December 15 2011 12:31 snakeeyez wrote:
Maybe some people do not live in the same world I live in where I go to work at a company every day. They make up lots of vague rules much like the many silly laws politicians make up. Almost every law or rule has some other law or rule that says they can interpret or change any of them however they want and at any time. GOM makes the rules and can change them or interpret them to mean anything they want and any player basically just does what they are told or does not participate fair or not same thing in real life everywhere else.
ofcourse, the question is not wheter this is normal, it is if it benefits e-sports and the GSL.
the worlds biggest e-sports tournament is not like a normal company, and the actions are viewed and disussed by thousands so they need to be more predictable and well formulated than the rules regarding the coffee machine at your local car dealership.
i think that the way the gsl handles "the foreigner factor" is getting out of hand and hurting the league and hurting the entertainment value of the league
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EPT
