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On December 13 2011 08:30 fourColo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 08:28 1Eris1 wrote:On December 13 2011 08:25 kratos-23 wrote:
Aocowns you need to shut the f**** up. stephano is the most successful foreigner and that's a fact, period. Such flawless logic you have there. Didn't realize IPL3, IPL4 UK Qual and ESWC trumped Two MLGs, a Dreamhack, Homestory, achieveing Code S and getting a Ro.8 in Code S ... They kind of do in terms of dollars actually.
So then you're trying to say that stephano is better than huk, dongraegu, losira, jjakji, idra, nada, thorzain just because he's won more money from tournaments? I can't tell if you're trolling or not, please please be trolling.
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On December 13 2011 08:33 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 08:30 fourColo wrote:On December 13 2011 08:28 1Eris1 wrote:On December 13 2011 08:25 kratos-23 wrote:
Aocowns you need to shut the f**** up. stephano is the most successful foreigner and that's a fact, period. Such flawless logic you have there. Didn't realize IPL3, IPL4 UK Qual and ESWC trumped Two MLGs, a Dreamhack, Homestory, achieveing Code S and getting a Ro.8 in Code S ... They kind of do in terms of dollars actually. So because IPL 3 gave out 6x as much as a MLG it was 6x more accomplishing? Is his IPL 3 win also more impressive than Nada's 4 (or was it 5?) consecutive Code S ro.8 runs? Because I mean those only gave out like 3k a pop... prize money=/=difficulty necessarily
True, but it's also measurable. So is ELO, and by that metric Stephano is also above Huk currently. If you want to measure all time success, Huk's peak is higher than Stephanos.
There's two think you're trying to compare here, 1) past success and 2) predictions of future success.
You might have a point that Huk (or some other foreigner) is more likely to succeed in the future because he has more high profile televised tournament wins than Stephano. It's really hard to predict the future though. But if we're looking at past success, Stephano is more successful in terms of winnings than any other foreigner. You can't argue this without bringing up unrecorded tournament winnings that we don't know about. Another measure might be salary or sponsorship but that's information that we don't have available.
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On December 13 2011 08:34 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 08:28 JohnMatrix wrote:On December 13 2011 08:20 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 08:18 BlazeFury01 wrote:On December 13 2011 08:13 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 08:00 BlazeFury01 wrote:On December 13 2011 07:44 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 07:28 BlazeFury01 wrote:On December 13 2011 07:16 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 07:05 Zath.erin wrote:
[quote]
I guess we'll have to disagree on this point, Idra's only major tournament win that had Koreans in it was IEM china, and it was a somewhat weak line up where he didn't have a single Korean in his group stage. He beat Revival, Puma and Elfi to win it which is impressive as we know Puma is a beast. If you compare that to IPL 3 though, where stephano beat 4 Koreans in a row to win it, after beating Revival, Puzzle AND MMA just to qualify. I guess you're just gonna say he got all the easy Koreans, I guess that's true, it was just lucky (pun intended) for him the Korean he beat 4-0 took out all the hard ones on the other side of the bracket. Also you realise that without the lame extended series rule, Idra would have lost to Boxer in that very same tournament and ended up squeaking by, by one game. Regardless they're both great players, but it's just sad seeing all the people trying to discredit Stephano all the time.
There really isn't anything to disagree about. Congrats to stephano on winning in an online qualifier against a cross server Korean in the middle of the night. That is not legit at all, imo. Freshen my mind, who did he play against at the actual LAN? I know that he beat Lucky in a ZvZ 4-0 in the finals. Lucky has a somewhat shitty ZvZ if I remember correctly. and about the Boxer thing. Boxer cheesed the fuck out of Idra, while Stephano lost in macro games. God, we should stop downplaying thei achievments  They are both great players, but we have not seen eneough recent.(Idra's recent games were plagued by 2 months of travel, with only 1 week over that period of time in the house for practice) lol your post is so contradicting it's ridiculous. First off, you can't "luck" your way to a final. Second off, you bring up "his win against MMA not being legit" a sentence later you question "who did he play against at an actual LAN" and then you mention he beat lucky 4-0 in the "FINALS". Keyword: FINALS. Lucky was in the FINALS for a reason. Also, you mentioned that lucky has a "shitty ZvZ". look at Luckys ZvZ on the international scene and show me where (besides his losses to stephano) where lucky lost a set. In the Korean scene it's 3-5. This reason exactly: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=sc2-international&type=players&id=961&part=games&league=standardSo, you saying Stephano's wins during the whole IPL is not legit is just plain ignorant and erroneous. People like you should seriously stop posting. It's irritating reading the stuff idiots like you write. First off, you CAN luck yourself into a final. I asked politely who Stephano played to get there, and I specified that I wasn't sure about Lucky, but that hisZvZ looked bad, and taht I previously heard it was bad. A win against MMA while he's playing cross server on an effed up time is not legit. That is not even arguable. Stop twisting my words. I never said his win wasn't legit, I just said he dodged the big guns. It is by no means bad to win the IPL3, but it is by no means legendary, especially considering the best player he beat was StC -.-'. he beat Violet(Barely code A) and Inori, who quite frankly is shit at everything but PvP. He really lucked out on the opponents. and FYI, I see you equally as an ignorant idiot Link me games/youtube videos or any evidence where somebody has "LUCKED" their way to a final and I'll believe you. Also, you just admitted that you "HEARD" luckys ZvZ was bad without doing any research to verify if it was true. People can say Idra is the worst ZvT in the world, does that mean it's true? No, it doesn't. So, you really look like an idiot saying the stupid things you did in your previous post. Nobody is twisting your words either. I pointed out individual quotes on post and questioned them with "evidence" backing my argument. You however, have no evidence. Also, nobody was even talking about anything being "legendary" so why did you bring that up? And keep in mind, NOBODY expected a foreigner to win IPL especially Stephano (at that time). So, give credit where credit is due. ''So, you saying Stephano's wins during the whole IPL is not legit is just plain ignorant and erroneous.'' This is what I responded to, when I asked you to stop twisting my words. Please, you said you pointed out individual quotes. Where do I say Stephano's win was not legit? Yes, I ''HEARD'' Lucky's ZvZ was bad. You corrected me, and I accepted it. Stop fucking herp derping on that. I exagerrated with the ''legendary'' That's waht people do. There is nothing special about beating Koreans, whose skill level is that of a low Code A player. Whether you are Korean or not doesn't matter. If he actually defeated some Code S level opponents, or some top Code A, then I would glady give credit(Read more credit than I already give him, cus I have already stated it was not bad AT ALL) Also, why would you bring up that Lucky was in the finals earlier? Yes, he deserved it, he defeated MMA! in ZvT -.-' Another match up. But it was not Lucky we were talking about, it was Stephano. I brought up lucky because you asked "who did stephano play in a lan that was legit". Stephano has beaten Code S players. DRG is no easy opponent Those stats with Lucky. What opponents were those against? Code A players? We are talking about IPL3, not BlizzCup. [troll]Idra has beat Puma a random code B player 3-0 trolololn that show he must be supra good. yes i just have faith in the unfair code x classification and not by the caliber of players[/troll] btw TheSTC is a code S caliber too. etc. I didn't realize this was about Idra. Btw, Puma is not Code B... I never claimed StC not to be good, but imo he is not Code S caliber... He was the best player Stephano played at IPL3, and that's not particularily impressive
He played Huk.
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On December 13 2011 08:39 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 08:34 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 08:28 JohnMatrix wrote:On December 13 2011 08:20 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 08:18 BlazeFury01 wrote:On December 13 2011 08:13 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 08:00 BlazeFury01 wrote:On December 13 2011 07:44 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 07:28 BlazeFury01 wrote:On December 13 2011 07:16 Aocowns wrote:[quote] There really isn't anything to disagree about. Congrats to stephano on winning in an online qualifier against a cross server Korean in the middle of the night. That is not legit at all, imo. Freshen my mind, who did he play against at the actual LAN? I know that he beat Lucky in a ZvZ 4-0 in the finals. Lucky has a somewhat shitty ZvZ if I remember correctly. and about the Boxer thing. Boxer cheesed the fuck out of Idra, while Stephano lost in macro games. God, we should stop downplaying thei achievments They are both great players, but we have not seen eneough recent.(Idra's recent games were plagued by 2 months of travel, with only 1 week over that period of time in the house for practice) lol your post is so contradicting it's ridiculous. First off, you can't "luck" your way to a final. Second off, you bring up "his win against MMA not being legit" a sentence later you question "who did he play against at an actual LAN" and then you mention he beat lucky 4-0 in the "FINALS". Keyword: FINALS. Lucky was in the FINALS for a reason. Also, you mentioned that lucky has a "shitty ZvZ". look at Luckys ZvZ on the international scene and show me where (besides his losses to stephano) where lucky lost a set. In the Korean scene it's 3-5. This reason exactly: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=sc2-international&type=players&id=961&part=games&league=standardSo, you saying Stephano's wins during the whole IPL is not legit is just plain ignorant and erroneous. People like you should seriously stop posting. It's irritating reading the stuff idiots like you write. First off, you CAN luck yourself into a final. I asked politely who Stephano played to get there, and I specified that I wasn't sure about Lucky, but that hisZvZ looked bad, and taht I previously heard it was bad. A win against MMA while he's playing cross server on an effed up time is not legit. That is not even arguable. Stop twisting my words. I never said his win wasn't legit, I just said he dodged the big guns. It is by no means bad to win the IPL3, but it is by no means legendary, especially considering the best player he beat was StC -.-'. he beat Violet(Barely code A) and Inori, who quite frankly is shit at everything but PvP. He really lucked out on the opponents. and FYI, I see you equally as an ignorant idiot Link me games/youtube videos or any evidence where somebody has "LUCKED" their way to a final and I'll believe you. Also, you just admitted that you "HEARD" luckys ZvZ was bad without doing any research to verify if it was true. People can say Idra is the worst ZvT in the world, does that mean it's true? No, it doesn't. So, you really look like an idiot saying the stupid things you did in your previous post. Nobody is twisting your words either. I pointed out individual quotes on post and questioned them with "evidence" backing my argument. You however, have no evidence. Also, nobody was even talking about anything being "legendary" so why did you bring that up? And keep in mind, NOBODY expected a foreigner to win IPL especially Stephano (at that time). So, give credit where credit is due. ''So, you saying Stephano's wins during the whole IPL is not legit is just plain ignorant and erroneous.'' This is what I responded to, when I asked you to stop twisting my words. Please, you said you pointed out individual quotes. Where do I say Stephano's win was not legit? Yes, I ''HEARD'' Lucky's ZvZ was bad. You corrected me, and I accepted it. Stop fucking herp derping on that. I exagerrated with the ''legendary'' That's waht people do. There is nothing special about beating Koreans, whose skill level is that of a low Code A player. Whether you are Korean or not doesn't matter. If he actually defeated some Code S level opponents, or some top Code A, then I would glady give credit(Read more credit than I already give him, cus I have already stated it was not bad AT ALL) Also, why would you bring up that Lucky was in the finals earlier? Yes, he deserved it, he defeated MMA! in ZvT -.-' Another match up. But it was not Lucky we were talking about, it was Stephano. I brought up lucky because you asked "who did stephano play in a lan that was legit". Stephano has beaten Code S players. DRG is no easy opponent Those stats with Lucky. What opponents were those against? Code A players? We are talking about IPL3, not BlizzCup. [troll]Idra has beat Puma a random code B player 3-0 trolololn that show he must be supra good. yes i just have faith in the unfair code x classification and not by the caliber of players[/troll] btw TheSTC is a code S caliber too. etc. I didn't realize this was about Idra. Btw, Puma is not Code B... I never claimed StC not to be good, but imo he is not Code S caliber... He was the best player Stephano played at IPL3, and that's not particularily impressive He played Huk.
When? The group stages that didn't really mean anything?
Edit: Not saying that it doesn't count or anything, Just saying that it didn't contribute to the main tournament. I didn't see the games, so I can't comment further
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On December 13 2011 08:39 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 08:30 fourColo wrote:On December 13 2011 08:28 1Eris1 wrote:On December 13 2011 08:25 kratos-23 wrote:
Aocowns you need to shut the f**** up. stephano is the most successful foreigner and that's a fact, period. Such flawless logic you have there. Didn't realize IPL3, IPL4 UK Qual and ESWC trumped Two MLGs, a Dreamhack, Homestory, achieveing Code S and getting a Ro.8 in Code S ... They kind of do in terms of dollars actually. So then you're trying to say that stephano is better than huk, dongraegu, losira, jjakji, idra, nada, thorzain just because he's won more money from tournaments? I can't tell if you're trolling or not, please please be trolling.
I'm not trolling, stop throwing that out whenever something tickles your emotions in the wrong way. If you want to define success as "something that I make up based on how I'm feeling at some particular moment in time" go ahead. But if you want to measure it in a meaningful way, prize money and ELO are cold hard objective numbers. They are not perfect indicators of future success because there is none.
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On December 13 2011 08:41 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 08:39 Crushinator wrote:On December 13 2011 08:34 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 08:28 JohnMatrix wrote:On December 13 2011 08:20 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 08:18 BlazeFury01 wrote:On December 13 2011 08:13 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 08:00 BlazeFury01 wrote:On December 13 2011 07:44 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 07:28 BlazeFury01 wrote:[quote] lol your post is so contradicting it's ridiculous. First off, you can't "luck" your way to a final. Second off, you bring up "his win against MMA not being legit" a sentence later you question "who did he play against at an actual LAN" and then you mention he beat lucky 4-0 in the "FINALS". Keyword: FINALS. Lucky was in the FINALS for a reason. Also, you mentioned that lucky has a "shitty ZvZ". look at Luckys ZvZ on the international scene and show me where (besides his losses to stephano) where lucky lost a set. In the Korean scene it's 3-5. This reason exactly: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=sc2-international&type=players&id=961&part=games&league=standardSo, you saying Stephano's wins during the whole IPL is not legit is just plain ignorant and erroneous. People like you should seriously stop posting. It's irritating reading the stuff idiots like you write. First off, you CAN luck yourself into a final. I asked politely who Stephano played to get there, and I specified that I wasn't sure about Lucky, but that hisZvZ looked bad, and taht I previously heard it was bad. A win against MMA while he's playing cross server on an effed up time is not legit. That is not even arguable. Stop twisting my words. I never said his win wasn't legit, I just said he dodged the big guns. It is by no means bad to win the IPL3, but it is by no means legendary, especially considering the best player he beat was StC -.-'. he beat Violet(Barely code A) and Inori, who quite frankly is shit at everything but PvP. He really lucked out on the opponents. and FYI, I see you equally as an ignorant idiot Link me games/youtube videos or any evidence where somebody has "LUCKED" their way to a final and I'll believe you. Also, you just admitted that you "HEARD" luckys ZvZ was bad without doing any research to verify if it was true. People can say Idra is the worst ZvT in the world, does that mean it's true? No, it doesn't. So, you really look like an idiot saying the stupid things you did in your previous post. Nobody is twisting your words either. I pointed out individual quotes on post and questioned them with "evidence" backing my argument. You however, have no evidence. Also, nobody was even talking about anything being "legendary" so why did you bring that up? And keep in mind, NOBODY expected a foreigner to win IPL especially Stephano (at that time). So, give credit where credit is due. ''So, you saying Stephano's wins during the whole IPL is not legit is just plain ignorant and erroneous.'' This is what I responded to, when I asked you to stop twisting my words. Please, you said you pointed out individual quotes. Where do I say Stephano's win was not legit? Yes, I ''HEARD'' Lucky's ZvZ was bad. You corrected me, and I accepted it. Stop fucking herp derping on that. I exagerrated with the ''legendary'' That's waht people do. There is nothing special about beating Koreans, whose skill level is that of a low Code A player. Whether you are Korean or not doesn't matter. If he actually defeated some Code S level opponents, or some top Code A, then I would glady give credit(Read more credit than I already give him, cus I have already stated it was not bad AT ALL) Also, why would you bring up that Lucky was in the finals earlier? Yes, he deserved it, he defeated MMA! in ZvT -.-' Another match up. But it was not Lucky we were talking about, it was Stephano. I brought up lucky because you asked "who did stephano play in a lan that was legit". Stephano has beaten Code S players. DRG is no easy opponent Those stats with Lucky. What opponents were those against? Code A players? We are talking about IPL3, not BlizzCup. [troll]Idra has beat Puma a random code B player 3-0 trolololn that show he must be supra good. yes i just have faith in the unfair code x classification and not by the caliber of players[/troll] btw TheSTC is a code S caliber too. etc. I didn't realize this was about Idra. Btw, Puma is not Code B... I never claimed StC not to be good, but imo he is not Code S caliber... He was the best player Stephano played at IPL3, and that's not particularily impressive He played Huk. When? The group stages that didn't really mean anything?
Yes Like every victory by Stephano but Idras victory even the meaningless count a lot -_-
But i'm sure you would use his defeat vs Alive easily -_-
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On December 13 2011 08:41 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 08:39 Crushinator wrote:On December 13 2011 08:34 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 08:28 JohnMatrix wrote:On December 13 2011 08:20 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 08:18 BlazeFury01 wrote:On December 13 2011 08:13 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 08:00 BlazeFury01 wrote:On December 13 2011 07:44 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 07:28 BlazeFury01 wrote:[quote] lol your post is so contradicting it's ridiculous. First off, you can't "luck" your way to a final. Second off, you bring up "his win against MMA not being legit" a sentence later you question "who did he play against at an actual LAN" and then you mention he beat lucky 4-0 in the "FINALS". Keyword: FINALS. Lucky was in the FINALS for a reason. Also, you mentioned that lucky has a "shitty ZvZ". look at Luckys ZvZ on the international scene and show me where (besides his losses to stephano) where lucky lost a set. In the Korean scene it's 3-5. This reason exactly: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=sc2-international&type=players&id=961&part=games&league=standardSo, you saying Stephano's wins during the whole IPL is not legit is just plain ignorant and erroneous. People like you should seriously stop posting. It's irritating reading the stuff idiots like you write. First off, you CAN luck yourself into a final. I asked politely who Stephano played to get there, and I specified that I wasn't sure about Lucky, but that hisZvZ looked bad, and taht I previously heard it was bad. A win against MMA while he's playing cross server on an effed up time is not legit. That is not even arguable. Stop twisting my words. I never said his win wasn't legit, I just said he dodged the big guns. It is by no means bad to win the IPL3, but it is by no means legendary, especially considering the best player he beat was StC -.-'. he beat Violet(Barely code A) and Inori, who quite frankly is shit at everything but PvP. He really lucked out on the opponents. and FYI, I see you equally as an ignorant idiot Link me games/youtube videos or any evidence where somebody has "LUCKED" their way to a final and I'll believe you. Also, you just admitted that you "HEARD" luckys ZvZ was bad without doing any research to verify if it was true. People can say Idra is the worst ZvT in the world, does that mean it's true? No, it doesn't. So, you really look like an idiot saying the stupid things you did in your previous post. Nobody is twisting your words either. I pointed out individual quotes on post and questioned them with "evidence" backing my argument. You however, have no evidence. Also, nobody was even talking about anything being "legendary" so why did you bring that up? And keep in mind, NOBODY expected a foreigner to win IPL especially Stephano (at that time). So, give credit where credit is due. ''So, you saying Stephano's wins during the whole IPL is not legit is just plain ignorant and erroneous.'' This is what I responded to, when I asked you to stop twisting my words. Please, you said you pointed out individual quotes. Where do I say Stephano's win was not legit? Yes, I ''HEARD'' Lucky's ZvZ was bad. You corrected me, and I accepted it. Stop fucking herp derping on that. I exagerrated with the ''legendary'' That's waht people do. There is nothing special about beating Koreans, whose skill level is that of a low Code A player. Whether you are Korean or not doesn't matter. If he actually defeated some Code S level opponents, or some top Code A, then I would glady give credit(Read more credit than I already give him, cus I have already stated it was not bad AT ALL) Also, why would you bring up that Lucky was in the finals earlier? Yes, he deserved it, he defeated MMA! in ZvT -.-' Another match up. But it was not Lucky we were talking about, it was Stephano. I brought up lucky because you asked "who did stephano play in a lan that was legit". Stephano has beaten Code S players. DRG is no easy opponent Those stats with Lucky. What opponents were those against? Code A players? We are talking about IPL3, not BlizzCup. [troll]Idra has beat Puma a random code B player 3-0 trolololn that show he must be supra good. yes i just have faith in the unfair code x classification and not by the caliber of players[/troll] btw TheSTC is a code S caliber too. etc. I didn't realize this was about Idra. Btw, Puma is not Code B... I never claimed StC not to be good, but imo he is not Code S caliber... He was the best player Stephano played at IPL3, and that's not particularily impressive He played Huk. When? The group stages that didn't really mean anything?
Still counts.
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Mehehehe I edited before you posted :D
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On December 13 2011 08:39 fourColo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 08:33 1Eris1 wrote:On December 13 2011 08:30 fourColo wrote:On December 13 2011 08:28 1Eris1 wrote:On December 13 2011 08:25 kratos-23 wrote:
Aocowns you need to shut the f**** up. stephano is the most successful foreigner and that's a fact, period. Such flawless logic you have there. Didn't realize IPL3, IPL4 UK Qual and ESWC trumped Two MLGs, a Dreamhack, Homestory, achieveing Code S and getting a Ro.8 in Code S ... They kind of do in terms of dollars actually. So because IPL 3 gave out 6x as much as a MLG it was 6x more accomplishing? Is his IPL 3 win also more impressive than Nada's 4 (or was it 5?) consecutive Code S ro.8 runs? Because I mean those only gave out like 3k a pop... prize money=/=difficulty necessarily True, but it's also measurable. So is ELO, and by that metric Stephano is also above Huk currently. If you want to measure all time success, Huk's peak is higher than Stephanos. There's two think you're trying to compare here, 1) past success and 2) predictions of future success. You might have a point that Huk (or some other foreigner) is more likely to succeed in the future because he has more high profile televised tournament wins than Stephano. It's really hard to predict the future though. But if we're looking at past success, Stephano is more successful in terms of winnings than any other foreigner. You can't argue this without bringing up unrecorded tournament winnings that we don't know about. Another measure might be salary or sponsorship but that's information that we don't have available.
Actually I was kind of arguing the opposite. I think HuK is the most sucessful foreigner overall (based on wins, not cash, because if we go by cash FD is still the sixth most sucessful player of all time or something), but as of late Stephano has been the most sucessful and thus is probably the most likely to suceed in the near future.
But yeah I see what you mean. (No clue on salary either, but those aren't necessarily reflective of skill/sucess. Destiny might honestly have a bigger salary than some strong foreigners like Hasu or something, just because of his exposure, not his skill)
edit: and personally I just can't judge anything by ELO (atleast in SC2), because I mean, how the hell is Curious above guys like MMA and Leenock -.-
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"Code S" caliber is a meaningless phrase. A person is Code S caliber if they happen to be in Code S at the given moment in time. If they were in code S last season, then I would define them as "Code S caliber last season". That's all it should mean, if you want to say they're "top X in the world" or "very good X vs X" say that.
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On December 13 2011 08:42 fourColo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 08:39 hunts wrote:On December 13 2011 08:30 fourColo wrote:On December 13 2011 08:28 1Eris1 wrote:On December 13 2011 08:25 kratos-23 wrote:
Aocowns you need to shut the f**** up. stephano is the most successful foreigner and that's a fact, period. Such flawless logic you have there. Didn't realize IPL3, IPL4 UK Qual and ESWC trumped Two MLGs, a Dreamhack, Homestory, achieveing Code S and getting a Ro.8 in Code S ... They kind of do in terms of dollars actually. So then you're trying to say that stephano is better than huk, dongraegu, losira, jjakji, idra, nada, thorzain just because he's won more money from tournaments? I can't tell if you're trolling or not, please please be trolling. I'm not trolling, stop throwing that out whenever something tickles your emotions in the wrong way. If you want to define success as "something that I make up based on how I'm feeling at some particular moment in time" go ahead. But if you want to measure it in a meaningful way, prize money and ELO are cold hard objective numbers. They are not perfect indicators of future success because there is none.
No I want to define success as skill, because there are plenty of easy non competitive tournaments with plenty of money.
You are attempting to say that stephano winning some money means more than losira getting to the finals of GSL code S and having a few other good code S runs. You're attempting to say him making some money means more than jjakji winnning a serason of code S, or nada being top 8 in 5 or so consecutive code S? suiccess is not "something that i make up based on how I'm feeling at some perticular moment in time" success is performance in MEANINGFUL tournaments, that have actual competition from top players. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but all the best players are in GSL, and most of them don't make close to what stephano has made because they have to compete with the other best players for their money, while he goes to the noncompetitive tournaments that throw out huge prize pools to make up for the lack of competition that the GSL has.
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On December 13 2011 08:39 fourColo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 08:33 1Eris1 wrote:On December 13 2011 08:30 fourColo wrote:On December 13 2011 08:28 1Eris1 wrote:On December 13 2011 08:25 kratos-23 wrote:
Aocowns you need to shut the f**** up. stephano is the most successful foreigner and that's a fact, period. Such flawless logic you have there. Didn't realize IPL3, IPL4 UK Qual and ESWC trumped Two MLGs, a Dreamhack, Homestory, achieveing Code S and getting a Ro.8 in Code S ... They kind of do in terms of dollars actually. So because IPL 3 gave out 6x as much as a MLG it was 6x more accomplishing? Is his IPL 3 win also more impressive than Nada's 4 (or was it 5?) consecutive Code S ro.8 runs? Because I mean those only gave out like 3k a pop... prize money=/=difficulty necessarily True, but it's also measurable. So is ELO, and by that metric Stephano is also above Huk currently. If you want to measure all time success, Huk's peak is higher than Stephanos. There's two think you're trying to compare here, 1) past success and 2) predictions of future success. You might have a point that Huk (or some other foreigner) is more likely to succeed in the future because he has more high profile televised tournament wins than Stephano. It's really hard to predict the future though. But if we're looking at past success, Stephano is more successful in terms of winnings than any other foreigner. You can't argue this without bringing up unrecorded tournament winnings that we don't know about. Another measure might be salary or sponsorship but that's information that we don't have available.
Measuring how good a player is by ELO and monetary prize is the worst example. Case in-point for ELO: the top 5 power ranking shit. Look at it to the right. It's Nani, Nerchio, Stephano, Kas, SaSe. They count small tournaments that have sub-par players in them so some players ELO gets inflated. I'm not saying these guys are bad, but do you think Nerchio is better than HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Sen, the list goes on.
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On December 13 2011 08:46 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 08:39 fourColo wrote:On December 13 2011 08:33 1Eris1 wrote:On December 13 2011 08:30 fourColo wrote:On December 13 2011 08:28 1Eris1 wrote:On December 13 2011 08:25 kratos-23 wrote:
Aocowns you need to shut the f**** up. stephano is the most successful foreigner and that's a fact, period. Such flawless logic you have there. Didn't realize IPL3, IPL4 UK Qual and ESWC trumped Two MLGs, a Dreamhack, Homestory, achieveing Code S and getting a Ro.8 in Code S ... They kind of do in terms of dollars actually. So because IPL 3 gave out 6x as much as a MLG it was 6x more accomplishing? Is his IPL 3 win also more impressive than Nada's 4 (or was it 5?) consecutive Code S ro.8 runs? Because I mean those only gave out like 3k a pop... prize money=/=difficulty necessarily True, but it's also measurable. So is ELO, and by that metric Stephano is also above Huk currently. If you want to measure all time success, Huk's peak is higher than Stephanos. There's two think you're trying to compare here, 1) past success and 2) predictions of future success. You might have a point that Huk (or some other foreigner) is more likely to succeed in the future because he has more high profile televised tournament wins than Stephano. It's really hard to predict the future though. But if we're looking at past success, Stephano is more successful in terms of winnings than any other foreigner. You can't argue this without bringing up unrecorded tournament winnings that we don't know about. Another measure might be salary or sponsorship but that's information that we don't have available. Actually I was kind of arguing the opposite. I think HuK is the most sucessful foreigner overall (based on wins, not cash, because if we go by cash FD is still the sixth most sucessful player of all time or something), but as of late Stephano has been the most sucessful and thus is probably the most likely to suceed in the near future. But yeah I see what you mean. (No clue on salary either, but those aren't necessarily reflective of skill/sucess. Destiny might honestly have a bigger salary than some strong foreigners like Hasu or something, just because of his exposure, not his skill)
Basing on wins is tricky because Stephano has actually won a shitload of small tournaments that I've never heard of. Both probably have won a lot of small, unrecorded tournaments, show matches too etc.
I would say FD has been extremely successful, but I would not say that I would expect his success to continue into the future.
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On December 13 2011 08:42 JohnMatrix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 08:41 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 08:39 Crushinator wrote:On December 13 2011 08:34 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 08:28 JohnMatrix wrote:On December 13 2011 08:20 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 08:18 BlazeFury01 wrote:On December 13 2011 08:13 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 08:00 BlazeFury01 wrote:On December 13 2011 07:44 Aocowns wrote:
[quote]
First off, you CAN luck yourself into a final. I asked politely who Stephano played to get there, and I specified that I wasn't sure about Lucky, but that hisZvZ looked bad, and taht I previously heard it was bad. A win against MMA while he's playing cross server on an effed up time is not legit. That is not even arguable.
Stop twisting my words. I never said his win wasn't legit, I just said he dodged the big guns. It is by no means bad to win the IPL3, but it is by no means legendary, especially considering the best player he beat was StC -.-'. he beat Violet(Barely code A) and Inori, who quite frankly is shit at everything but PvP. He really lucked out on the opponents.
and FYI, I see you equally as an ignorant idiot Link me games/youtube videos or any evidence where somebody has "LUCKED" their way to a final and I'll believe you. Also, you just admitted that you "HEARD" luckys ZvZ was bad without doing any research to verify if it was true. People can say Idra is the worst ZvT in the world, does that mean it's true? No, it doesn't. So, you really look like an idiot saying the stupid things you did in your previous post. Nobody is twisting your words either. I pointed out individual quotes on post and questioned them with "evidence" backing my argument. You however, have no evidence. Also, nobody was even talking about anything being "legendary" so why did you bring that up? And keep in mind, NOBODY expected a foreigner to win IPL especially Stephano (at that time). So, give credit where credit is due. ''So, you saying Stephano's wins during the whole IPL is not legit is just plain ignorant and erroneous.'' This is what I responded to, when I asked you to stop twisting my words. Please, you said you pointed out individual quotes. Where do I say Stephano's win was not legit? Yes, I ''HEARD'' Lucky's ZvZ was bad. You corrected me, and I accepted it. Stop fucking herp derping on that. I exagerrated with the ''legendary'' That's waht people do. There is nothing special about beating Koreans, whose skill level is that of a low Code A player. Whether you are Korean or not doesn't matter. If he actually defeated some Code S level opponents, or some top Code A, then I would glady give credit(Read more credit than I already give him, cus I have already stated it was not bad AT ALL) Also, why would you bring up that Lucky was in the finals earlier? Yes, he deserved it, he defeated MMA! in ZvT -.-' Another match up. But it was not Lucky we were talking about, it was Stephano. I brought up lucky because you asked "who did stephano play in a lan that was legit". Stephano has beaten Code S players. DRG is no easy opponent Those stats with Lucky. What opponents were those against? Code A players? We are talking about IPL3, not BlizzCup. [troll]Idra has beat Puma a random code B player 3-0 trolololn that show he must be supra good. yes i just have faith in the unfair code x classification and not by the caliber of players[/troll] btw TheSTC is a code S caliber too. etc. I didn't realize this was about Idra. Btw, Puma is not Code B... I never claimed StC not to be good, but imo he is not Code S caliber... He was the best player Stephano played at IPL3, and that's not particularily impressive He played Huk. When? The group stages that didn't really mean anything? Yes Like every victory by Stephano but Idras victory even the meaningless count a lot -_- But i'm sure you would use his lost vs Alive easily -_-
Did I? I am avoiding using any pool play matches, as they were all kind of pointless. People were tired because they just got there, it didn't contribute to the main tourny etc. I didn't see any of them, so I am not mentioning them.
Stop assuming I'd use every fucking reason to hate on him -.-' For fucks sake, I am not
Edit: Why the fuck do you keep adding in Idra??!?!?! There is absolutely no reason for you to do taht, wtf -.-
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regardless of the results he gets, i would like his style.
stephano plays a really economy/map control heavy style with very few extractors until he gets to 3 base saturation quickly. it seemingly works really well and is something that I try to emulate in my everyday play.
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On December 13 2011 08:49 fourColo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 08:46 1Eris1 wrote:On December 13 2011 08:39 fourColo wrote:On December 13 2011 08:33 1Eris1 wrote:On December 13 2011 08:30 fourColo wrote:On December 13 2011 08:28 1Eris1 wrote:On December 13 2011 08:25 kratos-23 wrote:
Aocowns you need to shut the f**** up. stephano is the most successful foreigner and that's a fact, period. Such flawless logic you have there. Didn't realize IPL3, IPL4 UK Qual and ESWC trumped Two MLGs, a Dreamhack, Homestory, achieveing Code S and getting a Ro.8 in Code S ... They kind of do in terms of dollars actually. So because IPL 3 gave out 6x as much as a MLG it was 6x more accomplishing? Is his IPL 3 win also more impressive than Nada's 4 (or was it 5?) consecutive Code S ro.8 runs? Because I mean those only gave out like 3k a pop... prize money=/=difficulty necessarily True, but it's also measurable. So is ELO, and by that metric Stephano is also above Huk currently. If you want to measure all time success, Huk's peak is higher than Stephanos. There's two think you're trying to compare here, 1) past success and 2) predictions of future success. You might have a point that Huk (or some other foreigner) is more likely to succeed in the future because he has more high profile televised tournament wins than Stephano. It's really hard to predict the future though. But if we're looking at past success, Stephano is more successful in terms of winnings than any other foreigner. You can't argue this without bringing up unrecorded tournament winnings that we don't know about. Another measure might be salary or sponsorship but that's information that we don't have available. Actually I was kind of arguing the opposite. I think HuK is the most sucessful foreigner overall (based on wins, not cash, because if we go by cash FD is still the sixth most sucessful player of all time or something), but as of late Stephano has been the most sucessful and thus is probably the most likely to suceed in the near future. But yeah I see what you mean. (No clue on salary either, but those aren't necessarily reflective of skill/sucess. Destiny might honestly have a bigger salary than some strong foreigners like Hasu or something, just because of his exposure, not his skill) Basing on wins is tricky because Stephano has actually won a shitload of small tournaments that I've never heard of. Both probably have won a lot of small, unrecorded tournaments, show matches too etc. I would say FD has been extremely successful, but I would not say that I would expect his success to continue into the future.
I guess then, HuK is the most sucessful overall, but Stephano is the best? Currently at least? (As in, if I had to pick one of them to win X tournament, it would probably be Stephano.
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The people who say that Idra has more results: keep in my mind that he has been in a shitload more tournaments than Stephano (in fact, more than anybody else in SC2.) Also, Stephano has not been playing full time up until shortly before IPL 3.
So the fact that their results are even comparable shows that Stephano is quite a bit more talented.
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On December 13 2011 08:48 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 08:39 fourColo wrote:On December 13 2011 08:33 1Eris1 wrote:On December 13 2011 08:30 fourColo wrote:On December 13 2011 08:28 1Eris1 wrote:On December 13 2011 08:25 kratos-23 wrote:
Aocowns you need to shut the f**** up. stephano is the most successful foreigner and that's a fact, period. Such flawless logic you have there. Didn't realize IPL3, IPL4 UK Qual and ESWC trumped Two MLGs, a Dreamhack, Homestory, achieveing Code S and getting a Ro.8 in Code S ... They kind of do in terms of dollars actually. So because IPL 3 gave out 6x as much as a MLG it was 6x more accomplishing? Is his IPL 3 win also more impressive than Nada's 4 (or was it 5?) consecutive Code S ro.8 runs? Because I mean those only gave out like 3k a pop... prize money=/=difficulty necessarily True, but it's also measurable. So is ELO, and by that metric Stephano is also above Huk currently. If you want to measure all time success, Huk's peak is higher than Stephanos. There's two think you're trying to compare here, 1) past success and 2) predictions of future success. You might have a point that Huk (or some other foreigner) is more likely to succeed in the future because he has more high profile televised tournament wins than Stephano. It's really hard to predict the future though. But if we're looking at past success, Stephano is more successful in terms of winnings than any other foreigner. You can't argue this without bringing up unrecorded tournament winnings that we don't know about. Another measure might be salary or sponsorship but that's information that we don't have available. Measuring how good a player is by ELO and monetary prize is the worst example. Case in-point for ELO: the top 5 power ranking shit. Look at it to the right. It's Nani, Nerchio, Stephano, Kas, SaSe. They count small tournaments that have sub-par players in them so some players ELO gets inflated. I'm not saying these guys are bad, but do you think Nerchio is better than HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Sen, the list goes on.
ELO is not a measure of skill. Measuring skill is done by having two players play each other, and if you were to ask, "Do you think Nerchio would beat Stephano" I would probably say no. But the only way to get a high ELO is by winning, and the only way to get an extremly high ELO is by winning a lot. Those top five players have won a lot recently, that's what ELO is telling you and I don't disagree with either of those top 5 lists.
The sticky situation arises when you want to find a dominant player to place your bets on. People say "I'll bet on stephano because he beat player X in an extremely dominant fashion". And that's fine because people should be free to choose their favorite player. But if you're going to argue that player X is more successful than player Y, you should have better arguments than "well he had a really strong showing in this tournament" or "he has some wins but not against people I consider to be good".
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On December 13 2011 08:49 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 08:42 JohnMatrix wrote:On December 13 2011 08:41 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 08:39 Crushinator wrote:On December 13 2011 08:34 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 08:28 JohnMatrix wrote:On December 13 2011 08:20 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 08:18 BlazeFury01 wrote:On December 13 2011 08:13 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 08:00 BlazeFury01 wrote:
[quote]
Link me games/youtube videos or any evidence where somebody has "LUCKED" their way to a final and I'll believe you. Also, you just admitted that you "HEARD" luckys ZvZ was bad without doing any research to verify if it was true. People can say Idra is the worst ZvT in the world, does that mean it's true? No, it doesn't. So, you really look like an idiot saying the stupid things you did in your previous post. Nobody is twisting your words either. I pointed out individual quotes on post and questioned them with "evidence" backing my argument. You however, have no evidence. Also, nobody was even talking about anything being "legendary" so why did you bring that up? And keep in mind, NOBODY expected a foreigner to win IPL especially Stephano (at that time). So, give credit where credit is due. ''So, you saying Stephano's wins during the whole IPL is not legit is just plain ignorant and erroneous.'' This is what I responded to, when I asked you to stop twisting my words. Please, you said you pointed out individual quotes. Where do I say Stephano's win was not legit? Yes, I ''HEARD'' Lucky's ZvZ was bad. You corrected me, and I accepted it. Stop fucking herp derping on that. I exagerrated with the ''legendary'' That's waht people do. There is nothing special about beating Koreans, whose skill level is that of a low Code A player. Whether you are Korean or not doesn't matter. If he actually defeated some Code S level opponents, or some top Code A, then I would glady give credit(Read more credit than I already give him, cus I have already stated it was not bad AT ALL) Also, why would you bring up that Lucky was in the finals earlier? Yes, he deserved it, he defeated MMA! in ZvT -.-' Another match up. But it was not Lucky we were talking about, it was Stephano. I brought up lucky because you asked "who did stephano play in a lan that was legit". Stephano has beaten Code S players. DRG is no easy opponent Those stats with Lucky. What opponents were those against? Code A players? We are talking about IPL3, not BlizzCup. [troll]Idra has beat Puma a random code B player 3-0 trolololn that show he must be supra good. yes i just have faith in the unfair code x classification and not by the caliber of players[/troll] btw TheSTC is a code S caliber too. etc. I didn't realize this was about Idra. Btw, Puma is not Code B... I never claimed StC not to be good, but imo he is not Code S caliber... He was the best player Stephano played at IPL3, and that's not particularily impressive He played Huk. When? The group stages that didn't really mean anything? Yes Like every victory by Stephano but Idras victory even the meaningless count a lot -_- But i'm sure you would use his lost vs Alive easily -_- Did I? I am avoiding using any pool play matches, as they were all kind of pointless. People were tired because they just got there, it didn't contribute to the main tourny etc. I didn't see any of them, so I am not mentioning them. Stop assuming I'd use every fucking reason to hate on him -.-' For fucks sake, I am not Edit: Why the fuck do you keep adding in Idra??!?!?! There is absolutely no reason for you to do taht, wtf -.-
Because I try to convince you for god sake its lame to tell a player had a luck path or some stupid excuses who in the end can be apply to any player, even Idra because you are a hardcore fan according to your signature. I can tell to myself 'Idra was lucky vs Boxer that it was an extended serie because he would have lost if not, or 'Idra was lucky to get out of his group stage at the IEM China, he was really close to be out of the tournament' etc. etc.
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On December 13 2011 08:52 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 08:49 fourColo wrote:On December 13 2011 08:46 1Eris1 wrote:On December 13 2011 08:39 fourColo wrote:On December 13 2011 08:33 1Eris1 wrote:On December 13 2011 08:30 fourColo wrote:On December 13 2011 08:28 1Eris1 wrote:On December 13 2011 08:25 kratos-23 wrote:
Aocowns you need to shut the f**** up. stephano is the most successful foreigner and that's a fact, period. Such flawless logic you have there. Didn't realize IPL3, IPL4 UK Qual and ESWC trumped Two MLGs, a Dreamhack, Homestory, achieveing Code S and getting a Ro.8 in Code S ... They kind of do in terms of dollars actually. So because IPL 3 gave out 6x as much as a MLG it was 6x more accomplishing? Is his IPL 3 win also more impressive than Nada's 4 (or was it 5?) consecutive Code S ro.8 runs? Because I mean those only gave out like 3k a pop... prize money=/=difficulty necessarily True, but it's also measurable. So is ELO, and by that metric Stephano is also above Huk currently. If you want to measure all time success, Huk's peak is higher than Stephanos. There's two think you're trying to compare here, 1) past success and 2) predictions of future success. You might have a point that Huk (or some other foreigner) is more likely to succeed in the future because he has more high profile televised tournament wins than Stephano. It's really hard to predict the future though. But if we're looking at past success, Stephano is more successful in terms of winnings than any other foreigner. You can't argue this without bringing up unrecorded tournament winnings that we don't know about. Another measure might be salary or sponsorship but that's information that we don't have available. Actually I was kind of arguing the opposite. I think HuK is the most sucessful foreigner overall (based on wins, not cash, because if we go by cash FD is still the sixth most sucessful player of all time or something), but as of late Stephano has been the most sucessful and thus is probably the most likely to suceed in the near future. But yeah I see what you mean. (No clue on salary either, but those aren't necessarily reflective of skill/sucess. Destiny might honestly have a bigger salary than some strong foreigners like Hasu or something, just because of his exposure, not his skill) Basing on wins is tricky because Stephano has actually won a shitload of small tournaments that I've never heard of. Both probably have won a lot of small, unrecorded tournaments, show matches too etc. I would say FD has been extremely successful, but I would not say that I would expect his success to continue into the future. I guess then, HuK is the most sucessful overall, but Stephano is the best? Currently at least? (As in, if I had to pick one of them to win X tournament, it would probably be Stephano.
Stephano has:
1) the largest recorded foreigner tournament winnings on sc2earnings.com
2) a lot of recent winnings
#2 is important because Fruitdealer has more winnings, but they're winnings from a long time ago. If you were asked who is better, FD or Stephano back after GSL1, you would say FD because no one knew who Stephano was at that time. But recent winnings provide a stronger argument for success in the near future.
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