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On December 13 2011 07:07 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 07:05 Zath.erin wrote:On December 13 2011 06:32 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 06:24 Zath.erin wrote:On December 13 2011 06:15 hunts wrote:On December 13 2011 06:13 The KY wrote:On December 13 2011 05:48 FlyingDike wrote:
I need to make a "Why I Think Stephano is Trash" thread. He sucked at blizzard cup, and this thread should be closed. It's no longer debatable whether stephano is good -- he's not. Now let's move on. Loses a game each to MVP and MC; terrible beyond debate. Flawless logic. Idra has taken games off both and a series off MC while stephano hasn't, and people still try to call stephano better than idra. Stephano has won over double what Idra did since release in a 4 month period when he started playing seriously, not only did he win twice Idra's total earnings but he did so beating tougher opponents. I'm not one to base results or a players skill purely off who they've beaten but if you want to go by that Stephano is likely ahead of any foreigner. I'm not even a big Stephano fan but go watch his stream and then watch any other foreigners in comparison and the difference will be pretty glaring. Sure he may be a little overhyped, but even last night he beat DRG and HerO, and if he hadn't for whatever reason done a dumb all in vs MC i'm possitive he would have beaten him. Then it would have been Stephano making it through instead of MC, but regardless, haters gonna hate and fanboys gonna fan. Both Idra and Stephano aren't consistent eneough. Idra loses early too much. Stephano has these ridicolous losses as well. Stephano wins IPL3(Though I think he lucked out, dodging all the big guns) where Idra fails hard against TheStC. Then, Idra wins macro games against fucking Bomber, while Stephano loses to Boxer in macro games. Now, Idra is behind on metagame and practice, so isn't showin results. Give it a couple more months, and it will all be clearer. I for one, doubt that Stephano can continue having success. (Doubt is not the same as hope, guys. Just pointing that out) By the way, Stephano hasn't beaten tougher opponents than Idra I think. Bar now, against DRG and Hero. Stephanos' earnings are from 2 tournaments with insane prize pools, and as I said, he lucked out at IPL3. I guess we'll have to disagree on this point, Idra's only major tournament win that had Koreans in it was IEM china, and it was a somewhat weak line up where he didn't have a single Korean in his group stage. He beat Revival, Puma and Elfi to win it which is impressive as we know Puma is a beast. If you compare that to IPL 3 though, where stephano beat 4 Koreans in a row to win it, after beating Revival, Puzzle AND MMA just to qualify. I guess you're just gonna say he got all the easy Koreans, I guess that's true, it was just lucky (pun intended) for him the Korean he beat 4-0 took out all the hard ones on the other side of the bracket. Also you realise that without the lame extended series rule, Idra would have lost to Boxer in that very same tournament and ended up squeaking by, by one game. Regardless they're both great players, but it's just sad seeing all the people trying to discredit Stephano all the time. it's not just about winning tournaments, Idra has done very well in the recent MLGs where he has faced tougher koreans than the ones stephano faced at his one legit win. Idra also used to be in code S which was quite competitive, unless you want to try to discredit that as well somehow?
I'm not disagreeing with you here, Idra has made it very deep in tough MLG's since the koreans got onto the scene, but another issue with that is he's always in group play which rarely had more then one korean and was filled with pretty weak NA players. He was almost always garantee'd a top 1 or 2 finish in his group which meant he didn't actually play that many games. You might think I'm just trying to discredit him but I'm putting it in perspective, MLG had a pretty flawed system this season imo. Hopefully MLG changes their system and starts paying out a bit more next season though because then the money earned might be a bit closer between the two, MLG is probably the toughest tournament when you compare money to the calibre of players involved. Idra was a code s mainstay while in Korea for sure, and would probably be even better now if he hadn't left.
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On December 13 2011 07:40 JohnMatrix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 07:37 1Eris1 wrote:On December 13 2011 07:33 Seeker wrote:
After watching Stephano's performance in Blizzard Cup, I am fully convinced that he is Code S material. He went 2-2 against top Code S players. Showing that he indeed does have what it takes to be at the top.
But what I am wondering is, how far can he make it? He needs to play players that have been consistent in Code S like MVP, NesTea, MMA, etc. etc. to truly evaluate his skills. AND NOT A FREAKING BO1 EITHER!! Just a small correction, he went 1-2 vs Code S players. Hero is barely mid level Code A if anything hes a caliber code S, it would be silly to says hes not. you cant win vs sen 4-0 like this. asd, yu gi oh and violet are code s players for you ? (and its not the fact that stephano beat HerO or not)
No he's not. His play in Code A and Blizzard Cup prove that. The second half of your post is incomprehensible though so yeah not sure you're saying.
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On December 13 2011 07:28 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 07:16 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 07:05 Zath.erin wrote:On December 13 2011 06:32 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 06:24 Zath.erin wrote:On December 13 2011 06:15 hunts wrote:On December 13 2011 06:13 The KY wrote:On December 13 2011 05:48 FlyingDike wrote:
I need to make a "Why I Think Stephano is Trash" thread. He sucked at blizzard cup, and this thread should be closed. It's no longer debatable whether stephano is good -- he's not. Now let's move on. Loses a game each to MVP and MC; terrible beyond debate. Flawless logic. Idra has taken games off both and a series off MC while stephano hasn't, and people still try to call stephano better than idra. Stephano has won over double what Idra did since release in a 4 month period when he started playing seriously, not only did he win twice Idra's total earnings but he did so beating tougher opponents. I'm not one to base results or a players skill purely off who they've beaten but if you want to go by that Stephano is likely ahead of any foreigner. I'm not even a big Stephano fan but go watch his stream and then watch any other foreigners in comparison and the difference will be pretty glaring. Sure he may be a little overhyped, but even last night he beat DRG and HerO, and if he hadn't for whatever reason done a dumb all in vs MC i'm possitive he would have beaten him. Then it would have been Stephano making it through instead of MC, but regardless, haters gonna hate and fanboys gonna fan. Both Idra and Stephano aren't consistent eneough. Idra loses early too much. Stephano has these ridicolous losses as well. Stephano wins IPL3(Though I think he lucked out, dodging all the big guns) where Idra fails hard against TheStC. Then, Idra wins macro games against fucking Bomber, while Stephano loses to Boxer in macro games. Now, Idra is behind on metagame and practice, so isn't showin results. Give it a couple more months, and it will all be clearer. I for one, doubt that Stephano can continue having success. (Doubt is not the same as hope, guys. Just pointing that out) By the way, Stephano hasn't beaten tougher opponents than Idra I think. Bar now, against DRG and Hero. Stephanos' earnings are from 2 tournaments with insane prize pools, and as I said, he lucked out at IPL3. I guess we'll have to disagree on this point, Idra's only major tournament win that had Koreans in it was IEM china, and it was a somewhat weak line up where he didn't have a single Korean in his group stage. He beat Revival, Puma and Elfi to win it which is impressive as we know Puma is a beast. If you compare that to IPL 3 though, where stephano beat 4 Koreans in a row to win it, after beating Revival, Puzzle AND MMA just to qualify. I guess you're just gonna say he got all the easy Koreans, I guess that's true, it was just lucky (pun intended) for him the Korean he beat 4-0 took out all the hard ones on the other side of the bracket. Also you realise that without the lame extended series rule, Idra would have lost to Boxer in that very same tournament and ended up squeaking by, by one game. Regardless they're both great players, but it's just sad seeing all the people trying to discredit Stephano all the time. There really isn't anything to disagree about. Congrats to stephano on winning in an online qualifier against a cross server Korean in the middle of the night. That is not legit at all, imo. Freshen my mind, who did he play against at the actual LAN? I know that he beat Lucky in a ZvZ 4-0 in the finals. Lucky has a somewhat shitty ZvZ if I remember correctly. and about the Boxer thing. Boxer cheesed the fuck out of Idra, while Stephano lost in macro games. God, we should stop downplaying thei achievments  They are both great players, but we have not seen eneough recent.(Idra's recent games were plagued by 2 months of travel, with only 1 week over that period of time in the house for practice) lol your post is so contradicting it's ridiculous. First off, you can't "luck" your way to a final. Second off, you bring up "his win against MMA not being legit" a sentence later you question "who did he play against at an actual LAN" and then you mention he beat lucky 4-0 in the "FINALS". Keyword: FINALS. Lucky was in the FINALS for a reason. Also, you mentioned that lucky has a "shitty ZvZ". look at Luckys ZvZ on the international scene and show me where (besides his losses to stephano) where lucky lost a set. In the Korean scene it's 3-5. This reason exactly: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=sc2-international&type=players&id=961&part=games&league=standardSo, you saying Stephano's wins during the whole IPL is not legit is just plain ignorant and erroneous. People like you should seriously stop posting. It's irritating reading the stuff idiots like you write.
First off, you CAN luck yourself into a final. I asked politely who Stephano played to get there, and I specified that I wasn't sure about Lucky, but that hisZvZ looked bad, and taht I previously heard it was bad. A win against MMA while he's playing cross server on an effed up time is not legit. That is not even arguable.
Stop twisting my words. I never said his win wasn't legit, I just said he dodged the big guns. It is by no means bad to win the IPL3, but it is by no means legendary, especially considering the best player he beat was StC -.-'. he beat Violet(Barely code A) and Inori, who quite frankly is shit at everything but PvP. He really lucked out on the opponents.
and FYI, I see you equally as an ignorant idiot
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On December 13 2011 07:40 JohnMatrix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 07:37 1Eris1 wrote:On December 13 2011 07:33 Seeker wrote:
After watching Stephano's performance in Blizzard Cup, I am fully convinced that he is Code S material. He went 2-2 against top Code S players. Showing that he indeed does have what it takes to be at the top.
But what I am wondering is, how far can he make it? He needs to play players that have been consistent in Code S like MVP, NesTea, MMA, etc. etc. to truly evaluate his skills. AND NOT A FREAKING BO1 EITHER!! Just a small correction, he went 1-2 vs Code S players. Hero is barely mid level Code A if anything hes a caliber code S, it would be silly to says hes not. you cant win vs sen 4-0 like this. asd, yu gi oh and violet are code s players for you ? (and its not the fact that stephano beat HerO or not)
Would be silly to say he's not? Why does he keep flopping hard out of Code A? Why did he just go 0-4 in this Cup?
I'm confused about your second sentence. Hero lost to Asd, pretty sure Yu-gi-oh is in up and downs (not 100% on that) and not Code S and I don't even think Violet is in the GSL anymore?
I love Hero as much as the next guy, but his play currently reflects that of a low Code Aer and theres no debating that. Beating foreigners does not make you Code S
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On December 13 2011 07:47 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 07:40 JohnMatrix wrote:On December 13 2011 07:37 1Eris1 wrote:On December 13 2011 07:33 Seeker wrote:
After watching Stephano's performance in Blizzard Cup, I am fully convinced that he is Code S material. He went 2-2 against top Code S players. Showing that he indeed does have what it takes to be at the top.
But what I am wondering is, how far can he make it? He needs to play players that have been consistent in Code S like MVP, NesTea, MMA, etc. etc. to truly evaluate his skills. AND NOT A FREAKING BO1 EITHER!! Just a small correction, he went 1-2 vs Code S players. Hero is barely mid level Code A if anything hes a caliber code S, it would be silly to says hes not. you cant win vs sen 4-0 like this. asd, yu gi oh and violet are code s players for you ? (and its not the fact that stephano beat HerO or not) Would be silly to say he's not? Why does he keep flopping hard out of Code A? Why did he just go 0-4 in this Cup? I'm confused about your second sentence. Hero lost to Asd, pretty sure Yu-gi-oh is in up and downs (not 100% on that) and not Code S and I don't even think Violet is in the GSL anymore? I love Hero as much as the next guy, but his play currently reflects that of a low Code Aer and theres no debating that. Beating foreigners does not make you Code S
TL writers who said he was the best protoss in the world are going to be sad to hear that.
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The way I see it IdrA has amazing ZvT past the early game, very solid and truly world class, probably better than Stephano. But that is the only matchup he is exceptional in. He has shown how great he can be at MLG. His ZvZ and ZvP are not nearly as good in my eyes, and one world class matchup does not make a world class player. Adding to this the fact that IdrA is mentally unstable and often defeats himself. Thats why I feel Stephano is the more well rounded and probably overall better foreign Zerg right now.
It is possible to give your opinion on this matter without discrediting either player's achievements,
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On December 13 2011 07:43 Olinimm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 07:40 JohnMatrix wrote:On December 13 2011 07:37 1Eris1 wrote:On December 13 2011 07:33 Seeker wrote:
After watching Stephano's performance in Blizzard Cup, I am fully convinced that he is Code S material. He went 2-2 against top Code S players. Showing that he indeed does have what it takes to be at the top.
But what I am wondering is, how far can he make it? He needs to play players that have been consistent in Code S like MVP, NesTea, MMA, etc. etc. to truly evaluate his skills. AND NOT A FREAKING BO1 EITHER!! Just a small correction, he went 1-2 vs Code S players. Hero is barely mid level Code A if anything hes a caliber code S, it would be silly to says hes not. you cant win vs sen 4-0 like this. asd, yu gi oh and violet are code s players for you ? (and its not the fact that stephano beat HerO or not) No he's not. His play in Code A and Blizzard Cup prove that. The second half of your sentence is incomprehensible though so yeah not sure you're saying.
People can have bad draw's or nerve issues until they get past them, it doesn't mean they don't belong there. Look at Leenock he was a code A mainstay for so long, and yet as soon as he makes code S he makes it to the finals, the skill level between these players is much closer then you think. If you watch HerO on his stream he is much better then he shows a lot of the time, he just has major nerve issues.
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On December 13 2011 07:51 Crushinator wrote:
The way I see it IdrA has amazing ZvT past the early game, very solid and truly world class, probably better than Stephano. But that is the only matchup he is exceptional in. He has shown how great he can be at MLG. His ZvZ and ZvP are not nearly as good in my eyes, and one world class matchup does not make a world class player. Adding to this the fact that IdrA is mentally unstable and often defeats himself. Thats why I feel Stephano is the more well rounded and probably overall better foreign Zerg right now.
It is possible to give your opinion on this matter without discrediting either player's achievements,
Idras zvz is bad? I guess you chose not to watch his series vs nestea at the last MLG, since stephano wasn't part of it? I guess you conveniently didn't watch how his only zvz loss there was to leenock who stomped thru the entire tournament? Hmm, I suppose stephanno has better zvz though since you said so.
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Nerve issues are kind of a moot point. It's as if a player has an "ideal" skill level that they just can't achieve in live tournaments because of nerves. Practice games don't count for shit, no one cares if you can beat MVP ten games out of ten behind closed doors if you can't take a map off him live. Managing mental state is part of SC2 skill and if you can't manage it you're not a top player.
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He is a really good SC2-player, however i still can't understand how Bischu 5-0'd all of Millenium.
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On December 13 2011 07:44 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 07:28 BlazeFury01 wrote:On December 13 2011 07:16 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 07:05 Zath.erin wrote:On December 13 2011 06:32 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 06:24 Zath.erin wrote:On December 13 2011 06:15 hunts wrote:On December 13 2011 06:13 The KY wrote:On December 13 2011 05:48 FlyingDike wrote:
I need to make a "Why I Think Stephano is Trash" thread. He sucked at blizzard cup, and this thread should be closed. It's no longer debatable whether stephano is good -- he's not. Now let's move on. Loses a game each to MVP and MC; terrible beyond debate. Flawless logic. Idra has taken games off both and a series off MC while stephano hasn't, and people still try to call stephano better than idra. Stephano has won over double what Idra did since release in a 4 month period when he started playing seriously, not only did he win twice Idra's total earnings but he did so beating tougher opponents. I'm not one to base results or a players skill purely off who they've beaten but if you want to go by that Stephano is likely ahead of any foreigner. I'm not even a big Stephano fan but go watch his stream and then watch any other foreigners in comparison and the difference will be pretty glaring. Sure he may be a little overhyped, but even last night he beat DRG and HerO, and if he hadn't for whatever reason done a dumb all in vs MC i'm possitive he would have beaten him. Then it would have been Stephano making it through instead of MC, but regardless, haters gonna hate and fanboys gonna fan. Both Idra and Stephano aren't consistent eneough. Idra loses early too much. Stephano has these ridicolous losses as well. Stephano wins IPL3(Though I think he lucked out, dodging all the big guns) where Idra fails hard against TheStC. Then, Idra wins macro games against fucking Bomber, while Stephano loses to Boxer in macro games. Now, Idra is behind on metagame and practice, so isn't showin results. Give it a couple more months, and it will all be clearer. I for one, doubt that Stephano can continue having success. (Doubt is not the same as hope, guys. Just pointing that out) By the way, Stephano hasn't beaten tougher opponents than Idra I think. Bar now, against DRG and Hero. Stephanos' earnings are from 2 tournaments with insane prize pools, and as I said, he lucked out at IPL3. I guess we'll have to disagree on this point, Idra's only major tournament win that had Koreans in it was IEM china, and it was a somewhat weak line up where he didn't have a single Korean in his group stage. He beat Revival, Puma and Elfi to win it which is impressive as we know Puma is a beast. If you compare that to IPL 3 though, where stephano beat 4 Koreans in a row to win it, after beating Revival, Puzzle AND MMA just to qualify. I guess you're just gonna say he got all the easy Koreans, I guess that's true, it was just lucky (pun intended) for him the Korean he beat 4-0 took out all the hard ones on the other side of the bracket. Also you realise that without the lame extended series rule, Idra would have lost to Boxer in that very same tournament and ended up squeaking by, by one game. Regardless they're both great players, but it's just sad seeing all the people trying to discredit Stephano all the time. There really isn't anything to disagree about. Congrats to stephano on winning in an online qualifier against a cross server Korean in the middle of the night. That is not legit at all, imo. Freshen my mind, who did he play against at the actual LAN? I know that he beat Lucky in a ZvZ 4-0 in the finals. Lucky has a somewhat shitty ZvZ if I remember correctly. and about the Boxer thing. Boxer cheesed the fuck out of Idra, while Stephano lost in macro games. God, we should stop downplaying thei achievments They are both great players, but we have not seen eneough recent.(Idra's recent games were plagued by 2 months of travel, with only 1 week over that period of time in the house for practice) lol your post is so contradicting it's ridiculous. First off, you can't "luck" your way to a final. Second off, you bring up "his win against MMA not being legit" a sentence later you question "who did he play against at an actual LAN" and then you mention he beat lucky 4-0 in the "FINALS". Keyword: FINALS. Lucky was in the FINALS for a reason. Also, you mentioned that lucky has a "shitty ZvZ". look at Luckys ZvZ on the international scene and show me where (besides his losses to stephano) where lucky lost a set. In the Korean scene it's 3-5. This reason exactly: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=sc2-international&type=players&id=961&part=games&league=standardSo, you saying Stephano's wins during the whole IPL is not legit is just plain ignorant and erroneous. People like you should seriously stop posting. It's irritating reading the stuff idiots like you write. First off, you CAN luck yourself into a final. I asked politely who Stephano played to get there, and I specified that I wasn't sure about Lucky, but that hisZvZ looked bad, and taht I previously heard it was bad. A win against MMA while he's playing cross server on an effed up time is not legit. That is not even arguable. Stop twisting my words. I never said his win wasn't legit, I just said he dodged the big guns. It is by no means bad to win the IPL3, but it is by no means legendary, especially considering the best player he beat was StC -.-'. he beat Violet(Barely code A) and Inori, who quite frankly is shit at everything but PvP. He really lucked out on the opponents. and FYI, I see you equally as an ignorant idiot
Link me games/youtube videos or any evidence where somebody has "LUCKED" their way to a final and I'll believe you. Also, you just admitted that you "HEARD" luckys ZvZ was bad without doing any research to verify if it was true. People can say Idra is the worst ZvT in the world, does that mean it's true? No, it doesn't. So, you really look like an idiot saying the stupid things you did in your previous post. Nobody is twisting your words either. I pointed out individual quotes on post and questioned them with "evidence" backing my argument. You however, have no evidence. Also, nobody was even talking about anything being "legendary" so why did you bring that up? And keep in mind, NOBODY expected a foreigner to win IPL especially Stephano (at that time). So, give credit where credit is due.
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I guess I see why Stephano never bothers to read threads, this is so pointless.
He'll never please those who are convinced he isn't as good as korean's/better than koreans/best foreigner/better than idra.
And reverse for those who believe in him deeply.
Frankly, I just enjoy watching him play, I think he has a distinct style, that works for him, and his play methodology, and if it is doing him well, brilliant. Regardless of his achievements, I'll watch him till he quits. Idra, I'll also watch, as both are really good to observe.
Whether or not they'll become the best in the world/non-korea. Who cares ... why do we have to argue about "best", it is so subjective ...
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On December 13 2011 07:58 fourColo wrote:
Nerve issues are kind of a moot point. It's as if a player has an "ideal" skill level that they just can't achieve in live tournaments because of nerves. Practice games don't count for shit, no one cares if you can beat MVP ten games out of ten behind closed doors if you can't take a map off him live. Managing mental state is part of SC2 skill and if you can't manage it you're not a top player.
[troll]So Idra is not a top player because he loose frequently his mental state and has lost vs Capoch or something at WCG ?[/troll]
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On December 13 2011 07:56 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 07:51 Crushinator wrote:
The way I see it IdrA has amazing ZvT past the early game, very solid and truly world class, probably better than Stephano. But that is the only matchup he is exceptional in. He has shown how great he can be at MLG. His ZvZ and ZvP are not nearly as good in my eyes, and one world class matchup does not make a world class player. Adding to this the fact that IdrA is mentally unstable and often defeats himself. Thats why I feel Stephano is the more well rounded and probably overall better foreign Zerg right now.
It is possible to give your opinion on this matter without discrediting either player's achievements, Idras zvz is bad? I guess you chose not to watch his series vs nestea at the last MLG, since stephano wasn't part of it? I guess you conveniently didn't watch how his only zvz loss there was to leenock who stomped thru the entire tournament? Hmm, I suppose stephanno has better zvz though since you said so.
I did watch, and he did lose to both Nestea and Leenock. It was a good showing though. But you are citing a tournament in which he did not win a ZvZ series to somehow convince me his ZvZ is good? And he habitually loses to 'lesser' Zergs, I do indeed think Stephano has better ZvZ and ZvP, whats your point?
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On December 13 2011 08:00 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 07:44 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 07:28 BlazeFury01 wrote:On December 13 2011 07:16 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 07:05 Zath.erin wrote:On December 13 2011 06:32 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 06:24 Zath.erin wrote:On December 13 2011 06:15 hunts wrote:On December 13 2011 06:13 The KY wrote:On December 13 2011 05:48 FlyingDike wrote:
I need to make a "Why I Think Stephano is Trash" thread. He sucked at blizzard cup, and this thread should be closed. It's no longer debatable whether stephano is good -- he's not. Now let's move on. Loses a game each to MVP and MC; terrible beyond debate. Flawless logic. Idra has taken games off both and a series off MC while stephano hasn't, and people still try to call stephano better than idra. Stephano has won over double what Idra did since release in a 4 month period when he started playing seriously, not only did he win twice Idra's total earnings but he did so beating tougher opponents. I'm not one to base results or a players skill purely off who they've beaten but if you want to go by that Stephano is likely ahead of any foreigner. I'm not even a big Stephano fan but go watch his stream and then watch any other foreigners in comparison and the difference will be pretty glaring. Sure he may be a little overhyped, but even last night he beat DRG and HerO, and if he hadn't for whatever reason done a dumb all in vs MC i'm possitive he would have beaten him. Then it would have been Stephano making it through instead of MC, but regardless, haters gonna hate and fanboys gonna fan. Both Idra and Stephano aren't consistent eneough. Idra loses early too much. Stephano has these ridicolous losses as well. Stephano wins IPL3(Though I think he lucked out, dodging all the big guns) where Idra fails hard against TheStC. Then, Idra wins macro games against fucking Bomber, while Stephano loses to Boxer in macro games. Now, Idra is behind on metagame and practice, so isn't showin results. Give it a couple more months, and it will all be clearer. I for one, doubt that Stephano can continue having success. (Doubt is not the same as hope, guys. Just pointing that out) By the way, Stephano hasn't beaten tougher opponents than Idra I think. Bar now, against DRG and Hero. Stephanos' earnings are from 2 tournaments with insane prize pools, and as I said, he lucked out at IPL3. I guess we'll have to disagree on this point, Idra's only major tournament win that had Koreans in it was IEM china, and it was a somewhat weak line up where he didn't have a single Korean in his group stage. He beat Revival, Puma and Elfi to win it which is impressive as we know Puma is a beast. If you compare that to IPL 3 though, where stephano beat 4 Koreans in a row to win it, after beating Revival, Puzzle AND MMA just to qualify. I guess you're just gonna say he got all the easy Koreans, I guess that's true, it was just lucky (pun intended) for him the Korean he beat 4-0 took out all the hard ones on the other side of the bracket. Also you realise that without the lame extended series rule, Idra would have lost to Boxer in that very same tournament and ended up squeaking by, by one game. Regardless they're both great players, but it's just sad seeing all the people trying to discredit Stephano all the time. There really isn't anything to disagree about. Congrats to stephano on winning in an online qualifier against a cross server Korean in the middle of the night. That is not legit at all, imo. Freshen my mind, who did he play against at the actual LAN? I know that he beat Lucky in a ZvZ 4-0 in the finals. Lucky has a somewhat shitty ZvZ if I remember correctly. and about the Boxer thing. Boxer cheesed the fuck out of Idra, while Stephano lost in macro games. God, we should stop downplaying thei achievments They are both great players, but we have not seen eneough recent.(Idra's recent games were plagued by 2 months of travel, with only 1 week over that period of time in the house for practice) lol your post is so contradicting it's ridiculous. First off, you can't "luck" your way to a final. Second off, you bring up "his win against MMA not being legit" a sentence later you question "who did he play against at an actual LAN" and then you mention he beat lucky 4-0 in the "FINALS". Keyword: FINALS. Lucky was in the FINALS for a reason. Also, you mentioned that lucky has a "shitty ZvZ". look at Luckys ZvZ on the international scene and show me where (besides his losses to stephano) where lucky lost a set. In the Korean scene it's 3-5. This reason exactly: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=sc2-international&type=players&id=961&part=games&league=standardSo, you saying Stephano's wins during the whole IPL is not legit is just plain ignorant and erroneous. People like you should seriously stop posting. It's irritating reading the stuff idiots like you write. First off, you CAN luck yourself into a final. I asked politely who Stephano played to get there, and I specified that I wasn't sure about Lucky, but that hisZvZ looked bad, and taht I previously heard it was bad. A win against MMA while he's playing cross server on an effed up time is not legit. That is not even arguable. Stop twisting my words. I never said his win wasn't legit, I just said he dodged the big guns. It is by no means bad to win the IPL3, but it is by no means legendary, especially considering the best player he beat was StC -.-'. he beat Violet(Barely code A) and Inori, who quite frankly is shit at everything but PvP. He really lucked out on the opponents. and FYI, I see you equally as an ignorant idiot Link me games/youtube videos or any evidence where somebody has "LUCKED" their way to a final and I'll believe you.
Inca's GSL run was very much luck based. His PvP ratio is over 80% and PvT just over 50%, but his PvZ is 37%. He didn't play any zergs until Nestea in the finals and got stomped hard.
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On December 13 2011 07:56 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 07:51 Crushinator wrote:
The way I see it IdrA has amazing ZvT past the early game, very solid and truly world class, probably better than Stephano. But that is the only matchup he is exceptional in. He has shown how great he can be at MLG. His ZvZ and ZvP are not nearly as good in my eyes, and one world class matchup does not make a world class player. Adding to this the fact that IdrA is mentally unstable and often defeats himself. Thats why I feel Stephano is the more well rounded and probably overall better foreign Zerg right now.
It is possible to give your opinion on this matter without discrediting either player's achievements, Idras zvz is bad? I guess you chose not to watch his series vs nestea at the last MLG, since stephano wasn't part of it? I guess you conveniently didn't watch how his only zvz loss there was to leenock who stomped thru the entire tournament? Hmm, I suppose stephanno has better zvz though since you said so.
Pretty sure JP said Idra studied every single available replay of Nestea's ZvZ so obviously it was gonna look really close.
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On December 13 2011 08:00 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 07:44 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 07:28 BlazeFury01 wrote:On December 13 2011 07:16 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 07:05 Zath.erin wrote:On December 13 2011 06:32 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 06:24 Zath.erin wrote:On December 13 2011 06:15 hunts wrote:On December 13 2011 06:13 The KY wrote:On December 13 2011 05:48 FlyingDike wrote:
I need to make a "Why I Think Stephano is Trash" thread. He sucked at blizzard cup, and this thread should be closed. It's no longer debatable whether stephano is good -- he's not. Now let's move on. Loses a game each to MVP and MC; terrible beyond debate. Flawless logic. Idra has taken games off both and a series off MC while stephano hasn't, and people still try to call stephano better than idra. Stephano has won over double what Idra did since release in a 4 month period when he started playing seriously, not only did he win twice Idra's total earnings but he did so beating tougher opponents. I'm not one to base results or a players skill purely off who they've beaten but if you want to go by that Stephano is likely ahead of any foreigner. I'm not even a big Stephano fan but go watch his stream and then watch any other foreigners in comparison and the difference will be pretty glaring. Sure he may be a little overhyped, but even last night he beat DRG and HerO, and if he hadn't for whatever reason done a dumb all in vs MC i'm possitive he would have beaten him. Then it would have been Stephano making it through instead of MC, but regardless, haters gonna hate and fanboys gonna fan. Both Idra and Stephano aren't consistent eneough. Idra loses early too much. Stephano has these ridicolous losses as well. Stephano wins IPL3(Though I think he lucked out, dodging all the big guns) where Idra fails hard against TheStC. Then, Idra wins macro games against fucking Bomber, while Stephano loses to Boxer in macro games. Now, Idra is behind on metagame and practice, so isn't showin results. Give it a couple more months, and it will all be clearer. I for one, doubt that Stephano can continue having success. (Doubt is not the same as hope, guys. Just pointing that out) By the way, Stephano hasn't beaten tougher opponents than Idra I think. Bar now, against DRG and Hero. Stephanos' earnings are from 2 tournaments with insane prize pools, and as I said, he lucked out at IPL3. I guess we'll have to disagree on this point, Idra's only major tournament win that had Koreans in it was IEM china, and it was a somewhat weak line up where he didn't have a single Korean in his group stage. He beat Revival, Puma and Elfi to win it which is impressive as we know Puma is a beast. If you compare that to IPL 3 though, where stephano beat 4 Koreans in a row to win it, after beating Revival, Puzzle AND MMA just to qualify. I guess you're just gonna say he got all the easy Koreans, I guess that's true, it was just lucky (pun intended) for him the Korean he beat 4-0 took out all the hard ones on the other side of the bracket. Also you realise that without the lame extended series rule, Idra would have lost to Boxer in that very same tournament and ended up squeaking by, by one game. Regardless they're both great players, but it's just sad seeing all the people trying to discredit Stephano all the time. There really isn't anything to disagree about. Congrats to stephano on winning in an online qualifier against a cross server Korean in the middle of the night. That is not legit at all, imo. Freshen my mind, who did he play against at the actual LAN? I know that he beat Lucky in a ZvZ 4-0 in the finals. Lucky has a somewhat shitty ZvZ if I remember correctly. and about the Boxer thing. Boxer cheesed the fuck out of Idra, while Stephano lost in macro games. God, we should stop downplaying thei achievments They are both great players, but we have not seen eneough recent.(Idra's recent games were plagued by 2 months of travel, with only 1 week over that period of time in the house for practice) lol your post is so contradicting it's ridiculous. First off, you can't "luck" your way to a final. Second off, you bring up "his win against MMA not being legit" a sentence later you question "who did he play against at an actual LAN" and then you mention he beat lucky 4-0 in the "FINALS". Keyword: FINALS. Lucky was in the FINALS for a reason. Also, you mentioned that lucky has a "shitty ZvZ". look at Luckys ZvZ on the international scene and show me where (besides his losses to stephano) where lucky lost a set. In the Korean scene it's 3-5. This reason exactly: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=sc2-international&type=players&id=961&part=games&league=standardSo, you saying Stephano's wins during the whole IPL is not legit is just plain ignorant and erroneous. People like you should seriously stop posting. It's irritating reading the stuff idiots like you write. First off, you CAN luck yourself into a final. I asked politely who Stephano played to get there, and I specified that I wasn't sure about Lucky, but that hisZvZ looked bad, and taht I previously heard it was bad. A win against MMA while he's playing cross server on an effed up time is not legit. That is not even arguable. Stop twisting my words. I never said his win wasn't legit, I just said he dodged the big guns. It is by no means bad to win the IPL3, but it is by no means legendary, especially considering the best player he beat was StC -.-'. he beat Violet(Barely code A) and Inori, who quite frankly is shit at everything but PvP. He really lucked out on the opponents. and FYI, I see you equally as an ignorant idiot Link me games/youtube videos or any evidence where somebody has "LUCKED" their way to a final and I'll believe you. Also, you just admitted that you "HEARD" luckys ZvZ was bad without doing any research to verify if it was true. People can say Idra is the worst ZvT in the world, does that mean it's true? No, it doesn't. So, you really look like an idiot saying the stupid things you did in your previous post. Nobody is twisting your words either. I pointed out individual quotes on post and questioned them with "evidence" backing my argument. You however, have no evidence. Also, nobody was even talking about anything being "legendary" so why did you bring that up? And keep in mind, NOBODY expected a foreigner to win IPL especially Stephano (at that time). So, give credit where credit is due.
Pretty sure 4 gating your way to the finals is pretty lucky..
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On December 13 2011 08:05 fourColo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 08:00 BlazeFury01 wrote:On December 13 2011 07:44 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 07:28 BlazeFury01 wrote:On December 13 2011 07:16 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 07:05 Zath.erin wrote:On December 13 2011 06:32 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 06:24 Zath.erin wrote:On December 13 2011 06:15 hunts wrote:On December 13 2011 06:13 The KY wrote:
[quote]
Loses a game each to MVP and MC; terrible beyond debate.
Flawless logic. Idra has taken games off both and a series off MC while stephano hasn't, and people still try to call stephano better than idra. Stephano has won over double what Idra did since release in a 4 month period when he started playing seriously, not only did he win twice Idra's total earnings but he did so beating tougher opponents. I'm not one to base results or a players skill purely off who they've beaten but if you want to go by that Stephano is likely ahead of any foreigner. I'm not even a big Stephano fan but go watch his stream and then watch any other foreigners in comparison and the difference will be pretty glaring. Sure he may be a little overhyped, but even last night he beat DRG and HerO, and if he hadn't for whatever reason done a dumb all in vs MC i'm possitive he would have beaten him. Then it would have been Stephano making it through instead of MC, but regardless, haters gonna hate and fanboys gonna fan. Both Idra and Stephano aren't consistent eneough. Idra loses early too much. Stephano has these ridicolous losses as well. Stephano wins IPL3(Though I think he lucked out, dodging all the big guns) where Idra fails hard against TheStC. Then, Idra wins macro games against fucking Bomber, while Stephano loses to Boxer in macro games. Now, Idra is behind on metagame and practice, so isn't showin results. Give it a couple more months, and it will all be clearer. I for one, doubt that Stephano can continue having success. (Doubt is not the same as hope, guys. Just pointing that out) By the way, Stephano hasn't beaten tougher opponents than Idra I think. Bar now, against DRG and Hero. Stephanos' earnings are from 2 tournaments with insane prize pools, and as I said, he lucked out at IPL3. I guess we'll have to disagree on this point, Idra's only major tournament win that had Koreans in it was IEM china, and it was a somewhat weak line up where he didn't have a single Korean in his group stage. He beat Revival, Puma and Elfi to win it which is impressive as we know Puma is a beast. If you compare that to IPL 3 though, where stephano beat 4 Koreans in a row to win it, after beating Revival, Puzzle AND MMA just to qualify. I guess you're just gonna say he got all the easy Koreans, I guess that's true, it was just lucky (pun intended) for him the Korean he beat 4-0 took out all the hard ones on the other side of the bracket. Also you realise that without the lame extended series rule, Idra would have lost to Boxer in that very same tournament and ended up squeaking by, by one game. Regardless they're both great players, but it's just sad seeing all the people trying to discredit Stephano all the time. There really isn't anything to disagree about. Congrats to stephano on winning in an online qualifier against a cross server Korean in the middle of the night. That is not legit at all, imo. Freshen my mind, who did he play against at the actual LAN? I know that he beat Lucky in a ZvZ 4-0 in the finals. Lucky has a somewhat shitty ZvZ if I remember correctly. and about the Boxer thing. Boxer cheesed the fuck out of Idra, while Stephano lost in macro games. God, we should stop downplaying thei achievments They are both great players, but we have not seen eneough recent.(Idra's recent games were plagued by 2 months of travel, with only 1 week over that period of time in the house for practice) lol your post is so contradicting it's ridiculous. First off, you can't "luck" your way to a final. Second off, you bring up "his win against MMA not being legit" a sentence later you question "who did he play against at an actual LAN" and then you mention he beat lucky 4-0 in the "FINALS". Keyword: FINALS. Lucky was in the FINALS for a reason. Also, you mentioned that lucky has a "shitty ZvZ". look at Luckys ZvZ on the international scene and show me where (besides his losses to stephano) where lucky lost a set. In the Korean scene it's 3-5. This reason exactly: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=sc2-international&type=players&id=961&part=games&league=standardSo, you saying Stephano's wins during the whole IPL is not legit is just plain ignorant and erroneous. People like you should seriously stop posting. It's irritating reading the stuff idiots like you write. First off, you CAN luck yourself into a final. I asked politely who Stephano played to get there, and I specified that I wasn't sure about Lucky, but that hisZvZ looked bad, and taht I previously heard it was bad. A win against MMA while he's playing cross server on an effed up time is not legit. That is not even arguable. Stop twisting my words. I never said his win wasn't legit, I just said he dodged the big guns. It is by no means bad to win the IPL3, but it is by no means legendary, especially considering the best player he beat was StC -.-'. he beat Violet(Barely code A) and Inori, who quite frankly is shit at everything but PvP. He really lucked out on the opponents. and FYI, I see you equally as an ignorant idiot Link me games/youtube videos or any evidence where somebody has "LUCKED" their way to a final and I'll believe you. Inca's GSL run was very much luck based. His PvP ratio is over 80% and PvT just over 50%, but his PvZ is 37%. He didn't play any zergs until Nestea in the finals and got stomped hard.
Stephano played the 3 races at IPL so its irrevalant to says stephano had a lucky path
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On December 13 2011 08:04 JohnMatrix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 07:58 fourColo wrote:
Nerve issues are kind of a moot point. It's as if a player has an "ideal" skill level that they just can't achieve in live tournaments because of nerves. Practice games don't count for shit, no one cares if you can beat MVP ten games out of ten behind closed doors if you can't take a map off him live. Managing mental state is part of SC2 skill and if you can't manage it you're not a top player. [troll]So Idra is not a top player because he loose frequently his mental state and has lost vs Capoch or something at WCG ?[/troll]
I would argue that his predictable style loses him more tournaments than his mental state.
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On December 13 2011 08:07 JohnMatrix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 08:05 fourColo wrote:On December 13 2011 08:00 BlazeFury01 wrote:On December 13 2011 07:44 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 07:28 BlazeFury01 wrote:On December 13 2011 07:16 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 07:05 Zath.erin wrote:On December 13 2011 06:32 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 06:24 Zath.erin wrote:On December 13 2011 06:15 hunts wrote:
[quote]
Idra has taken games off both and a series off MC while stephano hasn't, and people still try to call stephano better than idra. Stephano has won over double what Idra did since release in a 4 month period when he started playing seriously, not only did he win twice Idra's total earnings but he did so beating tougher opponents. I'm not one to base results or a players skill purely off who they've beaten but if you want to go by that Stephano is likely ahead of any foreigner. I'm not even a big Stephano fan but go watch his stream and then watch any other foreigners in comparison and the difference will be pretty glaring. Sure he may be a little overhyped, but even last night he beat DRG and HerO, and if he hadn't for whatever reason done a dumb all in vs MC i'm possitive he would have beaten him. Then it would have been Stephano making it through instead of MC, but regardless, haters gonna hate and fanboys gonna fan. Both Idra and Stephano aren't consistent eneough. Idra loses early too much. Stephano has these ridicolous losses as well. Stephano wins IPL3(Though I think he lucked out, dodging all the big guns) where Idra fails hard against TheStC. Then, Idra wins macro games against fucking Bomber, while Stephano loses to Boxer in macro games. Now, Idra is behind on metagame and practice, so isn't showin results. Give it a couple more months, and it will all be clearer. I for one, doubt that Stephano can continue having success. (Doubt is not the same as hope, guys. Just pointing that out) By the way, Stephano hasn't beaten tougher opponents than Idra I think. Bar now, against DRG and Hero. Stephanos' earnings are from 2 tournaments with insane prize pools, and as I said, he lucked out at IPL3. I guess we'll have to disagree on this point, Idra's only major tournament win that had Koreans in it was IEM china, and it was a somewhat weak line up where he didn't have a single Korean in his group stage. He beat Revival, Puma and Elfi to win it which is impressive as we know Puma is a beast. If you compare that to IPL 3 though, where stephano beat 4 Koreans in a row to win it, after beating Revival, Puzzle AND MMA just to qualify. I guess you're just gonna say he got all the easy Koreans, I guess that's true, it was just lucky (pun intended) for him the Korean he beat 4-0 took out all the hard ones on the other side of the bracket. Also you realise that without the lame extended series rule, Idra would have lost to Boxer in that very same tournament and ended up squeaking by, by one game. Regardless they're both great players, but it's just sad seeing all the people trying to discredit Stephano all the time. There really isn't anything to disagree about. Congrats to stephano on winning in an online qualifier against a cross server Korean in the middle of the night. That is not legit at all, imo. Freshen my mind, who did he play against at the actual LAN? I know that he beat Lucky in a ZvZ 4-0 in the finals. Lucky has a somewhat shitty ZvZ if I remember correctly. and about the Boxer thing. Boxer cheesed the fuck out of Idra, while Stephano lost in macro games. God, we should stop downplaying thei achievments They are both great players, but we have not seen eneough recent.(Idra's recent games were plagued by 2 months of travel, with only 1 week over that period of time in the house for practice) lol your post is so contradicting it's ridiculous. First off, you can't "luck" your way to a final. Second off, you bring up "his win against MMA not being legit" a sentence later you question "who did he play against at an actual LAN" and then you mention he beat lucky 4-0 in the "FINALS". Keyword: FINALS. Lucky was in the FINALS for a reason. Also, you mentioned that lucky has a "shitty ZvZ". look at Luckys ZvZ on the international scene and show me where (besides his losses to stephano) where lucky lost a set. In the Korean scene it's 3-5. This reason exactly: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=sc2-international&type=players&id=961&part=games&league=standardSo, you saying Stephano's wins during the whole IPL is not legit is just plain ignorant and erroneous. People like you should seriously stop posting. It's irritating reading the stuff idiots like you write. First off, you CAN luck yourself into a final. I asked politely who Stephano played to get there, and I specified that I wasn't sure about Lucky, but that hisZvZ looked bad, and taht I previously heard it was bad. A win against MMA while he's playing cross server on an effed up time is not legit. That is not even arguable. Stop twisting my words. I never said his win wasn't legit, I just said he dodged the big guns. It is by no means bad to win the IPL3, but it is by no means legendary, especially considering the best player he beat was StC -.-'. he beat Violet(Barely code A) and Inori, who quite frankly is shit at everything but PvP. He really lucked out on the opponents. and FYI, I see you equally as an ignorant idiot Link me games/youtube videos or any evidence where somebody has "LUCKED" their way to a final and I'll believe you. Inca's GSL run was very much luck based. His PvP ratio is over 80% and PvT just over 50%, but his PvZ is 37%. He didn't play any zergs until Nestea in the finals and got stomped hard. Stephano played the 3 races at IPL so its irrevalant to says stephano had a lucky path
Read the thread please, BlazeFury01 was asking for an example of someone "luck"ing their way to a final.
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EPT
