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On December 13 2011 07:00 power-overwhelming wrote:
Idra fans and Stephano fans arguing are quite entertaining. Objectively though, Stephano is miles ahead of Idra, and thats coming from someone who doesn't like either players.
Based on what, if I may ask? Certainly, Stephano ZvP is leagues ahead of Idra, but I am certain Idra can catch up now that he gets to practice :D Besides taht, I'd say they are dead even. Idra has a better mid-late game ZvT though, imo. He just doesn't get there often eneough  ZvZ is hard to say, I think. They both need to play more top players.
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hes 'MERICAN!!!!!! thats why he is so good. but thats just imo.
User was warned for this post
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On December 13 2011 06:32 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 06:24 Zath.erin wrote:On December 13 2011 06:15 hunts wrote:On December 13 2011 06:13 The KY wrote:On December 13 2011 05:48 FlyingDike wrote:
I need to make a "Why I Think Stephano is Trash" thread. He sucked at blizzard cup, and this thread should be closed. It's no longer debatable whether stephano is good -- he's not. Now let's move on. Loses a game each to MVP and MC; terrible beyond debate. Flawless logic. Idra has taken games off both and a series off MC while stephano hasn't, and people still try to call stephano better than idra. Stephano has won over double what Idra did since release in a 4 month period when he started playing seriously, not only did he win twice Idra's total earnings but he did so beating tougher opponents. I'm not one to base results or a players skill purely off who they've beaten but if you want to go by that Stephano is likely ahead of any foreigner. I'm not even a big Stephano fan but go watch his stream and then watch any other foreigners in comparison and the difference will be pretty glaring. Sure he may be a little overhyped, but even last night he beat DRG and HerO, and if he hadn't for whatever reason done a dumb all in vs MC i'm possitive he would have beaten him. Then it would have been Stephano making it through instead of MC, but regardless, haters gonna hate and fanboys gonna fan. Both Idra and Stephano aren't consistent eneough. Idra loses early too much. Stephano has these ridicolous losses as well. Stephano wins IPL3(Though I think he lucked out, dodging all the big guns) where Idra fails hard against TheStC. Then, Idra wins macro games against fucking Bomber, while Stephano loses to Boxer in macro games. Now, Idra is behind on metagame and practice, so isn't showin results. Give it a couple more months, and it will all be clearer. I for one, doubt that Stephano can continue having success. (Doubt is not the same as hope, guys. Just pointing that out) By the way, Stephano hasn't beaten tougher opponents than Idra I think. Bar now, against DRG and Hero. Stephanos' earnings are from 2 tournaments with insane prize pools, and as I said, he lucked out at IPL3.
I guess we'll have to disagree on this point, Idra's only major tournament win that had Koreans in it was IEM china, and it was a somewhat weak line up where he didn't have a single Korean in his group stage. He beat Revival, Puma and Elfi to win it which is impressive as we know Puma is a beast. If you compare that to IPL 3 though, where stephano beat 4 Koreans in a row to win it, after beating Revival, Puzzle AND MMA just to qualify. I guess you're just gonna say he got all the easy Koreans, I guess that's true, it was just lucky (pun intended) for him the Korean he beat 4-0 took out all the hard ones on the other side of the bracket. Also you realise that without the lame extended series rule, Idra would have lost to Boxer in that very same tournament and ended up squeaking by, by one game. Regardless they're both great players, but it's just sad seeing all the people trying to discredit Stephano all the time.
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On December 13 2011 07:05 Zath.erin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 06:32 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 06:24 Zath.erin wrote:On December 13 2011 06:15 hunts wrote:On December 13 2011 06:13 The KY wrote:On December 13 2011 05:48 FlyingDike wrote:
I need to make a "Why I Think Stephano is Trash" thread. He sucked at blizzard cup, and this thread should be closed. It's no longer debatable whether stephano is good -- he's not. Now let's move on. Loses a game each to MVP and MC; terrible beyond debate. Flawless logic. Idra has taken games off both and a series off MC while stephano hasn't, and people still try to call stephano better than idra. Stephano has won over double what Idra did since release in a 4 month period when he started playing seriously, not only did he win twice Idra's total earnings but he did so beating tougher opponents. I'm not one to base results or a players skill purely off who they've beaten but if you want to go by that Stephano is likely ahead of any foreigner. I'm not even a big Stephano fan but go watch his stream and then watch any other foreigners in comparison and the difference will be pretty glaring. Sure he may be a little overhyped, but even last night he beat DRG and HerO, and if he hadn't for whatever reason done a dumb all in vs MC i'm possitive he would have beaten him. Then it would have been Stephano making it through instead of MC, but regardless, haters gonna hate and fanboys gonna fan. Both Idra and Stephano aren't consistent eneough. Idra loses early too much. Stephano has these ridicolous losses as well. Stephano wins IPL3(Though I think he lucked out, dodging all the big guns) where Idra fails hard against TheStC. Then, Idra wins macro games against fucking Bomber, while Stephano loses to Boxer in macro games. Now, Idra is behind on metagame and practice, so isn't showin results. Give it a couple more months, and it will all be clearer. I for one, doubt that Stephano can continue having success. (Doubt is not the same as hope, guys. Just pointing that out) By the way, Stephano hasn't beaten tougher opponents than Idra I think. Bar now, against DRG and Hero. Stephanos' earnings are from 2 tournaments with insane prize pools, and as I said, he lucked out at IPL3. I guess we'll have to disagree on this point, Idra's only major tournament win that had Koreans in it was IEM china, and it was a somewhat weak line up where he didn't have a single Korean in his group stage. He beat Revival, Puma and Elfi to win it which is impressive as we know Puma is a beast. If you compare that to IPL 3 though, where stephano beat 4 Koreans in a row to win it, after beating Revival, Puzzle AND MMA just to qualify. I guess you're just gonna say he got all the easy Koreans, I guess that's true, it was just lucky (pun intended) for him the Korean he beat 4-0 took out all the hard ones on the other side of the bracket. Also you realise that without the lame extended series rule, Idra would have lost to Boxer in that very same tournament and ended up squeaking by, by one game. Regardless they're both great players, but it's just sad seeing all the people trying to discredit Stephano all the time.
it's not just about winning tournaments, Idra has done very well in the recent MLGs where he has faced tougher koreans than the ones stephano faced at his one legit win. Idra also used to be in code S which was quite competitive, unless you want to try to discredit that as well somehow?
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On December 13 2011 06:51 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 06:46 The KY wrote:On December 13 2011 06:15 hunts wrote:On December 13 2011 06:13 The KY wrote:On December 13 2011 05:48 FlyingDike wrote:
I need to make a "Why I Think Stephano is Trash" thread. He sucked at blizzard cup, and this thread should be closed. It's no longer debatable whether stephano is good -- he's not. Now let's move on. Loses a game each to MVP and MC; terrible beyond debate. Flawless logic. Idra has taken games off both and a series off MC while stephano hasn't, and people still try to call stephano better than idra. What the fuck? I was just going to leave it at that but ok I'll elaborate; Let's assume for a minute that Stephano has played more than 3 (televised) games against MC, which he hasn't, and he's lost them all. That still wouldn't make Idra better than Stephano. I'm not personally saying that Stephano is better than Idra. I haven't seen enough of him. But saying that it's impossible because Idra has taken a couple of games off of MC in the 15-20 that they've played is...well I have no idea where the fuck you are coming from with that. They've played much less than 15, but meh, idra haters will always hate him and exadurate everything I suppose.
Oh, you again. They have actually met exactly 15 times of which idra lost 12 and won 3. You could have actually checked this before making yourself look like a fool for about the 5th time now.
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Don't care for all the pointless argument in this thread but I was impressed by Stephano's play at the Blizzard cup, although I think the roach ling all-in was unwise against a veteran of that build's defense in MC.
Would like to see him compete more in Korea because he is definitely a high level player but it is a shame he doesn't intend to continue for much longer.
I don't understand why fans feel the need to insist that there can only be one 'good' foreign zerg and every other zerg compared to him is terrible. If you're a Stephano fan (which I am), you should still recognize that IdrA has great strengths in his play. If you're an Idra fan (and I'm the biggest IdrA fanboy around), you should recognize that Stephano, too, has different but equally as great strengths in his play. You don't have to take a one-or-the-other stance on the two players when they're both extremely strong in their own ways.
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On December 13 2011 07:05 Zath.erin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 06:32 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 06:24 Zath.erin wrote:On December 13 2011 06:15 hunts wrote:On December 13 2011 06:13 The KY wrote:On December 13 2011 05:48 FlyingDike wrote:
I need to make a "Why I Think Stephano is Trash" thread. He sucked at blizzard cup, and this thread should be closed. It's no longer debatable whether stephano is good -- he's not. Now let's move on. Loses a game each to MVP and MC; terrible beyond debate. Flawless logic. Idra has taken games off both and a series off MC while stephano hasn't, and people still try to call stephano better than idra. Stephano has won over double what Idra did since release in a 4 month period when he started playing seriously, not only did he win twice Idra's total earnings but he did so beating tougher opponents. I'm not one to base results or a players skill purely off who they've beaten but if you want to go by that Stephano is likely ahead of any foreigner. I'm not even a big Stephano fan but go watch his stream and then watch any other foreigners in comparison and the difference will be pretty glaring. Sure he may be a little overhyped, but even last night he beat DRG and HerO, and if he hadn't for whatever reason done a dumb all in vs MC i'm possitive he would have beaten him. Then it would have been Stephano making it through instead of MC, but regardless, haters gonna hate and fanboys gonna fan. Both Idra and Stephano aren't consistent eneough. Idra loses early too much. Stephano has these ridicolous losses as well. Stephano wins IPL3(Though I think he lucked out, dodging all the big guns) where Idra fails hard against TheStC. Then, Idra wins macro games against fucking Bomber, while Stephano loses to Boxer in macro games. Now, Idra is behind on metagame and practice, so isn't showin results. Give it a couple more months, and it will all be clearer. I for one, doubt that Stephano can continue having success. (Doubt is not the same as hope, guys. Just pointing that out) By the way, Stephano hasn't beaten tougher opponents than Idra I think. Bar now, against DRG and Hero. Stephanos' earnings are from 2 tournaments with insane prize pools, and as I said, he lucked out at IPL3. I guess we'll have to disagree on this point, Idra's only major tournament win that had Koreans in it was IEM china, and it was a somewhat weak line up where he didn't have a single Korean in his group stage. He beat Revival, Puma and Elfi to win it which is impressive as we know Puma is a beast. If you compare that to IPL 3 though, where stephano beat 4 Koreans in a row to win it, after beating Revival, Puzzle AND MMA just to qualify. I guess you're just gonna say he got all the easy Koreans, I guess that's true, it was just lucky (pun intended) for him the Korean he beat 4-0 took out all the hard ones on the other side of the bracket. Also you realise that without the lame extended series rule, Idra would have lost to Boxer in that very same tournament and ended up squeaking by, by one game. Regardless they're both great players, but it's just sad seeing all the people trying to discredit Stephano all the time.
There really isn't anything to disagree about. Congrats to stephano on winning in an online qualifier against a cross server Korean in the middle of the night. That is not legit at all, imo. Freshen my mind, who did he play against at the actual LAN? I know that he beat Lucky in a ZvZ 4-0 in the finals. Lucky has a somewhat shitty ZvZ if I remember correctly.
and about the Boxer thing. Boxer cheesed the fuck out of Idra, while Stephano lost in macro games.
God, we should stop downplaying thei achievments They are both great players, but we have not seen eneough recent.(Idra's recent games were plagued by 2 months of travel, with only 1 week over that period of time in the house for practice)
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On December 13 2011 07:16 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 07:05 Zath.erin wrote:On December 13 2011 06:32 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 06:24 Zath.erin wrote:On December 13 2011 06:15 hunts wrote:On December 13 2011 06:13 The KY wrote:On December 13 2011 05:48 FlyingDike wrote:
I need to make a "Why I Think Stephano is Trash" thread. He sucked at blizzard cup, and this thread should be closed. It's no longer debatable whether stephano is good -- he's not. Now let's move on. Loses a game each to MVP and MC; terrible beyond debate. Flawless logic. Idra has taken games off both and a series off MC while stephano hasn't, and people still try to call stephano better than idra. Stephano has won over double what Idra did since release in a 4 month period when he started playing seriously, not only did he win twice Idra's total earnings but he did so beating tougher opponents. I'm not one to base results or a players skill purely off who they've beaten but if you want to go by that Stephano is likely ahead of any foreigner. I'm not even a big Stephano fan but go watch his stream and then watch any other foreigners in comparison and the difference will be pretty glaring. Sure he may be a little overhyped, but even last night he beat DRG and HerO, and if he hadn't for whatever reason done a dumb all in vs MC i'm possitive he would have beaten him. Then it would have been Stephano making it through instead of MC, but regardless, haters gonna hate and fanboys gonna fan. Both Idra and Stephano aren't consistent eneough. Idra loses early too much. Stephano has these ridicolous losses as well. Stephano wins IPL3(Though I think he lucked out, dodging all the big guns) where Idra fails hard against TheStC. Then, Idra wins macro games against fucking Bomber, while Stephano loses to Boxer in macro games. Now, Idra is behind on metagame and practice, so isn't showin results. Give it a couple more months, and it will all be clearer. I for one, doubt that Stephano can continue having success. (Doubt is not the same as hope, guys. Just pointing that out) By the way, Stephano hasn't beaten tougher opponents than Idra I think. Bar now, against DRG and Hero. Stephanos' earnings are from 2 tournaments with insane prize pools, and as I said, he lucked out at IPL3. I guess we'll have to disagree on this point, Idra's only major tournament win that had Koreans in it was IEM china, and it was a somewhat weak line up where he didn't have a single Korean in his group stage. He beat Revival, Puma and Elfi to win it which is impressive as we know Puma is a beast. If you compare that to IPL 3 though, where stephano beat 4 Koreans in a row to win it, after beating Revival, Puzzle AND MMA just to qualify. I guess you're just gonna say he got all the easy Koreans, I guess that's true, it was just lucky (pun intended) for him the Korean he beat 4-0 took out all the hard ones on the other side of the bracket. Also you realise that without the lame extended series rule, Idra would have lost to Boxer in that very same tournament and ended up squeaking by, by one game. Regardless they're both great players, but it's just sad seeing all the people trying to discredit Stephano all the time. ....and about the Boxer thing. Boxer cheesed the fuck out of Idra, while Stephano lost in macro games.....
Not actually true, neither game Stephano lost could legitimately be called a 'macro' game, they were just as cheesy as the games against IdrA. Did you actually watch them?
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On December 13 2011 07:21 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 07:16 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 07:05 Zath.erin wrote:On December 13 2011 06:32 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 06:24 Zath.erin wrote:On December 13 2011 06:15 hunts wrote:On December 13 2011 06:13 The KY wrote:On December 13 2011 05:48 FlyingDike wrote:
I need to make a "Why I Think Stephano is Trash" thread. He sucked at blizzard cup, and this thread should be closed. It's no longer debatable whether stephano is good -- he's not. Now let's move on. Loses a game each to MVP and MC; terrible beyond debate. Flawless logic. Idra has taken games off both and a series off MC while stephano hasn't, and people still try to call stephano better than idra. Stephano has won over double what Idra did since release in a 4 month period when he started playing seriously, not only did he win twice Idra's total earnings but he did so beating tougher opponents. I'm not one to base results or a players skill purely off who they've beaten but if you want to go by that Stephano is likely ahead of any foreigner. I'm not even a big Stephano fan but go watch his stream and then watch any other foreigners in comparison and the difference will be pretty glaring. Sure he may be a little overhyped, but even last night he beat DRG and HerO, and if he hadn't for whatever reason done a dumb all in vs MC i'm possitive he would have beaten him. Then it would have been Stephano making it through instead of MC, but regardless, haters gonna hate and fanboys gonna fan. Both Idra and Stephano aren't consistent eneough. Idra loses early too much. Stephano has these ridicolous losses as well. Stephano wins IPL3(Though I think he lucked out, dodging all the big guns) where Idra fails hard against TheStC. Then, Idra wins macro games against fucking Bomber, while Stephano loses to Boxer in macro games. Now, Idra is behind on metagame and practice, so isn't showin results. Give it a couple more months, and it will all be clearer. I for one, doubt that Stephano can continue having success. (Doubt is not the same as hope, guys. Just pointing that out) By the way, Stephano hasn't beaten tougher opponents than Idra I think. Bar now, against DRG and Hero. Stephanos' earnings are from 2 tournaments with insane prize pools, and as I said, he lucked out at IPL3. I guess we'll have to disagree on this point, Idra's only major tournament win that had Koreans in it was IEM china, and it was a somewhat weak line up where he didn't have a single Korean in his group stage. He beat Revival, Puma and Elfi to win it which is impressive as we know Puma is a beast. If you compare that to IPL 3 though, where stephano beat 4 Koreans in a row to win it, after beating Revival, Puzzle AND MMA just to qualify. I guess you're just gonna say he got all the easy Koreans, I guess that's true, it was just lucky (pun intended) for him the Korean he beat 4-0 took out all the hard ones on the other side of the bracket. Also you realise that without the lame extended series rule, Idra would have lost to Boxer in that very same tournament and ended up squeaking by, by one game. Regardless they're both great players, but it's just sad seeing all the people trying to discredit Stephano all the time. ....and about the Boxer thing. Boxer cheesed the fuck out of Idra, while Stephano lost in macro games..... Not actually true, neither game Stephano lost could legitimately be called a 'macro' game, they were just as cheesy as the games against IdrA. Did you actually watch them?
I did not, but then I suppose most people, including Idra are just lying about the games then. Never have I heard those games referred to as anything but macro games
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On December 13 2011 07:23 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 07:21 Crushinator wrote:On December 13 2011 07:16 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 07:05 Zath.erin wrote:On December 13 2011 06:32 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 06:24 Zath.erin wrote:On December 13 2011 06:15 hunts wrote:On December 13 2011 06:13 The KY wrote:On December 13 2011 05:48 FlyingDike wrote:
I need to make a "Why I Think Stephano is Trash" thread. He sucked at blizzard cup, and this thread should be closed. It's no longer debatable whether stephano is good -- he's not. Now let's move on. Loses a game each to MVP and MC; terrible beyond debate. Flawless logic. Idra has taken games off both and a series off MC while stephano hasn't, and people still try to call stephano better than idra. Stephano has won over double what Idra did since release in a 4 month period when he started playing seriously, not only did he win twice Idra's total earnings but he did so beating tougher opponents. I'm not one to base results or a players skill purely off who they've beaten but if you want to go by that Stephano is likely ahead of any foreigner. I'm not even a big Stephano fan but go watch his stream and then watch any other foreigners in comparison and the difference will be pretty glaring. Sure he may be a little overhyped, but even last night he beat DRG and HerO, and if he hadn't for whatever reason done a dumb all in vs MC i'm possitive he would have beaten him. Then it would have been Stephano making it through instead of MC, but regardless, haters gonna hate and fanboys gonna fan. Both Idra and Stephano aren't consistent eneough. Idra loses early too much. Stephano has these ridicolous losses as well. Stephano wins IPL3(Though I think he lucked out, dodging all the big guns) where Idra fails hard against TheStC. Then, Idra wins macro games against fucking Bomber, while Stephano loses to Boxer in macro games. Now, Idra is behind on metagame and practice, so isn't showin results. Give it a couple more months, and it will all be clearer. I for one, doubt that Stephano can continue having success. (Doubt is not the same as hope, guys. Just pointing that out) By the way, Stephano hasn't beaten tougher opponents than Idra I think. Bar now, against DRG and Hero. Stephanos' earnings are from 2 tournaments with insane prize pools, and as I said, he lucked out at IPL3. I guess we'll have to disagree on this point, Idra's only major tournament win that had Koreans in it was IEM china, and it was a somewhat weak line up where he didn't have a single Korean in his group stage. He beat Revival, Puma and Elfi to win it which is impressive as we know Puma is a beast. If you compare that to IPL 3 though, where stephano beat 4 Koreans in a row to win it, after beating Revival, Puzzle AND MMA just to qualify. I guess you're just gonna say he got all the easy Koreans, I guess that's true, it was just lucky (pun intended) for him the Korean he beat 4-0 took out all the hard ones on the other side of the bracket. Also you realise that without the lame extended series rule, Idra would have lost to Boxer in that very same tournament and ended up squeaking by, by one game. Regardless they're both great players, but it's just sad seeing all the people trying to discredit Stephano all the time. ....and about the Boxer thing. Boxer cheesed the fuck out of Idra, while Stephano lost in macro games..... Not actually true, neither game Stephano lost could legitimately be called a 'macro' game, they were just as cheesy as the games against IdrA. Did you actually watch them? I did not, but then I suppose most people, including Idra are just lying about the games then. Never have I heard those games referred to as anything but macro games
They are parroting IdrA, just like you. Go watch them, there are VODs somewhere, they aren't macro games.
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On December 13 2011 07:16 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 07:05 Zath.erin wrote:On December 13 2011 06:32 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 06:24 Zath.erin wrote:On December 13 2011 06:15 hunts wrote:On December 13 2011 06:13 The KY wrote:On December 13 2011 05:48 FlyingDike wrote:
I need to make a "Why I Think Stephano is Trash" thread. He sucked at blizzard cup, and this thread should be closed. It's no longer debatable whether stephano is good -- he's not. Now let's move on. Loses a game each to MVP and MC; terrible beyond debate. Flawless logic. Idra has taken games off both and a series off MC while stephano hasn't, and people still try to call stephano better than idra. Stephano has won over double what Idra did since release in a 4 month period when he started playing seriously, not only did he win twice Idra's total earnings but he did so beating tougher opponents. I'm not one to base results or a players skill purely off who they've beaten but if you want to go by that Stephano is likely ahead of any foreigner. I'm not even a big Stephano fan but go watch his stream and then watch any other foreigners in comparison and the difference will be pretty glaring. Sure he may be a little overhyped, but even last night he beat DRG and HerO, and if he hadn't for whatever reason done a dumb all in vs MC i'm possitive he would have beaten him. Then it would have been Stephano making it through instead of MC, but regardless, haters gonna hate and fanboys gonna fan. Both Idra and Stephano aren't consistent eneough. Idra loses early too much. Stephano has these ridicolous losses as well. Stephano wins IPL3(Though I think he lucked out, dodging all the big guns) where Idra fails hard against TheStC. Then, Idra wins macro games against fucking Bomber, while Stephano loses to Boxer in macro games. Now, Idra is behind on metagame and practice, so isn't showin results. Give it a couple more months, and it will all be clearer. I for one, doubt that Stephano can continue having success. (Doubt is not the same as hope, guys. Just pointing that out) By the way, Stephano hasn't beaten tougher opponents than Idra I think. Bar now, against DRG and Hero. Stephanos' earnings are from 2 tournaments with insane prize pools, and as I said, he lucked out at IPL3. I guess we'll have to disagree on this point, Idra's only major tournament win that had Koreans in it was IEM china, and it was a somewhat weak line up where he didn't have a single Korean in his group stage. He beat Revival, Puma and Elfi to win it which is impressive as we know Puma is a beast. If you compare that to IPL 3 though, where stephano beat 4 Koreans in a row to win it, after beating Revival, Puzzle AND MMA just to qualify. I guess you're just gonna say he got all the easy Koreans, I guess that's true, it was just lucky (pun intended) for him the Korean he beat 4-0 took out all the hard ones on the other side of the bracket. Also you realise that without the lame extended series rule, Idra would have lost to Boxer in that very same tournament and ended up squeaking by, by one game. Regardless they're both great players, but it's just sad seeing all the people trying to discredit Stephano all the time. There really isn't anything to disagree about. Congrats to stephano on winning in an online qualifier against a cross server Korean in the middle of the night. That is not legit at all, imo. Freshen my mind, who did he play against at the actual LAN? I know that he beat Lucky in a ZvZ 4-0 in the finals. Lucky has a somewhat shitty ZvZ if I remember correctly. and about the Boxer thing. Boxer cheesed the fuck out of Idra, while Stephano lost in macro games. God, we should stop downplaying thei achievments They are both great players, but we have not seen eneough recent.(Idra's recent games were plagued by 2 months of travel, with only 1 week over that period of time in the house for practice)
lol your post is so contradicting it's ridiculous.
First off, you can't "luck" your way to a final. Second off, you bring up "his win against MMA not being legit" a sentence later you question "who did he play against at an actual LAN" and then you mention he beat lucky 4-0 in the "FINALS".
Keyword: FINALS. Lucky was in the FINALS for a reason. Also, you mentioned that lucky has a "shitty ZvZ". look at Luckys ZvZ on the international scene and show me where (besides his losses to stephano) where lucky lost a set. In the Korean scene it's 3-5.
This reason exactly:
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=sc2-international&type=players&id=961&part=games&league=standard
So, you saying Stephano's wins during the whole IPL is not legit is just plain ignorant and erroneous.
People like you should seriously stop posting. It's irritating reading the stuff idiots like you write.
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On December 13 2011 07:05 Zath.erin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 06:32 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 06:24 Zath.erin wrote:On December 13 2011 06:15 hunts wrote:On December 13 2011 06:13 The KY wrote:On December 13 2011 05:48 FlyingDike wrote:
I need to make a "Why I Think Stephano is Trash" thread. He sucked at blizzard cup, and this thread should be closed. It's no longer debatable whether stephano is good -- he's not. Now let's move on. Loses a game each to MVP and MC; terrible beyond debate. Flawless logic. Idra has taken games off both and a series off MC while stephano hasn't, and people still try to call stephano better than idra. Stephano has won over double what Idra did since release in a 4 month period when he started playing seriously, not only did he win twice Idra's total earnings but he did so beating tougher opponents. I'm not one to base results or a players skill purely off who they've beaten but if you want to go by that Stephano is likely ahead of any foreigner. I'm not even a big Stephano fan but go watch his stream and then watch any other foreigners in comparison and the difference will be pretty glaring. Sure he may be a little overhyped, but even last night he beat DRG and HerO, and if he hadn't for whatever reason done a dumb all in vs MC i'm possitive he would have beaten him. Then it would have been Stephano making it through instead of MC, but regardless, haters gonna hate and fanboys gonna fan. Both Idra and Stephano aren't consistent eneough. Idra loses early too much. Stephano has these ridicolous losses as well. Stephano wins IPL3(Though I think he lucked out, dodging all the big guns) where Idra fails hard against TheStC. Then, Idra wins macro games against fucking Bomber, while Stephano loses to Boxer in macro games. Now, Idra is behind on metagame and practice, so isn't showin results. Give it a couple more months, and it will all be clearer. I for one, doubt that Stephano can continue having success. (Doubt is not the same as hope, guys. Just pointing that out) By the way, Stephano hasn't beaten tougher opponents than Idra I think. Bar now, against DRG and Hero. Stephanos' earnings are from 2 tournaments with insane prize pools, and as I said, he lucked out at IPL3. I guess we'll have to disagree on this point, Idra's only major tournament win that had Koreans in it was IEM china, and it was a somewhat weak line up where he didn't have a single Korean in his group stage. He beat Revival, Puma and Elfi to win it which is impressive as we know Puma is a beast. If you compare that to IPL 3 though, where stephano beat 4 Koreans in a row to win it, after beating Revival, Puzzle AND MMA just to qualify. I guess you're just gonna say he got all the easy Koreans, I guess that's true, it was just lucky (pun intended) for him the Korean he beat 4-0 took out all the hard ones on the other side of the bracket. Also you realise that without the lame extended series rule, Idra would have lost to Boxer in that very same tournament and ended up squeaking by, by one game. Regardless they're both great players, but it's just sad seeing all the people trying to discredit Stephano all the time.
Idra's run through that one MLG was ridiculous. He beat like 4 top koreans. He just had to go too far to get to the finals and lost to the eventual winner(I think it was the winner)
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On December 13 2011 07:25 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 07:23 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 07:21 Crushinator wrote:On December 13 2011 07:16 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 07:05 Zath.erin wrote:On December 13 2011 06:32 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 06:24 Zath.erin wrote:On December 13 2011 06:15 hunts wrote:On December 13 2011 06:13 The KY wrote:On December 13 2011 05:48 FlyingDike wrote:
I need to make a "Why I Think Stephano is Trash" thread. He sucked at blizzard cup, and this thread should be closed. It's no longer debatable whether stephano is good -- he's not. Now let's move on. Loses a game each to MVP and MC; terrible beyond debate. Flawless logic. Idra has taken games off both and a series off MC while stephano hasn't, and people still try to call stephano better than idra. Stephano has won over double what Idra did since release in a 4 month period when he started playing seriously, not only did he win twice Idra's total earnings but he did so beating tougher opponents. I'm not one to base results or a players skill purely off who they've beaten but if you want to go by that Stephano is likely ahead of any foreigner. I'm not even a big Stephano fan but go watch his stream and then watch any other foreigners in comparison and the difference will be pretty glaring. Sure he may be a little overhyped, but even last night he beat DRG and HerO, and if he hadn't for whatever reason done a dumb all in vs MC i'm possitive he would have beaten him. Then it would have been Stephano making it through instead of MC, but regardless, haters gonna hate and fanboys gonna fan. Both Idra and Stephano aren't consistent eneough. Idra loses early too much. Stephano has these ridicolous losses as well. Stephano wins IPL3(Though I think he lucked out, dodging all the big guns) where Idra fails hard against TheStC. Then, Idra wins macro games against fucking Bomber, while Stephano loses to Boxer in macro games. Now, Idra is behind on metagame and practice, so isn't showin results. Give it a couple more months, and it will all be clearer. I for one, doubt that Stephano can continue having success. (Doubt is not the same as hope, guys. Just pointing that out) By the way, Stephano hasn't beaten tougher opponents than Idra I think. Bar now, against DRG and Hero. Stephanos' earnings are from 2 tournaments with insane prize pools, and as I said, he lucked out at IPL3. I guess we'll have to disagree on this point, Idra's only major tournament win that had Koreans in it was IEM china, and it was a somewhat weak line up where he didn't have a single Korean in his group stage. He beat Revival, Puma and Elfi to win it which is impressive as we know Puma is a beast. If you compare that to IPL 3 though, where stephano beat 4 Koreans in a row to win it, after beating Revival, Puzzle AND MMA just to qualify. I guess you're just gonna say he got all the easy Koreans, I guess that's true, it was just lucky (pun intended) for him the Korean he beat 4-0 took out all the hard ones on the other side of the bracket. Also you realise that without the lame extended series rule, Idra would have lost to Boxer in that very same tournament and ended up squeaking by, by one game. Regardless they're both great players, but it's just sad seeing all the people trying to discredit Stephano all the time. ....and about the Boxer thing. Boxer cheesed the fuck out of Idra, while Stephano lost in macro games..... Not actually true, neither game Stephano lost could legitimately be called a 'macro' game, they were just as cheesy as the games against IdrA. Did you actually watch them? I did not, but then I suppose most people, including Idra are just lying about the games then. Never have I heard those games referred to as anything but macro games They are parroting IdrA, just like you. Go watch them, there are VODs somewhere, they aren't macro games.
On Metapolis it was a macro game. stephano just threw away his army and Boxer managed to kill the greater spire at a moment
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On December 13 2011 02:17 Elean wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 01:39 rasers wrote:On December 13 2011 00:44 Ylrahc wrote:On December 13 2011 00:04 eYeball wrote:On December 13 2011 00:02 bonedriven wrote:DRG commented on Stephano after Blizzard Cup. He said Stephano's play is solid, but invariant, so it is easy to study his style and find a way to counter. The reason he lost to stephano was due to his own mistake, he explained though. Source(in chinese): http://s.163.com/11/1212/21/7L3SE77N00314D0E.html MVP also commented that he could easily be Code S. I would not say best foreigner but somewhere in top 5, and I am no Stephano fan. Someone could translate the DRG interview please ? And funny to hear MVP opinion as well... I lost because I made a mistake....wow, well that is the core of any game, you win because you do less mistakes than your opponent And if he thinks Stephano play is invariant, he should watch again the IPL3 final against Lucky, where he did maybe 3 different openings in 4 games  DRG is not entirely wrong in the sense Stephano often privileges a style over another in one matchup, but he is able to vary and adapt his builds / timings and to play them perfectly, otherwise he wouldn't keeping winning doing the same builds. And he is able to play different builds, (he was actually well-known in Europe 6 months ago to roll over terrans using a lings / blings / muta style with clever baneling burrows for example xD) but he doesn't do it very often, maybe to keep them as an element of surprise, or maybe because he doesn't feel comfortable playing them, especially in a bo1 (thanks again, GSL !) On December 12 2011 22:30 Subztance wrote:
Edit: P.S. Happy Birthday lol Thanks Different openings doesnt change your Playstyle and how u think while playing. we saw with boxer and SC (and now MVP) what happens if they figure out his style. "Stephano's style" is constantly evolving, he keeps experimentating again and again. It's nothing like Idra's style who got a pretty solid zvt that is extremely refined but is exactly the same as 6months ago. In like a 3 months spans in zvt, I've seen him swtich from ling+infestors to pure lings (after infestor nerf) to roach lings, to roach lings infestors, to lings infestors fast ultra. HIs other matchup have also been involving. It's true that he doesn't make mutalisk or bannelings very often (he can play it really well too, but probably not as well as someone who goes muta every game). But It really makes sense for Stephano not to make bannelings/mutalisks, those units don't take advantage of his greatest strenghts : - mutlitasking - army splitting - map awareness. Mutalisk and bannelings are units that you don't split. If you fight with half your army, your bannelings will most likely not connect, and how often have you seen someone split muta ? Stephano's style is unique, nobody plays like him. But it's not because it isn't solid, it's just because he is the only one who can play like that. He just can control more stuff than everyone else. Stephano has been taking advange of his originality. But, I doubt he will ever be "figured out" like some people seems to be thinking. Even if people find specific response against him, it doesn't mean he won't be able to adapt. In the end, as long as a player has the mechanics and the game sense, he should remain extremely good. The thing Stephano is probably misssing is top level practice partners. Team millinium really doesn't have anyone good enough.
Stephano could be on a team with Leenock/Nestea/Coca etc and it wouldn't matter. He has stated he likes to train on ladder and doesnt want to practice with people he will play. That's his choice and its sad because he will never reach his full potential training on a ladder.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37058 Posts
After watching Stephano's performance in Blizzard Cup, I am fully convinced that he is Code S material. He went 2-2 against top Code S players. Showing that he indeed does have what it takes to be at the top.
But what I am wondering is, how far can he make it? He needs to play players that have been consistent in Code S like MVP, NesTea, MMA, etc. etc. to truly evaluate his skills. AND NOT A FREAKING BO1 EITHER!!
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On December 13 2011 07:31 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 02:17 Elean wrote:On December 13 2011 01:39 rasers wrote:On December 13 2011 00:44 Ylrahc wrote:On December 13 2011 00:04 eYeball wrote:On December 13 2011 00:02 bonedriven wrote:DRG commented on Stephano after Blizzard Cup. He said Stephano's play is solid, but invariant, so it is easy to study his style and find a way to counter. The reason he lost to stephano was due to his own mistake, he explained though. Source(in chinese): http://s.163.com/11/1212/21/7L3SE77N00314D0E.html MVP also commented that he could easily be Code S. I would not say best foreigner but somewhere in top 5, and I am no Stephano fan. Someone could translate the DRG interview please ? And funny to hear MVP opinion as well... I lost because I made a mistake....wow, well that is the core of any game, you win because you do less mistakes than your opponent And if he thinks Stephano play is invariant, he should watch again the IPL3 final against Lucky, where he did maybe 3 different openings in 4 games DRG is not entirely wrong in the sense Stephano often privileges a style over another in one matchup, but he is able to vary and adapt his builds / timings and to play them perfectly, otherwise he wouldn't keeping winning doing the same builds. And he is able to play different builds, (he was actually well-known in Europe 6 months ago to roll over terrans using a lings / blings / muta style with clever baneling burrows for example xD) but he doesn't do it very often, maybe to keep them as an element of surprise, or maybe because he doesn't feel comfortable playing them, especially in a bo1 (thanks again, GSL !) On December 12 2011 22:30 Subztance wrote:
Edit: P.S. Happy Birthday lol Thanks Different openings doesnt change your Playstyle and how u think while playing. we saw with boxer and SC (and now MVP) what happens if they figure out his style. "Stephano's style" is constantly evolving, he keeps experimentating again and again. It's nothing like Idra's style who got a pretty solid zvt that is extremely refined but is exactly the same as 6months ago. In like a 3 months spans in zvt, I've seen him swtich from ling+infestors to pure lings (after infestor nerf) to roach lings, to roach lings infestors, to lings infestors fast ultra. HIs other matchup have also been involving. It's true that he doesn't make mutalisk or bannelings very often (he can play it really well too, but probably not as well as someone who goes muta every game). But It really makes sense for Stephano not to make bannelings/mutalisks, those units don't take advantage of his greatest strenghts : - mutlitasking - army splitting - map awareness. Mutalisk and bannelings are units that you don't split. If you fight with half your army, your bannelings will most likely not connect, and how often have you seen someone split muta ? Stephano's style is unique, nobody plays like him. But it's not because it isn't solid, it's just because he is the only one who can play like that. He just can control more stuff than everyone else. Stephano has been taking advange of his originality. But, I doubt he will ever be "figured out" like some people seems to be thinking. Even if people find specific response against him, it doesn't mean he won't be able to adapt. In the end, as long as a player has the mechanics and the game sense, he should remain extremely good. The thing Stephano is probably misssing is top level practice partners. Team millinium really doesn't have anyone good enough. Stephano could be on a team with Leenock/Nestea/Coca etc and it wouldn't matter. He has stated he likes to train on ladder and doesnt want to practice with people he will play. That's his choice and its sad because he will never reach his full potential training on a ladder.
He certainly will now (it would be sad if not) since the blizzard cup is over for him and he wont attend any korean tournament in the future like he wished
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On December 13 2011 07:29 JohnMatrix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 07:25 Crushinator wrote:On December 13 2011 07:23 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 07:21 Crushinator wrote:On December 13 2011 07:16 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 07:05 Zath.erin wrote:On December 13 2011 06:32 Aocowns wrote:On December 13 2011 06:24 Zath.erin wrote:On December 13 2011 06:15 hunts wrote:On December 13 2011 06:13 The KY wrote:
[quote]
Loses a game each to MVP and MC; terrible beyond debate.
Flawless logic. Idra has taken games off both and a series off MC while stephano hasn't, and people still try to call stephano better than idra. Stephano has won over double what Idra did since release in a 4 month period when he started playing seriously, not only did he win twice Idra's total earnings but he did so beating tougher opponents. I'm not one to base results or a players skill purely off who they've beaten but if you want to go by that Stephano is likely ahead of any foreigner. I'm not even a big Stephano fan but go watch his stream and then watch any other foreigners in comparison and the difference will be pretty glaring. Sure he may be a little overhyped, but even last night he beat DRG and HerO, and if he hadn't for whatever reason done a dumb all in vs MC i'm possitive he would have beaten him. Then it would have been Stephano making it through instead of MC, but regardless, haters gonna hate and fanboys gonna fan. Both Idra and Stephano aren't consistent eneough. Idra loses early too much. Stephano has these ridicolous losses as well. Stephano wins IPL3(Though I think he lucked out, dodging all the big guns) where Idra fails hard against TheStC. Then, Idra wins macro games against fucking Bomber, while Stephano loses to Boxer in macro games. Now, Idra is behind on metagame and practice, so isn't showin results. Give it a couple more months, and it will all be clearer. I for one, doubt that Stephano can continue having success. (Doubt is not the same as hope, guys. Just pointing that out) By the way, Stephano hasn't beaten tougher opponents than Idra I think. Bar now, against DRG and Hero. Stephanos' earnings are from 2 tournaments with insane prize pools, and as I said, he lucked out at IPL3. I guess we'll have to disagree on this point, Idra's only major tournament win that had Koreans in it was IEM china, and it was a somewhat weak line up where he didn't have a single Korean in his group stage. He beat Revival, Puma and Elfi to win it which is impressive as we know Puma is a beast. If you compare that to IPL 3 though, where stephano beat 4 Koreans in a row to win it, after beating Revival, Puzzle AND MMA just to qualify. I guess you're just gonna say he got all the easy Koreans, I guess that's true, it was just lucky (pun intended) for him the Korean he beat 4-0 took out all the hard ones on the other side of the bracket. Also you realise that without the lame extended series rule, Idra would have lost to Boxer in that very same tournament and ended up squeaking by, by one game. Regardless they're both great players, but it's just sad seeing all the people trying to discredit Stephano all the time. ....and about the Boxer thing. Boxer cheesed the fuck out of Idra, while Stephano lost in macro games..... Not actually true, neither game Stephano lost could legitimately be called a 'macro' game, they were just as cheesy as the games against IdrA. Did you actually watch them? I did not, but then I suppose most people, including Idra are just lying about the games then. Never have I heard those games referred to as anything but macro games They are parroting IdrA, just like you. Go watch them, there are VODs somewhere, they aren't macro games. On Metapolis it was a macro game. stephano just threw away his army and Boxer managed to kill the greater spire at a moment
Oh thats right he made roaches in ZvT, he actually won the 2 rax game. I stand corrected. My memory is not as good as I thought I geuss.
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On December 13 2011 07:33 Seeker wrote:
After watching Stephano's performance in Blizzard Cup, I am fully convinced that he is Code S material. He went 2-2 against top Code S players. Showing that he indeed does have what it takes to be at the top.
But what I am wondering is, how far can he make it? He needs to play players that have been consistent in Code S like MVP, NesTea, MMA, etc. etc. to truly evaluate his skills. AND NOT A FREAKING BO1 EITHER!!
Just a small correction, he went 1-2 vs Code S players. Hero is barely mid level Code A if anything
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On December 13 2011 06:51 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 06:46 The KY wrote:On December 13 2011 06:15 hunts wrote:On December 13 2011 06:13 The KY wrote:On December 13 2011 05:48 FlyingDike wrote:
I need to make a "Why I Think Stephano is Trash" thread. He sucked at blizzard cup, and this thread should be closed. It's no longer debatable whether stephano is good -- he's not. Now let's move on. Loses a game each to MVP and MC; terrible beyond debate. Flawless logic. Idra has taken games off both and a series off MC while stephano hasn't, and people still try to call stephano better than idra. What the fuck? I was just going to leave it at that but ok I'll elaborate; Let's assume for a minute that Stephano has played more than 3 (televised) games against MC, which he hasn't, and he's lost them all. That still wouldn't make Idra better than Stephano. I'm not personally saying that Stephano is better than Idra. I haven't seen enough of him. But saying that it's impossible because Idra has taken a couple of games off of MC in the 15-20 that they've played is...well I have no idea where the fuck you are coming from with that. They've played much less than 15, but meh, idra haters will always hate him and exadurate everything I suppose.
As someone pointed out above your post, Idra's less than impressive record against MC is 3-12. That's not much less than 15, in fact with a quick burst of mathematics we can deduce that it is exactly 15.
But of course, I'm such an Idra hater (an accusation based purely on the fact that I pointed out your weird, twisted logic, the fact is that I'm more of a fan of Idra than Stephano) that I probably went and edited liquipedia myself to make it seem like Idra actually had a horrible record vs MC, all to stop you proving that Idra is better than Stephano, which he obviously is. I mean, he's taken 3 games out of 15 off of a guy that Stephano lost one game to today. The stats are clear on this; Idra is better.
This also just in; Haypro took a series off of Nestea, making Haypro better than every zerg on the planet, except Bboongbboong, who is the best player in the world.
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On December 13 2011 07:37 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 07:33 Seeker wrote:
After watching Stephano's performance in Blizzard Cup, I am fully convinced that he is Code S material. He went 2-2 against top Code S players. Showing that he indeed does have what it takes to be at the top.
But what I am wondering is, how far can he make it? He needs to play players that have been consistent in Code S like MVP, NesTea, MMA, etc. etc. to truly evaluate his skills. AND NOT A FREAKING BO1 EITHER!! Just a small correction, he went 1-2 vs Code S players. Hero is barely mid level Code A if anything
hes a caliber code S, it would be silly to says hes not. you cant win vs sen 4-0 like this. asd, yu gi oh and violet are code s players for you ? (and its not the fact that stephano beat HerO or not)
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EPT
