EPTNaNiwa speaks out on CompLexity / Quantic move - Page 36
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latan
740 Posts
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
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pPingu
Switzerland2892 Posts
On December 12 2011 04:18 JustPassingBy wrote: I know this is kind of off topic, but... what's that with the new house of startale? would love to hear about that! Good question, you should ask banks here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=292573¤tpage=3 and he could do a house tour too. | ||
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Paladia
802 Posts
On December 12 2011 03:34 On_Slaught wrote: This is a pretty terrible post: - Do you know why Stephano left CoL? - Why did QxG pick up Destiny? Because he is going to win GSL? - What makes Drewbie/Minigun/Trimaster "etc" exposure-type players? Is everyone who isn't challenging for 1st place at every tourny suddenly an exposure-type? Is every team expected to have 3-5 of these players then? QxG only has 2, including nani... 1. Stephano, just like Naniwa, left CoL because he didn't want to be in the team. The team obviously has massive issues when they managed to sign two of the top performers in SC2 yet couldn't keep them in the team for longer than brief period of time. Naniwa, Huk and Stephano are likely the three foreign players with the best results, you don't let players that slip out of your hands, twice, if you have signed them unless you have serious problems within your team or management. They can obviously sign top result players but the top players do not want to stay in their team. Why do you think that is? 2. QxG probably picked up Destiny because he brings so much attention. They also picked up SaSe and Naniwa, so there is still a balance towards performance. I don't blame teams for picking up players like Destiny or Catz. If you only have players like that, that is also fine with me (which CoL has). However, if you then pick up a player who is only results-oriented, don't expect it to work out if you attempt to convert him to value exposure (such as streaming) over practice and results. It is simply poor management, in my opinion. 3. If I write out the proper word for it I would likely get a temp ban or warning so I'll just say that some people crave attention, interacting and having a good time over practice and results. Again, this isn't a bad thing, it is just a different mindset. A mindset which obviously do not go hand in hand with players such as Naniwa or Stephano. As a result of the mindset the later type of players often are the type to win tournaments but it doesn't mean that you have to be a contender to be a results oriented players. To name an opposing zerg player to Catz of similar skill, an example would be Naugrim. He doesn't at all care about attention or fan interaction, he only practices as much as possible and wants to become better. As I said, both takes on Starcraft are fine with me. | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
It's quite apparent that you can't be reasoned with and will not budge, so I'm not under any illusion that your reply to this will be any different so may as well not bother. | ||
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Klondikebar
United States2227 Posts
On December 12 2011 04:26 Paladia wrote: 1. Stephano, just like Naniwa, left CoL because he didn't want to be in the team. The team obviously has massive issues when they managed to sign two of the top performers in SC2 yet couldn't keep them in the team for longer than brief period of time. Naniwa, Huk and Stephano are likely the three foreign players with the best results, you don't let players that slip out of your hands, twice, if you have signed them unless you have serious problems within your team or management. They can obviously sign top result players but the top players do not want to stay in their team. Why do you think that is? 2. QxG probably picked up Destiny because he brings so much attention. They also picked up SaSe and Naniwa, so there is still a balance towards performance. I don't blame teams for picking up players like Destiny or Catz. If you only have players like that, that is also fine with me (which CoL has). However, if you then pick up a player who is only results-oriented, don't expect it to work out if you attempt to convert him to value exposure (such as streaming) over practice and results. It is simply poor management, in my opinion. 3. If I write out the proper word for it I would likely get a temp ban or warning so I'll just say that some people crave attention, interacting and having a good time over practice and results. Again, this isn't a bad thing, it is just a different mindset. A mindset which obviously do not go hand in hand with players such as Naniwa or Stephano. As a result of the mindset the later type of players often are the type to win tournaments but it doesn't mean that you have to be a contender to be a results oriented players. To name an opposing zerg player to Catz of similar skill, an example would be Naugrim. He doesn't at all care about attention or fan interaction, he only practices as much as possible and wants to become better. As I said, both takes on Starcraft are fine with me. Destiny is actually training very hard. He's gearing up to deliver results and not just viewers. QxG probably picked him up because they saw a lot of potential and the drive to perform and they knew they could give him the tools to get better. The tremendous exposure he provides was icing on a delicious destiny cake. | ||
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[17]Purple
United Kingdom3489 Posts
On December 12 2011 04:37 Klondikebar wrote: Destiny is actually training very hard. He's gearing up to deliver results and not just viewers. QxG probably picked him up because they saw a lot of potential and the drive to perform and they knew they could give him the tools to get better. The tremendous exposure he provides was icing on a delicious destiny cake. To add to that; I'm sure that being a better player definately attracts more viewers. | ||
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LuckoftheIrish
United States4791 Posts
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mcmartini
Australia1972 Posts
On December 12 2011 05:04 LuckoftheIrish wrote: Wait, we're all back to pretending that Stephano's thing with coL represents some sort of failure of Complexity's management? Did I dream the interview with Jason Bass where he talked about getting compensation payments after Stephano breached his contract? http://onemoregame.tv/index.php/archive/lo3/item/260-lo3-089.html Not dreaming. I can't remember what interview it was may have been ipl3 or something where stephano admits he used Col to make millennium offer him more money | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
On December 12 2011 04:26 Paladia wrote: 1. Stephano, just like Naniwa, left CoL because he didn't want to be in the team. The team obviously has massive issues when they managed to sign two of the top performers in SC2 yet couldn't keep them in the team for longer than brief period of time. Naniwa, Huk and Stephano are likely the three foreign players with the best results, you don't let players that slip out of your hands, twice, if you have signed them unless you have serious problems within your team or management. They can obviously sign top result players but the top players do not want to stay in their team. Why do you think that is? I don't think the Stephano, or the Naniwa situation are indicators of coL letting these players slip. The situation with each player seems to indicate nothing of the sort. They could have kept Naniwa so not keeping him was a decision they definitely didn't let him slip out of their hands. Naniwa has left many teams and I wouldn't accuse all of them of bad management. Stephano was signed to two teams. Unless you know more than I do (doubtful) I don't see the relevance of him in this topic regarding the coL management. | ||
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Paladia
802 Posts
On December 12 2011 04:31 syllogism wrote: You are just making stuff up, again. Why do you think naniwa "left" his previous teams? Is Dignitas one of those teams with massive issues? Do you think players can just leave while they are still under contract, as in the case of Complexity Naniwa? Dignitas obviously does not have an issue with players who want to just focus on results, such as Select or Sjow. CoL is the team with those issues, as evident by their line-up and the two top players they did aquire, Naniwa and Stephano, didn't stay for long. One can argue all day long but regardless of your point of view it is difficult to not see it as a massive failure by CoL to aquire both Naniwa and Stephano but being unable to keep them in the team. As for the contract question, I am not so sure you understand contracts judging from the way you asked the question. Can players leave if they are still under contract? Of course they can as it is civil law. Are there monetary consequences? That depends on the contract. Could they have tried to keep Naniwa or Stephano there against their will? Possibly, though it would have been a very bad idea. The issue isn't if they should force players to stay or not, the issue is that the top performing players, obviously, do not want to stay in Complexity to begin with. | ||
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HeavenResign
United States702 Posts
On December 12 2011 04:26 Paladia wrote: 1. Stephano, just like Naniwa, left CoL because he didn't want to be in the team. The team obviously has massive issues when they managed to sign two of the top performers in SC2 yet couldn't keep them in the team for longer than brief period of time. Naniwa, Huk and Stephano are likely the three foreign players with the best results, you don't let players that slip out of your hands, twice, if you have signed them unless you have serious problems within your team or management. They can obviously sign top result players but the top players do not want to stay in their team. Why do you think that is? 2. QxG probably picked up Destiny because he brings so much attention. They also picked up SaSe and Naniwa, so there is still a balance towards performance. I don't blame teams for picking up players like Destiny or Catz. If you only have players like that, that is also fine with me (which CoL has). However, if you then pick up a player who is only results-oriented, don't expect it to work out if you attempt to convert him to value exposure (such as streaming) over practice and results. It is simply poor management, in my opinion. 3. If I write out the proper word for it I would likely get a temp ban or warning so I'll just say that some people crave attention, interacting and having a good time over practice and results. Again, this isn't a bad thing, it is just a different mindset. A mindset which obviously do not go hand in hand with players such as Naniwa or Stephano. As a result of the mindset the later type of players often are the type to win tournaments but it doesn't mean that you have to be a contender to be a results oriented players. To name an opposing zerg player to Catz of similar skill, an example would be Naugrim. He doesn't at all care about attention or fan interaction, he only practices as much as possible and wants to become better. As I said, both takes on Starcraft are fine with me. When there's an Esports Fox News division, be sure to send them your resume. | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
On December 12 2011 05:10 Paladia wrote: Dignitas obviously does not have an issue with players who want to just focus on results, such as Select or Sjow. CoL is the team with those issues, as evident by their line-up and the two top players they did aquire, Naniwa and Stephano, didn't stay for long. One can argue all day long but regardless of your point of view it is difficult to not see it as a massive failure by CoL to aquire both Naniwa and Stephano but being unable to keep them in the team. As for the contract question, I am not so sure you understand contracts judging from the way you asked the question. Can players leave if they are still under contract? Of course they can as it is civil law. Are there monetary consequences? That depends on the contract. Could they have tried to keep Naniwa or Stephano there against their will? Possibly, though it would have been a very bad idea. The issue isn't if they should force players to stay or not, the issue is that the top performing players, obviously, do not want to stay in Complexity to begin with. I truly, truly cannot understand how you can speak of massive failure without knowing the ins and outs. There are so many details to situations like this that could either spin this into a situation of bad management, or a situation of good management. The idea that as long as a good player does not stay with a team this is a sign of bad management is incredibly flawed. | ||
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Paladia
802 Posts
On December 12 2011 05:09 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I don't think the Stephano, or the Naniwa situation are indicators of coL letting these players slip. The situation with each player seems to indicate nothing of the sort. They could have kept Naniwa so not keeping him was a decision they definitely didn't let him slip out of their hands. Stephano was signed to two teams. Unless you know more than I do (doubtful) I don't see the relevance of him in this topic. Taking one single factor into consideration isn't enough. There are several and Stephano is just one of them. Naniwa being asked to do something which he absolutely hates (streaming) instead of what he wants to do (practice). He has even said that he will never stream again. Naniwa leaving, Stephano leaving. Their current line-up is obviously 100% a result of management and their current line-up is filled with the exposure-type player. There is nothing wrong with that, it could be CoL's niche, getting these kinds of players and I am absolutely fine with that. The problem arises when you try to aquire players that are only focused on results and the game itself and then try to get them to put time into exposure instead of doing what they do best (play and focus on tournaments). | ||
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Jongl0
631 Posts
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Paladia
802 Posts
On December 12 2011 05:12 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I truly, truly cannot understand how you can speak of massive failure without knowing the ins and outs. There are so many details to situations like this that could either spin this into a situation of bad management, or a situation of good management. The idea that as long as a good player does not stay with a team this is a sign of bad management is incredibly flawed. If it happens once, for sure. However, Complexity has been unable to keep any of the results-oriented players. Lets say you for example, couldn't come to agreement with your currently signed top players Ret, Sheth and Hero and thus they all left on a bad footing with lots of drama, public bashing back and forth, legal threats on twitter and so on. Would you not see that as a failure on TL's part? | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On December 12 2011 05:09 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I don't think the Stephano, or the Naniwa situation are indicators of coL letting these players slip. The situation with each player seems to indicate nothing of the sort. They could have kept Naniwa so not keeping him was a decision they definitely didn't let him slip out of their hands. Naniwa has left many teams and I wouldn't accuse all of them of bad management. Stephano was signed to two teams. Unless you know more than I do (doubtful) I don't see the relevance of him in this topic regarding the coL management. In Nani's case, what would be the point of keeping a player if he wasn't happy on and with the team? Complexity may have initiated the transfer but they really had no other reasonable choice. In Stephano's case, the exact timeline (at least the way it was reported to the public) of events was that Stephano signed with Millenium after being convinced by Millenium people that the Complexity deal wasn't good for him. In both cases, but especially Nani's case, they also knew exactly who they were signing and what their priorities were as players, what their personalities are like, and so on. They went for the players that they had no personal relationship or connection with (neither the management nor the team), they really didn't look capable of providing them with any kind of team atmosphere and neither player is the smoothest person to work with on a strictly professional level. Basically the "bond" between Col and either Nani or Stephano couldn't possibly be very strong. Both moves looked like an attempt to buy a superteam overnight, which does look like bad management to me. Both moves actually happened within a week if I remember correctly. | ||
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aintz
Canada5624 Posts
On December 12 2011 05:26 Paladia wrote: If it happens once, for sure. However, Complexity has been unable to keep any of the results-oriented players. Lets say you for example, couldn't come to agreement with your currently signed top players Ret, Sheth and Hero and thus they all left on a bad footing with lots of drama, public bashing back and forth, legal threats on twitter and so on. Would you not see that as a failure on your part? how can you be so ignorant? the stephano situation and this one happened under very different circumstances. stop comparing apples to oranges and making unjust accusations. | ||
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Longshank
1648 Posts
On December 12 2011 05:26 Paladia wrote: If it happens once, for sure. However, Complexity has been unable to keep any of the results-oriented players. Lets say you for example, couldn't come to agreement with your currently signed top players Ret, Sheth and Hero and thus they all left on a bad footing with lots of drama, public bashing back and forth, legal threats on twitter and so on. Would you not see that as a failure on TL's part? Who are all these 'result-oriented' players they have lost? Destiny? And stop the bs about Stephano, they never really had him to begin with. | ||
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mango_destroyer
Canada3914 Posts
On December 12 2011 04:37 Klondikebar wrote: Destiny is actually training very hard. He's gearing up to deliver results and not just viewers. QxG probably picked him up because they saw a lot of potential and the drive to perform and they knew they could give him the tools to get better. The tremendous exposure he provides was icing on a delicious destiny cake. He is not training hard...atleast not until he gets to korea. Because every other time I turn on his stream he is playing LoL. As for the discussion itself, lots of people always look for people to blame, but things can be mutual. Whether it was or wasn`t isn`t something we will likely find out since we don`t know the entire situation and the teams and players aren`t obligated to let everyone know every single thing. | ||
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