EPTthanks!!
NaNiwa speaks out on CompLexity / Quantic move - Page 34
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SuB.ZerO
United States55 Posts
thanks!! | ||
NonY
8748 Posts
. ofc they don't care the same way if he wins a big event than if i have a bunch of viewers on my stream. They do care the same way, just not to the same extent. It's ridiculous to think that NaNi thought that he had exactly quantified the amount that Complexity values a tournament placement and the amount they value stream viewers and determined that a 2nd place finish in a tournament is exactly equal to 5000 stream viewers (and then equalized salaries based on one instance?). There are so many things wrong with that interpretation that it's absolutely absurd to entertain it for even a second. To the extent that that interpretation is absurd, the other interpretation is obvious: the type of value tournament placements and stream viewers have is similar. Both are a lot of exposure. Complexity values exposure. The difference between the two is that one requires a lot more skill at the game than the other. We all know that NaNi values skill and results over everything. So NaNi values the tournament placement and he doesn't value the stream viewers. This is all completely obvious to anyone with the slightest clue about NaNi's priorities and how teams like Complexity work. To think that catz's salary compared to naniwa's salary is relevant to nani's statement is the incorrect line of thinking. Everyone has realized how absurd it is and then turned that on NaNi, saying he's absurd and bullshitting us to say that. Stop for a second and check back to NaNi's words and realize that they are ambiguous and not exclusively indicating this absurd interpretation. Yes, they leave that interpretation open but they also leave open a completely reasonable and normal interpretation. Have some fucking respect and give him the benefit of the doubt. | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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Rabbet
Canada404 Posts
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Longshank
1648 Posts
On December 12 2011 01:23 syllogism wrote: So when does someone reach a point when they can be held accountable for their behaviour? Are we just supposed to be pretend there is no issue? Clearly all the teams who might be interested in hiring him have to know about it and then it's basically an open secret at best. This is of course assuming what has been said or implied is true. Accountable to whom? The people who need to know know and what occurred is in the end purely between Naniwa, coL and QxG. | ||
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Rabbet
Canada404 Posts
On December 12 2011 01:21 Liquid`Tyler wrote: To think that catz's salary compared to naniwa's salary is relevant to nani's statement is the incorrect line of thinking. Everyone has realized how absurd it is and then turned that on NaNi, saying he's absurd and bullshitting us to say that. Stop for a second and check back to NaNi's words and realize that they are ambiguous and not exclusively indicating this absurd interpretation. Yes, they leave that interpretation open but they also leave open a completely reasonable and normal interpretation. Have some fucking respect and give him the benefit of the doubt. Everything that comes out of Naniwa's mouth has to be "translated" to be properly understood. Calling Nestea an idiot..."well he didn't mean he was an idiot of course not, its the language barrier." The time of people obfuscating all of Naniwa's words should be at an end and while a truly amazing player it needs to be understood that Naniwa is a complete joke socially and should not be sheltered from scrutiny in this regard. | ||
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ohokurwrong
Brazil283 Posts
On December 12 2011 01:21 Liquid`Tyler wrote: They do care the same way, just not to the same extent. It's ridiculous to think that NaNi thought that he had exactly quantified the amount that Complexity values a tournament placement and the amount they value stream viewers and determined that a 2nd place finish in a tournament is exactly equal to 5000 stream viewers. There are so many things wrong with that interpretation that it's absolutely absurd to entertain it for even a second. To the extent that that interpretation is absurd, the other interpretation is obvious: the type of value tournament placements and stream viewers have is similar. Both are a lot of exposure. Complexity values exposure. The difference between the two is that one requires a lot more skill at the game than the other. We all know that NaNi values skill and results over everything. So NaNi values the tournament placement and he doesn't value the stream viewers. This is all completely obvious to anyone with the slightest clue about NaNi's priorities and how teams like Complexity work. To think that catz's salary compared to naniwa's salary is relevant to nani's statement is the incorrect line of thinking. Everyone has realized how absurd it is and then turned that on NaNi, saying he's absurd and bullshitting us to say that. Stop for a second and check back to NaNi's words and realize that they are ambiguous and not exclusively indicating this absurd interpretation. Yes, they leave that interpretation open but they also leave open a completely reasonable and normal interpretation. Have some fucking respect and give him the benefit of the doubt. as always a wall of text that only repeats itself over and over and over. skill should be the most important thing in sc2. if you are highly skilled and get terrible viewership its the teams job to fix that. naniwa could easily have been portrayed as an idra figure if coL could twist it to a positive. you think destiny is any good? he gets more viewers then you and while you both dont win tournys you are a better player. is that fair? no its not but i dont seem teamliquid trying to remedy this problem as coL also did not. naniwa has a WINNERS mentality can that be said for most pros? i bet currently you yourself and most of TL (TLO can be quoted saying this) just want to finish in a top spot. he doesnt care about 1st to the level naniwa cares. there is something to be said for someone who strives for the best and nothing short but you all see this as arrogance. this is perceived as this because most of the population doesnt know what its like to be good at the thing they look up to. this leads to jealousy and ignorance thats derived from this lack of understanding or relation. naniwa should be treated as a champion untill he no longer deserves it and if a team doesnt do that then good luck having e sports grow. you NEED larger then life figures for esports to become a household name. you NEED these demi god figures if you want kids to watch and play games instead of ball sports. im surprised you have such little vision but yet post such a wall of text. this isnt about naniwa this is about esports and what it means to be the best players of that game | ||
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CikaZombi
Serbia630 Posts
On December 12 2011 01:21 Liquid`Tyler wrote: They do care the same way, just not to the same extent. It's ridiculous to think that NaNi thought that he had exactly quantified the amount that Complexity values a tournament placement and the amount they value stream viewers and determined that a 2nd place finish in a tournament is exactly equal to 5000 stream viewers (and then equalized salaries based on one instance?). There are so many things wrong with that interpretation that it's absolutely absurd to entertain it for even a second. To the extent that that interpretation is absurd, the other interpretation is obvious: the type of value tournament placements and stream viewers have is similar. Both are a lot of exposure. Complexity values exposure. The difference between the two is that one requires a lot more skill at the game than the other. We all know that NaNi values skill and results over everything. So NaNi values the tournament placement and he doesn't value the stream viewers. This is all completely obvious to anyone with the slightest clue about NaNi's priorities and how teams like Complexity work. To think that catz's salary compared to naniwa's salary is relevant to nani's statement is the incorrect line of thinking. Everyone has realized how absurd it is and then turned that on NaNi, saying he's absurd and bullshitting us to say that. Stop for a second and check back to NaNi's words and realize that they are ambiguous and not exclusively indicating this absurd interpretation. Yes, they leave that interpretation open but they also leave open a completely reasonable and normal interpretation. Have some fucking respect and give him the benefit of the doubt. Brilliantly eloquent and strictly rational. I am an exclusive lurker on the forums but this just deserves a post - nay, a goddamn standing ovation! /slowclap | ||
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Angel_
United States1617 Posts
From my perspective Naniwa completely tried to shift the blame from himself and make the situation seem like anything other than what it was. Kyle whatever his name is from Complexity didn't need to say what he did in the way that he did. Catz didn't either. But to make the argument that they shouldn't have said anything at all is just ridiculous. That they should have stayed quiet and let the community share Naniwa's fantasy about what happened. Or that they should have said something but differently. That ESFI shouldn't have hopped on the sensationalist bandwagon so quickly. But I'm sure there's plenty of rabid Naniwa fans that feel that he just tried to tell the truth and that Complexity just needlessly badmouthed and trashed him over and over, or any and every other variation that they're POSITIVE is the truth about what happened. I expect that. In the end though, as a community, regardless of who you're a fan of, you should demand that issues stay in between those parties and NO ONE should spread shit, or you should grab everyone's view point involved. To sit and say, "I want this player's viewpoint because it's obviously the truth and no one else better say anything about it or contradict it in the slightest"...it's just ignorant. It's willful ignorance. I'm not saying he's a bad person. I'm not calling him a liar. I think every and anyone can stand to say, "Maybe there was a bit of miscommunication everywhere in sharing the story from everyone's viewpoint." I guess just what I'm trying to get at is...whether your a fan, an outsider, a lurker, someone's white knight, or any and everything else...Listen. Whether you think someone's rebuttal or information is wrong or too harsh or whatever. Listen to each other and actually think about viewpoints other than what you're immediately positive is correct, and understand why people are saying the things they are saying. Look at things from the other person's perspective than just who you're rooting for. This is 34 pages now of just stupid, from myself included. /off my soapbox now. | ||
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LuckoftheIrish
United States4791 Posts
You had the first paragraph so right, and the second so wrong. The majority of people in this thread are taking NaNiwa at his word; more than that, they're taking it as gospel even after people who know better have corrected them! He says there were money issues, he says coL valued Catz's stream and his own MG performance equally, CatZ says there are behavior issues but that NaNi still gets triple his salary. Somehow the result of this is posts like: respect the fact that he has a pair and doesn't give us some flimsy excuse or bs about why he switched. I like CatZ and I watch him all the time but I don't agree with stream viewer count being equivalent to a MLG placing of 2nd, especially at Nationals. It is quite apparent that Naniwa is telling the truth about CoL valuing exposure over results. With players such Catz, drewbie, minigun, trimaster etc. What's the interpretation we're missing here? How would you like us to explain away NaNiwa saying that money was part of the reason why he left (leaving aside that he had very little choice in the matter) AND complaining that his performances aren't valued enough? | ||
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farvacola
United States18818 Posts
On December 12 2011 02:00 LuckoftheIrish wrote: Argh, Tyler... You had the first paragraph so right, and the second so wrong. The majority of people in this thread are taking NaNiwa at his word; more than that, they're taking it as gospel even after people who know better have corrected them! He says there were money issues, he says coL valued Catz's stream and his own MG performance equally, CatZ says there are behavior issues but that NaNi still gets triple his salary. Somehow the result of this is posts like: What's the interpretation we're missing here? How would you like us to explain away NaNiwa saying that money was part of the reason why he left (leaving aside that he had very little choice in the matter) AND complaining that his performances aren't valued enough? Umm, how about he was displeased on multiple accounts with his coL deal, and when they basically said gtfo he had no qualms about joining another organization Its really not that big of a leap. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On December 12 2011 01:47 Angel_ wrote: In the end though, as a community, regardless of who you're a fan of, you should demand that issues stay in between those parties and NO ONE should spread shit, or you should grab everyone's view point involved. To sit and say, "I want this player's viewpoint because it's obviously the truth and no one else better say anything about it or contradict it in the slightest"...it's just ignorant. It's willful ignorance. There are a few issues with this, though. 1. Transparency is needed so that the community can learn more about the people and organizations involved in our scene, and so that we know whom we can trust, and whom we shouldn't really support (obviously that's up to everyone to decide for themselves). Sadly, the amount of bullshit that goes on in a scene is always directly proportional to the amount of money being thrown into it. As ugly and irritating as it is to hear/read, it's very healthy for the scene that people and organizations receive public backlash for doing things that the fans dislike, especially if they're actually making money off of the scene. 2. You can't grab both view points when the view points are mutually conflicting. In that case, one side of the story does not contribute to the other and make you any less ignorant if you were to acknowledge both. You need to examine the circumstances and the context to figure out who is moire likely to be telling the truth, or on the other hand - who benefits more from creatively interpreting the truth. You don't have to be a fan of either Naniwa and Complexity, or initially biased in any other way, or even care about the issue at all to reach your own conclusion on which side of the story is more suspicious. On December 12 2011 02:00 LuckoftheIrish wrote: What's the interpretation we're missing here? How would you like us to explain away NaNiwa saying that money was part of the reason why he left (leaving aside that he had very little choice in the matter) AND complaining that his performances aren't valued enough? Not being valued enough does not necessarily imply not being rewarded financially and part of the reason is not the whole reason. Complexity obviously did not value him enough as a player - hence they were willing to part with him so easily - regardless of whether they were paying him appropriately or not. It is safe to assume that this relationship was never healthy to begin with. | ||
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Eee
Sweden2712 Posts
On December 12 2011 01:21 Liquid`Tyler wrote: They do care the same way, just not to the same extent. It's ridiculous to think that NaNi thought that he had exactly quantified the amount that Complexity values a tournament placement and the amount they value stream viewers and determined that a 2nd place finish in a tournament is exactly equal to 5000 stream viewers (and then equalized salaries based on one instance?). There are so many things wrong with that interpretation that it's absolutely absurd to entertain it for even a second. To the extent that that interpretation is absurd, the other interpretation is obvious: the type of value tournament placements and stream viewers have is similar. Both are a lot of exposure. Complexity values exposure. The difference between the two is that one requires a lot more skill at the game than the other. We all know that NaNi values skill and results over everything. So NaNi values the tournament placement and he doesn't value the stream viewers. This is all completely obvious to anyone with the slightest clue about NaNi's priorities and how teams like Complexity work. To think that catz's salary compared to naniwa's salary is relevant to nani's statement is the incorrect line of thinking. Everyone has realized how absurd it is and then turned that on NaNi, saying he's absurd and bullshitting us to say that. Stop for a second and check back to NaNi's words and realize that they are ambiguous and not exclusively indicating this absurd interpretation. Yes, they leave that interpretation open but they also leave open a completely reasonable and normal interpretation. Have some fucking respect and give him the benefit of the doubt. Pretty much this, seems like a lot of people are making really exagerated interpretations of NaNis statement. | ||
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Angel_
United States1617 Posts
On December 12 2011 02:03 Talin wrote: There are a few issues with this, though. 1. Transparency is needed so that the community can learn more about the people and organizations involved in our scene, and so that we know whom we can trust, and whom we shouldn't really support (obviously that's up to everyone to decide for themselves). Sadly, the amount of bullshit that goes on in a scene is always directly proportional to the amount of money being thrown into it. As ugly and irritating as it is to hear/read, it's very healthy for the scene that people and organizations receive public backlash for doing things that the fans dislike, especially if they're actually making money off of the scene. 2. You can't grab both view points when the view points are mutually conflicting. In that case, one side of the story does not contribute to the other and make you any less ignorant if you were to acknowledge both. You need to examine the circumstances and the context to figure out who is moire likely to be telling the truth, or on the other hand - who benefits more from creatively interpreting the truth. You don't have to be a fan of either Naniwa and Complexity, or initially biased in any other way, or even care about the issue at all to reach your own conclusion on which side of the story is more suspicious. I'm not disagreeing with either point your making. If anything i think you sort of are repeating me a little differently, unless I'm drastically misunderstanding you. I'm not saying people shouldn't criticize how things are reported or anything remotely to that effect either. My point really, simply, is that there's way too much blind bias and accepting, and not enough examining and listening. That doesn't mean grabbing both, but, at least considering both and looking at it as objectively as one can while obviously biased and at least considering other perspectives. Which, I believe, is your entire second point. Which is...basically a summary of what i tried to say. I think? | ||
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
P.S. i am not up to date on ALL Nani drama, does anyone want to put a timeline or a description (objectively) of all that has happened? | ||
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NonY
8748 Posts
On December 12 2011 01:37 Rabbet wrote: Everything that comes out of Naniwa's mouth has to be "translated" to be properly understood. Calling Nestea an idiot..."well he didn't mean he was an idiot of course not, its the language barrier." The time of people obfuscating all of Naniwa's words should be at an end and while a truly amazing player it needs to be understood that Naniwa is a complete joke socially and should not be sheltered from scrutiny in this regard. You're welcome. The next time people are obfuscating his words, I'll clear things up again like I did here. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On December 12 2011 02:11 Angel_ wrote: I'm not disagreeing with either point your making. If anything i think you sort of are repeating me a little differently, unless I'm drastically misunderstanding you. My point really, simply, is that there's way too much blind bias and accepting, and not enough examining and listening. That doesn't mean grabbing both, but, at least considering both and looking at it as objectively as one can while obviously biased and at least considering other perspectives. I'm not saying people shouldn't criticize how things are reported or anything remotely to that effect either. Which, I believe, is your entire second point. Which is...basically a summary of what i tried to say. That is not how I interpreted your post, but in that case we agree.  | ||
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Detri
United Kingdom683 Posts
It's no different to what happens in other professional sports the only difference is no many footballers transfer 3 times in 1 month. Still I hope NaNi continues to improve and do well in tournaments. glhfgg. | ||
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diophan
United States1018 Posts
On December 12 2011 02:20 Detri wrote: meh, its a free market guys. You sell your "labour" for the most you can get for it. If NaNi can get more money with another team, go for it, if he can get better practice with another team, well.... all the better. It's no different to what happens in other professional sports the only difference is no many footballers transfer 3 times in 1 month. Still I hope NaNi continues to improve and do well in tournaments. glhfgg. And plenty of people get mad at sports players who move elsewhere for better money and perhaps a better chance at winning a championship while dissing their former team. | ||
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careohx
263 Posts
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