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I watched the interviewing and just finished reading through the whole topic...from the interview he was saying he wasn't receiving much money as he probably wanted from complexity, he then continued to say that complexity viewed him the same as they would do Catz, the way he stated his views there was a bit inappropriate because he was basically saying he is much better then Catz and that complexity viewed them as the same.. however I think Naniwa is an honest person and just says whats on his mind without thinking twice about it, so we can't hold anything against him for that.
However when Catz replied in this topic, he made a lot of personal attacks towards Naniwa whilst calling him a friend.. Catz if he was really your friend you wouldn't of said all those things about him, true or not you do not say things like that about friends.. It seemed like you really wanted to diminish Naniwa's reputation even more. I think your feelings may have been hurt when Naniwa used you as an example, but you shouldn't of got so angry over that.. the fact is he is a much better player than you and he has the wins under his belt, so if he goes around saying he is better than you, you shouldn't feel insulted.
It just seems to me like Catz is being a little envious of Naniwa
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People criticize Naniwa's personality and social awkwardness as being detrimental to his value as a player... but the very fact that his personality causes so much discussion proves otherwise.
Naniwa's personality is part of his marketability. Whatever he does tends to raise drama, and that's helped along by his strength as a player. His unmistakable personality allows him to stand out in a field of faceless nondescript players who are often described as "actually a nice guy in real life" by various casters.
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On December 11 2011 15:52 SuperFanBoy wrote:
I watched the interviewing and just finished reading through the whole topic...from the interview he was saying he wasn't receiving much money as he probably wanted from complexity, he then continued to say that complexity viewed him the same as they would do Catz, the way he stated his views there was a bit inappropriate because he was basically saying he is much better then Catz and that complexity viewed them as the same.. however I think Naniwa is an honest person and just says whats on his mind without thinking twice about it, so we can't hold anything against him for that.
However when Catz replied in this topic, he made a lot of personal attacks towards Naniwa whilst calling him a friend.. Catz if he was really your friend you wouldn't of said all those things about him, true or not you do not say things like that about friends.. It seemed like you really wanted to diminish Naniwa's reputation even more. I think your feelings may have been hurt when Naniwa used you as an example, but you shouldn't of got so angry over that.. the fact is he is a much better player than you and he has the wins under his belt, so if he goes around saying he is better than you, you shouldn't feel insulted.
It just seems to me like Catz is being a little envious of Naniwa
I should stop replying to posts like this but i guess this will be my last one.
Even though as you said, and as everyone knows, naniwa is a way better player then Catz.
But that's not really what nani said, he just said that coL values 5k viewers as much as a top finish in MLG.
There is no doubt in my mind that he used catz as an example simply because he is really the only one in coL with even close to this many viewers, am i right?
I don't know why catz replied, if he felt offended or something. Don't think he should though, since nothing bad about him was actually said...
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Haha what Catz said really confirms all the rumors that Naniwa is still difficult to handle haha. It's ok. He will learn those lessons in time. He has at least acknowledged the need to change. That's good. Like an alcoholic.
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On December 11 2011 15:52 SuperFanBoy wrote:
I watched the interviewing and just finished reading through the whole topic...from the interview he was saying he wasn't receiving much money as he probably wanted from complexity, he then continued to say that complexity viewed him the same as they would do Catz, the way he stated his views there was a bit inappropriate because he was basically saying he is much better then Catz and that complexity viewed them as the same.. however I think Naniwa is an honest person and just says whats on his mind without thinking twice about it, so we can't hold anything against him for that.
However when Catz replied in this topic, he made a lot of personal attacks towards Naniwa whilst calling him a friend.. Catz if he was really your friend you wouldn't of said all those things about him, true or not you do not say things like that about friends.. It seemed like you really wanted to diminish Naniwa's reputation even more. I think your feelings may have been hurt when Naniwa used you as an example, but you shouldn't of got so angry over that.. the fact is he is a much better player than you and he has the wins under his belt, so if he goes around saying he is better than you, you shouldn't feel insulted.
It just seems to me like Catz is being a little envious of Naniwa
It is all being marketable for a north american based structure like Complexity. Catz is hispanic, lives in America, has no competitions to prepare for so he can stream his ladder all day everyday, struggles against opponents and likes to troll people in game (cheese and ragequits) and outside of the game (reprehensible behavior towards casters and players), thus represent a perfectly marketable product for a NA base audience that can identify to him. While Naniwa, a top european pro gamer, training in korean with different time zones, preparing for competitions and thus can't stream most of his practice, can't weigh himself in the balance the way than Catz can, to ask extra support from Complexity, and had to take a decision considering his future based on this conclusion.
Structures and players have different goals and point of views, partnerships come when they find a compatibility, but once they can't, one has to recognize that his career is being impeded by what he is being asked and must take the fire for breaking away.
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On December 10 2011 09:15 qqK wrote:
I dont understand complexity's reddit comment o.O
Why do they insist on having kicked out naniwa and would have even against his will, if Naniwa tells a completely different story (which already was part of his initial statement). Even if it was as coL described, wouldn't it have been much better publicity-wise to get their shit together beforehand and release one story without contradictions?
Well, who cares about coL anyway, good luck in the future, nani.
Unforunately a lot of teams do this, including ones that I have been on. I have left teams due to the immaturity of their players only to find out later that they told everyone "Yeah we kicked him out he sucks". It's a very petty and pathetic way for them to try and save face.
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On December 11 2011 17:05 Rainier206 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 09:15 qqK wrote:
I dont understand complexity's reddit comment o.O
Why do they insist on having kicked out naniwa and would have even against his will, if Naniwa tells a completely different story (which already was part of his initial statement). Even if it was as coL described, wouldn't it have been much better publicity-wise to get their shit together beforehand and release one story without contradictions?
Well, who cares about coL anyway, good luck in the future, nani. Unforunately a lot of teams do this, including ones that I have been on. I have left teams due to the immaturity of their players only to find out later that they told everyone "Yeah we kicked him out he sucks". It's a very petty and pathetic way for them to try and save face.
Only, Quantic has confirmed in the OP that Complexity approached them prior to Naniwa, which would affirm that they were looking to sell his contract. They lucked out on finding that Quantic was interested in Naniwa, and Naniwa was interested in being on the same team as Sase.
It surely would have been less confusing and more productive if Naniwa and Complexity had released a statement together, but that's really equally the fault of both of them unless one party tried to contact the other to have a joined press release only to be turned down. Regardless, after a statement from one side is released, I don't see it as unprofessional or petty at all for the other side to correct it if it's just flat-out wrong. That's all that Complexity really did.
Best of luck to both parties. Some of the responses in this thread have been pretty ridiculous.
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I can totally understand Nani's point of view, as I went to grad school in an area way outside my comfort zone and got really lonely/depressed and couldn't make it no matter how hard I tried. Maybe I'm biased, but I'm totally for his switch.
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I like CatZ and I watch him all the time but I don't agree with stream viewer count being equivalent to a MLG placing of 2nd, especially at Nationals.
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On December 11 2011 18:10 BLacKOuTz wrote:
I like CatZ and I watch him all the time but I don't agree with stream viewer count being equivalent to a MLG placing of 2nd, especially at Nationals.
And neither Catz nor coL ever said it was so what's your problem?
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It is quite apparent that Naniwa is telling the truth about CoL valuing exposure over results. With players such Catz, drewbie, minigun, trimaster etc. The exposure-type of players seems to be on very good terms with the management.
The results-oriented players such as Naniwa or Stephano however, as the facts show, does not work well with the CoL management.
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On December 11 2011 16:30 Ownos wrote:
Haha what Catz said really confirms all the rumors that Naniwa is still difficult to handle haha. It's ok. He will learn those lessons in time. He has at least acknowledged the need to change. That's good. Like an alcoholic.
Haha oh god. So many posters here are obviously a lot more socially awkward than nani could be even if he put his heart to it.. Like an alcoholic? Wow..
Yeah nani's totally like an alcoholic -_-
Don't complain about behaviour if you can't keep yourself from being socially retarded in the same post.
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On December 11 2011 04:53 coL.CatZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 04:42 HardMacro wrote:On December 11 2011 04:24 coL.CatZ wrote:
oh wow didn't really take a look at this thread until now, first of all, I feel like people are way misguided here, Naniwa made 3 times as much as I do as far as salary goes, so no, obviously we're not the same. I don't know why Naniwa chose to use me as an example, but what he stated is simply false, and I doubt he was referring to salary. ofc they don't care the same way if he wins a big event than if i have a bunch of viewers on my stream.
I will tell you one more thing, I make 1/3 of what Naniwa makes in salary, but if Naniwa learned to behave, he'd make at least 6 times as much, unfortunately, he's been burning bridges since he started playing this game, and even before that, so no one will offer him the salary he deserves based off of the skill he has as a player, and as sad as it is, he knows that.
I consider Johan a friend and wish him the best of luck in QxG, truth is he has been trying to change for a long time, he has been trying to clear his PR a bit, he tries to bm less, gg more, be less rude in general, but his personality is what it is. He is picky, he is arrogant, he is many things that make him a difficult human being to work with, he is quick to be a smartass and be offensive at times, but he is also quickest to get offended. He as we all are, is a human with a lot of flaws. He is also a very honest person, and most of the time has tons of good intentions, but translating these into actions is hard for him. you know how as little kids everyone says w/e they want and do w/e they want and there's little to no repercussions, but then as you grow up you learn 'oh shit, that was the wrong way to approach this or that' or 'maybe i shouldn't say that' or 'trying to explain this will just cause more confusion', you know, like when a Jehovah's witness knocks on your door you don't tell them 'fuck off, you're wrong about everything you're saying' you're polite about it, then go back inside and rant 'it was just those annoying people trying to sell me their god again' well naniwa didn't learn most of those things, so he's stuck in the phase where he is incredibly hard to deal with. He's not a bad person, and once you get to know him and try to understand him a bit better, he's actually pretty cool, so, Johan, best of luck to you, I hope you find a home in QxG where you're at last comfortable and best of luck to QxG, please be patient and treat carefully! You're a cool guy CatZ but was your post really necessary? The overall tone of your poorly written stub aside, essentially you're pretty much blatantly stating that Niniwa is an immature, arrogant, insecure, picky, offensive, stubborn "little kid" "who didn't learn most of those [social norms] things [as a kid]", who's incapable of translating his good intentions into actions and of changing himself?That seems WAY out of line to me, no matter how much you feebly attempt to sugar coat it with a few meager positive qualities and feigned friendliness. If you really were a friend of Niniwa you wouldn't not have posted in the way you did; so don't lie (or, what a great friend you are, posting what you did about a friend on Teamliquid). My opinion of you as a person just sky dived quite a bit, I wish you appropriate karma for all your actions in the the future. you clearly love the drama, read what i wrote as you choose and make as big a deal of it as you want, this is my opinion and I think naniwa's well aware of all of this, I don't think he is a bad person because of it but I think changing certain attitudes will help him not just in his gaming career but for the rest of his life, so sure, you can be the cool dood that 'supports' him and tells him "hey johan don't listen to anyone, you're doing everything right, just be yourself, the world must adapt to you not the other way arround and the 6 or so teams that you've joined since the game started were all wrong' you're a complete idiot. fact is he needs to change certain attitudes or he's fucked, so im not trying to sugarcoat anything, im being as honest as naniwa usually is, because he NEEDS to adapt to some extend in order to succeed and get what he deserves. that's all, im not commenting anymore on this thread, unfortunately there's too many idiots like yourself trying to cause friction and sound smart at all costs, fact is you don't know me, you don't know naniwa, you don't know complexity, you don't know qxg, you know what you read, and form your opinions from that, so more reading, less judging.
I didn't find Catz' post offensive and real friends are not the people who just blindly support other people, but those guys that will not hide the truth from you and want to help you make yourself a better person. Furthermore, I think we all know at this point that Naniwa, while a great SC2 player, has had personal difficulties for a couple years now and has struggled with them, sometimes privately, sometimes less so. So none of anything Catz said is surprising.
I agree the timing is off because of all the emotions flying around however.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On December 11 2011 16:30 Ownos wrote:
Haha what Catz said really confirms all the rumors that Naniwa is still difficult to handle haha. It's ok. He will learn those lessons in time. He has at least acknowledged the need to change. That's good. Like an alcoholic.
Oh man, don't even go there.
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Good interview.
I honestly don't understand how people can dissect the intentions of companies and people and infer their personal situation and whatever else. Seems like some people think StarCraft is a gossip mag.
Personally, I feel insulting people based on rumour and not specific examples of public display is disgraceful. If someone who knows him personally wants to make public complaints or whatever, that's up to them. For RandomForumPoster344 to make personal comments though? Do not approve at all.
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Your first post was pretty disgusting CatZ, almost as much as your singing voice (haha ok that was mean, don't you be upset); you should, IMO, not have got involved.
Go NaNiWa
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I'm just wondering how hard it can be to make sure that all the information and statements regarding the transfer is 100% ironed out before making official posts on the team sites.
Also posting information regarding who's right or wrong on reddit looks aweful. At least do it on the official twitter or website.
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On December 11 2011 21:55 Dr.Sin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 04:53 coL.CatZ wrote:On December 11 2011 04:42 HardMacro wrote:On December 11 2011 04:24 coL.CatZ wrote:
oh wow didn't really take a look at this thread until now, first of all, I feel like people are way misguided here, Naniwa made 3 times as much as I do as far as salary goes, so no, obviously we're not the same. I don't know why Naniwa chose to use me as an example, but what he stated is simply false, and I doubt he was referring to salary. ofc they don't care the same way if he wins a big event than if i have a bunch of viewers on my stream.
I will tell you one more thing, I make 1/3 of what Naniwa makes in salary, but if Naniwa learned to behave, he'd make at least 6 times as much, unfortunately, he's been burning bridges since he started playing this game, and even before that, so no one will offer him the salary he deserves based off of the skill he has as a player, and as sad as it is, he knows that.
I consider Johan a friend and wish him the best of luck in QxG, truth is he has been trying to change for a long time, he has been trying to clear his PR a bit, he tries to bm less, gg more, be less rude in general, but his personality is what it is. He is picky, he is arrogant, he is many things that make him a difficult human being to work with, he is quick to be a smartass and be offensive at times, but he is also quickest to get offended. He as we all are, is a human with a lot of flaws. He is also a very honest person, and most of the time has tons of good intentions, but translating these into actions is hard for him. you know how as little kids everyone says w/e they want and do w/e they want and there's little to no repercussions, but then as you grow up you learn 'oh shit, that was the wrong way to approach this or that' or 'maybe i shouldn't say that' or 'trying to explain this will just cause more confusion', you know, like when a Jehovah's witness knocks on your door you don't tell them 'fuck off, you're wrong about everything you're saying' you're polite about it, then go back inside and rant 'it was just those annoying people trying to sell me their god again' well naniwa didn't learn most of those things, so he's stuck in the phase where he is incredibly hard to deal with. He's not a bad person, and once you get to know him and try to understand him a bit better, he's actually pretty cool, so, Johan, best of luck to you, I hope you find a home in QxG where you're at last comfortable and best of luck to QxG, please be patient and treat carefully! You're a cool guy CatZ but was your post really necessary? The overall tone of your poorly written stub aside, essentially you're pretty much blatantly stating that Niniwa is an immature, arrogant, insecure, picky, offensive, stubborn "little kid" "who didn't learn most of those [social norms] things [as a kid]", who's incapable of translating his good intentions into actions and of changing himself?That seems WAY out of line to me, no matter how much you feebly attempt to sugar coat it with a few meager positive qualities and feigned friendliness. If you really were a friend of Niniwa you wouldn't not have posted in the way you did; so don't lie (or, what a great friend you are, posting what you did about a friend on Teamliquid). My opinion of you as a person just sky dived quite a bit, I wish you appropriate karma for all your actions in the the future. you clearly love the drama, read what i wrote as you choose and make as big a deal of it as you want, this is my opinion and I think naniwa's well aware of all of this, I don't think he is a bad person because of it but I think changing certain attitudes will help him not just in his gaming career but for the rest of his life, so sure, you can be the cool dood that 'supports' him and tells him "hey johan don't listen to anyone, you're doing everything right, just be yourself, the world must adapt to you not the other way arround and the 6 or so teams that you've joined since the game started were all wrong' you're a complete idiot. fact is he needs to change certain attitudes or he's fucked, so im not trying to sugarcoat anything, im being as honest as naniwa usually is, because he NEEDS to adapt to some extend in order to succeed and get what he deserves. that's all, im not commenting anymore on this thread, unfortunately there's too many idiots like yourself trying to cause friction and sound smart at all costs, fact is you don't know me, you don't know naniwa, you don't know complexity, you don't know qxg, you know what you read, and form your opinions from that, so more reading, less judging. I didn't find Catz' post offensive and real friends are not the people who just blindly support other people, but those guys that will not hide the truth from you and want to help you make yourself a better person.
You don't insult or talk negatively about your real friends on public forums. He can say what-ever he wants to Naniwa but there is no reason to make it public, as now it just feels like public defamation.
Catz, unfortunately, is the kind of player who does what he can in order to get fame and exposure. As he cannot do it by results, it does it by yelling on steam or takes the opportunity to talk down his "friends" in public.
Can't really blame him though, everyone wants a piece of the money pie that is Starcraft 2 at the moment and there is always room for the opportunist who is prepared to do what others don't.
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On December 11 2011 15:39 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 15:19 Mycl wrote:On December 11 2011 14:44 Madder wrote:On December 11 2011 13:56 On_Slaught wrote:On December 11 2011 12:45 JaBrOnI wrote:
This is exactly what I like about Naniwa. All the play and never the advertising.
That's how a professional player's attitude should be. Not just about the money and hype. Why can't they be about winning AND advertising? Plenty of players are great a both. Naniwa is only good at one. Why can't they just be about one? And the most important one too. Because being about both is better then 1 Assuming equal talent at both is wrong also. By having to put work into one area, that is time and effort potentially lost in the other. I do think one should try. But like Tyler's view from SotG, playing should take the higher priority.
Maybe this is controversial but I partly disagree. SC2 is where it is in the foreign community in big part because of the time and effort some well known players put into making the game popular. There's no way the top players would be making the kind of money they do if it was all about the games themselves.
I don't think it's fair to make the players chose between practicing and PR and in the end the guy with the best results is going to end up with most of the pie. But the size of the pie very much depends on the time and effort players put into interacting with fans. So there is absolutely nothing wrong with teams and tournaments asking this from their players.
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On December 11 2011 22:26 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 15:39 rotegirte wrote:On December 11 2011 15:19 Mycl wrote:On December 11 2011 14:44 Madder wrote:On December 11 2011 13:56 On_Slaught wrote:On December 11 2011 12:45 JaBrOnI wrote:
This is exactly what I like about Naniwa. All the play and never the advertising.
That's how a professional player's attitude should be. Not just about the money and hype. Why can't they be about winning AND advertising? Plenty of players are great a both. Naniwa is only good at one. Why can't they just be about one? And the most important one too. Because being about both is better then 1 Assuming equal talent at both is wrong also. By having to put work into one area, that is time and effort potentially lost in the other. I do think one should try. But like Tyler's view from SotG, playing should take the higher priority. Maybe this is controversial but I partly disagree. SC2 is where it is in the foreign community in big part because of the time and effort some well known players put into making the game popular. There's no way the top players would be making the kind of money they do if it was all about the games themselves. I don't think it's fair to make the players chose between practicing and PR and in the end the guy with the best results is going to end up with most of the pie. But the size of the pie very much depends on the time and effort players put into interacting with fans. So there is absolutely nothing wrong with teams and tournaments asking this from their players.
To compare, lets take the two extremes. For one, take someone who is only into PR, such as Tejbz (the Dreamhack host). And then take a person who is only into playing, such as SaSe.
I'd take and cheer for players like SaSe any day of the week over Tejbz. I'd say that the only reason people like Destiny or Catz are even getting any attention, is due to them being from American and America has a ton of people but extremely few decent players and thus the few that can play are getting a ton of attention.
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EPT
