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On December 11 2011 22:11 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 21:55 Dr.Sin wrote:On December 11 2011 04:53 coL.CatZ wrote:On December 11 2011 04:42 HardMacro wrote:On December 11 2011 04:24 coL.CatZ wrote:
oh wow didn't really take a look at this thread until now, first of all, I feel like people are way misguided here, Naniwa made 3 times as much as I do as far as salary goes, so no, obviously we're not the same. I don't know why Naniwa chose to use me as an example, but what he stated is simply false, and I doubt he was referring to salary. ofc they don't care the same way if he wins a big event than if i have a bunch of viewers on my stream.
I will tell you one more thing, I make 1/3 of what Naniwa makes in salary, but if Naniwa learned to behave, he'd make at least 6 times as much, unfortunately, he's been burning bridges since he started playing this game, and even before that, so no one will offer him the salary he deserves based off of the skill he has as a player, and as sad as it is, he knows that.
I consider Johan a friend and wish him the best of luck in QxG, truth is he has been trying to change for a long time, he has been trying to clear his PR a bit, he tries to bm less, gg more, be less rude in general, but his personality is what it is. He is picky, he is arrogant, he is many things that make him a difficult human being to work with, he is quick to be a smartass and be offensive at times, but he is also quickest to get offended. He as we all are, is a human with a lot of flaws. He is also a very honest person, and most of the time has tons of good intentions, but translating these into actions is hard for him. you know how as little kids everyone says w/e they want and do w/e they want and there's little to no repercussions, but then as you grow up you learn 'oh shit, that was the wrong way to approach this or that' or 'maybe i shouldn't say that' or 'trying to explain this will just cause more confusion', you know, like when a Jehovah's witness knocks on your door you don't tell them 'fuck off, you're wrong about everything you're saying' you're polite about it, then go back inside and rant 'it was just those annoying people trying to sell me their god again' well naniwa didn't learn most of those things, so he's stuck in the phase where he is incredibly hard to deal with. He's not a bad person, and once you get to know him and try to understand him a bit better, he's actually pretty cool, so, Johan, best of luck to you, I hope you find a home in QxG where you're at last comfortable and best of luck to QxG, please be patient and treat carefully! You're a cool guy CatZ but was your post really necessary? The overall tone of your poorly written stub aside, essentially you're pretty much blatantly stating that Niniwa is an immature, arrogant, insecure, picky, offensive, stubborn "little kid" "who didn't learn most of those [social norms] things [as a kid]", who's incapable of translating his good intentions into actions and of changing himself?That seems WAY out of line to me, no matter how much you feebly attempt to sugar coat it with a few meager positive qualities and feigned friendliness. If you really were a friend of Niniwa you wouldn't not have posted in the way you did; so don't lie (or, what a great friend you are, posting what you did about a friend on Teamliquid). My opinion of you as a person just sky dived quite a bit, I wish you appropriate karma for all your actions in the the future. you clearly love the drama, read what i wrote as you choose and make as big a deal of it as you want, this is my opinion and I think naniwa's well aware of all of this, I don't think he is a bad person because of it but I think changing certain attitudes will help him not just in his gaming career but for the rest of his life, so sure, you can be the cool dood that 'supports' him and tells him "hey johan don't listen to anyone, you're doing everything right, just be yourself, the world must adapt to you not the other way arround and the 6 or so teams that you've joined since the game started were all wrong' you're a complete idiot. fact is he needs to change certain attitudes or he's fucked, so im not trying to sugarcoat anything, im being as honest as naniwa usually is, because he NEEDS to adapt to some extend in order to succeed and get what he deserves. that's all, im not commenting anymore on this thread, unfortunately there's too many idiots like yourself trying to cause friction and sound smart at all costs, fact is you don't know me, you don't know naniwa, you don't know complexity, you don't know qxg, you know what you read, and form your opinions from that, so more reading, less judging. I didn't find Catz' post offensive and real friends are not the people who just blindly support other people, but those guys that will not hide the truth from you and want to help you make yourself a better person. You don't insult or talk negatively about your real friends on public forums. He can say what-ever he wants to Naniwa but there is no reason to make it public, as now it just feels like public defamation. Catz, unfortunately, is the kind of player who does what he can in order to get fame and exposure. As he cannot do it by results, it does it by yelling on steam or takes the opportunity to talk down his "friends" in public. Can't really blame him though, everyone wants a piece of the money pie that is Starcraft 2 at the moment and there is always room for the opportunist who is prepared to do what others don't.
Well sayd Paladia.
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On December 11 2011 22:26 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 15:39 rotegirte wrote:On December 11 2011 15:19 Mycl wrote:On December 11 2011 14:44 Madder wrote:On December 11 2011 13:56 On_Slaught wrote:On December 11 2011 12:45 JaBrOnI wrote:
This is exactly what I like about Naniwa. All the play and never the advertising.
That's how a professional player's attitude should be. Not just about the money and hype. Why can't they be about winning AND advertising? Plenty of players are great a both. Naniwa is only good at one. Why can't they just be about one? And the most important one too. Because being about both is better then 1 Assuming equal talent at both is wrong also. By having to put work into one area, that is time and effort potentially lost in the other. I do think one should try. But like Tyler's view from SotG, playing should take the higher priority. Maybe this is controversial but I partly disagree. SC2 is where it is in the foreign community in big part because of the time and effort some well known players put into making the game popular. There's no way the top players would be making the kind of money they do if it was all about the games themselves. I don't think it's fair to make the players chose between practicing and PR and in the end the guy with the best results is going to end up with most of the pie. But the size of the pie very much depends on the time and effort players put into interacting with fans. So there is absolutely nothing wrong with teams and tournaments asking this from their players.
I dont think people disagree with that. Ofcourse PR towards the fans and the community is very important. But l8tly I notise a trend where people talking about players being marketable or not. I dont like this sc 2 is a competition about skills and that should allways be first every time.
I notise especially the NA teams are very good at PR and exposure. And there is ofcourse nothing wrong with that. All im saying if they spend as much time as training there players in a good environment then they do with there PR machine. Maybe the foreigner players woulnt be so behind the Koreans.
Isnt it abit sad we got players like Incontrol and catz with more viewers and more exposure then a korean player like Startale Virus who clearly is a million times better at this game.
But still he only got 50 viewers on his stream o.0
I find that very sad
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HappyChris; Naniwa made his comment about coL valuing his results and Catz' viewers equally. It seems you're just jumping on people in this thread to justify your point of view, but it would be nice if you could be a little more objective about things. Naniwa's statement is the one that is incorrect, Catz has every right to tell his side of the story and share it honestly. In fact I would say we need a lot more people to come out and share the truth, especially when others are misrepresenting things.
Streaming first and foremost is entertainment. It is not a tournament. Saying a good and relatively unknown player has to have 10,000 viewers makes as much sense as saying Destiny should win GSL. I understand you would like for all the good players to have high viewer counts, and so would I, but guys like Incontrol, Destiny and Catz put in hard fucking work to be entertaining. There's no need to hate.
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On December 11 2011 23:31 HappyChris wrote:
Isnt it abit sad we got players like Incontrol and catz with more viewers and more exposure then a korean player like Startale Virus who clearly is a million times better at this game.
But still he only got 50 viewers on his stream o.0
I find that very sad
IDK, that's kind of my point. People are more interested in Incontrol because they know him or think they know him. If MLG had 20 Koreans and maybe 4-5 foreigners that are around their skill level they wouldn't have nearly the same kind of following.
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On December 11 2011 23:50 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
HappyChris; Naniwa made his comment about coL valuing his results and Catz' viewers equally. It seems you're just jumping on people in this thread to justify your point of view, but it would be nice if you could be a little more objective about things. Naniwa's statement is the one that is incorrect, Catz has every right to tell his side of the story and share it honestly. In fact I would say we need a lot more people to come out and share the truth, especially when others are misrepresenting things.
I never sayd Naniwa´s statement was correct Nazgul all I sayd about Catz was I dont think it was necessery to come out in a public forum and post about Naniwa´s mental state.
And maybe is the truth or not but does it really matter? Personaly i dont care. Im proberly old fashion in these matters. But I just dont think its fair towards anyone when personal information is being showcased on a public forum.
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This isn't some TMZ inhouse family violence (I would fully agree with you if this were the case). This is directly related to how Naniwa behaves in his professional career, as well as a reply to public comments.
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In addition that it didn't unveil anything that hasn't already been said by multiple other independent sources in the past.
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Naniwa is young and a little wild. I think he just needs some restrain to go with his talent
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On December 12 2011 00:03 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
This isn't some TMZ inhouse family violence (I would fully agree with you if this were the case). This is directly related to how Naniwa behaves in his professional career, as well as a reply to public comments.
hehe, Point taken
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Did col really value catz popular stream as much naniwa's great result? I mean naniwa was earning thrice the amount catz did and that is quite the difference. Anywaysm I hope naniwa will own face under quantic! Looking forward to see him in the gsl.
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Naniwa cops way too much shit for just wanting to be the best. He shouldn't have to put up with the community making him feel insecure about doing what's best for him and his future like that. Best of luck to the kid though, will always be a fan. I'm gonna go buy a Chill Get Out shirt from the handsome nerd now to support him :D
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On December 12 2011 00:03 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
This isn't some TMZ inhouse family violence.
These days it's hard to see the difference tbh, all everyone care about is the fucking E-drama -,-'
c'est la vie
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Switzerland2892 Posts
Did this thread turn in I love/hate catz/naniwa/complexity?
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Naniwa hwaiting! Good luck in code S!
Thanks for content yo.
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On December 11 2011 21:25 Paladia wrote:
The results-oriented players such as Naniwa or Stephano however, as the facts show, does not work well with the CoL management.
I don't think you remember what happened with the Stephano situation...
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On December 12 2011 00:19 chaynesore wrote:
Naniwa cops way too much shit for just wanting to be the best. He shouldn't have to put up with the community making him feel insecure about doing what's best for him and his future like that.
If he wanted to join another team I don't think many people would be up in arms (other than the standard "oh nani is switching teams again" crew). The fact that he called out his team, saying they valued stream viewership as much as wins, is what pisses people off. As has been stated, he gets 3 times as much money as catz, so this obviously isn't right. If you want to switch teams, go for it. If you want to go out of your way to burn bridges and insult people, that's quite another thing.
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On December 12 2011 00:03 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
This isn't some TMZ inhouse family violence (I would fully agree with you if this were the case). This is directly related to how Naniwa behaves in his professional career, as well as a reply to public comments.
o please the post catz made was CLEARLY condescending. we look at coL history and specifically catz history with players and you see a common thread. his professionalism is in question in my book. one, its not his job to comment on naniwas mental state as he is not qualified and two, he shit talks people CONSTANTLY on streams. ever watch his stream? a fav comment of mine is "this guy is so bad he will never make any money in sc2" catz is a pro that is going to fade away very quickly. he isnt fast, he isnt particularly good at anything really in sc2 that will keep him around and somehow hes been put in a position where he can shit talk naniwa and then sugar coat it and its ok? naniwa is a talent, name 100 skilled people at dif things in life and ill show you a good portion of them that have egos. you think naniwa likes being obscure? i doubt it. most likely the case with these past teams is that naniwa despite his success is getting the short end of the stick.
its VERY clear that naniwa perceives the fact that he is just as well known as catz as a bad thing. it is, catz isnt even 1/1001000 of the player naniwa is and he should want more. his last team imo didnt do a good job. so what if he social lacking, the job of the team is to help naniwa get over that and look good to the public.
these teams do a piss poor job of PR. they send players who have problems speaking in public or get nervous out on stage and they look stupid. give them some public speaking lessons. give them something to say. HELP THEM. the pros that win are not all MC they are soft spoken nerds that need help now that they are in a position of popularity. no team has helped defend naniwa and now hes on a team with destiny. sadly this is not a player of equal caliber and i hope this team treats naniwa like the player he is
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On December 11 2011 16:21 Ninjahoe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 15:52 SuperFanBoy wrote:
I watched the interviewing and just finished reading through the whole topic...from the interview he was saying he wasn't receiving much money as he probably wanted from complexity, he then continued to say that complexity viewed him the same as they would do Catz, the way he stated his views there was a bit inappropriate because he was basically saying he is much better then Catz and that complexity viewed them as the same.. however I think Naniwa is an honest person and just says whats on his mind without thinking twice about it, so we can't hold anything against him for that.
However when Catz replied in this topic, he made a lot of personal attacks towards Naniwa whilst calling him a friend.. Catz if he was really your friend you wouldn't of said all those things about him, true or not you do not say things like that about friends.. It seemed like you really wanted to diminish Naniwa's reputation even more. I think your feelings may have been hurt when Naniwa used you as an example, but you shouldn't of got so angry over that.. the fact is he is a much better player than you and he has the wins under his belt, so if he goes around saying he is better than you, you shouldn't feel insulted.
It just seems to me like Catz is being a little envious of Naniwa I should stop replying to posts like this but i guess this will be my last one. Even though as you said, and as everyone knows, naniwa is a way better player then Catz. But that's not really what nani said, he just said that coL values 5k viewers as much as a top finish in MLG. There is no doubt in my mind that he used catz as an example simply because he is really the only one in coL with even close to this many viewers, am i right? I don't know why catz replied, if he felt offended or something. Don't think he should though, since nothing bad about him was actually said...
Nothing has to be said, personal insecurity and jealousy can be difficult beasts to tame; the bigger your ego, the harder it is and judging from watching CatZ's stream, he is quite the confident SC2 player.
In any cut-throat business where there are a fuckton of good people competing but only with a handful of cream-of-the-crop individuals achieving success, there are bound to be occurrences of the inevitable ugly manifestation of human nature. Especially in SC2, where players are separated by the narrowest of benchmarks and margins near the top, I would actually be surprised if another player actually said anything good about Niniwa from Complexity.
When I look up to a player like MvP, I admire him because our relative skill in sc2 settles at a 1:10000 ratio. But can the same be said for all his teammates and peers? I'm pretty sure envy, bitterness at their personal lack of success and arrogance (spawning from being, although worst than 1/100000 people, better than 99999/100000 people) would be the dominant emotions over admiration.
I don't fault people for when they act upon these emotions because I've experienced and done the same thing in the music field, but it's pretty clear what had transpired so let's move on.
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That interviewer needs a throat lozenge for sure.
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On December 12 2011 00:57 HardMacro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 16:21 Ninjahoe wrote:On December 11 2011 15:52 SuperFanBoy wrote:
I watched the interviewing and just finished reading through the whole topic...from the interview he was saying he wasn't receiving much money as he probably wanted from complexity, he then continued to say that complexity viewed him the same as they would do Catz, the way he stated his views there was a bit inappropriate because he was basically saying he is much better then Catz and that complexity viewed them as the same.. however I think Naniwa is an honest person and just says whats on his mind without thinking twice about it, so we can't hold anything against him for that.
However when Catz replied in this topic, he made a lot of personal attacks towards Naniwa whilst calling him a friend.. Catz if he was really your friend you wouldn't of said all those things about him, true or not you do not say things like that about friends.. It seemed like you really wanted to diminish Naniwa's reputation even more. I think your feelings may have been hurt when Naniwa used you as an example, but you shouldn't of got so angry over that.. the fact is he is a much better player than you and he has the wins under his belt, so if he goes around saying he is better than you, you shouldn't feel insulted.
It just seems to me like Catz is being a little envious of Naniwa I should stop replying to posts like this but i guess this will be my last one. Even though as you said, and as everyone knows, naniwa is a way better player then Catz. But that's not really what nani said, he just said that coL values 5k viewers as much as a top finish in MLG. There is no doubt in my mind that he used catz as an example simply because he is really the only one in coL with even close to this many viewers, am i right? I don't know why catz replied, if he felt offended or something. Don't think he should though, since nothing bad about him was actually said... Nothing has to be said, personal insecurity and jealousy can be difficult beasts to tame; the bigger your ego, the harder it is and judging from watching CatZ's stream, he is quite the confident SC2 player. In any cut-throat business where there are a fuckton of good people competing but only with a handful of cream-of-the-crop individuals achieving success, there are bound to be occurrences of the inevitable ugly manifestation of human nature. Especially in SC2, where players are separated by the narrowest of benchmarks and margins near the top, I would actually be surprised if another player actually said anything good about Niniwa from Complexity. When I look up to a player like MvP, I admire him because our relative skill in sc2 settles at a 1:10000 ratio. But can the same be said for all his teammates and peers? I'm pretty sure envy, bitterness at their personal lack of success and arrogance (spawning from being, although worst than 1/100000 people, better than 99999/100000 people) would be the dominant emotions over admiration. I don't fault people for when they act upon these emotions because I've experienced and done the same thing in the music field, but it's pretty clear what had transpired so let's move on.
Agreed. To me, it felt like the hidden insults thrown in clearly showed that Catz was hugely affected by Naniwa's comments and that Catz felt like he had to answer back but wanted to maintain a good image so put in crap like "friend" and all that.
And i never liked Naniwa since the nestea scandal but i got to be with him on this. He didn't insult anyone, gave his opinions straight up but the other party kept putting in veiled insults at him in their official statements. I suppose some part of it is true that Naniwa may not be the easiest person to get along with, but your a professional gaming organisation.
A professional gaming organisation should just say "we have our differences and move on" kind of thing. If they wanted to rebut Naniwa's comments, they should have pulled out actual facts + reasoning and not just shit on Naniwa's character in public. I don't know but i felt Complexity handled this really badly and that has left a bad impression on me.
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EPT
