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On December 12 2011 02:24 diophan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 02:20 Detri wrote:
meh, its a free market guys. You sell your "labour" for the most you can get for it. If NaNi can get more money with another team, go for it, if he can get better practice with another team, well.... all the better.
It's no different to what happens in other professional sports the only difference is no many footballers transfer 3 times in 1 month. Still I hope NaNi continues to improve and do well in tournaments. glhfgg. And plenty of people get mad at sports players who move elsewhere for better money and perhaps a better chance at winning a championship while dissing their former team.
I don't feel like that stereotype can be applied to this case at all.
Complexity was never really Nani's "team" to begin with, there was very little attachment between the two. Apart from people who are diehard Complexity fans, I see no reason why anybody would look at things from that specific angle and be angry at Nani because of that.
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On December 12 2011 02:24 diophan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 02:20 Detri wrote:
meh, its a free market guys. You sell your "labour" for the most you can get for it. If NaNi can get more money with another team, go for it, if he can get better practice with another team, well.... all the better.
It's no different to what happens in other professional sports the only difference is no many footballers transfer 3 times in 1 month. Still I hope NaNi continues to improve and do well in tournaments. glhfgg. And plenty of people get mad at sports players who move elsewhere for better money and perhaps a better chance at winning a championship while dissing their former team.
this is what is wrong with fans. have you ever played sports? it sucks to play with a bad team. my basketball team was complete ($&*#$# at my school while my aau team was the best in the state. i HATED my schools team and anyone who was good transfered away from that school. this is what GOOD players do. they want to be around other good players.
if you dont play sports or suck at most things you do this concept is lost on you. players want to win. you shouldnt want to watch players that dont want to win. yes dream teams are stupid, yes they ruin the entertainment value of the rest of the league but sc2 is a 1 person deal. who cares if naniwa joins EG it doesnt matter because the current problem isnt that players join "only 1 team" (this is not the case) the problem is teams dont pay star players well
look at liquid. they lost huk, didnt pay him enough. sorry if you wana be with the big dogs you gota pay the big dog costs
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My take on the thing is that basically Nani felt lonely and like he didn't fit in. When people feel like that generally they are going to do something about it, so he switched teams. Ofc in order to motivate this he needed some rational basis, which turns the entire thing into a "they said i said"-scenario in which both sides subjectively think they are right and, objectively, both sides probably are to some extent. In a while they will probably be able to think more objectively of it and stuff will calm down.
Problem is when it goes public and everyone focuses on the rational side of things since that is what can be discussed. Which is why I think they shouldn't have said anything to begin with except for the "I felt lonely" part, which really can't start a discussion of the same magnitude...
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truthfully i don't care enough to lambast nani for what he said or has said. they are just words and aren't that heavy to me. i do think it's absurd that people are at least not conceding that he is, at best, confusing.
it's a listener's fault if they clearly mishear what is said or don't take the time to listen to the whole story, but this isn't the case with nani. he's got people defending him, talking about context and second languages and what he really meant, but it's clear in this interview that he implied some things, purposely or not, about coL that were disputed by at least 1 member of coL.
essentially saying "we'd have to know him" is retarded. it's like getting mad when someone doesn't understand an inside joke. outsiders aren't privy to the quirks of naniwa, and they shouldn't have to be when listening to an interview for the public. as for respect, no one is criticizing his play. they are criticizing him for putting his foot in his mouth (whether he actually did or not is always up for debate it seems). nani should be ok with it, right?
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On December 12 2011 02:28 careohx wrote:
Disregarding the Naniwa stuff I still dont like coL's approach to SC2.
Yeah, I've sorta gotten tired of all the "he said she said" argument but I have definitely settled on this. I've also decided that EVERYONE (players and managers alike) need to get a little PR training if they're going to be allowed to speak freely.
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On December 12 2011 02:32 ohokurwrong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 02:24 diophan wrote:On December 12 2011 02:20 Detri wrote:
meh, its a free market guys. You sell your "labour" for the most you can get for it. If NaNi can get more money with another team, go for it, if he can get better practice with another team, well.... all the better.
It's no different to what happens in other professional sports the only difference is no many footballers transfer 3 times in 1 month. Still I hope NaNi continues to improve and do well in tournaments. glhfgg. And plenty of people get mad at sports players who move elsewhere for better money and perhaps a better chance at winning a championship while dissing their former team. this is what is wrong with fans. have you ever played sports? it sucks to play with a bad team. my basketball team was complete ($&*#$# at my school while my aau team was the best in the state. i HATED my schools team and anyone who was good transfered away from that school. this is what GOOD players do. they want to be around other good players. if you dont play sports or suck at most things you do this concept is lost on you. players want to win. you shouldnt want to watch players that dont want to win. yes dream teams are stupid, yes they ruin the entertainment value of the rest of the league but sc2 is a 1 person deal. who cares if naniwa joins EG it doesnt matter because the current problem isnt that players join "only 1 team" (this is not the case) the problem is teams dont pay star players well look at liquid. they lost huk, didnt pay him enough. sorry if you wana be with the big dogs you gota pay the big dog costs
I was replying to someone who basically said "well sports players transfer teams for the most money so don't hate on Nani for doing the same thing". When in fact there is backlash by fans in both cases. Further, there are a ton of players in professional sports (I'm mostly just familiar with hockey) who don't just sell their teams out to the highest bidder or best team. Rick Nash, Jarome Iginla, Eric Staal, Shea Weber, etc. etc. Also it's a bit arrogant that you start your argument with "if you suck at most things you don't understand".
If you think it's fine to diss your previous team and switch to different teams frequently, go for it. But if you really don't understand why some people are pissed that he disses his old team and implicitly his teammates, I think you're trying a bit too hard to turn a blind eye.
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I dont think I totally get the catz comment, by naniwa. I dont know how things work at Col and this is clearly a bad situation with the multiple situations. But the way I see it is it is catz role on the team to get 1000+ viewers on his stream it how he advertises and contributes to the team. Naniwas purpose was to go out and win. Each player has a certain purpose to the team I feel yes the goal should be tournament focused but the reality is it isn't. Just my .02
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On December 12 2011 02:57 diophan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 02:32 ohokurwrong wrote:On December 12 2011 02:24 diophan wrote:On December 12 2011 02:20 Detri wrote:
meh, its a free market guys. You sell your "labour" for the most you can get for it. If NaNi can get more money with another team, go for it, if he can get better practice with another team, well.... all the better.
It's no different to what happens in other professional sports the only difference is no many footballers transfer 3 times in 1 month. Still I hope NaNi continues to improve and do well in tournaments. glhfgg. And plenty of people get mad at sports players who move elsewhere for better money and perhaps a better chance at winning a championship while dissing their former team. this is what is wrong with fans. have you ever played sports? it sucks to play with a bad team. my basketball team was complete ($&*#$# at my school while my aau team was the best in the state. i HATED my schools team and anyone who was good transfered away from that school. this is what GOOD players do. they want to be around other good players. if you dont play sports or suck at most things you do this concept is lost on you. players want to win. you shouldnt want to watch players that dont want to win. yes dream teams are stupid, yes they ruin the entertainment value of the rest of the league but sc2 is a 1 person deal. who cares if naniwa joins EG it doesnt matter because the current problem isnt that players join "only 1 team" (this is not the case) the problem is teams dont pay star players well look at liquid. they lost huk, didnt pay him enough. sorry if you wana be with the big dogs you gota pay the big dog costs I was replying to someone who basically said "well sports players transfer teams for the most money so don't hate on Nani for doing the same thing". When in fact there is backlash by fans in both cases. Further, there are a ton of players in professional sports (I'm mostly just familiar with hockey) who don't just sell their teams out to the highest bidder or best team. Rick Nash, Jarome Iginla, Eric Staal, Shea Weber, etc. etc. Also it's a bit arrogant that you start your argument with "if you suck at most things you don't understand". If you think it's fine to diss your previous team and switch to different teams frequently, go for it. But if you really don't understand why some people are pissed that he disses his old team and implicitly his teammates, I think you're trying a bit too hard to turn a blind eye.
most people just are not competitive. its surprising to see starcraft so popular since 1 its a hard to play game that requires THINKING and 2 its competition based.... naniwa wants to win and when he wins he wants to get paid. catz wont ever win anything ever and so he shouldnt even be at 1/6th what naniwa makes. naniwa needed to have coL make him more popular and stream games so he can not only win tournys but be popular and make more money. coL didnt and doesnt support talent isnt this obvious with stephano as well?
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On December 12 2011 03:02 Remfire wrote:
I dont think I totally get the catz comment, by naniwa. I dont know how things work at Col and this is clearly a bad situation with the multiple situations. But the way I see it is it is catz role on the team to get 1000+ viewers on his stream it how he advertises and contributes to the team. Naniwas purpose was to go out and win. Each player has a certain purpose to the team I feel yes the goal should be tournament focused but the reality is it isn't. Just my .02
You realize you just explained the reasons that NaNi decided to join Quantic to yourself? He commented that the "reality" at Complexity wasn't one that he agreed with and sought a team that would reward him for results. I'd be interested to hear if Quantic plans to reward players based on their results as well? They have Destiny after all, who is like the Catz of Quantic...so I think that this reason is really secondary to him wanting to be around non-Korean players. He also preferred the Startale house more than the MVP house. These are intangible things and really don't show anything negative about the player or either teams.
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On December 12 2011 03:06 ohokurwrong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 02:57 diophan wrote:On December 12 2011 02:32 ohokurwrong wrote:On December 12 2011 02:24 diophan wrote:On December 12 2011 02:20 Detri wrote:
meh, its a free market guys. You sell your "labour" for the most you can get for it. If NaNi can get more money with another team, go for it, if he can get better practice with another team, well.... all the better.
It's no different to what happens in other professional sports the only difference is no many footballers transfer 3 times in 1 month. Still I hope NaNi continues to improve and do well in tournaments. glhfgg. And plenty of people get mad at sports players who move elsewhere for better money and perhaps a better chance at winning a championship while dissing their former team. this is what is wrong with fans. have you ever played sports? it sucks to play with a bad team. my basketball team was complete ($&*#$# at my school while my aau team was the best in the state. i HATED my schools team and anyone who was good transfered away from that school. this is what GOOD players do. they want to be around other good players. if you dont play sports or suck at most things you do this concept is lost on you. players want to win. you shouldnt want to watch players that dont want to win. yes dream teams are stupid, yes they ruin the entertainment value of the rest of the league but sc2 is a 1 person deal. who cares if naniwa joins EG it doesnt matter because the current problem isnt that players join "only 1 team" (this is not the case) the problem is teams dont pay star players well look at liquid. they lost huk, didnt pay him enough. sorry if you wana be with the big dogs you gota pay the big dog costs I was replying to someone who basically said "well sports players transfer teams for the most money so don't hate on Nani for doing the same thing". When in fact there is backlash by fans in both cases. Further, there are a ton of players in professional sports (I'm mostly just familiar with hockey) who don't just sell their teams out to the highest bidder or best team. Rick Nash, Jarome Iginla, Eric Staal, Shea Weber, etc. etc. Also it's a bit arrogant that you start your argument with "if you suck at most things you don't understand". If you think it's fine to diss your previous team and switch to different teams frequently, go for it. But if you really don't understand why some people are pissed that he disses his old team and implicitly his teammates, I think you're trying a bit too hard to turn a blind eye. most people just are not competitive. its surprising to see starcraft so popular since 1 its a hard to play game that requires THINKING and 2 its competition based.... naniwa wants to win and when he wins he wants to get paid. catz wont ever win anything ever and so he shouldnt even be at 1/6th what naniwa makes. naniwa needed to have coL make him more popular and stream games so he can not only win tournys but be popular and make more money. coL didnt and doesnt support talent isnt this obvious with stephano as well?
Did we ever learned what really happened with Stephano's contract breach? Last I heard all the smart people were just saying to wait and see cause we didn't know what was going on.
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Actually when you think about it, he started streaming shortly after joining coL, probably them that made him stream when they are cleary that into it.
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On December 12 2011 03:10 justinpal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 03:02 Remfire wrote:
I dont think I totally get the catz comment, by naniwa. I dont know how things work at Col and this is clearly a bad situation with the multiple situations. But the way I see it is it is catz role on the team to get 1000+ viewers on his stream it how he advertises and contributes to the team. Naniwas purpose was to go out and win. Each player has a certain purpose to the team I feel yes the goal should be tournament focused but the reality is it isn't. Just my .02 You realize you just explained the reasons that NaNi decided to join Quantic to yourself? He commented that the "reality" at Complexity wasn't one that he agreed with and sought a team that would reward him for results. I'd be interested to hear if Quantic plans to reward players based on their results as well? They have Destiny after all, who is like the Catz of Quantic...so I think that this reason is really secondary to him wanting to be around non-Korean players. He also preferred the Startale house more than the MVP house. These are intangible things and really don't show anything negative about the player or either teams.
I think you make a really good point about the rewarding for winning. Do other teams do that, I am curious as well if that is a perk they through in to ensure Nani to there team. As for the comment about intangible things, that really dont show anything negative about the player or either teams, I feel that when a team is making comments on reddit and a player has to tell his side there is a lot of negativity there and a lack of professional finesse.
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On December 12 2011 01:21 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +. ofc they don't care the same way if he wins a big event than if i have a bunch of viewers on my stream. They do care the same way, just not to the same extent. It's ridiculous to think that NaNi thought that he had exactly quantified the amount that Complexity values a tournament placement and the amount they value stream viewers and determined that a 2nd place finish in a tournament is exactly equal to 5000 stream viewers (and then equalized salaries based on one instance?). There are so many things wrong with that interpretation that it's absolutely absurd to entertain it for even a second. To the extent that that interpretation is absurd, the other interpretation is obvious: the type of value tournament placements and stream viewers have is similar. Both are a lot of exposure. Complexity values exposure. The difference between the two is that one requires a lot more skill at the game than the other. We all know that NaNi values skill and results over everything. So NaNi values the tournament placement and he doesn't value the stream viewers. This is all completely obvious to anyone with the slightest clue about NaNi's priorities and how teams like Complexity work. To think that catz's salary compared to naniwa's salary is relevant to nani's statement is the incorrect line of thinking. Everyone has realized how absurd it is and then turned that on NaNi, saying he's absurd and bullshitting us to say that. Stop for a second and check back to NaNi's words and realize that they are ambiguous and not exclusively indicating this absurd interpretation. Yes, they leave that interpretation open but they also leave open a completely reasonable and normal interpretation. Have some fucking respect and give him the benefit of the doubt.
Nani hasn't earned the benefit of the doubt. If anything he's earned the exact opposite by his actions on diff teams, what we've heard from diff ex-teammates and from his actions in tournies.
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On December 12 2011 03:18 Remfire wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 03:10 justinpal wrote:On December 12 2011 03:02 Remfire wrote:
I dont think I totally get the catz comment, by naniwa. I dont know how things work at Col and this is clearly a bad situation with the multiple situations. But the way I see it is it is catz role on the team to get 1000+ viewers on his stream it how he advertises and contributes to the team. Naniwas purpose was to go out and win. Each player has a certain purpose to the team I feel yes the goal should be tournament focused but the reality is it isn't. Just my .02 You realize you just explained the reasons that NaNi decided to join Quantic to yourself? He commented that the "reality" at Complexity wasn't one that he agreed with and sought a team that would reward him for results. I'd be interested to hear if Quantic plans to reward players based on their results as well? They have Destiny after all, who is like the Catz of Quantic...so I think that this reason is really secondary to him wanting to be around non-Korean players. He also preferred the Startale house more than the MVP house. These are intangible things and really don't show anything negative about the player or either teams. I think you make a really good point about the rewarding for winning. Do other teams do that, I am curious as well if that is a perk they through in to ensure Nani to there team. As for the comment about intangible things, that really dont show anything negative about the player or either teams, I feel that when a team is making comments on reddit and a player has to tell his side there is a lot of negativity there and a lack of professional finesse.
Ah, I have to confess that I don't really browse reddit very often. Then, you may be right about the negativity.
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gratz to both hopefully that's naniwa last team
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On December 11 2011 21:25 Paladia wrote:
It is quite apparent that Naniwa is telling the truth about CoL valuing exposure over results. With players such Catz, drewbie, minigun, trimaster etc. The exposure-type of players seems to be on very good terms with the management.
The results-oriented players such as Naniwa or Stephano however, as the facts show, does not work well with the CoL management.
This is a pretty terrible post:
- Do you know why Stephano left CoL?
- Why did QxG pick up Destiny? Because he is going to win GSL?
- What makes Drewbie/Minigun/Trimaster "etc" exposure-type players? Is everyone who isn't challenging for 1st place at every tourny suddenly an exposure-type? Is every team expected to have 3-5 of these players then? QxG only has 2, including nani...
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On December 11 2011 14:44 Madder wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 13:56 On_Slaught wrote:On December 11 2011 12:45 JaBrOnI wrote:
This is exactly what I like about Naniwa. All the play and never the advertising.
That's how a professional player's attitude should be. Not just about the money and hype. Why can't they be about winning AND advertising? Plenty of players are great a both. Naniwa is only good at one. Why can't they just be about one? And the most important one too.
B/c this is a business. The money that he is getting doesn't fall from the fucking sky. The sooner people realize this the sooner SC2 will grow into its true potential.
On December 11 2011 14:33 LunaSea wrote:
Naniwa fighting ~ !
One of the greatest overall Starcraft II players !
@On_Slaugh : Like what player ? The only good player (player that won tournaments) that I can think of is Idra, and the only reason he has so many viewers is because he's bad mannered most of the time.
Pretty much any top player. Huk, Neastea, Puma, Hero. Just be somebody good who isn't socially inept the second they put a camera in front of your face.
If you want better examples, look at BW. That is how it should be done. They really build up the player personalities.
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Where is the actual controversy in this discussion?
Naniwa is apparently switching teams because he wants to be on a team which is more results-focussed and less popularity/business focussed. And play with different teammates, as a side-effect. coLs statement also emphasizes a difference between naniwas and coLs philosophy. The resulting split seems to be a perfectly reasonable action from both parties.
Is the need to randomly hate on players/orgs so high that people even do it without any reason?
Did tv suspend some popular reality soap or wth is going on here..?
gl to coL and naniwa btw...
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On December 12 2011 03:37 On_Slaught wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 14:44 Madder wrote:On December 11 2011 13:56 On_Slaught wrote:On December 11 2011 12:45 JaBrOnI wrote:
This is exactly what I like about Naniwa. All the play and never the advertising.
That's how a professional player's attitude should be. Not just about the money and hype. Why can't they be about winning AND advertising? Plenty of players are great a both. Naniwa is only good at one. Why can't they just be about one? And the most important one too. B/c this is a business. The money that he is getting doesn't fall from the fucking sky. The sooner people realize this the sooner SC2 will grow into its true potential.
Actually we need more good players that have fans because they are awesome players not because they talk alot and show up on shows/commercials. You know, like in regular sports.
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United States23455 Posts
Nothing but respect for Naniwa. It really looks like he made the right decision.If he wants to be a great player, he can't be sitting in the MVP house with no one to practice with. Ultimately it comes down to the fact that being on quantic he will get more practice and be happier, not to mention the fact that it seems he will get more money. I dont see how people can argue naniwa's decision.
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EPT
