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Hey guys... now that the Season 2 finals are now over, and we've seen the NASL Semi Open tournament using the 9 new TPW maps, I want to open it up a bit for community discussion.
I've asked all the players from the semi open their thoughts, but I want to hear community thoughts and feedback on the maps. This will be influential in our decision as to which maps we will be adding for Season 3.
Things to discussion:
--> balance changes that can / should be made on the maps (be specific)! --> which maps are good, why? --> which maps are bad, why? (be specific)
And, if you had to pick 3 maps from the list to be in NASL Season 3, which 3 would you choose and why. I've included the entire NASL Semi Open replay pack as well, so you guys can check the games out.
Map Pool [all the NA maps should be published by IRONMAN] [12:00:31 PM] Mereel: Updated Map List - Map overview images | Map thread links -
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0N1XZ.jpg) Discuss
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I'm having such a hard time keeping track off all these maps tourneys are putting out. I wish we could keep them consisten across the board for major tournaments, Not just for viewers but for players too. It can't be easy to practice on such a wide-spread amount of them.
That said new maps are ALWAYS a good thing. It brings life into the scene and makes things fresh. It can also show different play-styles we've not seen before.
So: My favorite maps from those shown: Concrete Dreams. Lunar Station. Overgrown and Artifice all look good from my protoss perspective. It's hard to get a good idea of the map without seeing them played on, or playing on them myself though. So that's just after looking over the overviews.
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Nice to see more community maps in tournaments!
Ohana looks like it's easy to prevent a Zerg from taking the third by occupying that area between nat and third, but I'm sure someone better than be can chime in on that.
Emerald Jungle looks like a blizzard map. You might have to fiddle with the spawns; cross-only. It's pretty, though.
Damage INC is pretty! Is that a wall of minerals? Interesting concept, how many minerals are in that line?
Artifice looks blizzard-y, like Emerald Jungle, because of the shared fourth. It's also just kind of bland-looking
The other maps look pretty good.
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Preliminary impressions from just looking at the pics:
TPW Concrete Dreams seems terran favored in close positions. Especially if terran is ccw from his opponent. TPW Lunar Station I don't like gold expansions with rocks. Otherwise looks fine. TPW Ohana Looking good. TPW Emerald Jungle horizontal close pos looks too close. TPW Overgrown vertical close pos looks too close. TPW Damage Inc looks weird. Which are the spawn points? None of them makes sense. TPW Odyssey Far too narrow. TPW Artifice Looks OK. TPW One Must Fall Terran pushes through the high ground middle might be too strong, but I'm not sure.
Some of these maps look ok if it's forced cross position, but that's pretty bad map design.
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Just REMOVE GOLDS expansions, all of them, are not balanced!
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This is why I included the replay pack, so you can see over 100 games on the maps!~
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remove golds, pick macro maps, profit~~
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your Country52797 Posts
Ohana for obvious reasons. Odyssey- may need some tweaks though. Artifice, because it just seems... good.
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On December 07 2011 10:46 Belha wrote: Just REMOVE GOLDS expansions, all of them, are not balanced!
Agree.
GSL dont have Gold bases anymore, WCG wont have gold bases. Gold bases are the past, too mule oriented.
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Ohana looks cool. Im no player though so I dont how it is for them.. but I want them to play it for me
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- TPW Concrete Dreams Too easy to hold 4 bases as Protoss and Terran
- TPW Lunar Station No real complaint or compliment for this map
- TPW Ohana It's like Bel-shir beach, Zerg favored. Too many paths and counter attack opportunities
- TPW Emerald Jungle Too open, like the tileset though.
- TPW Overgrown Really love this map. A terran can't siege the middle of the map(like Shakuras) too effectively, The only gripe I have with the map is at the left and right middle those paths are a little overboard
- TPW Damage Inc If it's left-right spawns.. my god no thanks, if top left bottom right, it looks ok.. But it just looks like a bad map overall
- TPW Odyssey Really small map, don't like
- TPW Artifice Nice looking map, not too open, but not too closed up either. I think it's a keeper
- TPW One Must FallUnsure about this map.. It's REALLY big, REALLY cluttered which makes it look really bad, I have nothing to say about the map about balance, but it looks really hard to get past 2 bases as Terran or Protoss.
That's all of my opinions of the map.
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As a personal challenge, I'm going to watch all the replays played on one of the maps and do a detailed writeup about it. Is there a particular map that's really lacking in feedback?
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
On December 07 2011 11:28 Ruscour wrote: As a personal challenge, I'm going to watch all the replays played on one of the maps and do a detailed writeup about it. Is there a particular map that's really lacking in feedback?
The starcraft community needs more people like you :D
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honestly, i think you should pose this question solely to actual players and mapmakers, not the community. i think any contribution from the community would be a serious waste of time. this includes my own comments since i pick maps based on how pretty they look, and have no idea what a balanced map actually is even though i play at a masters level.
that being said i like ohana, emerald jungle and artifice.
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On December 07 2011 11:28 Ruscour wrote: As a personal challenge, I'm going to watch all the replays played on one of the maps and do a detailed writeup about it. Is there a particular map that's really lacking in feedback?
I haven't got much feedback aside from Ohana and Lunar Station
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Sweden33719 Posts
A general theme seems to be too many expansions too close together... I like mech, but it seems a bit unfair that mech can get 4 base for free every game and you can do nothing about it.
Also kinda annoying when vsing zerg and they get 4 free bases (ergo Daybreak, tho I like daybreak cuz I like being on lots of bases)
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Provide a poll please. How else are you going to read through thousands of posts?
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On December 07 2011 12:40 TheBomb wrote: Provide a poll please. How else are you going to read through thousands of posts?
I'm actually going to read every single post...
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I really don't see why NASL feels the need to have unique maps. Really, just take the general ones that other tournaments use and save your players the headache. NASL is already seeming to have a hard enough time getting enough top tier players to keep viewers interested with the koreans withdrawing and all. I really think that more top end players will reconsider playing in the NASL if they have to play on random maps that no other tournament will ever use
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On December 07 2011 13:00 hunts wrote: I really don't see why NASL feels the need to have unique maps. Really, just take the general ones that other tournaments use and save your players the headache. NASL is already seeming to have a hard enough time getting enough top tier players to keep viewers interested with the koreans withdrawing and all. I really think that more top end players will reconsider playing in the NASL if they have to play on random maps that no other tournament will ever use
Every tournament is getting new maps. The current map pool is incredibly stale and having every tournament use the same maps gets a little stale to watch, tbh
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Any chance to release the semi-open replays, so we can see how the maps play out for competitive matches?
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They should be fine as long as golds are replaced with blues and the 4 player maps have cross spawns enforced.
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On December 07 2011 13:10 Primadog wrote: Any chance to release the semi-open replays, so we can see how the maps play out for competitive matches?
Top of page 1
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On December 07 2011 13:04 Dexington wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 13:00 hunts wrote: I really don't see why NASL feels the need to have unique maps. Really, just take the general ones that other tournaments use and save your players the headache. NASL is already seeming to have a hard enough time getting enough top tier players to keep viewers interested with the koreans withdrawing and all. I really think that more top end players will reconsider playing in the NASL if they have to play on random maps that no other tournament will ever use Every tournament is getting new maps. The current map pool is incredibly stale and having every tournament use the same maps gets a little stale to watch, tbh
Now go tell that to the pro players who can prepare for a certain set of maps that will be played in just about every major tournament, or they can prepare for a different set of maps that will only be played in NASL. I'm a fan of NASL would would like to see them do better and get bigger, but the things they need to work on is getting koreans back in their tournament, and their production, not having a unique map pool that might deter good players from wanting to play in their tournament.
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I can't go through the replays to inspect. I did watch these maps develop over the last few months as they developed. Here are my thoughts, though temper these concerns with evidence from the replays:
Concrete Dreams was always intended to be a better Terminus, and I think it is. I feel good about this one replacing Terminus. Concerns have been raised that Protoss and Terran can expand to 4 bases too safely, but with the multiple attack paths, air harass vulnerability, and the option of zerg to expand to far corners of the map to create a favorable base-trade scenario, I think it has a very good chance of being balanced. This is the first of my three picks.
Lunar Station is an interesting case, assuming the gold bases are converted to standard blue 2-gas bases. Looking at the normal 3rd base, the one not currently a gold, it's situated like Xel'Naga Caverns, minus the back entrance and highground overlooking the minerals. I fear it is too safe, and would lead to turtly 3 and four base games. On a map like Concrete Dreams this is the whole point. Here, is it a good thing? I think the map is as good as the Antiga Shipyards -- better, perhaps -- but without some outstanding thing that makes me go "this map needs to be played!", I can't really see it grabbing one of the picks.
Ohana is, in my opinion, the best of those listed maps for 2 player spawns. Accessing the third expo is interesting for attacker or defender, and, kind of like Tal'Darim Altar's 4th, there is a place for the zerg to expand to if their efforts are blocked. You expand right up to your opponent's main, or you contest the high-ground middle expansions. This one takes the second of my picks.
I would need to see Emerald Jungle in action to see if it's layout is too turtly, and if it sets itself apart somehow. To those in the know, if it does, I quite like the map.
Overgrown visually looks awesome. Again, I feel a bit ignorant since I haven't watch enough reps, but it looks quite zerg favored, between the difficult third and the openness. If it does work out to be balanced, I'd like to see it.
I fear Damage Inc will become an almost exclusively 4-gate map as Tal'Darim Altar has because of the non-ramped entrance. It's visually pretty, but noisy, and am afraid it might be obnoxious to observe, both for the players and for the viewers. If not, fantastic. Could it be a great map? Yes. But I can't see it right now. I'm worried, again that it would become too turtly with 4 relatively easy bases. In most games that means macroing up for 12 or so dull minutes and then one side crushing the other. Not true for the highest level play, but I fear for the viewer experience for those games not at the tippy top. I really like the layout from the natural on, though -- if the natural was the main, thus removing a base, these concerns would be eliminated (though the mineral ramp blocker might need to change).
My wrists hurt, so I must stop being so detailed. My last pick goes to Artifice. Visually impressive with a refined layout, and memorable. Perhaps the best map of them all.
Hope that helps at all! Again, if replays so a different story than my concerns, then disregard my concerns.
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On December 07 2011 13:26 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 13:04 Dexington wrote:On December 07 2011 13:00 hunts wrote: I really don't see why NASL feels the need to have unique maps. Really, just take the general ones that other tournaments use and save your players the headache. NASL is already seeming to have a hard enough time getting enough top tier players to keep viewers interested with the koreans withdrawing and all. I really think that more top end players will reconsider playing in the NASL if they have to play on random maps that no other tournament will ever use Every tournament is getting new maps. The current map pool is incredibly stale and having every tournament use the same maps gets a little stale to watch, tbh Now go tell that to the pro players who can prepare for a certain set of maps that will be played in just about every major tournament, or they can prepare for a different set of maps that will only be played in NASL. I'm a fan of NASL would would like to see them do better and get bigger, but the things they need to work on is getting koreans back in their tournament, and their production, not having a unique map pool that might deter good players from wanting to play in their tournament.
I think players can learn 3 new maps for a chance at $50,000
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Those maps look really good, except for overgrown. For me it looks like it is far too difficult to take a third vZ, and secondly, I'm not sure about distances, but if T spread a few tanks between bases at 8 and 10, is it possible to shut down two expansions at once? (apologies I haven't watched the replays yet as I've been at work) If that's the case then to me that looks kinda broken.
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On December 07 2011 13:44 Dexington wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 13:26 hunts wrote:On December 07 2011 13:04 Dexington wrote:On December 07 2011 13:00 hunts wrote: I really don't see why NASL feels the need to have unique maps. Really, just take the general ones that other tournaments use and save your players the headache. NASL is already seeming to have a hard enough time getting enough top tier players to keep viewers interested with the koreans withdrawing and all. I really think that more top end players will reconsider playing in the NASL if they have to play on random maps that no other tournament will ever use Every tournament is getting new maps. The current map pool is incredibly stale and having every tournament use the same maps gets a little stale to watch, tbh Now go tell that to the pro players who can prepare for a certain set of maps that will be played in just about every major tournament, or they can prepare for a different set of maps that will only be played in NASL. I'm a fan of NASL would would like to see them do better and get bigger, but the things they need to work on is getting koreans back in their tournament, and their production, not having a unique map pool that might deter good players from wanting to play in their tournament. I think players can learn 3 new maps for a chance at $50,000
maybe, I mean this is just my opinnion, and I want to see NASL do better annd keep going to become the american version of GSL (since MLG is kindna its own thing schedule wise) but I really feel like when every other tournament has a set of maps they use, and then another tournament tries to be unnique with their own maps, players have to choose if they wannt to really put in the work and practice on that tournaments exclusive maps, or for the maps for every other tournament out there.
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On December 07 2011 13:24 Primadog wrote: I'm blind.
wut.
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On December 07 2011 12:23 dAPhREAk wrote: honestly, i think you should pose this question solely to actual players and mapmakers, not the community. i think any contribution from the community would be a serious waste of time. this includes my own comments since i pick maps based on how pretty they look, and have no idea what a balanced map actually is even though i play at a masters level.
that being said i like ohana, emerald jungle and artifice.
I have asked players, and am talking with the map-makers... I want to take feedback from all 3 groups.
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I am having a 50/50 feeling about having 100% non ladder maps. While it focuses players into customs you take away from the Ladder especially with a map pool like this. Where you can have very different styles cause the maps are pretty good. I hope it ends up working out, with some extra support from blizzard the whole situation would be just a lot easier.
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Odyssey was always one of my favorites. I've seen nothing but great games on it. It's simple for gameplay and concept. But I do think the golds should be removed.
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Ohana looks absolutely gorgeous...
honestly, i think you should pose this question solely to actual players and mapmakers, not the community. i think any contribution from the community would be a serious waste of time. this includes my own comments since i pick maps based on how pretty they look, and have no idea what a balanced map actually is even though i play at a masters level.
The community provides the money. Our opinion should be the first priority.
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At first glance I really like Overgrown, it seems like a new and improved version of Shakruas. On shakruas there was the problem of the natrual being to easily defended which is fixed on this map. The three attack paths and the open middle make zerg counter attacks a lot more threatening which moves the games away from basicly being one strong push through the middle of the map in TvZ. One problem with this map however seems to be that that the 3rd is to hard for Terran and Protoss to secure vs Zerg. Judging from the replays Overgrown looks to be pretty balanced in TvP and produced some pretty good games in that MU.
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On Map Size: i have seen quite a few comments on the size of the maps. so i wanted to provide some numbers on map size & rush distances for comparison because i feel like sometimes images can be misleading because of their textures/doodads.
all the numbers are analyzer unit numbers for maps with multiple spawns, longest and shortest distances were taken
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0N1XZ.jpg)
I agree that some of the maps are fairly large. but none of them are out of the ordinary, imho, when compared to other maps currently used in competitive play.
There is indeed the possibility of doing some changes to the maps, like removing golds, depending on the feedback.
On FPS Issues: NullCurrent also did did a little benchmarking workwhich can be found here. He ran the tests on a non highend system to make fps drops more visible.
a little summary of the results: + Show Spoiler +First out is Metalopolis, to give us some reference to the numbers later on: Average FPS: 32 Lowest FPS: 23, next to the LoS blockers in the main + Show Spoiler +Then a map which has lots of doodads and one you can expect to have low FPS: TPW Concrete Dreams:Average FPS: 31 Lowest FPS: 25, next to some fires + Show Spoiler +An older map which has less doodads than most newer maps: TPW One Must Fall: Average FPS: 30 Lowest FPS: 25, but only when the camera is "inside" a god-ray which is a very small portion of the map otherwise the lowest was 27, right over the LoS blockers on the map. + Show Spoiler +Now a map which has had some complaints about lag: TPW Ohana: Average FPS: 31 Lowest FPS: 23, in the middle caused by the numbers of trees there + Show Spoiler +TPW OvergrownAverage FPS: 30 Lowest FPS: 27, northern part of the center + Show Spoiler +TPW Lunar StationAverage FPS: 31 Lowest FPS: 27, in the middle over pipes + Show Spoiler +TPW Emerald JungleAverage FPS: 33 Lowest FPS: 23, trees and waterfalls + Show Spoiler +TPW Damage IncAverage FPS: 30 Lowest FPS: 24, map edge with lots of generators and some fires + Show Spoiler +Note: This picture is wrong, but the map was the latest and the circled areas are the correct ones, but on the new map ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KiTKsl.jpg)
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Why did you decide to choose from TPW maps and not look at maps from the other map making teams? There are some very good maps that are being overlooked.
My favorite maps here are:
1) Artifice 2) Ohana 3) One must fall
Great stuff btw. I'm very happy to see new maps in a major tournament. This will be a big reason why I tune in to watch the NASL.
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Italy12246 Posts
Assuming the spawns for Damage Inc are bottom left and top right, i feel like it should have a ramp leading to the main. Non-ramp maps just make a for frustrating games in pvp for both players and spectactors imo, while maps with a ramp allow for a wider range of strategies to be used which is nice; the other matchups are unchanged so i think it would be a nice change.
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The problem is, I don't think 99% of people replying to this will look all 100 replays on these maps, and not everyone on TL has adequate knowledge to judge the map balance. So... new maps is great, but they should be evaluated by competent people, not by random replies on TL
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Fishgle, I think the three maps selected here could become a part of the UMP. Hopefully. Add the ones chosen here to those the favorites from TLmapping contest and use that as the foundation for the UMP.
For instance, let's say Cloud Kingdom, Sanctuary, and Haven's Lagoon are recognized by players and the community as the cream of the crop from the TLMC. Combine them with Artifice, Ohana, and Damage Inc, and you have 6 fresh maps for the pool. Add in some more familiar maps (Shattered Temple, Antiga Shipyard, Tal'Darim Altar, Crevasse) and we have a pretty epic map pool, yeah? We might need some more familiar ones in there, or maybe one less TPW with one more from the TLMC, but you get the idea.
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TPW Concrete Dreams
A rush distances of 125 is too short. (Steppes of War has 130 by comparison.) I'd say ~140 (Xel'naga) is a healthy number to aim at. 4 "free" bases bodes for very passive game play. Looks hard to FE on for PvZ. No real flanking options for a close position tank push.
TPW Lunar Station
A terran players dream: A gold base, close to the main, in the push direction. And make it 1 gas and rocks just so other races don't have any use for it. Other than that, looks fine.
TPW Ohana
Looks great actually. My favorite from the TL/Blizzard contest. My only complaint would be the defensive Xel'naga towers.
TPW Emerald Jungle
Looks decent if it's cross pos only, but I don't think you should make maps with forced positions deliberately. It's bad design. Force spawn points in blizzard maps are attempts to salvage imbalanced maps. Other than that, the high ground forward position almost covers 5 bases which encourages boring turtley play. I don't mind the gold too much since it's not in the push direction. It would be better without it though.
TPW Overgrown
I take it it's a remake of shakuras with similar forced spawns? Might not be so bad. I like shakuras except for the late game map split scenario which this maps seems to have fixed. It might be a bit too large though.
TPW Damage Inc
Two separate forced cross positions? The SW/NE spawns looks bad. No natural ramp which is bad for PvP and a "free" 3rd is kinda boring. SW/NE positions is slightly better, but what's with the random mineral line block? It seems like it's only purpose is to give tanks protection when sieging the natural. Also you get 3 easiliy defended bases for the prize of 1 when you take the other spawn points. Just a weird map.
TPW Odyssey
Narrow. If terran only manages to push the small distance between the two watch towers, he'd be in a very, very advantageous position.
TPW Artifice
Many easy expos but also very open. I'd give it a shot. Might be too close rush distance though.
TPW One Must Fall
Looks a lot like Jungle Basin and might have the same problems (terran pushes through the middle). Not sure though.
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On December 08 2011 05:43 VoirDire wrote: TPW Concrete Dreams
A rush distances of 125 is too short. (Steppes of War has 130 by comparison.) I'd say ~140 (Xel'naga) is a healthy number to aim at. 4 "free" bases bodes for very passive game play. Looks hard to FE on for PvZ. No real flanking options for a close position tank push.
I hope this does not come as too defensive, as I made (most of) the map. But I feel like I have to correct a few things, still if you think something in my reasoning is wrong, tell me, that will make me a better mapmaker (I hope).
Rush Distance The rush distance is not so short, Lefix ran the analyzer without support for the large rocks, so the rocks are not taken into consideration at all. So the rush distances are rock-less rush distances.
Rush distance close: 116 AU Far: 142 AU (natural to natural, main to main is not so important imho, as the main is just a normal standard main, it is not placed like on Scrap Station) (And no, not Astronomical Units, Analyzer Units, 2 AU = 1 supply depot side)
Xel'Naga Caverns has 118 in natural to natural rush distance, so I don't think that is a problem at all, because the natural choke is much narrower in Concrete Dreams compared to Xel'Naga Caverns.
4 "Free" bases
I don't think the bases are really *that* free. Look at Terminus, there you have a free third (if it is the variant without the rocks), which is easier to protect than the 3rd on Concrete Dreams.
Look at the analyzer: + Show Spoiler [Analyzer] + If you go to 4 bases, you have a quite large area to protect, unless the rocks are not broken down. If the rocks are broken down, you have to traverse a lot of terrain to move from your preferred "staging area" outside the main-hugging 4th to the backdoor for your third. Still, the third is safer than on most maps.
Fast Expand as P You can fast expand in PvZ, not too sure how viable it is, but you cannot wall so you protect the 3rd without being very vulnerable. + Show Spoiler [Forge FE walloff Size example] +
Finally I won't comment really on the tank push, as that is something I'll have to look at replays to really determine. I have striven to try to make tank-pushes possible, but still defendable. Not sure if I succeeded.
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Rather than comment on the balance of the maps, seeing as I have not personally played on any of them, I think there is a more important point to be made regarding the NASL's map pool system. I propose a radical revamping of the map pool system for the NASL which will allow them to accommodate maps from other tournaments and also a diverse pool of other maps. Spoiler for length.
+ Show Spoiler +The current most widely adopted system is to have a relatively tight map pool which gets a lot of work, and players are given the ability to remove specific maps. However this means that the same maps generally appear over and over again, and furthermore it means that the tournament must decide between having unique maps which players must practice for specially, and having maps which many prominent players are familiar with. Also an important consideration is the need to have a system to work in new maps gradually. A single new map added to a veto system has a tremendous impact on the sort of maps players will play on over and over again in the tournament.
Another system is to have a "loser's pick" system where the loser of the previous game in a series decides the next game in the series. However once again this free pick requires a small map pool since both players need to be prepared to play on all the maps, and has many of the shortcomings of the veto system.
I propose a new system which solves the problems of the two above systems, although it is a bit more complicated, it has a variety of systemic advantages. A "pick" system will allow a very large map pool, and adding new maps to the pool has less of an immediate impact, as it will appear less frequently unless it is highly favored. This allows tournaments to work in new maps, and simultaneously give players the control to choose maps they are comfortable with. Korean pros can pick the classic maps, which would naturally remain unless they have reason to be removed. And players who want to play something specific, or more novel, or have a map-specific build nobody has seen before get the chance to demonstrate it on the new maps.
OK here's the whole system. The tournament releases a map pool of a large number of maps. The number of maps will be greater than the 8-12 or so maps on ladder or in tournaments at any given time. Each player submits a list of maps which can be any length they wish. These are maps they prefer. To determine the maps used in the series, the two players' lists are compared. A map which appears on either player's list is added into the pool of maps which could be used in the series. Maps which appear on both players lists are agreed upon as being preferred, and will be randomly selected between until the list of agreed-upon maps is exhausted, at which point the set of maps which are only on one of either player's lists will be selected from randomly.
As for map selection "strategy" mechanics, all possible selection styles are valid, and are accounted for. In general, the more maps a player picks, the more control they have over the maps chosen, but their control becomes less specific to a particular map. Choose too many and their lists will agree and the short list will select the entire match's pool. The player who chooses fewer maps has less control over which maps are played if the two lists don't agree, but has more control over which specific maps when they do. The conservative option to pick and practice on an extremely tight pool of maps will work well for them if the other player includes those maps in their picks, which is more likely if they want to spam the pool by including nearly all of them to try to throw off the more conservative player. If both players choose large numbers of maps, the map selection process will be highly random, which is desirable since both players indicated they are prepared to play on a wide variety of maps. And lastly, if both players are tightly conservative and select very few maps, then the total random list of maps is very small. If both players select four maps, then there is a random pool of only eight maps, assuming they don't agree.
There are a lot of ways this system might be modified to accommodate specific needs of a tournament. For example, tournaments may elect to have "map seeds" which will always be considered even if neither player chooses them. Tournaments which want to give the players choice can let the loser pick from among a set of maps of their choosing. Tournaments might require a minimum or maximum number of picks, or could even implement a multiple-tiered pick system, or allow vetoes as well as picks. I think these are unnecessary, but it's a possibility.
The important detail is that a large tournament map pool is cut down to size by player choice, and maps which both players wish to play on are more likely to be played on, allowing a more organic evolution of the map pool as maps fall in and out of favor with players. Maps which are never played on can be phased out to make room for new maps. Players who want to stick to conservative, well-known maps will submit the maps they want, as will players who have developed something map-specific or want to play on a less stale map. This is perfectly general to any number of maps in the pool. And most importantly, it accommodates both tournaments which want to introduce new maps and players who want to play on familiar maps at the same time.
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I just want to say that I agree with no gold maps.
People who CAN take gold bases are usually in a lead, and gold bases just put them into such a bigger lead that they are almost guaranteed to win if they hold it for 5 mins.
This is not good for SC2, comebacks are very important to spectators.
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Keep going with the feedback! It's much appreciated!
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On behalf of the TPW team, whichever maps are accepted, and if they have gold bases, they will be replaced with normal blue bases. You can be sure of this.
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On December 07 2011 13:04 Dexington wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 13:00 hunts wrote: I really don't see why NASL feels the need to have unique maps. Really, just take the general ones that other tournaments use and save your players the headache. NASL is already seeming to have a hard enough time getting enough top tier players to keep viewers interested with the koreans withdrawing and all. I really think that more top end players will reconsider playing in the NASL if they have to play on random maps that no other tournament will ever use Every tournament is getting new maps. The current map pool is incredibly stale and having every tournament use the same maps gets a little stale to watch, tbh
If the map itself creates unique metagame since it's too different from the ladder maps (for example Crevasse, Crossfire etc) it becomes uninteresting for me, as viewer who actively plays only ladder, to watch games on such maps. Copying builds and watching how pro deals with some situation you may have difficulties yourself makes it just so much more interesting. I have no idea about tactics or metagame on maps like Crevasse and that's why I just mostly skip watching those games. This is just my opinion though but I just find those games much more interesting that are played on familiar ladder maps.
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I think it is wrong to ask for balance suggestions here. It is very difficult to really judge just based on the look of maps and maybe some single games. Just look at Crossfire, how everybody (and Artosis still) says it is a bad Zerg map, when all statistics have denied that. Maybe some maps are more open, some have smaller rush distances, some make a FFE difficult. But they still can be balanced all around. It would be boring if all maps were very similar on some key factors.
I think you should ask the community which maps provided interesting games. And for the balance part, rely on statistics (difficult to get for these new maps) and some opinions of experts who you directly address. Then you have to just go for it, a risk remains, but it worked out for GSL quite well so far.
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It makes sense to get opinions from as many perspective as possible, especially when hard data - competitive results - are not available. Ultimately, unproven maps will need support from all three interest groups - the casters needs to have terrain features to talk about, the players must not hate them, and the viewers must enjoy the aesthetics.
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On December 08 2011 08:16 Primadog wrote: It makes sense to get opinions from as many perspective as possible, especially when hard data - competitive results - are not available. Ultimately, unproven maps will need support from all three interest groups - the casters needs to have terrain features to talk about, the players must not hate them, and the viewers must enjoy the aesthetics.
Correctamundo
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Updated Map List - New updated overview images | Map thread links -
Click on the map name for full overview images. Below each map name, there are links to each map thread here on TL, which has more info on each map. Some of the maps have been updated since they were played in the NASL opens and semi-open.
Please give feedback in the map threads as well.
Updates 8 dec 2011: updated the image for Damage Inc with latest version. Basically, all mains are now on high ground and have a regular sized ramp entrance. The top right and bottom left mains that were changed were also increased in size.
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TPW Damage Inc should not be in the map pool because it makes PvP 4 gate versus 4 gate just like Tal Darim. Now that we're well enough into SC2 to know this, no new maps should be coming without some sort of one FF ramp for the Protoss main, or maybe natural if the map is designed with a shared main/natural.
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TPW Overgrown
I take it it's a remake of shakuras with similar forced spawns? Might not be so bad. I like shakuras except for the late game map split scenario which this maps seems to have fixed. It might be a bit too large though.
Yes, the spawns are like Shakuras, cross and long spawns (and disabled close spawns). Please check the map thread for more info and discussion. Se my last post for links to all map threads. Overgrown was changed (since NASL semi-open) with more space behind the mineral lines to take some of the air space, making space for both drops and anti-air defense. The high grounds by the thirds and in the left and right low grounds are slightly bigger, making the low ground areas less open.
The map that have changed the most, compared to the old overview images in the OP, is Damage Inc, where an entire expo per player was removed (this version was played in the semi-open).
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On December 08 2011 07:23 IronManSC wrote: On behalf of the TPW team, whichever maps are accepted, and if they have gold bases, they will be replaced with normal blue bases. You can be sure of this.
Okay since I'm an active mapmaker (one of my maps is TL map contest finalist) I know all of these maps and have some thoughts and recommendations to share:
Ohana is an excellent, dynamic 2p macro map. It has an easy third and fourth and each player has a tower on his side of the middle, so you have a good time macroing. Yet the fact that there are 4 different pathes through the middle and you can only change sides through a very small choke makes it hard to split the map like you can on Shakuras for example. The middle bases are very contested and further ensure that the lategame doesn't result in boring map splits but instead is a constant fight about controlling these bases. This is my first choice.
One Must Fall has an ingenious layout (no wonder since it's effectively a remake of the BW map Carthage). You can easily expand in every direction you want to, the last bases you take are again pretty contested due to rather short distance to your enemy's bases and there is tons of attack pathes all over the map. This is more of an aggressive map with somewhat of an harder third and rush distances only a bit longer than xelnaga caverns. Imo the gold needs to be removed (TPW as quoted will do that), the aesthetics need to be improved (TPW is known for excellent aesthetics and will surely do that) and I wish the middle would be streteched out a bit more to increase map size/rush distance (easy fix, should think about it). This is my second choice.
For a third map I don't have a clear choice. I don't rly mind what map it will be I guess.
Concrete Dreams is an attempt to make a smaller and better version of Terminus. It's one of the most detailed and beautiful maps I have ever seen. When it comes to gameplay I'm a bit worried that "another Terminus" will confuse players. There's already 3 versions of Terminus and this map looks a lot like Terminus, yet it rly isn't in some aspects. It should play out just fine tho. The third is harder but the distances are shorter.
Lunar Station ... hm... it just doesn't bring anything new to the table and there's like no rly clear chokes and open areas on the map, everything is the same. I don't like this map a lot, it's just very generic and doesn't do anything better than the other maps.
Emeral Jungle has lots of attack pathes and expansion choices but I don't like the base between you and your enemy in vertical spawns. It's like directly on the attack path between bases and I see terran taking it as fourth while slowpushing all the time. Also I don't like how vulnerable the nat is. Don't like it a lot overall.
Overgrown is very nice. It's basically Shakuras but with the flaws of that map fixed. On this map you can expand in the same easy way and macro up but lategame it's no longer easy split map with only one attack path through the middle (and mass ghosts pwning poor Zergs in TvZ). Since I don't like Shakuras' lategame and the lack of attack pathes I see this map as a huge improvement if it would replace Shakuras.
Damagine Inc is a cool map with a cool idea. All the small features are used right and are fun to play around with and the overall base layout is very solid and good. One problem why it's not in my top3 necessarily: flat choke ruining PvP.
Odyseey is very basic and has proven to create good games and be rather popular amongst players in the Go4SC2 Cup. I don't think much bad things can be said about this map aside from the fact that the third is a bit hard. It would just be a very solid pick.
Artifice is solid and boring. If you want a solid boring map that's beautiful go for it, I don't see how that would give us anything new to be excited about tho.
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I like Oddysey best of all these maps. All races seem able to expand, and it has different attack/counter-attack paths. I would remove the gold for balance though, unless it had rich vespene geysers or something, to make it worthwhile for Zerg/Protoss.
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Why not ask some top-level players instead?
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On December 08 2011 23:13 Andreas wrote: Why not ask some top-level players instead?
Read the second page... Xeris said he is talking too with the Players and Mapmakers about this.
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One Must Fall and Odyssey are top picks for sure. Odyssey has been proved to be a very solid map already and One Must Fall provides a lot of options for expansion. That's a reliable, straightforward map and a dynamic, really different map.
After that I would have to choose between Artifice, Overgrown, Ohana and Damage Inc.
Overgrown I see as a much, much better Shakuras except for the fact that you can pretty much walk from anywhere to anywhere.
Artifice is very simple and very pretty, but also pretty boring.
Ohana is really good overall. I'm intimidated by how many attack routes there are, but I think they're more reasonable than Overgrown.
Damage Inc is a map that's excited me so much since the thread was first made I get lost in it, so I'll refrain from commenting out of bias.
I think Ohana gets the edge, so my votes would be
Odyssey, One Must Fall, Ohana
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I am against gold on all maps, GSL doesn't have it and yet it remains kind of balanced. Just look at this season compared to October and August!
My picks would probably be: TPW Overgrown TPW Damage Inc TPW Artifice
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Took a look at the maps, I don't see a lot of difference between a few of them they look like almost exact clones with minor changes. The creator wasn't very unique in his ideas on the maps. I would like a map like belshir beach inside, something appealing to the eyes.
Personally I come from a high level of Age of Empires background, so I am used to a changed map everytime I play. From what I know though Pros in SC2 would probably prefer consistency in maps and throwing something new in now and then.
If you could Xeris, could you have some of the old maps into the pool that the Pros like, then make it so that one of their games has to be on a new map? adding just a little flavor to the game, but not too much? =B
Maybe this is an evil idea.
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I think the new maps that are coming out lately have bases too close together. I.E You can get 4+ bases too easy. I think making them more like a mix of Taldarim and Antiga would be good. Taldarim for size, Antiga for distance to 4th base+
PS the colours/tilesets look awesome on a lot of them so good job
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Damage Inc. has 4 spawn points right? So it's either cross with taldarim style natural, or cross with normal base setups. That's why i voted for that one, cuz it's 2 maps in one.
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On December 07 2011 17:48 holynorth wrote: The community provides the money. Our opinion should be the first priority. Read all (or most) of the comments in here and you'll see how bad of an idea this is. 90% of the people have no idea what to look for and just say random stuff like "I want a cool map like Bel'Shir Beach!" which is just terrible because it's a bad map with good looks. I agree that tournaments should to something for the viewers, but if they really want to do that, they'll pick maps that produce good games, not ones that are nice to look at.
My 3 picks:
Odyssey: Still my favourite 2p map in SC2. 3rds aren't too close, all the bases are in a nice spot and there are multiple attack paths. Only change that I'd like to see is to move the ramp a tiny bit closer towards the natural.
Damage Inc.: Unfortunatly all the games I've seen took place with top left/bottom right spawn. Nevertheless I really like the idea of having 2 maps in 1. The 3rds aren't as close as before anymore either, so that's good. However as many other people I'm still sceptical about the mineral blocks. I guess that should be up to the pros.
Concrete Dreams: Yes, it's kind of a Terminus that's not gigantic and the 4ths are easier to take. Also it's the map with the coolest aesthetics I've ever seen (seriously, check out the mapthread and check out how they realized the theme). Not much more to say about this, Terminus was one of the maps that produced some epic games, so I'd expect the same from this one.
To add a little bit something to the discussion about easy 3 or 4 bases etc. I think the number of minerals/geysers should definitly be cut down a bit. Personally I've started to experiment with 6 mineral/1 geyser 3rds which give the need of an earlier 4th base and make 3 base play less strong. I think messing with the ressources is an easy way to determine the playstyle used on the maps.
Also a big thanks to Xeris for pushing the process of custom maps in tournaments.
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Stick with the GSL maps, remove Crossfire, and add one new map max. Universal maps across all tournies would be awesome. And no gold mines. :D
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On December 09 2011 02:00 Kazuki wrote: Stick with the GSL maps, remove Crossfire, and add one new map max. Universal maps across all tournies would be awesome. And no gold mines. :D
Xeris has noted for several months now that NASL is adding 3 community maps to season 3. I think they're going to stick with that...
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Dominican Republic39 Posts
I love this new open minded view that NASL is getting, after hearing all the NASL team have been saing, Im thinking that the best season is coming for you guys! hope you the best and keep improving!
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On December 07 2011 10:46 Belha wrote: Just REMOVE GOLDS expansions, all of them, are not balanced!
this is exactly what I was going to post. Gold expos are just too good for terran.
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Yeah remove gold please. It has been the most broken part of this game since forever.
How come we never see expansions that move away from the center of the map and behind the starting locations? Something like this may actually benefit the Zerg player.
Many of these maps also seem too "chokey". I haven't looked into detail but I hope we don't have any 1 FF ramps. These gimmicky map features cheapen high level play imho.
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If you guys would bother reading the thread before posting, you would see that one of the TPW guys has stated that all gold bases would be turned blue.
Maybe this should be added to the OP, since people are apparently too lazy to read 4 (GASP!) pages before repeating a criticism that has been addressed.
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1) Artifice 2) Ohana 3) Lunar Station
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On December 08 2011 07:23 IronManSC wrote: On behalf of the TPW team, whichever maps are accepted, and if they have gold bases, they will be replaced with normal blue bases. You can be sure of this. So if you agree that gold is somewhat Terran favored (or otherwise imbalanced, whatever), is there a reason for not replacing all gold bases on all TPW maps anyway? I mean regardless of whether NASL picks them or not? No reason to keep them if it's imbalanced right ?
Perhaps I'm reading your reply wrong and this will happen anyway ^^ It seems NASL picking a map is a condition for it.
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Removing the gold minerals is a very good idea. It's also very nice to see NASL picking up community maps. Thanks for the replay pack, will be watching some games.
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These maps seem really intresting and I will simply place my views as a spectator and not as an individual concerened or even aware of balance since I can't talk about that with much legitimacy.
My picks would be:
Damage Inc The maps is probably the most intriguing one of them all as it is, in my eyes, a 2 1v1 maps rolled into one. The fact that the spawn positions are cross and only cross make it so that only one of two scenarios can happen; it will be either a very Tal'darim-esque map on a smaller map with positions being forced or it could be a more generic... can't really compare it specifically to any map, but the other position has a ramp for both players and all in all it is a very intresting map in general.
Concrete Dreams This map really reminds me of Terminus but smaller and only 2 player. This really makes it more intresting for me as a spectator since Terminus was really an awesome map but simply got phased out of professional play and I really like that there is a possibility of a new and more aggressive version being put on for a chance to be in NASL.
Ohana Call me shallow but I love this map simply because of its aesthetics! The map itself looks very sleak and cool and the prettiest map out of all of them. I also am pretty biased towards 1v1 maps and really would like more of them be used in competetive play.
Overall, I picked my maps in accordance to what I like and what I find intresting, not based on any balance knowledge or any of that so please take my opinions as such.
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I really don't like ohana. Lots of chokes, expos all seem neatly tucked away and very easy for T/P to defend. all the counterattack paths are narrow and would be very easy to hold with some bunkers or canons or FFs.
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On December 09 2011 05:23 hunts wrote: I really don't like ohana. Lots of chokes, expos all seem neatly tucked away and very easy for T/P to defend. all the counterattack paths are narrow and would be very easy to hold with some bunkers or canons or FFs. Like Crossfire, the Zerg favoured map?
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On December 09 2011 05:30 LunaSaint wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 05:23 hunts wrote: I really don't like ohana. Lots of chokes, expos all seem neatly tucked away and very easy for T/P to defend. all the counterattack paths are narrow and would be very easy to hold with some bunkers or canons or FFs. Like Crossfire, the Zerg favoured map?
except with many more easy to hold expansions.
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Wait Xel Naga still there? -____-
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Why don't you wait until TL does their 2k map tournament. Afterwards, you can ask TL if you could use their maps.
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dezi
Germany1536 Posts
On December 07 2011 11:07 MonkSEA wrote:- TPW One Must FallUnsure about this map.. It's REALLY big, REALLY cluttered which makes it look really bad, I have nothing to say about the map about balance, but it looks really hard to get past 2 bases as Terran or Protoss.
That's just plain wrong. The distances are actually pretty close to XNC (which is nowadays already considered small). 3rds (those in the corners) aren't also that far away and you can pretty much cover nat and one 3rd entrance at the same time - still you're vulnerable to drops and need to worry bout the other path to your 3rd - but a 3rd shouldn't be free.
On December 07 2011 10:44 VoirDire wrote: TPW One Must Fall Terran pushes through the high ground middle might be too strong, but I'm not sure. I already considered increasing the the size of the ramps at the mid (they're actually 5 and tripple-wide ramps).
On December 08 2011 05:43 VoirDire wrote: TPW One Must Fall
Looks a lot like Jungle Basin and might have the same problems (terran pushes through the middle). Not sure though. FYI: OMF is a reworked port of Carthage.
Golds can be changed easily though 
Still THANKS to all your responds - this helps us map makers to polish and improve our work.
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We will be removing the gold bases from the maps .
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On December 09 2011 05:36 ptbl wrote: Why don't you wait until TL does their 2k map tournament. Afterwards, you can ask TL if you could use their maps.
These maps were used in NASL Open Tournament 1 and 2, so they've been play tested enough to where they feel confident in choosing 3 of the best ones for season 3.
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I just want new maps, Ohana seems pretty good. But yeah i agree, the gold bases should be removed.
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On December 12 2011 02:57 GoSuChicken wrote: I just want new maps, Ohana seems pretty good. But yeah i agree, the gold bases should be removed.
Read three posts up.
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Thanks for the feedback guys, I'll take opinions for a few more days before making some decisions.
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