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A couple of days ago the premier map making teams (TPW, ESV and MCL) had a discussion about introducing the UMP - Universal Map Pool. It would serve 2 purposes. One is to stabiles the map pool in tournaments, the second would be to better introduce new maps in tournaments.
The first issue is the volatile map pool of tournaments. Every tournament uses different maps from a pool of around 20 maps made by mostly Blizzard and team Crux who makes maps for the GSL. It creates several problems. One is the dozens of different versions of the same map. Dreamhack for example had at least 1 game on the first version of Shakuras Pleateau played and some versions of Dual Sight with gold bases were played despite the official use of the latest version of the map with more chokey nat/third and gold bases removed. The second problem is that without a unified map pool no tournaments dare to introduce new maps. Imagine IPL, MLG, NASL, Dreamhack, GSL and IEM all decided to introduce 3 brand new maps each. Players would no longer have to learn and prepare the 20 maps slowly introduced through the past year, they would now have to know 30-40 maps, maybe even more. A tournament would at the same time run the risk of introducing what could be a failed map cause they would be the first to use it and no tournament will run the risk of being tryout for a map. Currently the only tournament that successfully(saying successfully because so far attempts to introduce maps in other tournaments have not yet stabilied) introduces new maps is GSL. They are all from team Crux who have access high level korean play testers that can verify that a map is ready for tournament play before it is introduced to the map pool.
In order to proberly introduce new maps there would have to be some kind of agreement so that when a new map is introduced it will be introduced to all tournaments. A unified map pool that allows tested maps to enter tournaments on a wide scale so that tournaments can use them without risk of using a bad map and players can dedicate their time to practise them.
This is where our discussion ended cause we quickly learned that we the map makers and map making teams are in no position to introduce such a map pool. There have to be someone behind this, someone that tournaments and pro gamers can blindly trust is doing the right thing. We need someone that is in a position to say that this is the map pool because it is the best maps, it is perfectly tested and if you use our map pool you are using the maps that players practise for and other tournaments use as all.
So who should support this? Blizzard themselves? Blizzard would likely have the most solid impact and they got the tools to maybe introduce it into battlenet in the same way that the ladder pool is a part of battlenet. They could definetly make it happen. But there is a but. Would anyone trust Blizzard, given their history of maps, to make these decisions? Would you trust Blizzard to make the tournament map pool?
If not Blizzard then who? The mayor tournaments like MLG? Should one tournament or several put their heads together and say this is how it is going to be? This is the map pool we will all use.
The community maybe? Maybe Team Liquid should be the brain behind this and use their pro players to ensure the best maps are used and as the face of the community encourage tournaments to use the map pool?
My own ideal opinion is that it should be worked out by the community and finally promoted by Blizzard. Imagine that Team Liquid with a unified voice of the pro players, the community and the map makers where to sit down once a month or every few months to discuss the map pool, whats new and what needs changes. Imagine we would come to an agreement and show it to Blizzard who would intregrate the maps into battlenet. Imagine a new option when creating a new custom game. On your list of Blizzard maps, popular, recently played etc. there would be a new option called UMP where you would always find the latest UMP map pool, always with the latest version of the maps and available on all servers. With the unified support of the community and Blizzard the tournaments would absolutely adapt to this and we would always have the best and newest maps available for tournaments. We would see new maps and the pro players would always know what to train for.
Is it idealism or realism? Let us open up the debate.
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and what about those not on a map team?
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This was on State of the Game or Inside the Game once. I think it was Incontrol who said that Blizzard is the one unifying corporation that has the power to do exactly this. Personally, I believe a universal map pool would be an ingenious idea, but after all the terrible maps Blizzard has produced (albeit it took a long time to discover how terrible some of them were and are, we can't put all the blame on Blizz), do we really want to put our faith in them? I don't know.
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I think a UMP would be a great idea, i think as long as the map pool is changed regularly then it will improve the level of play and also it takes some of the pressure off both players or organisers since everyone knows what the maps are.
Can you add a poll to the OP, just a simple yes no poll for whether people like the idea of a UMP
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On November 29 2011 01:01 a176 wrote:
and what about those not on a map team?
I think you misunderstood my point a bit. It is not going to be up to the map making teams to make any decisions. We have already concluded that we are not in a position to do so. I dont know who would be involved in any kind of decision making. Maybe representatives of the map making teams, maybe indivudual map makers or maybe the only part that map makers would take would be submitting maps for the community to decide on.
On November 29 2011 01:02 xlava wrote:
This was on State of the Game or Inside the Game once. I think it was Incontrol who said that Blizzard is the one unifying corporation that has the power to do exactly this. Personally, I believe a universal map pool would be an ingenious idea, but after all the terrible maps Blizzard has produced (albeit it took a long time to discover how terrible some of them were and are, we can't put all the blame on Blizz), do we really want to put our faith in them? I don't know.
Absolutely, I dont think Blizzard would be trusted to solely decide on the map pool. However with the recent Team Liquid map contest Blizzard have shown willingness to work with the community. I think ultimately Blizzard should be the one making it happen but it will be based on decisions from the community and/or mayor tournaments.
On November 29 2011 01:03 FlaminGinjaNinja wrote:
I think a UMP would be a great idea, i think as long as the map pool is changed regularly then it will improve the level of play and also it takes some of the pressure off both players or organisers since everyone knows what the maps are.
Can you add a poll to the OP, just a simple yes no poll for whether people like the idea of a UMP
I dont think it is a matter of people liking the idea or not. I think many would vote yes in one form or another. I am more curious about how it would be done and who would have to be involved.
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What good has blizzard ever done? I say they should be left out of this compleatly.
I think that we should use a parliamentary system to decide which maps would be on the pool. AKA everyone is allowed in teamliquid to vote for a canditate and then the guys with a lot of votes will be the judges who decide the maps. We can even have parties. New elections held when needed.
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On November 29 2011 01:13 Archvil3 wrote:
I dont think it is a matter of people liking the idea or not. I think many would vote yes in one form or another. I am more curious about how it would be done and who would have to be involved.
people need to first address these aspects of indecision that has plagued map making/custom maps since forever, before you even begin to formulize a concept like this. its a good idea yes, but so has been a lot of things people have tried with custom maps, but to this day has seen little fruition.
personally though, i would like to see as many maps as possible rather than a single map pool because then tournaments would be able to differentiate themselves (that is unless you are suggesting a large pool to draw maps from). otherwise you just get what you have now - every tournament using the same map, and then you pray to god that they don't fall into the scheme of using those maps for another year and a half.
your issue of maps having a multitude of different versions isn't a problem. its not your problem, my problem, or the players problem. i don't understand why its so difficult to have a referee host, or tell the players the map ''GSL xxx' by author yyy.
lastly, the comment of having blizzard institute changes rather than the community is just another example of the community's profound ... laziness. atleast for the koreans, they have no issue throwing blizzard's golds, rocks, and whole maps out the window. but the western communities? you get comments on how they will play metalopolis until starcraft 6 is released. they have no interest at all in advancing the scene, but would rather follow whatever the koreans are doing.
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What would be wrong with taking the brains of talented map makers, and just making a rough draft of a universal map pool? Tournaments or Blizzard might not take it, at least not right away. However, if the community puts together a rough draft, it would be a way to get new maps out there and played tested. Whether they be through simple Zeek tournaments or something more grand like the TLMC maps for the TLopen, getting them tested and overwhelmingly approved by the community should grab the attention of tournament organizers. Even if the pool itself doesn't serve as a standard for all tournaments as described, if it just got new maps tested and popularized, I think we would see many of them break their way into tournament play.
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This belongs more to SC2 General than to Custom Maps.
From my point of view you have to get those map pools to tournaments like MLG, GSL, DH or any other big prize pool + best pros tourneys to use the map pool. Noone else can introduce these maps to every other casual out there.
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This is why we need an organization like KeSPA.
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On November 29 2011 03:24 aznboi918 wrote:
This is why we need an organization like KeSPA.
So they can have complete control over everything?
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On November 29 2011 03:36 Zombo Joe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 03:24 aznboi918 wrote:
This is why we need an organization like KeSPA. So they can have complete control over everything?
So they can control over the good usage of player contracts, map pools and other important stuff.
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On November 29 2011 03:41 Superouman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 03:36 Zombo Joe wrote:On November 29 2011 03:24 aznboi918 wrote:
This is why we need an organization like KeSPA. So they can have complete control over everything? So they can control over the good usage of player contracts, map pools and other important stuff.
I dont think we are ever going to see a controlling unit like KeSPA in SC2. There are too many tournaments in too many countries to make it possible for such an organization to have any power. If players, teams and tournaments dont like it they just stop being a part of it.
When it comes to maps I see more of a possibly of an "encouraging"unit - follow us because that is what the players and viewers want - then tournaments will be cooperative.
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Why not? Many sports have a central organization (FIFA) which checks that everything is done correctly towards players and teams.
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Mostly because Blizzard dont encourage it and I dont see it happening without their approval.
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Hear! Hear!
I agree that we need a universal map pool and everything you say is correct.
Allow me to be pessimistic tho: Blizz will not help us with this! At all! We shouldn't even think about it.
Better ask the big organizations - MLG, IPL, Teamliquid, ESL, Dreamhack - to approve something like this and find a solution how to make it happen (who should vote on maps, how to test, how does the map pool work etc).
Alternatively just ask Teamliquid, but in the past they didn't show any sign of willingness towards changing stuff this big on their own (albeit the fact that they made quite some propaganda in favor of new maps lately).
Ok here is another idea, write a mail suggesting this idea to MLG, IPL, ESL and Dreamhack, signed by the three mapmaking teams and try to get Teamliquid to sign it as well. This way TL would only have to show their approval...
Well it's quite complicated, as you said we aren't at all in the position to make anything happen on our own. We don't have any money or power. We rely solely on good diplomacy here, since unfortunately everyone in the scene except the BW veterans doesn't seem to care much about maps at all, even tho they totally should!
edit: This thread in general forum with a poll would probably show how much of the community silently want something like this to happen!
edit2: Ask the big organizations to make this happen and then ask the community to spam them @ twitter about it might work as well : )
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Creating a Map pool of the maps from the start would be rather easy. Most tournaments use fewer than 10 maps, and most of the major ones that I've seen (MLG, IPL, GSL) draw from only 13 maps.
I would suggest providing something along the lines of 15 maps for the tournaments to select their 7-9 that they wish. Comprise it of 14 core maps with one spot reserved for the potential inclusion of oddball maps that aren't presently standard to allow for potential growth of the format.
Looking at the map pools presently I see what I would consider 4 core categories of maps presently employed. These are the 2-Player maps, GSL style Mega Macro maps, 4-Player map with easy 3rd, and 4-Player map with an open 3rd. GSL also presently uses a 3 player map, Xel Naga Fortress, which I would personally love to see more of (but would consider this under the oddball category).
Maps would be rotated out quarterly, or with some specific time frame in mind at least. The revisions of maps should also be presented at minimum a few weeks before the change in quarters to allow for ample time to learn new maps and make adjustments, preferably giving even as much as a full quarter for people to study them.
Likewise the map review team, likely volunteers, would be a core group of fixed seats along with the possibility of a rotating "hot-seat" or two to be filled by a guest judge each time. Recurring guests possible. The general idea is to develop a strong team for the map selection, and then throw in some fresh meat to keep the flavor from getting stale. Room for evolution should be strongly encouraged.
The purpose of the judges would be more as a filtering system, rather than a final decision, and ultimately the final selection should be left up to the community to vote with. An open tournament/invitational could be built up around the map selection of the judges to offer exposure to the community to provide a better vote. After/between match series players could be interviewed on their thoughts about the maps and ideally all comments on the map design by casters and players would be logged or noted under the map on a dedicated website. I would obviously expect donations/sponsorship would have to be found to support the effort.
After that it would just be a matter of getting major event organizers to back the movement, and get some link support from Blizzard on battle.net or something whenever voting comes up.
It sounds like a lot of work, but I also believe this kind of thing could be monetized to keep the quality of the product pushing forward. These are just some ideas I threw together off the top of my head though, so observe with that in mind.
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i agree, without the cooperation of some big name organizations, this will be completely useless.
if we can get mlg, nasl, ipl, dreamhack etc on board, it a different story.
We would probably start with the 10-15 maps that are currently frequently used.
There should be a max amout of time for a map, let's say 6 months, after that i has to be removed for at least some time (can still be added again at a later point). When a maps gets removed, we can replace it with a new map.
Ideally, we would want some sort of map council that does a pre-selection of worthy maps and then lets the tournaments/players/viewers do the final decision. the pre-selection process should involve proper testing/feedback with the help from tournaments/progaming teams if possible. we would need to keep the number of maps to test reasonable, tho.
we should also try to put an end to the crazy map versioning that has been going on in the last year. we don't need 10 versions of of the same map with different map features or tags. ideally we would have an account on every server which we can use to upload our 10-15 maps on and people know it is the correct one to use.
the outcome would be a number of maps that players can practice on and tournaments can pick from. (of course they can still add any other maps if they wish)
and the map pool would keep getting updated on a monthly bases to keep the viewers happy.
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Let's not forget the players - after all, if you've "perfected" your play on one map, why would you want to change to new ones?
Doing something others call a hobby for a living means having a different approach to the whole subject.
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EPT
