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On November 29 2011 05:57 Barrin wrote:
A judging system is not enough. Unfortunately I think a judging process is integral to the ideal system, as competition itself is extremely important to fresh new ideas continuing to surface.
You could have all the top minds in mapmaking (btw these guys might want to make maps to submit instead of judge unless you pay them to judge) and all the top players of each race, and assuming you can get over the language barrier and actually get everyone to agree on certain maps (lol), you still wouldn't be guaranteed balanced maps.
I would keep Koreans out of this for now. They don't seem to be willing to cooperate with maps, and you can just use their maps in the map pool cos they have their own testing and picking system in place.
In BW balanced maps weren't guaranteed either, the maps were thoroughly tested but not necessarily balanced in the end.
I think keeping good mapmakers that submit maps from judging is stupid. Obviously you'd want someone like Superouman to make maps AND share his opinion about other maps, and I totally expect that the best mapmakers are capable of being unbiased (I myself can be unbiased at least).
Also I think we have tons of maps that are better than Blizz maps, and enough maps that can be tested and considered for professional play. I wouldn't worry about that, at first we only need some new maps anyway and after that - as you said - mapmaking will become (even) more serious.
I agree without money this won't work, thus ask the big organizations.
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I really want to see a UMP in sc2, I'm sick and tired of maps from the beta being used when they aren't even that good. A consistent influx of new balanced maps will help sc2 more than an aging map pool. New maps help add new dynamics and freshness to the game that myself and many others would like to see.
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If you haven´t read featured TL article Maps in the Balance, then you should check it out. It also concluded that there ought to be a universal map pool, but the question as to how we might implement it succesfully remains unanswered.
The only way, as I see it is to have all map makers organized in a "Map Makers Union" that could endorse an "official map pool" of sorts. The real challenge would be getting team Crux backing, cuz they already have a sweet deal going in the GSL.
I would just love for GSL to pick up a "foreign" map.
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On November 29 2011 07:44 Johanaz wrote:If you haven´t read featured TL article Maps in the Balance, then you should check it out. It also concluded that there ought to be a universal map pool, but the question as to how we might implement it succesfully remains unanswered. The only way, as I see it is to have all map makers organized in a "Map Makers Union" that could endorse an "official map pool" of sorts. The real challenge would be getting team Crux backing, cuz they already have a sweet deal going in the GSL. I would just love for GSL to pick up a "foreign" map.
Actually afaik Crux is fine with this idea, and like foreign maps, it's all on Gisado at this point for them in the GSL.
Either way you need un biased people making the calls. My favorite example is Monitor who is a REALLY great judge of maps but every map he makes he comes to me and says "this is the best map ever, put it in the Korean Weekly now!" Obviously I don't just off that, and have saved some less then stellar maps from being in.
That's why neutral parties are needed that are NOT mapmakers.
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I admit to really wanting to see my own maps in competitive play, and it probably would be bias. Maybe there's someway of designing a system where your map can only be elected by somebody else... but then you'd really have to have 1 member from each team or it would begin to be bias very quickly. Or we could try to contact some notable figures that are willing to put energy into picking top maps; mapmakers could submit a list to them or something.
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should be up to tournaments to decide what maps they use. Maybe some tournaments don't want to use the standard maps, because they want players dedicated to their tournament etc.
I actually like the testing around with different things, because most maps are imba or boring standard. And casters should be able to explain what their maps are about, at the start.
On the other hand the 100 versions of one map with only slight changes, really hurts the players and shouldn't be done. Maybe gathering weakspots to release a v2 is okay. Other then that if a map doesn't work, just scrap it and use another one, worked fine in every other game.
Only problem i see is with people only wanting maps they know and are considered balanced (which often isn't even true), making maps like taldarim or meta stay in tournaments for such a long time.
It won't happen anyway that there will be a standard map pool (because there are enough people that just love seeing new maps hehe). But it should be possible to stop a few things, for example the issue of 100 different versions of a map, since tournaments do listen to the community. But it would need a good communication between tournaments, so they use the up to date version ^^, could be established over map makers, but they would have to all agree on that version being the best.
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On November 29 2011 08:35 FeyFey wrote:
should be up to tournaments to decide what maps they use. Maybe some tournaments don't want to use the standard maps, because they want players dedicated to their tournament etc.
I actually like the testing around with different things, because most maps are imba or boring standard. And casters should be able to explain what their maps are about, at the start.
On the other hand the 100 versions of one map with only slight changes, really hurts the players and shouldn't be done. Maybe gathering weakspots to release a v2 is okay. Other then that if a map doesn't work, just scrap it and use another one, worked fine in every other game.
Only problem i see is with people only wanting maps they know and are considered balanced (which often isn't even true), making maps like taldarim or meta stay in tournaments for such a long time.
It won't happen anyway that there will be a standard map pool (because there are enough people that just love seeing new maps hehe). But it should be possible to stop a few things, for example the issue of 100 different versions of a map, since tournaments do listen to the community. But it would need a good communication between tournaments, so they use the up to date version ^^, could be established over map makers, but they would have to all agree on that version being the best.
You kinda miss the point. The map pool would have like 10+ maps that every tournament could pick it's 5-7 maps from to have their own unique map pool.
Also this map pool would be changed A LOT more than the stale Blizz+GSL map pool we have now, so we would see a lot of new maps.
That's why we would have to contact all the big foreign organizations and come to an agreement.
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On November 29 2011 08:46 Ragoo wrote:That's why we would have to contact all the big foreign organizations and come to an agreement.
I don't think you realize the absolute scale of something like that statement would be.
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On November 29 2011 09:12 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 08:46 Ragoo wrote:That's why we would have to contact all the big foreign organizations and come to an agreement. I don't think you realize the absolute scale of something like that statement would be.
I do and I don't see anything like this happening anyway, but it doesn't hurt to talk about what we would need. Just trying to hide my pessimisn in public 
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On November 29 2011 01:22 Sea_Food wrote:
What good has blizzard ever done? I say they should be left out of this compleatly.
Bingo! Blizzard has already proven themselves to be incompetent in regard to map pools. Besides, they aren't needed. What is needed? Well, it's obvious, isn't it?
I hope Blizzard forgets about making maps completely and concentrates on fixing the game properly.
On November 29 2011 01:28 a176 wrote:
your issue of maps having a multitude of different versions isn't a problem. its not your problem, my problem, or the players problem. i don't understand why its so difficult to have a referee host, or tell the players the map ''GSL xxx' by author yyy.
lastly, the comment of having blizzard institute changes rather than the community is just another example of the community's profound ... laziness. atleast for the koreans, they have no issue throwing blizzard's golds, rocks, and whole maps out the window. but the western communities? you get comments on how they will play metalopolis until starcraft 6 is released. they have no interest at all in advancing the scene, but would rather follow whatever the koreans are doing.
I don't think the different versions are a big problem either. How many different versions get used anyway? There are definitely few enough versions to be able to keep them straight. Take three extra seconds when picking a map and you're OK.
On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with efficiency. Talking of which, I think that's why they are better about making decisions; they're better organized and efficient. Go Korea!
On November 29 2011 03:16 Apoo wrote:
From my point of view you have to get those map pools to tournaments like MLG, GSL, DH or any other big prize pool + best pros tourneys to use the map pool. Noone else can introduce these maps to every other casual out there.
This guy has a point.
In the end, I think a universal map pool is a neat idea. Get all the teams in on it and it will work out.
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On November 29 2011 09:27 lovablemikey wrote:
I don't think the different versions are a big problem either. How many different versions get used anyway? There are definitely few enough versions to be able to keep them straight. Take three extra seconds when picking a map and you're OK.
Just for the record (and one random example I happen to have stats for on hand) on 4 of the major servers (NA, EU, KOR, CN) there is 19 different versions of Testbug currently. Would be 20 if my CN acct had not expired. Imagine a more popular map.
It's a legit problem.
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On November 29 2011 09:30 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 09:27 lovablemikey wrote:
I don't think the different versions are a big problem either. How many different versions get used anyway? There are definitely few enough versions to be able to keep them straight. Take three extra seconds when picking a map and you're OK. Just for the record (and one random example I happen to have stats for on hand) on 4 of the major servers (NA, EU, KOR, CN) there is 19 different versions of Testbug currently. Would be 20 if my CN acct had not expired. Imagine a more popular map. It's a legit problem.
Oh. Touche. We need a universal map pool.
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Definitely 100% support this, I think the map pool in itself needs regulation and shouldn't be taken so lightly as "hm what maps should we use for this tournament", this will also give so much potential for new maps to be tested say 1 or 2 at a time.
The strongest point about having a universal map pool is frequency of playtesting, we could introduce 1 or 2 new maps temporarily to the pool and within just a few weeks we will have hundreds of games played on the maps, and if there are any scathing issues they can either be fixed promptly or have the map removed promptly from the pool. It is a strong trial by fire type system that will not only weed out bad maps but substantially reward good ones with frequent high level play.
But the most important thing to think about first is that we need to pick the safest maps possible from the start, they need to be the safest because if there are any problems from the start, tournaments will use these maps, the problems will be found and tournaments will become critical of the map pool and all of a sudden its credibility is ruined and further tournaments will refuse to use the new map pool. The first maps we pick have to be the safest ones.
As for who picks, well I think it should somewhat consider the community's view of 'fun' or 'entertaining maps', but the bulk of the community should not be involved in deciding maps. This might sound harsh but think about it this way, 60% of SC2 players are gold league or below, 80% of players are platinum league and below, only 2% are Masters and about 0.1% or so are GM. Are platinum league players really capable of identifying balance issues at the highest level of play when they themselves don't yet have a full understanding of the game? It's harsh and I don't mean to offend people but the truth is most of the community (including myself!) aren't fit for judging the balance of these maps. But they can definitely help in figuring out bugs that take rigirous testing to find.
So the best people in my opinion to choose for this would be GM players with a particular eye for maps, MorroW is a perfect example of someone who is extremely attentive to maps and can tell you what is a good map and what is a bad map. But it's also important to note that he is also Zerg and will have a Zerg perspective, we need GM players from all 3 races all with a keen eye for maps if this is to be done properly. Maybe we should start an application process with a few partly known problematic maps (maybe pre-MLG/GSL modified blizzard maps?) that we can use to test GM players, then if they spot the imbalances they can be considered, either case it isn't something we should take lightly by any means.
I really think this is the way to move forward and once the map pool has been standardized people will be better equipped to criticize or compliment various maps, knowing that they are all talking about the one specific map and no argument about whether its the cross-spawn version or no-gold-mineral version will ever occur. They should also be republished with a specific prefix like MLG and GSL that will identify with the team that balances and organizes the maps and ensures that it's the correct map that is being used, something short like "SM" for Standardized Map.
I hope we can make this happen  .
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idealism or realism?
it's the future.
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I think the mapmaking teams should judge each others maps, as well as use input from proplayers like the GSL does. So pros+mapmakers = sc2 map panel
i know you mapmakers are wary of having all this responsibility upon yourselves, but you're the best people for the job.
tourneys don't have people knowledgeable enough for it, though they should all at minimum approve of a map before you implement it. Same with blizzard, which can implement the [UMS] thing you said, but shouldn't have any say in maps (unless they want their own maps submitted for review, lol). Community vote would be awful imo. Proleague maps aren't revealed until they're already being used.
This needs to be an effort between every mapmaking team and a large pool of playtesting GMs/pros/day9. Also, make sure you allow some way for a team-less mapmaker to submit his map.
as for funding... NASL/IPL/MLG or maybe proteams could help? holds you accountable, gives you a "customer" of sorts that you have to appease for your business? I would say sponsors (a Nike blimp on metal, a Razer umbrella on belshir beach), but each league has its own sponsers now, so you can't do that. So the teams/leagues would have to be your sponsers.
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i agree we should have representatives of the map making community do a pre-selection of candidate maps. i don't think it is too much of an issue if we pick some reasonable persons and make sure all parties are equally represented.
then we gather feedback and test results from the community/players for the final decisionmaking process. ideally we would contact the pro-teams and present them 3-4 maps and ask for their feedback/testing.
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I don't think using mapmakers is a good idea unless they are also masters+ players, you really need a particular mindset to know how to abuse the geography of the map and find the potential problem areas.
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i was only suggesting having mapmakers doing a pre-selection of maps, not the final decision.
it makes sense because you can't expect pro players to research all the maps out there and filter through them, which requires alot of work. some of us mapmakers have probably looked at every map ever posted on tl (and also playxp to some degree)
i also have to disagree about having to be a master+ player. an experienced mapmaker has an excellent eye for terrain, proportions, distances & balance.
the most important thing is constantly following the scene and events to be up to date on the latest metagame changes and balance issues. a few weeks/months of inactivity and you may lose your ability to judge a map properly.
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EPT
