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We have issued a clarification to this article after discussion with staff, read here - Heyoka |
On November 29 2011 03:15 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 03:12 Antoine wrote:On November 29 2011 03:05 VirgilSC2 wrote:
To be honest, the biased nature of TeamLiquid articles is not new. Anyone who read the TL write-up after Liquid`Zenio faced ReXMujuk in Code A knows exactly what I'm talking about. That article really made me ashamed to be a Liquid fan. are you talking about the TLPro article? that is the team site. Yes, I was referring to the TLPro article, however as far as I'm aware, journalism is journalism no matter where it's posted.
Ridiculous,
Team sites can be as biased as they want.
You expect an unbiased account of news if you visit Complexity or EG's site?
Of course not, there's a reason it's called a team site and not a news site.
TL is obviously a little different because it's so popular so they are trying to police stuff on the main site but it would make sense if TLPro is totally pro-team.
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Was expecting a DH write up not Providence. Still quite interesting opinions, especially the whole upsets and no names results thing.
Also it appears you're not allowed to have an opinion on one particular team without qualifying it in relation to every other SC2 team judging by eg fanboys replies in this thread. Pretty sad. Are we hounding out someone else from the SC2 esports scene because they dared share their opinion now?
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On November 29 2011 03:12 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 03:09 FryktSkyene wrote:On November 29 2011 03:01 farvacola wrote:On November 29 2011 02:57 FryktSkyene wrote:On November 29 2011 02:51 Hardigan wrote:On November 29 2011 02:38 FryktSkyene wrote:Incontrol is amazing at creating drama >.> I agree with someone that posted he over reacted. It's 1 persons opinion and the way he words his post makes it seem everyone is hating of the EG house. Just another day is Pro Esports.... On November 29 2011 02:27 amazingxkcd wrote:
Its not a question of whether Team houses are good, its more of whether those inside the team houses benefit from them. Its one thing to say that Team Houses are not helping, and its another thing to say that maybe the players are not completely utilizing the houses. I also agree with this! I understand you starcraft is a very stressful game and you need to take breaks everyone once in a while, but when the video of the EG house appeared it showed everyone that it's a damn nice place to live (pool, other game systems[xbox,ps3,etc] and god knows what else is there but does that take away too much time from practicing? None of us will ever know how much they actually practice unless you are there, but if Incontrol says we are practicing "8-10 hours a day before big events" and then frankly they put out terrible results besides the top 3 players it makes you wonder if they are actually practicing that amount of time or if they are, if they are practicing correctly. I don't mean to call of incontrol in this post but if you are practicing that much and still putting up very poor results your either lying about the amount of time, or your not training correctly. so.... TL is "shitting" on EG and you call Incontrol amazing at creating drama? They have a practise shedulde but also free time. So they aren't allowed to have a live besides sc2? Maybe they don't practise as much as maybe Slayers, but you know what? Not every player in Slayers are world class like MMA. Did you even read anything in this thread? "TL is shitting on EG" No they are not...One person is making his opinion and it just happens to be in a thread on TL, that doesn't mean all of TL agrees with it. wow. If you read my post at all it would be pretty clear I know they work a lot (You have no idea how much time they practice unless you are there so don't act you know) "Just happens to be a thread on TL"........are you serious? Confusedcrib is a writer for TL, not some random poster, the write-up is featured, and the language of the original article was as childishly bad as it gets. When a newspaper prominently features an article that causes outcry, both the paper and author are to be blamed. Hot bid wrote in this thread (if you even looked at the other comments) Not saying I agree or disagree with confusedcrib in his article, but let's be clear: something written on our front page is an opinion of the writer and not representative of everyone on TL or even everyone on the TL staff. We have a volunteer staff of ~200 people. Even confusedcrib said before he expected to get flamed for it, it's a relatively controversial opinion that obviously isn't some official statement by our entire site. If everyone has read our news lately there's a decent amount of op-ed-ish style opinion segments.
tldr; never take one writers opinion to represent all of TL I bolded the part where you problem occurs. Umm, HotBid is doing his job as a leader within TL, somewhat akin to the actions of an editor on a newspaper, further reinforcing my analogy. A writer put out a bad article, someone in a position of leadership did some damage control, the world will move on. One would hope that revisions and edits when it comes to the publishing of featured write-ups will be more strict in the future, as TL is THE place to get english language Sc2 information.
Exactly! So lets not flip shit because some writer had a opinion and it was posted on a TL article. Because are just that, opinions and therefore not facts which mean they can be wrong or right. You don't have to come to TL for updates on Sc2 world (Though I agree it is the best and easiest place to find them)
[from the article]
I'm just going to say it. EG did badly, and I can't help but feel that the team house is not paying for itself.
At this point it's not longer TL's but an opinion article just on there thread. Which is why I don't understand why confusedcrib isn't allowed to say this (I guess he could have made it more clear that this section was an opinion section but meh to late.)
I guess it wasn't clear to everyone that it's his or her's (sorry idk) opinion and therefore doesn't rep. TL just because it's on an official thread on the website. TL shouldn't censor someones opinion just because it may not agree with the norm.
Thats all I got! :D
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On November 29 2011 03:24 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 03:15 VirgilSC2 wrote:On November 29 2011 03:12 Antoine wrote:On November 29 2011 03:05 VirgilSC2 wrote:
To be honest, the biased nature of TeamLiquid articles is not new. Anyone who read the TL write-up after Liquid`Zenio faced ReXMujuk in Code A knows exactly what I'm talking about. That article really made me ashamed to be a Liquid fan. are you talking about the TLPro article? that is the team site. Yes, I was referring to the TLPro article, however as far as I'm aware, journalism is journalism no matter where it's posted. Ridiculous, Team sites can be as biased as they want. You expect an unbiased account of news if you visit Complexity or EG's site? Of course not, there's a reason it's called a team site and not a news site. TL is obviously a little different because it's so popular so they are trying to police stuff on the main site but it would make sense if TLPro is totally pro-team.
Yes, what I'm saying is they're welcome to be as pro-Liquid as they want, but they should really try to be less anti-Opponent. The whole clarification I'm trying to point out is that they were a little too anti-Mujuk, instead of just being more pro-Zenio. There is a big difference as to how each is perceived.
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I really enjoyed the article with the exception of Rise of the "No Names" HELLO VILEILLUSION!? the 15 year old who rolled this MLG taking out VileSpanishiwa LiquidSheth among many other people eventually falling to the nerd baller HayprO!!! There wasn't even a slight mention of him T_T
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how is FXOz beating ganzi anyway of an upset.....
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I was at Providence and must say that it was a much grander event than the last time I went to a MLG, Columbus 2010. And not just because of SC2, but the production values across the board. Im a writer for SK Gaming and was there covering Halo, but it was hard to not be inticed to wonder around see what else what happening. The only thing that disappointed me was that LoL did not have its own main screen, but had to share with Call of Duty: Black Ops. Even smaller TV's stationed on the outside of the players area would have been a nice. But all and all, it was a fantasic weekend.
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On November 29 2011 03:31 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 03:24 Condor Hero wrote:On November 29 2011 03:15 VirgilSC2 wrote:On November 29 2011 03:12 Antoine wrote:On November 29 2011 03:05 VirgilSC2 wrote:
To be honest, the biased nature of TeamLiquid articles is not new. Anyone who read the TL write-up after Liquid`Zenio faced ReXMujuk in Code A knows exactly what I'm talking about. That article really made me ashamed to be a Liquid fan. are you talking about the TLPro article? that is the team site. Yes, I was referring to the TLPro article, however as far as I'm aware, journalism is journalism no matter where it's posted. Ridiculous, Team sites can be as biased as they want. You expect an unbiased account of news if you visit Complexity or EG's site? Of course not, there's a reason it's called a team site and not a news site. TL is obviously a little different because it's so popular so they are trying to police stuff on the main site but it would make sense if TLPro is totally pro-team. Yes, what I'm saying is they're welcome to be as pro-Liquid as they want, but they should really try to be less anti-Opponent. The whole clarification I'm trying to point out is that they were a little too anti-Mujuk, instead of just being more pro-Zenio. There is a big difference as to how each is perceived.
I'm saying they can play down the opponent's if they want, just shouldn't shit on them completely.
How can they be pro-Zenio but not anti-Mujuk while still delivering quality content?
If you dissect each article you'll find someone who would be offended with how shit is presented.
If we cut out any bias, then we'd be left with nothing, which I don't think anyone wants.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
People complaining about the TLPro site = Stupid, that's a hype site for a team, it will never be critical, nor should it be expected to.
The part in question, while no doubt is an opinion piece, is still part of an overall TL editorial, and should be held to such standards. The edit went along way to helping that, it changed it from what looked like an openly aggressive forum post to a more considered write up, with only a few words changed. However, its still a questionable move, and also flat out wrong in my opinion. Its funny that despite dropping out of the the absolute top level of competition for months, Idra returns to spectacular after going into the team house. And DeMuslim improved HUGELY, becoming the best ladder player outside of Korea for a long period. And yet that is ignored? Silly stuff.
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Wait people complaining that TLPro website is Liquid biased? That made my day
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On November 29 2011 03:46 Linwelin wrote:
Wait people complaining that TLPro website is Liquid biased? That made my day
It's only VirgilSC2 who's complaining about TLPro.
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Great articel, but why is Oz, a Code S Protoss, beating Ganzi, a Code S/A Terran, an upset?
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Just to let people know, I'm in a class right now, but will be responding to all of the criticism later (in about an hour). And Im glad that the article inspired a lot of real discussion, even above some of the flaming.
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On November 29 2011 02:23 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 02:17 VirgilSC2 wrote:On November 29 2011 00:41 Sphen5117 wrote:On November 28 2011 19:41 iNcontroL wrote:
pretty stupid of TL to post an article where they literally call into question making a team house.. what the fuck?
I want a vile, vVv, coL (america), Mouz, Empire etc etc etc.. house.. I want as many teams as possible taking this shit serious. Where the FUCK does TL get off calling out someone else for making a team house for themselves? A waste? It can NEVER be a waste. Even if Machine, myself, Axslav or Strife NEVER win a MLG the house is NOT a waste. It is where serious players get more serious and do the best they can to train and get better. It is where legitimate media is produced, serious practice is had and better results are posted..
I expect WAY more from TL than this shit. Everyone and their mother could call out TL for their results and their partnership/house with oGs but they don't because that would be a dumb thing to do in this community.. and yet the #1 community website goes out and calls out their rival while turning the blinders to their own crowd of players who are "carried" by players who churn out less results than the ones who carry EG... wtf. This, a thousand times over. I won't lose any respect for Team Liquid the TEAM, but the website/staff sorta lost some points on this one. It's super ignorant of them. There's SO many parrallels between EG and TL at this point, that are the exact same things the OP is whining about in EG. Only having a few of your players currently doing super well? Check. Adding in new, Korean players, who then are on the top of your performers? Check. Having the players producing less results still stick it out like a boss and train their hearts out? Check. How can the OP not see the correlations? Fuck, these team houses ARE working. Idra has become such a macro god, that even the likes of BOMBER are afraid to go into a long game with him, and instead push for early wins. When the top Korean Terrans in the world are afraid to stand and bang with you, you're doing something fucking right. And where has Idra been living and training? Heaven forbid that making a teamhouse doesn't make all your players immediate champions. Look at half the houses in Korea? MVP, TSL, Prime? Where are their results? They're all decent players, but each team only has a couple that are dominant. Herp Derp, OP. Herp. Derp. This was almost the reaction I had at first upon reading the article, but after I read a few pages of posts here, including a few posts detailing how lax the EG practice house really is (apparently they don't have a coach to keep them on a strict regiment, or any in-house practice rankings to bolster the competitive environment?!) It seems to me that the EG "Team House" is more of an EG "Frat House" where everyone plays some ladder games, knocks back a few drinks, and then hit the gym. Yeah I read those too! I love reading about my life and how it actually is from people who have no idea! LOL
Bad response. Instead of using sarcasm you could have explained what the actual circumstances are.
Would have been more effective if you want to resolve this situation. But of course being snarky is more fun 
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On November 29 2011 03:25 FryktSkyene wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 03:12 farvacola wrote:On November 29 2011 03:09 FryktSkyene wrote:On November 29 2011 03:01 farvacola wrote:On November 29 2011 02:57 FryktSkyene wrote:On November 29 2011 02:51 Hardigan wrote:On November 29 2011 02:38 FryktSkyene wrote:Incontrol is amazing at creating drama >.> I agree with someone that posted he over reacted. It's 1 persons opinion and the way he words his post makes it seem everyone is hating of the EG house. Just another day is Pro Esports.... On November 29 2011 02:27 amazingxkcd wrote:
Its not a question of whether Team houses are good, its more of whether those inside the team houses benefit from them. Its one thing to say that Team Houses are not helping, and its another thing to say that maybe the players are not completely utilizing the houses. I also agree with this! I understand you starcraft is a very stressful game and you need to take breaks everyone once in a while, but when the video of the EG house appeared it showed everyone that it's a damn nice place to live (pool, other game systems[xbox,ps3,etc] and god knows what else is there but does that take away too much time from practicing? None of us will ever know how much they actually practice unless you are there, but if Incontrol says we are practicing "8-10 hours a day before big events" and then frankly they put out terrible results besides the top 3 players it makes you wonder if they are actually practicing that amount of time or if they are, if they are practicing correctly. I don't mean to call of incontrol in this post but if you are practicing that much and still putting up very poor results your either lying about the amount of time, or your not training correctly. so.... TL is "shitting" on EG and you call Incontrol amazing at creating drama? They have a practise shedulde but also free time. So they aren't allowed to have a live besides sc2? Maybe they don't practise as much as maybe Slayers, but you know what? Not every player in Slayers are world class like MMA. Did you even read anything in this thread? "TL is shitting on EG" No they are not...One person is making his opinion and it just happens to be in a thread on TL, that doesn't mean all of TL agrees with it. wow. If you read my post at all it would be pretty clear I know they work a lot (You have no idea how much time they practice unless you are there so don't act you know) "Just happens to be a thread on TL"........are you serious? Confusedcrib is a writer for TL, not some random poster, the write-up is featured, and the language of the original article was as childishly bad as it gets. When a newspaper prominently features an article that causes outcry, both the paper and author are to be blamed. Hot bid wrote in this thread (if you even looked at the other comments) Not saying I agree or disagree with confusedcrib in his article, but let's be clear: something written on our front page is an opinion of the writer and not representative of everyone on TL or even everyone on the TL staff. We have a volunteer staff of ~200 people. Even confusedcrib said before he expected to get flamed for it, it's a relatively controversial opinion that obviously isn't some official statement by our entire site. If everyone has read our news lately there's a decent amount of op-ed-ish style opinion segments.
tldr; never take one writers opinion to represent all of TL I bolded the part where you problem occurs. Umm, HotBid is doing his job as a leader within TL, somewhat akin to the actions of an editor on a newspaper, further reinforcing my analogy. A writer put out a bad article, someone in a position of leadership did some damage control, the world will move on. One would hope that revisions and edits when it comes to the publishing of featured write-ups will be more strict in the future, as TL is THE place to get english language Sc2 information. Exactly! So lets not flip shit because some writer had a opinion and it was posted on a TL article. Because are just that, opinions and therefore not facts which mean they can be wrong or right. You don't have to come to TL for updates on Sc2 world (Though I agree it is the best and easiest place to find them) [from the article] Show nested quote +I'm just going to say it. EG did badly, and I can't help but feel that the team house is not paying for itself.
At this point it's not longer TL's but an opinion article just on there thread. Which is why I don't understand why confusedcrib isn't allowed to say this (I guess he could have made it more clear that this section was an opinion section but meh to late.) I guess it wasn't clear to everyone that it's his or her's (sorry idk) opinion and therefore doesn't rep. TL just because it's on an official thread on the website. TL shouldn't censor someones opinion just because it may not agree with the norm. Thats all I got! :D
Saying "I" somewhere in the body does not give a writer free license to say whatever they want without consequence or harsh response, or at least it shouldnt. The "EG (apart from Idra, huk, and puma) where you at" portion of the writeup does not match the tone of the rest of the article, which is (and should be) a celebration of the event instead of an untimely, out-of-place hatchet piece on the bottom half of another team's roster.
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On November 29 2011 03:15 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 03:12 Antoine wrote:On November 29 2011 03:05 VirgilSC2 wrote:
To be honest, the biased nature of TeamLiquid articles is not new. Anyone who read the TL write-up after Liquid`Zenio faced ReXMujuk in Code A knows exactly what I'm talking about. That article really made me ashamed to be a Liquid fan. are you talking about the TLPro article? that is the team site. Yes, I was referring to the TLPro article, however as far as I'm aware, journalism is journalism no matter where it's posted.
i am sorry man but, really? wow
to call out TL.net on bias while refering to matchday-article@team site is just so wrong, that i dont even know where to start. if anything, it shows your bias (against TL)
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On November 29 2011 03:54 Zinjil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2011 03:25 FryktSkyene wrote:On November 29 2011 03:12 farvacola wrote:On November 29 2011 03:09 FryktSkyene wrote:On November 29 2011 03:01 farvacola wrote:On November 29 2011 02:57 FryktSkyene wrote:On November 29 2011 02:51 Hardigan wrote:On November 29 2011 02:38 FryktSkyene wrote:Incontrol is amazing at creating drama >.> I agree with someone that posted he over reacted. It's 1 persons opinion and the way he words his post makes it seem everyone is hating of the EG house. Just another day is Pro Esports.... On November 29 2011 02:27 amazingxkcd wrote:
Its not a question of whether Team houses are good, its more of whether those inside the team houses benefit from them. Its one thing to say that Team Houses are not helping, and its another thing to say that maybe the players are not completely utilizing the houses. I also agree with this! I understand you starcraft is a very stressful game and you need to take breaks everyone once in a while, but when the video of the EG house appeared it showed everyone that it's a damn nice place to live (pool, other game systems[xbox,ps3,etc] and god knows what else is there but does that take away too much time from practicing? None of us will ever know how much they actually practice unless you are there, but if Incontrol says we are practicing "8-10 hours a day before big events" and then frankly they put out terrible results besides the top 3 players it makes you wonder if they are actually practicing that amount of time or if they are, if they are practicing correctly. I don't mean to call of incontrol in this post but if you are practicing that much and still putting up very poor results your either lying about the amount of time, or your not training correctly. so.... TL is "shitting" on EG and you call Incontrol amazing at creating drama? They have a practise shedulde but also free time. So they aren't allowed to have a live besides sc2? Maybe they don't practise as much as maybe Slayers, but you know what? Not every player in Slayers are world class like MMA. Did you even read anything in this thread? "TL is shitting on EG" No they are not...One person is making his opinion and it just happens to be in a thread on TL, that doesn't mean all of TL agrees with it. wow. If you read my post at all it would be pretty clear I know they work a lot (You have no idea how much time they practice unless you are there so don't act you know) "Just happens to be a thread on TL"........are you serious? Confusedcrib is a writer for TL, not some random poster, the write-up is featured, and the language of the original article was as childishly bad as it gets. When a newspaper prominently features an article that causes outcry, both the paper and author are to be blamed. Hot bid wrote in this thread (if you even looked at the other comments) Not saying I agree or disagree with confusedcrib in his article, but let's be clear: something written on our front page is an opinion of the writer and not representative of everyone on TL or even everyone on the TL staff. We have a volunteer staff of ~200 people. Even confusedcrib said before he expected to get flamed for it, it's a relatively controversial opinion that obviously isn't some official statement by our entire site. If everyone has read our news lately there's a decent amount of op-ed-ish style opinion segments.
tldr; never take one writers opinion to represent all of TL I bolded the part where you problem occurs. Umm, HotBid is doing his job as a leader within TL, somewhat akin to the actions of an editor on a newspaper, further reinforcing my analogy. A writer put out a bad article, someone in a position of leadership did some damage control, the world will move on. One would hope that revisions and edits when it comes to the publishing of featured write-ups will be more strict in the future, as TL is THE place to get english language Sc2 information. Exactly! So lets not flip shit because some writer had a opinion and it was posted on a TL article. Because are just that, opinions and therefore not facts which mean they can be wrong or right. You don't have to come to TL for updates on Sc2 world (Though I agree it is the best and easiest place to find them) [from the article] I'm just going to say it. EG did badly, and I can't help but feel that the team house is not paying for itself.
At this point it's not longer TL's but an opinion article just on there thread. Which is why I don't understand why confusedcrib isn't allowed to say this (I guess he could have made it more clear that this section was an opinion section but meh to late.) I guess it wasn't clear to everyone that it's his or her's (sorry idk) opinion and therefore doesn't rep. TL just because it's on an official thread on the website. TL shouldn't censor someones opinion just because it may not agree with the norm. Thats all I got! :D Saying "I" somewhere in the body does not give a writer free license to say whatever they want without consequence or harsh response, or at least it shouldnt. The "EG (apart from Idra, huk, and puma) where you at" portion of the writeup does not match the tone of the rest of the article, which is (and should be) a celebration of the event instead of an untimely, out-of-place hatchet piece on the bottom half of another team's roster.
To be fair it does say before the whole thing "I'll be honest guys, I'm really afraid of getting flamed for this," so I think he knew what was going to happen (or at least a little bit) but yeah I agree kind of. Like I said if it was made more clear that it's an opinion piece that I don't think there would have a been a problem. Then again, TL is like drama central so who knows.
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United States22883 Posts
On November 28 2011 19:52 Phenrock wrote:
Wasn't there a Redbull LAN not long ago that promoted training, which also included some liquid players? I'm pretty sure everyone that attended agreed that the event was a success to some degree. However White-ra said the event was too short and that people were only getting the benefits of working and training together towards the end. Imagine that as a team training house? hmm.... Interestingly enough, most of the players that attended RBL have actually fallen off a bit, especially Bomber. Two days of training just isn't enough to make someone much better or worse.
HotBid and others have summed up most of the problems with the EG portion nicely. It's apparent that their house actually has made an impact on some of the players. HuK and Puma's stays were so brief that it'd be unfair for anyone, besides those two alone, to comment on how it helped them but IdrA's mentality has completely changed and he's become incredibly productive again. I haven't watched much of iNc, Strifecro or Machine, but Demuslim's recent results speak for themselves and Axlsav definitely appears to be improving.
I think like FXOBoss said, there's still some value to questioning the idea and how it can be improved. The FXO house didn't take off at all and the Sweden house didn't produce many positive results. And on the flip side, this past MLG and many other tournaments, have been witness to the success of many players without team houses or much sponsor support. What else needs to be done to improve the benefit of team houses? Is it worth the cost right now if it's not done right?
EDIT: Also one note for the end: 'plethora' does not mean a lot of something. It means an excess, as in there are too many and it's detrimental.
"A plethora of butter in the recipe" means there's too much butter and it's ruining the recipe. "There's a plethora of chocolate chips in this cookie" is just an impossibility.
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Here is something I do not understand. Many of the people defending the EG House have mentioned that the EG players are improving, and I think that is undeniable. But are they improving faster than they would be without the house? Are they improving at a greater rate such that there is a marked difference between where they are now and where they would be without the house? I think the point of that section of the article was that it doesn't seem to be the case.
Of course Incontrol is going to be better than he was before the EG house since he has been practicing for 3 months. Incontrol was also better in May than he was in March, 3 months later into a year that had nothing to do with a team house. Maybe the section of the article was written prematurely, since 3 months is a very short time to review whether or not a team house has had any effect. Maybe the question is impossible to ask since we do not have 2 Incontrols, one in a team house and one without a team house. But I do not see why it is wrong to ask the question. Has the team house been more effective than if they had not been in a team house?
See, people keep on bringing up Demuslim as if the team house somehow made him way better, but as far as I know (I could be wrong here) Demuslim has always been a good player, he just went through some injuries and wasn't able to practice as much as he would like, and perhaps went into a mental funk due to the inability to focus on the game as much as he would like. Are people really trying to say that without the team house Demuslim wouldn't have been a good player? Because I don't think that is true.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/R1CH/MLGProvidenceDay3/silverfire/501_05851_t.jpg)
