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[MLG] Providence - Finale - Page 17

Forum Index > SC2 General
482 CommentsPost a Reply
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We have issued a clarification to this article after discussion with staff, read here - Heyoka
awwnuts07
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States621 Posts
November 28 2011 20:48 GMT
#321
"Artosis, the greatest judgment-er of them all." For some reason I could not stop laughing after reading this line.
I'm a noob
Zinjil
Profile Joined February 2011
United States166 Posts
November 28 2011 20:50 GMT
#322
On November 29 2011 04:29 tree.hugger wrote:
This is really silly. And I mean really silly. I'm disappointed that people can't see the obvious nuances between being a hater and being a critic. I'm especially disappointed that people think that the TL writing staff has some kind of axe to grind against EG in our front page content. That's completely nonsense, being a fan of one team or an anti-fan of another is not a pre-requisite to being on the writing staff, and if you think so, you're actually just 100% factually incorrect.


I'd argue that people are realizing the difference between being a hater and being a critic, and they are correctly noting that the section of the article that is being debated is hard to place on one side of the line or the other. Some of the language in the original version wasn't so different than a post that you would find in the recesses of some LR thread with red text underneath. Starting an article with "I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but" requires a lot of reason and thought to justify, rather than just kind of plopping an opinion down and waiting for the fallout.
FILM
Profile Joined September 2010
United States663 Posts
November 28 2011 20:51 GMT
#323
I think Hot_Bid and Nazgul's comments put me at ease in this thread.
Artosis:  "It's like Detroit in there."   Tasteless:  "Lots of shootings and damaged buildings."
-_-
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States7081 Posts
November 28 2011 20:54 GMT
#324
On November 29 2011 02:10 Chill wrote:
Please have more neutral writeups in the future.

Games being played. Tournament being won. Fun being had.


Nominated for Teamliquid Poster Awards in the "Moderator," "Clever, yet understated," and "Incontrol getting told" categories.
Insane
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States4991 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-28 21:19:50
November 28 2011 21:19 GMT
#325
I just wanted to chime in among the swarm of negativity to say that I liked the article personally. I think people are being unnecessarily harsh on confusedcrib, who I felt wrote a relatively good article. Is it fair/unfair to expect more results from the teamhouse? Maybe, maybe not, but comments from some players how they rarely actually play together and the fact that only a small percentage of the team has seen any increased success (and in Idra's case, it was as much of a mental thing) means that the article makes sense to me.

EG is my favorite team in general, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to be critical of aspects of it.
fortheGG
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom1002 Posts
November 28 2011 21:31 GMT
#326
Great write up

On November 29 2011 05:54 -_- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2011 02:10 Chill wrote:
Please have more neutral writeups in the future.

Games being played. Tournament being won. Fun being had.


Nominated for Teamliquid Poster Awards in the "Moderator," "Clever, yet understated," and "Incontrol getting told" categories.


LOL i miss that commentary Chill did
Riking
Profile Joined September 2010
Netherlands8 Posts
November 28 2011 21:37 GMT
#327
On November 28 2011 22:50 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
We want TL to have opinion pieces in our news. However this does not mean that we want to use the term opinion piece as an excuse for posting content that probably should not have been posted. We're internally reviewing the article currently, mostly with regards to how we will do things in the future.


I think it is being reviewed guys, so chill.
XRaDiiX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Canada1730 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-28 21:52:08
November 28 2011 21:42 GMT
#328
Ostojoy taking out Destiny isn't much of a "Rise of the no-names" the Guys got a similar and surprisingly similar win/ratio sitting near the Top of NA Ladder as Violet... in GrandMaster

Great-write up lots of some-what unknowns though taking out big names..

I like that they are allowing independent/differing opinions to write articles...!
Never GG MKP | IdrA
Cloud9157
Profile Joined December 2010
United States2968 Posts
November 28 2011 21:45 GMT
#329
I think Mvp is still the best in the world, but I won't be surprised if Leenock surpasses him.
"Are you absolutely sure that armor only affects the health portion of a protoss army??? That doesn't sound right to me. source?" -Some idiot
confusedcrib
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1307 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-28 21:53:11
November 28 2011 21:47 GMT
#330
I think the best way to go about this is just to clarify a few things about my beliefs.

  • I think that having team houses in North America is awesome, and would love if every single team could afford one.

  • The article was simply meant to question if having the team house was paying for itself in terms of player improvement, not if EG should close it's doors. I never once suggest that they should close it down, I'm only suggesting that they are not improving at a rate that the community expected, and they need to figure out why they are not improving.

  • I was not questioning the players only on results, that would be stupid, someone like catz got knocked out by Nestea and MKP and obviously doesn't deserve to be scrutinized for his play. That being said, it wasn't just the results, it was the players who EG lost to that was concerning, they were all players with much less resources behind them.

  • iNcontroL's responses are kind of weird, I have the feeling that we could have a civilized debate if I just talked to him. I can't help but feel that those posts were just a surge of emotional response and should probably be treated as such.


In all, I was just hoping to raise the point that EG's players are consistently under-performing from the expectations set by both the community and themselves since establishing a team house. EG's players have lost to other players with much less in the way of resources behind them. This begs the question, are the extra resources being allocated to EG's players paying off? We don't live in a fantasy world where the team houses are free, so what results should we expect? My wording was harsh, but that was very deliberate. EG is in a position where they need to figure out why they are not improving and they need to get it fixed, otherwise their huge investment into a team house, while good for the scene in general, doesn't really seem to be paying off.

I tend to agree with people though that this may not have been the best place for such criticism. It's just that the results of Providence are directly related to this criticism being valid, so it would be equally weird to put it anywhere else.

On a side note, I'm very sorry that I didn't mention you Illusion, when I was browsing the list of players that Slasher released you were on the Korean list so I mistakenly assumed that you were just someone from Korea I had never heard of. I later realized that you were apart of Vile during the tournament, but in the editing process I forgot to add you in to the piece about Spanishiwa, Gatored, and dde. I am truly sorry about that, and will be sure this mistake does not happen in the future.

P.S. I am actually a big fan of EG. I was watching iNcontroL yesterday apparently moments before he read this article I went to sleep, and I'm currently watching Huk. I've also written things in the past that many people have flamed for being excessively biased to both iNcontroL and Idra.
I'm a writer for TeamLiquid, you've probably heard of me
Juanald
Profile Joined February 2011
United States354 Posts
November 28 2011 21:47 GMT
#331
am i the only one to think this article was unfairly biased agianst EG.. so a couple players are in a slump on EG the writer uses that as an excuse to call for an end to their practice with starcraft titans idra machine axslave and puma... sounds more like jealousy then anything to me tbhimho. i remember a long time ago liquid tyler was in a slump and now look at him exceding expectations. let strifecrow spread hi wings ims sure hell turn a few heads next MLG.
"hey it could happen!" ~ angels n the outfield
Kluey
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada1197 Posts
November 28 2011 21:49 GMT
#332
On November 28 2011 16:39 heyoka wrote:

Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?

I'll be honest guys, I'm really afraid of getting flamed for this, but it's something that's concerned me for long enough that I'm just going to say it. EG did badly, and I can't help but feel that the team house is not paying for itself. Of course when you go to EG's coverage of the event, they point to having "solid results overall," but in reality, it's only ever their golden three that do well. Thanks to Idra, Huk, and Puma, EG always manages good PR, but the results of their other players are starting to get down right disturbing: iNcontroL lost to State and Strifecro, StrifeCro lost to syckness and RuFF13, Lzgamer lost to Catz and exMaSter. Only Machine and Axslav's results are remotely explainable, with losses to Nestea, dde, Gatored, and Violet. Even with those two players though, losses to Gatored and dde when you live in a team house are hard to justify.

To be honest, if they want to justify having a team house, they need to work out a better system. While Puma and Idra seem to be practicing correctly, I can't shake the feeling that they would do well regardless of where they were living. EG needs to figure out what those two are doing right, and have everyone try to emulate it to avoid poor results. Having a team house in North America established a wonderful precedent, now they just need the results to match.

[/center]

All they do is ladder and custom games with each other. If they want to get better they need to start doing things that you will only find in a house. I live in my parents house and ladder+custom games are just as easy to do. They need to have an organized system with a coach, a higher hour per day maybe something like 10-12 hours, a white board with an organised schedule and calender and organised practice sessions with new strats.
Redmark
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada2129 Posts
November 28 2011 21:52 GMT
#333
Incontrol has now surpassed Totalbiscuit (of the past, he's calmed down some since) in being the most touchy and reactive community figure.

This is an opinion I have expressed many times, but I feel it needs to be said. Chill, man. It may seem like it, but a lot of people get attacked in this community. For fuck's sake, if Idra is handling himself better than you you're doing something wrong.
Hardigan
Profile Joined June 2011
Switzerland1297 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-28 21:59:27
November 28 2011 21:59 GMT
#334
On November 29 2011 06:52 Redmark wrote:
Incontrol has now surpassed Totalbiscuit (of the past, he's calmed down some since) in being the most touchy and reactive community figure.

This is an opinion I have expressed many times, but I feel it needs to be said. Chill, man. It may seem like it, but a lot of people get attacked in this community. For fuck's sake, if Idra is handling himself better than you you're doing something wrong.

Well, if your Team and your Team's effort is officially attacked by an other "Team" (""because it's not the players themself) than you have to react. He can't just make some assumptions without any inside information.
If it would have been a random james McSmithy that would be another story.
ROOTIllusion
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1060 Posts
November 28 2011 22:05 GMT
#335
On November 29 2011 06:47 confusedcrib wrote:
I think the best way to go about this is just to clarify a few things about my beliefs.

  • I think that having team houses in North America is awesome, and would love if every single team could afford one.

  • The article was simply meant to question if having the team house was paying for itself in terms of player improvement, not if EG should close it's doors. I never once suggest that they should close it down, I'm only suggesting that they are not improving at a rate that the community expected, and they need to figure out why they are not improving.

  • I was not questioning the players only on results, that would be stupid, someone like catz got knocked out by Nestea and MKP and obviously doesn't deserve to be scrutinized for his play. That being said, it wasn't just the results, it was the players who EG lost to that was concerning, they were all players with much less resources behind them.

  • iNcontroL's responses are kind of weird, I have the feeling that we could have a civilized debate if I just talked to him. I can't help but feel that those posts were just a surge of emotional response and should probably be treated as such.


In all, I was just hoping to raise the point that EG's players are consistently under-performing from the expectations set by both the community and themselves since establishing a team house. EG's players have lost to other players with much less in the way of resources behind them. This begs the question, are the extra resources being allocated to EG's players paying off? We don't live in a fantasy world where the team houses are free, so what results should we expect? My wording was harsh, but that was very deliberate. EG is in a position where they need to figure out why they are not improving and they need to get it fixed, otherwise their huge investment into a team house, while good for the scene in general, doesn't really seem to be paying off.

I tend to agree with people though that this may not have been the best place for such criticism. It's just that the results of Providence are directly related to this criticism being valid, so it would be equally weird to put it anywhere else.

On a side note, I'm very sorry that I didn't mention you Illusion, when I was browsing the list of players that Slasher released you were on the Korean list so I mistakenly assumed that you were just someone from Korea I had never heard of. I later realized that you were apart of Vile during the tournament, but in the editing process I forgot to add you in to the piece about Spanishiwa, Gatored, and dde. I am truly sorry about that, and will be sure this mistake does not happen in the future.

P.S. I am actually a big fan of EG. I was watching iNcontroL yesterday apparently moments before he read this article I went to sleep, and I'm currently watching Huk. I've also written things in the past that many people have flamed for being excessively biased to both iNcontroL and Idra.

All good, would help if my TLPD name wasn't vileIllusion. Illusion is taken by zenexicecream though.. oh well
www.twitter.com/rootillusion & www.facebook.com/illusionsc2
desRow
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2654 Posts
November 28 2011 22:21 GMT
#336
On November 28 2011 16:53 Sadistx wrote:
I'm sad that you guys didn't mention this guy, who, while not winning Providence, did at 15 years of age, come 24th in the most stacked MLG to date.

+ Show Spoiler +

DC Nerd Baller, vileIllusion[image loading]


Also, wtf, is this a joke?

Show nested quote +
(P)State 2 – 1 (P)iNcontroL
(Z)HeavOnEarth 2 – 1 (P)Agh
(P)Gatored 2 – 0 (P)Axslav
(Z)sycknesS 2 – 0 (Z)StrifeCro
(P)Forbs 2 – 1 (T)Drewbie
(P)Forbs 2 – 1 (T)Spades
(Z)Ostojiy 2 – 0 (Z)Destiny
(T)dde 2 – 0 (Z)Machine
(T)Binski 2 – 0 (P)Tyler
(T)RuFF13 2 – 1 (Z)StrifeCro


None of these results are a surprise, except maybe Forbs breaking out. Everyone else who won was pretty much already the favorite, if you follow the scene semi-closely.

Do not agree at all. And most of them aren't just top ladder either, they are on sponsored teams too, so "rise of the nonames" is quite inappropriate.



same concern very disappointed illusion wasn't mention..... I don't think ruff should be listed
http://twitch.tv/desrowfighting http://twitter.com/desrowfighting http://facebook.com/desrowfighting
CeriseCherries
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
6170 Posts
November 28 2011 22:24 GMT
#337
I think twas a pretty good writeup and a pretty good year for MLG...

here's to better games and good luck next year
Remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
bkrow
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia8532 Posts
November 28 2011 22:32 GMT
#338
On November 29 2011 02:23 iNcontroL wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2011 02:17 VirgilSC2 wrote:
On November 29 2011 00:41 Sphen5117 wrote:
On November 28 2011 19:41 iNcontroL wrote:
pretty stupid of TL to post an article where they literally call into question making a team house.. what the fuck?

I want a vile, vVv, coL (america), Mouz, Empire etc etc etc.. house.. I want as many teams as possible taking this shit serious. Where the FUCK does TL get off calling out someone else for making a team house for themselves? A waste? It can NEVER be a waste. Even if Machine, myself, Axslav or Strife NEVER win a MLG the house is NOT a waste. It is where serious players get more serious and do the best they can to train and get better. It is where legitimate media is produced, serious practice is had and better results are posted..

I expect WAY more from TL than this shit. Everyone and their mother could call out TL for their results and their partnership/house with oGs but they don't because that would be a dumb thing to do in this community.. and yet the #1 community website goes out and calls out their rival while turning the blinders to their own crowd of players who are "carried" by players who churn out less results than the ones who carry EG... wtf.


This, a thousand times over. I won't lose any respect for Team Liquid the TEAM, but the website/staff sorta lost some points on this one. It's super ignorant of them. There's SO many parrallels between EG and TL at this point, that are the exact same things the OP is whining about in EG. Only having a few of your players currently doing super well? Check. Adding in new, Korean players, who then are on the top of your performers? Check. Having the players producing less results still stick it out like a boss and train their hearts out? Check.

How can the OP not see the correlations? Fuck, these team houses ARE working. Idra has become such a macro god, that even the likes of BOMBER are afraid to go into a long game with him, and instead push for early wins. When the top Korean Terrans in the world are afraid to stand and bang with you, you're doing something fucking right. And where has Idra been living and training?

Heaven forbid that making a teamhouse doesn't make all your players immediate champions. Look at half the houses in Korea? MVP, TSL, Prime? Where are their results? They're all decent players, but each team only has a couple that are dominant.

Herp Derp, OP. Herp. Derp.

This was almost the reaction I had at first upon reading the article, but after I read a few pages of posts here, including a few posts detailing how lax the EG practice house really is (apparently they don't have a coach to keep them on a strict regiment, or any in-house practice rankings to bolster the competitive environment?!) It seems to me that the EG "Team House" is more of an EG "Frat House" where everyone plays some ladder games, knocks back a few drinks, and then hit the gym.


Yeah I read those too! I love reading about my life and how it actually is from people who have no idea!

LOL

I am a fan of yours. And from listening to you for a long time on SotG and ITG etc i have come to respect your ability to articulate and argue a point of view. While your point in this thread is valid and requires discussion, the fact that you have successfully acted like a child in 3/4 posts in this thread is incredibly frustrating.

You have a point. So express it; without being an asshole, or rude or inflammatory. I get the post made you mad, but it would be silly to think that at least some people in the community weren't thinking it? Noone is saying don't have the house, but maybe the way the house is run could be re-evaluated?

Then again, any insight into how the house is actually run, sort of a day in the life of the EG house would be great.
In The Rear With The Gear .. *giggle* /////////// cobra-LA-LA-LA-LA-LA!!!!
JujuXG
Profile Joined September 2011
United States373 Posts
November 28 2011 22:32 GMT
#339
the black and white photo are awesome.
lol @ the fan girl with hero xD
"I'm naturally good at everything. I'm good at eating too, so that's why I can't lose weight."
Longshank
Profile Joined March 2010
1648 Posts
November 28 2011 22:39 GMT
#340
On November 29 2011 06:47 confusedcrib wrote:
I think the best way to go about this is just to clarify a few things about my beliefs.

[list]

[*] I think that having team houses in North America is awesome, and would love if every single team could afford one.

[*] The article was simply meant to question if having the team house was paying for itself in terms of player improvement, not if EG should close it's doors. I never once suggest that they should close it down, I'm only suggesting that they are not improving at a rate that the community expected, and they need to figure out why they are not improving.


Sorry but "Should Team Evil Geniuses Have Established a North American Team House?" suggests that you're questioning the existence of an EG team house. If you're questioning if it should have been opened in the first place, then gives a number of examples of its' 'failure' while leaving all positive effects out, then one obviously assumes you indirectly suggest they might be better off closing it down.
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