On November 28 2011 19:52 Phenrock wrote: Wasn't there a Redbull LAN not long ago that promoted training, which also included some liquid players? I'm pretty sure everyone that attended agreed that the event was a success to some degree. However White-ra said the event was too short and that people were only getting the benefits of working and training together towards the end. Imagine that as a team training house? hmm....
Interestingly enough, most of the players that attended RBL have actually fallen off a bit, especially Bomber. Two days of training just isn't enough to make someone much better or worse.
HotBid and others have summed up most of the problems with the EG portion nicely. It's apparent that their house actually has made an impact on some of the players. HuK and Puma's stays were so brief that it'd be unfair for anyone, besides those two alone, to comment on how it helped them but IdrA's mentality has completely changed and he's become incredibly productive again. I haven't watched much of iNc, Strifecro or Machine, but Demuslim's recent results speak for themselves and Axlsav definitely appears to be improving.
I think like FXOBoss said, there's still some value to questioning the idea and how it can be improved. The FXO house didn't take off at all and the Sweden house didn't produce many positive results. And on the flip side, this past MLG and many other tournaments, have been witness to the success of many players without team houses or much sponsor support. What else needs to be done to improve the benefit of team houses? Is it worth the cost right now if it's not done right?
I think this is an interesting idea to talk about. Unfortunately, a lot of it will necessarily just be speculation, as only the teams proper know how much money they put into the house and how they measure what they're getting out.
For example, the EG Lair doubles as both a training house and a marketing tool for their sponsors.
Another thing I wonder is if the idea of Team Houses supercharging your practice is completely mythical. Foreigners have learned to thrive off of finding practice partners from all over the world from wherever they themselves are in the world. Does living in the same house as their practice partners actually help them that much? And what if their preferred practice partners don't actually live in the same house?
You can always point to the Korean pro houses as models of success, but several Code S players practice from their homes. When pros talk about how great it is to live in a team house, they usually just talk about the benefits of practicing with certain awesome players -- ie, just having good practice partners, which is, again, something you can get from just playing from your basement.
Maybe team houses aren't that big of a deal. Either way, I do think that EG has been performing better since they started theirs (look at team leagues.)
On November 29 2011 03:43 MCDayC wrote: People complaining about the TLPro site = Stupid, that's a hype site for a team, it will never be critical, nor should it be expected to.
On November 29 2011 03:46 Linwelin wrote: Wait people complaining that TLPro website is Liquid biased? That made my day
On November 29 2011 03:05 VirgilSC2 wrote: To be honest, the biased nature of TeamLiquid articles is not new. Anyone who read the TL write-up after Liquid`Zenio faced ReXMujuk in Code A knows exactly what I'm talking about. That article really made me ashamed to be a Liquid fan.
are you talking about the TLPro article? that is the team site.
Yes, I was referring to the TLPro article, however as far as I'm aware, journalism is journalism no matter where it's posted.
i am sorry man but, really? wow
to call out TL.net on bias while refering to matchday-article@team site is just so wrong, that i dont even know where to start. if anything, it shows your bias (against TL)
I apologize if I wasn't clear before, but the point I was trying to make is not that the site is too biased towards Liquid, but rather the piece I referred to was a little too harsh on Zenio's opponent.
The difference between 'Zenio's opponent Mujuk wasn't very good and plays poor mech Terran, Zenio rolled him ezpz' and 'During his first GSL showing as a Liquid player, Zenio got a chance to showcase what, in his opinion, is his best matchup. Zenio knew his opponent would attempt a Mech approach to combat him, and was able to formulate a precise method to dissect his play' is actually quite large, and yet they both get the message across that "Yay, Zenio beat his first round opponent!"
This is really silly. And I mean really silly. I'm disappointed that people can't see the obvious nuances between being a hater and being a critic. I'm especially disappointed that people think that the TL writing staff has some kind of axe to grind against EG in our front page content. That's completely nonsense, being a fan of one team or an anti-fan of another is not a pre-requisite to being on the writing staff, and if you think so, you're actually just 100% factually incorrect.
Confusedcrib expressed an opinion. Whether you think it's right or not is up to you. But it's simply an opinion from someone who has put in the time and effort to be able to express it in this post.
Also VirgilSC2, I can't even begin to grasp how you've missed the important distinction between TeamLiquid.net, a news and community site that aims for accuracy and impartiality, and TeamLiquidPro.com, a website designed to post only news about TLAF-Liquid`. You seem vaguely aware of this, yet unable to process why it matters.
You've made it more clear now, but that' a separate issue, with nothing to do with this post. And quite frankly, MujuK really was quite awful, although you're entitled to disagree.
On November 29 2011 04:29 tree.hugger wrote: And quite frankly, MujuK really was quite awful, although you're entitled to disagree.
I would agree that MujuK's play was less than stellar, however I think it's important to note that he's a player not on a Pro team, he's the first member from his clan (as far as I'm aware) to qualify for the GSL, and he was already thrown up against a (former) Code S Zerg. From a journalistic perspective, it just makes more sense in my mind to approach it a little less critical of MujuK's play.
On November 29 2011 04:29 tree.hugger wrote: And quite frankly, MujuK really was quite awful, although you're entitled to disagree.
I would agree that MujuK's play was less than stellar, however I think it's important to note that he's a player not on a Pro team, he's the first member from his clan (as far as I'm aware) to qualify for the GSL, and he was already thrown up against a (former) Code S Zerg. From a journalistic perspective, it just makes more sense in my mind to approach it a little less critical of MujuK's play.
But the point of TeamLiquidPro isn't unbiased journalism.
Good pictures. Not a fan of the article. First off the portion that's just shitting on EG for absolutely no reason. How can you really just come out and go "yeah well EG basicly sucks and shouldn't have gotten that team house it's a waste." When they've only had it for 3 or so months now? That's really not enough time to see a whole lot of change. And so far EG has still done better than TL, so if you question that wouldn't you have to question TLs choices as well in order to not write a completely biased article?
Other than that, The upsets and "rise of the no names" is really off.
How can you really say that hero or ganzi over puzzle is a big upset? Or that oz over ganzi or MC over MVP or puma over losira/bomber or leenock over MMA or upsets? Let alone "big upsets?" They are all basicly on the same level, that's not an upset. The only real upsets you mentioned are naniwa winning vs nestea/mvp, and gatored winning vs ganzi.
On the no names, really a lot of those people aren't complete no names, and some of them were the favored to win over the "named" players anyway. Honestly I don't think anyone in the right mind would think that destiny would beat ostojiy. I'm pretty sure that ruff has proven himself better than strifecro in the past, as well as dde has proven himself better than machine before.
On November 29 2011 04:29 tree.hugger wrote: And quite frankly, MujuK really was quite awful, although you're entitled to disagree.
I would agree that MujuK's play was less than stellar, however I think it's important to note that he's a player not on a Pro team, he's the first member from his clan (as far as I'm aware) to qualify for the GSL, and he was already thrown up against a (former) Code S Zerg. From a journalistic perspective, it just makes more sense in my mind to approach it a little less critical of MujuK's play.
But the point of TeamLiquidPro isn't unbiased journalism.
I see right through your icon changing shenanigans.
I understand that, I was merely stating my opinion.
On November 29 2011 04:29 tree.hugger wrote: And quite frankly, MujuK really was quite awful, although you're entitled to disagree.
I would agree that MujuK's play was less than stellar, however I think it's important to note that he's a player not on a Pro team, he's the first member from his clan (as far as I'm aware) to qualify for the GSL, and he was already thrown up against a (former) Code S Zerg. From a journalistic perspective, it just makes more sense in my mind to approach it a little less critical of MujuK's play.
But the point of TeamLiquidPro isn't unbiased journalism.
On November 29 2011 04:29 tree.hugger wrote: And quite frankly, MujuK really was quite awful, although you're entitled to disagree.
I would agree that MujuK's play was less than stellar, however I think it's important to note that he's a player not on a Pro team, he's the first member from his clan (as far as I'm aware) to qualify for the GSL, and he was already thrown up against a (former) Code S Zerg. From a journalistic perspective, it just makes more sense in my mind to approach it a little less critical of MujuK's play.
He plays bad, why is it wrong to call it like it is? Why should it be sugar coated so no one can possibly be offended and no one's feelings are hurt? They didn't slam him for paragraphs on end, it was a very tame article stating the fact that he is really bad right now, and you agree that that's the truth.
You know who's writing a great piece about his heroic struggle as david against goliath vs a former Code S player? Well, no one because his team doesn't have journalists, but if they did they'd write about it.
What's interesting to consider is what if the EG article was about a slumping Korean team, or a slumping European team? Is it controversial because it hits so close to home? IMO it's because EG has one of the bigger personalities in the NA and SC2 scene, and when they boast it carries a lot of weight, so its much more heavy when they post not-so stellar results, especially when you hear a lot of hype surrounding the team house almost every week from player PR. I feel like it's not an appropriate article since it actually hits on the hype and PR around the team house (you hear about it and SEE it on SotG every week) rather than its function. We didn't discuss much about the EU team house or other team houses since they were not built around a similar around of hype.
On November 29 2011 04:29 tree.hugger wrote: Confusedcrib expressed an opinion. Whether you think it's right or not is up to you. But it's simply an opinion from someone who has put in the time and effort to be able to express it in this post.
I have no problem respecting a well-argued opinion that differs from mine. However, the problem is that his argument doesn't hold up to even basic scrutiny (see my two earlier posts).
I question how much time and effort he actually put into the post. The original unedited post reads like it was written in about 5 minutes. In fact, the meme picture of Artosis directly above it makes it seem like it was copy-and-pasted from a 4chan board. Opinion piece or not, this is not something I'd expect to see on the front page of TL.
On November 29 2011 04:29 tree.hugger wrote: Confusedcrib expressed an opinion. Whether you think it's right or not is up to you. But it's simply an opinion from someone who has put in the time and effort to be able to express it in this post.
I have no problem respecting a well-argued opinion that differs from mine. However, the problem is that his argument doesn't hold up to even basic scrutiny (see my two earlier posts).
I question how much time and effort he actually put into the post. The original unedited post reads like it was written in about 5 minutes. In fact, the meme picture of Artosis directly above it makes it seem like it was copy-and-pasted from a 4chan board. Opinion piece or not, this is not something I'd expect to see on the front page of TL.
Are you seriously implying that Confusedcrib didn't put a lot of effort into writing this article?
On November 29 2011 04:55 shindigs wrote: What's interesting to consider is what if the EG article was about a slumping Korean team, or a slumping European team? Is it controversial because it hits so close to home? IMO it's because EG has one of the bigger personalities in the NA and SC2 scene, and when they boast it carries a lot of weight, so its much more heavy when they post not-so stellar results, especially when you hear a lot of hype surrounding the team house almost every week from player PR. I feel like it's not an appropriate article since it actually hits on the hype and PR around the team house (you hear about it and SEE it on SotG every week) rather than its function. We didn't discuss much about the EU team house or other team houses since they were not built around a similar around of hype.
I think this is actually an amazing point. And I for one appreciate the author at the least poking the team house with a journalistic stick, albeit, posting it in a semi related article. I'm gonna be so happy when genuine strong foreign talent practices as hard as the koreans, and the results (not wins or losses-- THE GAMES) show it. The best example was last nights GSL games. You can say + Show Spoiler +
IMMVP
lost the set, but can you say he's not playing up to par? I don't care if players show bad results, but if they show good play, I'm likely to be a fan.
JP is clearly behind this article, it was all done to generate publicity for the next episode of SotG which HAPPENS to include both TL and EG players on a regular basis. Coincidence? I think not. If you want to point the blame for this at anyone, look no further than JP McDaniel and as an extension, MLG. ... ... ... Kidding.
On November 29 2011 04:29 tree.hugger wrote:Confusedcrib expressed an opinion. Whether you think it's right or not is up to you. But it's simply an opinion from someone who has put in the time and effort to be able to express it in this post.
As Nazgul* and Hot_Bid have mentioned, there is a time and place for negative articles towards one team who actually had a pretty good MLG. I read all the TL articles and expect mostly positive and well-thought-out articles. This is the first time I've been severely disappointed in both the opinion AND the underlying reasoning of a section of an article.
Additionally, confusedcrib shows throughout his section that he has next to no understanding of the North American scene. Heck, I don't even watch the minor NA tournaments and I know all about State, dde, and others. They're pretty common names and definitely have the potential to take games and even series (Best of 3s are so volatile) off some of the higher level foreigners.
The underlying problems with the logic in the EG Team House section are massive, but let me hit on another I don't think is mentioned. Korean team houses usually have several players who you don't even know about unless you visit their TLPD. Nobody talks about them, nobody even notices when they switch teams or do anything of note. They're the ones who lose in the first round of Code A qualifiers to "no names".
And lastly, there are only a limited amount of places for players to succeed in tournaments, especially ones dominated by Koreans. No team will ever have its entire roster or even most of its roster dominate a tournament where other teams are equally represented. That's because every team has 1-3 great players, and those 1-3 great players from other teams will shut down all the other non-great players in the tournament. Where do you think the EG team would have ended up if they hadn't lost to these "disgusting" "no name" players? Probably one round higher.
On November 29 2011 05:21 GwSC wrote: JP is clearly behind this article, it was all done to generate publicity for the next episode of SotG which HAPPENS to include both TL and EG players on a regular basis. Coincidence? I think not. If you want to point the blame for this at anyone, look no further than JP McDaniel and as an extension, MLG. ... ... ... Kidding.
I expect Alex Garfield and Milkis on the next SOTG to comment on this!!!
and beating tyler, agh, drewbie, machine in groups and then select and kiwikaki is the best run in MLG this season? huh?? Good thing that prize doesn't mean anything because this is a huge headscratcher... I guess he was trying to go against the grain here?
Nice read... but if State, Gatored, Ostojiy & DDE are 'no names' i really don't understand this scene (or americans) and there over-appreciation for personalities.
It's a good thing the number of weekly cups in NA is increasing, so more people can appreciate the talent pool that's actually out there across the atlantic, instead of bitching about "undeserved"/underperforming players in the MLG pools.
EPT
