EPTThe Overseer and Zerg Scouting - Page 4
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
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Tippecanoe
United States342 Posts
On November 10 2011 17:10 Golgotha wrote: uncalled for. he is asking a very legit question. and I do agree that not having the overseer (which i now love due to the low gas cost) is going to suck. I mean i fking love the viper (used it in HOTS custom) but i dont really give a shit about it's detect ability. it doesnt work well as a detector. imo, they should keep both the overseer and the viper. lolwut? its like people dont even read the unit details. you really think paying 200 gas for a scout is okay? Implying the 200 gas is only used for scouting right? One of the fastest units in the game if not 2nd fastest. Not only is moderately tanky, but also its main use is its spells. The scouting is just an alternative benefit. Yes i do think 200 gas for a spell caster that has 2 VERY good spells that also moves fast as fuck and can scout a base in 1 second. Unlike you I tried the unit out personally so don't go around claiming people didn't read what the unit does because they disagree with you. | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On November 10 2011 17:16 Tippecanoe wrote: Implying the 200 gas is only used for scouting right? One of the fastest units in the game if not 2nd fastest. Not only is moderately tanky, but also its main use is its spells. The scouting is just an alternative benefit. Yes i do think 200 gas for a spell caster that has 2 VERY good spells that also moves fast as fuck and can scout a base in 1 second. Unlike you I tried the unit out personally so don't go around claiming people didn't read what the unit does because they disagree with you. Now when i get a lair i immediatly make overseer and check opponents base. In hots i don't see a way to get a fast scout. I guess everyone just gonna research overlord speed because i doubt people going to be sending vipers to scout at least for sure not vs. toss :D Zerg is the most reactionary race and yet it has worst scouting. I guess they will add another scout for hots then.. | ||
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Cereb
Denmark3388 Posts
I suggest we start the "Oveerseer for HoTs # 2012" campaign right now!  | ||
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Seala
Sweden118 Posts
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
On November 10 2011 21:44 Seala wrote: Get overlord speed and scout with a regular overlord, it is already the better option in alot of circumstances since it's a one time upgrade that allows you to scout easily for the rest of the game without having to pay additional gas if your overseer is lost. The problem is mostly in the timings, like a poster above said timings are very thin, overlord speed takes a full minute to research. | ||
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FirstGear
Australia185 Posts
On November 10 2011 16:44 HystericaLaughter wrote: That is such a poorly thought out post. How is this timing any different to what it was previously? 1 base dt will be no more difficult to scout without the overseer, because you scout 1 base dt with slow overlords, not overseers. Another point, although irrelevant, is that you can tell a dt/void ray rush by the sentry count of the Protoss player, you often don't need to actually see the tech structure. My point wasn't that dts will be imba, just that reliable scouting will be delayed a little relative to how it is now. I know you can scout with sacrificing overlords applying pressure or poking the front. I just figured in cluding an example as clearly flawed as it is, highlights the new delay in scouting. | ||
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KDot2
United States1213 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
Here's a cool idea for an overlord ability: for the cost of 50 gas your overlord will explode upon death and illuminate an area around him for 10 seconds. The area should be big enough you can scout far beyond the overlord's normal sight range, making sacrificing overlords a neat idea for scouting. I am a little bit worried about zerg scouting still. Even the Overseer itself isn't always good enough, since it comes so late. Zerg is good enough at reacting, especially with the larger rush distances, but it still happens a player gets caught off-guard by an attack-timing, simply because there was no way to scout it. Two-port banshee builds are a good example. You can't scout it, but if you always account for it you might end up way overcompensating for air that will never come. I do wish Blizzard would use Heart of the Swarm to address this issue, especially as they're removing the Overseer already and so need to have a look at replacing its roles. | ||
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
The general point is that Zerg scouting right when your lair pops is important. That is moment you need to make several key decisions in regard to tech and upgrades. With the reduced overseer cost and quick build time the unit was a great scouting option. Dropping a changeling or just running it through a base was the way to go. Sacking a slow ol doesnt always work and waiting for ol speed can cost you valuable seconds. This has nothing to do with detection. I almost get the feeling blizzard is removing the unit because the overall sentiment was that it wasn't ideally useful or serving the purpouse they wanted. However the point is slowly Zerg players have come to rely on this unit and scouting with Zerg is already hard, easy to deny, and very luck based. The other races all have several viable scouting options for a reasonable price, and they are taking out zergs most useful guaranteed scouting unit for that early game timing. I am not saying things won't change, but the idea of starting a dialog about Zerg HoTS scouting with what we know they are adding and removing from the game is not an unreasonable one to have. | ||
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On November 10 2011 22:34 FLuE wrote: The general point is that Zerg scouting right when your lair pops is important. That is moment you need to make several key decisions in regard to tech and upgrades. How do you think Protoss copes? For Protoss the key decision comes earlier, after the cyber core completes, and we can't really scout effectively at that point. The options we're left with are to get hallucination (delays warpgate tech which can be deadly and takes a full minute like overlord speed) or to bite the bullet and build a robo fac/stargate for observer/phoenix (which means that you've already made the decision) or a suicided unit (generally more expensive and/or less reliable than zerg options). Its not impossible but its very awkward and annoying, especially when you consider Terran can just scan. I'm not saying that I disagree with the premise here; I don't see any good reason to remove the Overseer because I think its quite an interesting little tool for Zerg to use. It should be kept. But please don't act like removing the overseer would make you the only ones who have it awkward to scout at key points. Protoss has had to deal with that exact issue for a long time now, which is why Protoss has been crying out for some kind of early harrass/scout unit (along the same principle as the Reaper). | ||
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Charon1979
Austria317 Posts
And you cant compare Zerg to Protoss. I agree that you have this kind of problems in PvT, but Z would have it in PvZ and TvZ. In the early game i have my drone scout (location, gas, proxy, maybe it lives long enough to see techstructures) then I poke with lings (unitcount, techstructures, proxy) then I sacc an Overlord (better unitcount, buildings, 1 base cheese/all-ins) when I finally get my lair I morph 1 oder 2 (post-patch) Overseers. at a later time I will get Speed for Overlords, but not as soon as my lair finishes. Why? I need the overseers for the next bundle of key timings or in the case that my Emolord got killed too early by a non telling group of units (2 marines for example). So if I have to wait for Ovispeed, thats 43 seconds more i have to wait till i can scout. Thats another 60 seconds in which my hatch is blocked. So after that I have spend 200 Gas on scouting (Speed + 2 Overseers). After having spend 100 gas on scouting in HOTS, i still lack mobile detection (in case of banshees/DTs denying my 3rd and contesting map control). I have to spend additional 200 gas (100 more than in WOL) for a unit which grants detection to another unit. So which unit will I choose? A groundcombat unit like a roach and hope it doesnt die? Dont think so. Am air unit? Better... which one? A mutalisk? While it is fast, it comes to a time where i rarely have need for Detection anymore. So whats left? The viper itself? No... an overlord. Which is erm.... a worse overseer for 100 more gas. | ||
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
On November 10 2011 17:16 Tippecanoe wrote: Implying the 200 gas is only used for scouting right? One of the fastest units in the game if not 2nd fastest. Not only is moderately tanky, but also its main use is its spells. The scouting is just an alternative benefit. Yes i do think 200 gas for a spell caster that has 2 VERY good spells that also moves fast as fuck and can scout a base in 1 second. Unlike you I tried the unit out personally so don't go around claiming people didn't read what the unit does because they disagree with you. why should we *have* to get it for scouting if we need it Costs 200 gas that can't be used for scouting (even if it's the "fastest") why would you scout with a unit like this why would you scout with a unit like this why would you scout with a unit like this On November 10 2011 22:21 Grumbels wrote: You don't have to buy vipers for detection. Spore crawlers are still excellent and available before Lair. 2 port cloak banshee. 2-3 banshee *click on spore* spore dies sooooooooooooo fast. Next clicks on queen. queen dies. or lots of dt's click on spore. not really too excellent. | ||
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BlitzerSC
Italy8800 Posts
On November 10 2011 07:10 iDONTrush wrote: Well, after a few months of reading on here I figured it is about time to post:D I searched for this topic and couldn't find anything. Allow me to begin with a scenario. I am playing Zerg on the bottom position of Xel'Naga Caverns and there is a Protoss on the top postion. I scouted that he is gathing a lot of Stalkers and Zealots so I am outside of his base with Zerglings and Banelings, keeping him in as he tried to expand. I then use the Overlord I had to the right of his base to convert into an Overseer. I then poke in to see that he is teching to Colossus. He shoots at my Overseer but I am easily able to slide out of his base without taking much damage, after Contaminating his Robotics Facility and Robotics bay to delay Colossi and dely Thermal Lance as I throw down a spire. I then poke back in the front of his base and drop a changeling. And get a good count on the Colossi. Basicly my question is, how will Zerg scout effectivly in Heart of The Swarm without the overseer? Giving up a viper for a detector? Which will be hard to seperate from the rest of your army. I mean Terran can scan and Protoss has observers, we lost our scouting unit. How can we scout like the other races can? I supose we can run lings in or swarm host locousts. But not like Terran and Protoss can just walk in. I am not asking for someone to magically save the Overseer I just need sugestions on how to scout after it is gone. Any feedback or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I just don't want to lose the Overseer and if we do I don't know how I will scout efficiantly. Thanks! -iDONTrush Just scout with your overlords ? :| I don't see any problem with zerg scouting in HOTS. | ||
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baba44713
83 Posts
Implying the 200 gas is only used for scouting right? One of the fastest units in the game if not 2nd fastest. Your logic is as faulty as it can be. Imagine if I use a car for commute, and suddenly someone switches it with a jetplane. Sure, having a jetplane is cool, I guess I can do all sort of awesome stuff with it, but if what I need for my daily bread and butter is to go to work every day, jetplane is not really convenient now is it? | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
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Nourek
Germany188 Posts
On November 11 2011 20:41 Grumbels wrote: Just deal with it, really. Yeah, detection will be a bit weaker, so what? You still have it. The HotS detection thread is over there. This is the one about Overseers being used for scouting, not detection. It's a different issue. And as I said, the main difference is one of timing, you can get overseers 43s earlier than speed overlords. Also, speed overseers for later in the game are gone as well. | ||
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ePdeLay
Australia220 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
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Mentalizor
Denmark1596 Posts
On November 10 2011 08:08 iDONTrush wrote: Zerg whines because they want the lurker. What does Blizzard do? Make it a ton better and give it to Terran. GENIUS! You refer to the hellion? Or am I missing something? | ||
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