Well, after a few months of reading on here I figured it is about time to post:D I searched for this topic and couldn't find anything.
Allow me to begin with a scenario. I am playing Zerg on the bottom position of Xel'Naga Caverns and there is a Protoss on the top postion. I scouted that he is gathing a lot of Stalkers and Zealots so I am outside of his base with Zerglings and Banelings, keeping him in as he tried to expand. I then use the Overlord I had to the right of his base to convert into an Overseer. I then poke in to see that he is teching to Colossus. He shoots at my Overseer but I am easily able to slide out of his base without taking much damage, after Contaminating his Robotics Facility and Robotics bay to delay Colossi and dely Thermal Lance as I throw down a spire. I then poke back in the front of his base and drop a changeling. And get a good count on the Colossi.
Basicly my question is, how will Zerg scout effectivly in Heart of The Swarm without the overseer? Giving up a viper for a detector? Which will be hard to seperate from the rest of your army. I mean Terran can scan and Protoss has observers, we lost our scouting unit. How can we scout like the other races can? I supose we can run lings in or swarm host locousts. But not like Terran and Protoss can just walk in.
I am not asking for someone to magically save the Overseer I just need sugestions on how to scout after it is gone.
Any feedback or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I just don't want to lose the Overseer and if we do I don't know how I will scout efficiantly. Thanks!
I use the overseer extensively every game. I'm going to miss it. Especially changelings..... Late game PvZ when you need overseers at every base for DTs, you can spam changelings as part of your macro and scout the entire map, for FREE, with ZERO SUPPLY ZERO COST units... Not to mention the cute things you can do with them (expo block, ramp block, follow an army)
I think overlord speed will be the new thing, and vipers will make them detectors when you need it. I've been trying to just get overlord speed more often (as well as burrow) because they are so cheap and worth so much. I personally hope the Viper's parasite ability works on enemy units too, that would be awesome.
On November 10 2011 07:13 Emporio wrote: Maybe you should wait for the game to come out before worrying about how you're going to scout.
thats not nice. He's asking how to scout now, in WoL, without overseers, to be ready for the expansion.
Their Parasite? Abduct? It does. I love the Overseer but usually for early DT's before there is a lot of them (before you scout them) I just use a Spore and Spine crawler pair. I could use overlords but they just arent as tough!
Well, you should consider that Zerg has an easy time taking map control. Creep spread, fast units, and Overlords everywhere should give you a pretty good idea of what's going on, even if you can't always get in their base.
As for direct scouting, Ovie speed is probably gonna be your best bet. A one-time investment of 100/100 isn't too much to ask, I think.
If you're going Mutas, you're gonna be in their base anyway so there's that.
I like the viper/detector idea. That is a cool feature that will have some unique uses being able to make a variety of units detectors. But I'm thinking the same thing. Right now, I've gotten in the habit of having an OL parked somewhere near their base that I turn into an overseer the minute I get my lair and drop in a changeling or fly it through their base. It is already hard enough to scout as zerg, but I was finding that the timing of doing that with the cheaper overseer cost was great. And if they didn't kill the overseer I just drop changlings into their base every min or so and see what is going on.
Now I'm sorta scratching my head. Is it assumed that OL speed just has to be a must now? I think a lot of zerg players have all agreed scouting can be tough at times and HoTS has done nothing that helps with that.
I'm hoping the overseer stays in the game, and perhaps just gets some new features once they realize that most players at this point are finding it valuable and needed.
I used is a lot. I am not sure why they would take it out. I feel like the game, as far as scouting goes, will be too imbalanced once the Overseer is gone. It was nice to take a peak now and again but a few stimmed marines just destroy an Overlord....quickly....
I've been thinking the same thing! On one hand it seems like they are convinced to remove the Overseer and make it much more difficult for Zerg to get detection in order to buff DTs, which cannot do much once scouted. On the other hand, it removes Zergs race specific scouting unit - undoubtedly this will have to change.
I wouldn't worry because it is very apparent that there will need to be some change before HotS release. Things are going to change a lot in the beta. Some thoughts I have had is that maybe: 1. Overlord speed upgrade will be Hatchery tech. 2. Another unit gets the ability to cast Changelings (possibly Overlords, although making all Overlords have energy could have unintended side effects). 3. Vipers are fast (not as fast as Mutas obviously :D) 4. Viper detection ability is usable on enemy units (maybe an energy decrease on the ability as well to allow for scouting more). This brings it's own problems as well - it would practically require every Zerg player to make Vipers, and in ZvP a Protoss player can destroy a Zergs offensive/defensive capabilities by using Feedback.
Those are just some random thoughts I had, would be interesting to see what other people think!
TL;DR - Don't worry, things will change in beta if it's not balanced.
On November 10 2011 07:25 iDONTrush wrote: I used is a lot. I am not sure why they would take it out. I feel like the game, as far as scouting goes, will be too imbalanced once the Overseer is gone. It was nice to take a peak now and again but a few stimmed marines just destroy an Overlord....quickly....
any race can prevent scouting.
its designed so that if a player wanted to prevent scouting at all cost, its possible (except against scan).
On November 10 2011 07:25 iDONTrush wrote: I used is a lot. I am not sure why they would take it out. I feel like the game, as far as scouting goes, will be too imbalanced once the Overseer is gone. It was nice to take a peak now and again but a few stimmed marines just destroy an Overlord....quickly....
Overlords have just as much health as Overseers do, so Marines can kill Overseers just as quickly. What's your point? I find it hard to believe that Overlords with speed are not a viable scouting option.
On November 10 2011 07:18 iDONTrush wrote: Their Parasite? Abduct? It does. I love the Overseer but usually for early DT's before there is a lot of them (before you scout them) I just use a Spore and Spine crawler pair. I could use overlords but they just arent as tough!
Abduct is the grapple.
Ocular parasite is the thing that makes something a detector.
I think overlord speed is the best bet. Those guys are fast, send 2 or 3 if youre really needing to know. 300 minerals + upgrade cost when you're on 2-3bases trying to decide what to do is not too much to ask. It also lets you get to drops which are pretty critical imo.. Late game when you have too many roaches/lings and need supply for more big units, its nice to already have scouted their base with overlords and know where you can suicide those units effectively.
On November 10 2011 07:25 iDONTrush wrote: I used is a lot. I am not sure why they would take it out. I feel like the game, as far as scouting goes, will be too imbalanced once the Overseer is gone. It was nice to take a peak now and again but a few stimmed marines just destroy an Overlord....quickly....
Overlords have just as much health as Overseers do, so Marines can kill Overseers just as quickly. What's your point? I find it hard to believe that Overlords with speed are not a viable scouting option.
On November 10 2011 07:37 iDONTrush wrote: Maybe I am missing something, but why would you want to make an enemy unit a detector? Does it drain it's energy or something.
if it granted vision of that unit and made it a detector for you, like queens could do in brood war.
TBH, I was very sad when I heard about the overseer's removal for HoTS. I think its a great unit and I do think its a bit underused. I just reached 1v1 masters and Ive been using the overseer A TON. From changelings to the occasional contamination, its a really cool unit. Hopefully with the price reduction, more zergs will start using them and blizzard will see the statistics and the usage necessary to keep the unit it.
I will admit for a very long time I couldnt give a crap about them and never made them unless I needed mobile detection but now I think theyre absolutely crucial for scouting. I feel like if the changeling gets spotted right away, you'll always be able to see unit composition, upgrades, natural saturation, potential tech.
I hope they don't remove the overseer, I don't think adding new means for detection (viper) necessarily means they have to remove the old one. I actually like the overseer.
And I also think the queen's parasite in SC1 was way cooler than what they're proposing now with the viper.
On November 10 2011 07:37 iDONTrush wrote: Maybe I am missing something, but why would you want to make an enemy unit a detector? Does it drain it's energy or something.
if it granted vision of that unit and made it a detector for you, like queens could do in brood war.
Ah I see. So they protect YOUR detector. That's nifty.
I would definitely want this, but I'm curious if it'd be too strong in the early game. If a player is careful enough, Zerg overlord scouting goes from a potluck and sacrifice to very little risk, with plenty of coverage. Few stuff early on can really chase them down, and marines won't (shouldn't) stim to kill an overlord because medivacs won't be out that early. You might have to be wary of stalkers, but queens and marines become a non-issue with early overlord speed. Even if the speed ovie does end up dying, it covered significantly more than slow ovies and had a much higher chance of providing key intel, making that 100 minerals worth so much more.
You could potentially use that to force a stim and wipe them out with lings. But most players worth their salt wouldn't stim. I think that in lower level play the Overseer is definitely underused but like Angelbelow said, it is crucial.
Why do u need to scout? Hydra will have the upgrade speed, so people will begin to make more hydralisks, and they counter everything as far as I know.
jk aside though, the game isn't even in beta yet, the problem will show itself in alpha, beta and stuff, so it will be solved pretty easily when the game actually comes out.
I am very exited for beta (and I hope I can get involved). Does anyone remember how the beta for the SC1 expansions was tested? How did they get access? And also with the early game Ovie speed that will be pretty OP because you will practicly be able to continually pass with different overlords.
On November 10 2011 07:28 ruhrohraggy wrote: I've been thinking the same thing! On one hand it seems like they are convinced to remove the Overseer and make it much more difficult for Zerg to get detection in order to buff DTs, which cannot do much once scouted. On the other hand, it removes Zergs race specific scouting unit - undoubtedly this will have to change.
I wouldn't worry because it is very apparent that there will need to be some change before HotS release. Things are going to change a lot in the beta. Some thoughts I have had is that maybe: 1. Overlord speed upgrade will be Hatchery tech. 2. Another unit gets the ability to cast Changelings (possibly Overlords, although making all Overlords have energy could have unintended side effects). 3. Vipers are fast (not as fast as Mutas obviously :D) 4. Viper detection ability is usable on enemy units (maybe an energy decrease on the ability as well to allow for scouting more). This brings it's own problems as well - it would practically require every Zerg player to make Vipers, and in ZvP a Protoss player can destroy a Zergs offensive/defensive capabilities by using Feedback.
Those are just some random thoughts I had, would be interesting to see what other people think!
TL;DR - Don't worry, things will change in beta if it's not balanced.
would be interesting if that "detection ability on enemy units" could instead function similar to a parasite from the queen in BW :S
I'm glad other people are thinking about this as well. The major problem I see with what we do know about HotS is that removing the overseer and moving detection onto the Viper as a castable buff delays both scouting AND detection for the Zerg player. Overseers allowed you to scout effectively almost immediately after the Lair was done, as well as having multiple mobile detectors. The Viper means you will have only 1 mobile detector, slightly delayed after your Lair, and have to wait for ovie speed to finish before you can effectively scout your opponent. It's a small, but very significant delay to having adequate intel and detection.
The bigger problem, however, is that given it's necessity for detection, the Viper will be an ESSENTIAL unit. This makes balancing its costs and the strength of its other abilities problematic because Blizzard intends the Viper to be a powerful siege-breaking caster. I can't imagine the developers finding a good balance between making the Viper affordable enough to get every game when you need them and at the same time powerful enough to allow the Zerg player to crush entrenched positions with Blinding Cloud and snipe essential units with Abduct.
I really hope that they revert their decision to cut the overseer, leaving it in as just a detector, without Changeling or Contaminate. That would allow them to remove the detection role from the Viper and balance it strictly as a powerful support unit. We'll see what happens....
Blizzard will probably have to make overlord speed at hatch-tech or return the overlord to detector status again. But we can only guess, it is too early.
On November 10 2011 07:49 SpaceYeti wrote: I'm glad other people are thinking about this as well. The major problem I see with what we do know about HotS is that removing the overseer and moving detection onto the Viper as a castable buff delays both scouting AND detection for the Zerg player. Overseers allowed you to scout effectively almost immediately after the Lair was done, as well as having multiple mobile detectors. The Viper means you will have only 1 mobile detector, slightly delayed after your Lair, and have to wait for ovie speed to finish before you can effectively scout your opponent. It's a small, but very significant delay to having adequate intel and detection.
The bigger problem, however, is that given it's necessity for detection, the Viper will be an ESSENTIAL unit. This makes balancing its costs and the strength of its other abilities problematic because Blizzard intends the Viper to be a powerful siege-breaking caster. I can't imagine the developers finding a good balance between making the Viper affordable enough to get every game when you need them and at the same time powerful enough to allow the Zerg player to crush entrenched positions with Blinding Cloud and snipe essential units with Abduct.
I really hope that they revert their decision to cut the overseer, leaving it in as just a detector, without Changeling or Contaminate. That would allow them to remove the detection role from the Viper and balance it strictly as a powerful support unit. We'll see what happens....
I agree entirely. It would make no sense to have a siege breaker that you have to make every single game.
well overseer was pretty much imba mid game, despite not being used by most zerg. Lategame it was okay, but a really easy target (even if zergs didn't had it in front o their army). But they changed the mechanic so you don't really need the overseer anymore in HotS. Slow ovi scout is as good, just costs you 200 minerals and 2 larva, which is still cheaper then the scan and well toss scouting is more expensive, but its constantly there. Zerg just don't need something like the overseer mid game, either they have overlords or they have the map control. Overseer is just a ultra cheap scout that throws out free ground observers and has detection.
So if you want to prepare (which is a bit pointless tbh) do it like a zerg, 6 lings and overlords ^^.
And why is the viper essential, spores work just fine even offensive. Moving spine and spore line, the horror for any observer, luckily there are no more lurkers, that would be to op xD
Terrans spend energy (which translates into less mining speed) for their scouting and detection and it costs them zero units. Protoss can send in hallucinations at the risk of losing zero units, costing only sentry energy (and the upgrade). Zerg will lose it's "zero cost" unit. Having any unit be a detector has all sorts of cool gimmicks and tricks tied to it (I wonder if a ground unit gets turned into a detector, does it still detect while burrowed?) but I guess we'll have to wait and see if all these new possibilities compensates the loss of a scouting ability that only costs energy.
Research Overlord Speed. It is just as fast as an Overseer pre-speed and you have a LOT of them. Overlords with speed can be used to deny expansions by pooping creep, can scout a base, and can be used for drops later in the game. It is slightly slower to tech to, seeing as an overseer morphs faster than Ovie Speed researches but it is definitely worth it.
As a terran I always envy that Zerg has flying supply depots that can scout.
On November 10 2011 08:14 El Caz wrote: Terrans spend energy (which translates into less mining speed) for their scouting and detection and it costs them zero units. Protoss can send in hallucinations at the risk of losing zero units, costing only sentry energy (and the upgrade). Zerg will lose it's "zero cost" unit. Having any unit be a detector has all sorts of cool gimmicks and tricks tied to it (I wonder if a ground unit gets turned into a detector, does it still detect while burrowed?) but I guess we'll have to wait and see if all these new possibilities compensates the loss of a scouting ability that only costs energy.
A scan from the Orbital is one less MULE which translates to about 270 minerals. Hallucination costs 100/100 (the same as overlord speed hmmmm). Get overlord speed. Its useful.
I would like to see perhaps the changeling kept, but moved to the Overlord at Lair tech.
Then we can replace the Overseer with the Viper, which is multiple times better, and still get the sneaky scouting info with Speed OL's and changelings.
On November 10 2011 10:04 Ridiculisk wrote: I would like to see perhaps the changeling kept, but moved to the Overlord at Lair tech.
Then we can replace the Overseer with the Viper, which is multiple times better, and still get the sneaky scouting info with Speed OL's and changelings.
Actually a good idea, imo. So it would be like creep spread is, except it would spawn a changeling.
Overlords are a seriously underrated tool by mid level players. Speed overlords can basically give you entire map vision and slow down your opponent from taking expansions, etc. Utilizing overlords will make you feel like you have a lot more control over what's going on in the game, rather than "wtf, he has 5 bases?"
I would just ask how often you find yourself using the overseer. Some people use it a ton, but I find the vast majority of players rarely do. I personally would lose very little scouting with the loss of the overseer. I'm more worried about cheap detection.
Overlords are a seriously underrated tool by mid level players. Speed overlords can basically give you entire map vision and slow down your opponent from taking expansions, etc. Utilizing overlords will make you feel like you have a lot more control over what's going on in the game, rather than "wtf, he has 5 bases?"
I absolutely agree, speed overlords are just as good as overseers and with the added bonus of dropping creep. I'm not so sure about map control outside of zvz. I find that lings provide less risky map control. I don't want to get supply blocked when protoss moves out cause his blink stalkers are faster than my speed overlords.
i just wanted to point out an inconsistency in your thread real quick... you say in a general ZvP for you, you morph the original overlord near the toss base into an overseer and send it in for a mid-game scout. cool, but you also said that you contaminate his robo bay AND facility? Firstly, you can't contaminate ANYTHING for like 2 minutes game-time after an overseer morphs, so I don't know where that is coming from... unless you are waiting a very long time to send in the scout?
if so, your best alternative is to just skip the overseer and get speed. trade off the cost of two overseers for being able to use ovvy scouts ALL GAME (not to mention the ovvy spread / creep highway / expo blocking potential)... speed is a very good mid-lategame upgrade, and even entering into the beginning of midgame when you just hit lair tech, getting ovvy speed right away isn't exactly make-or-break (unless you have already scouted a timing attack / allin - which would make speed pointless)
I think the best solution is to either move overlord speed to hatch tech or to keep the overseer after removing the spells it has.
Speed on hatch tech would open the option of scouting early if you wanted to invest the extra resources into it. You still have the option to hope you can see what you need if you don't want to spend it.
Removing the spells from the overseer is just admitting that it will not be a very interesting unit, but then you could just consider it an upgraded overlord. I find this unlikely, but it should be an option if nothing else works out.
I also really like the idea that was mentioned to allow the viper to cast the detection spell on enemy units for sight. It would need a decent range, but would allow zerg to scout pretty well if the opponent didn't want to kill the unit.
The main difference between overlord speed and an overseer is that overseers morph in 17 seconds instead of speed which takes 60 seconds. And speed overseers are even better at 2.75 speed.
I'm not too worried atm, especially at my own level, but I don't really understand why removing the overseer is planned.
Opening 14 gas, 14 pool into expo, the fastest you can get lair is 6.45 and the fastest overlord speed is completed is 7.45. Conversely a dt rush can get dts out at about 6.45. So invisible units are out a full minute before reliable scouting is available. This change opens up a whole range of 1 base all ins that aren't reliably scoutable anymore. I don't know how it will change things, but even if GM stayed the same it has the potential to change other leagues significantly.
Maybe it's a natural resistance to change, but HotS would be a lot better for me if they didn't remove any units, just need to modify them accordingly.
On November 10 2011 08:14 El Caz wrote: Terrans spend energy (which translates into less mining speed) for their scouting and detection and it costs them zero units. Protoss can send in hallucinations at the risk of losing zero units, costing only sentry energy (and the upgrade). Zerg will lose it's "zero cost" unit. Having any unit be a detector has all sorts of cool gimmicks and tricks tied to it (I wonder if a ground unit gets turned into a detector, does it still detect while burrowed?) but I guess we'll have to wait and see if all these new possibilities compensates the loss of a scouting ability that only costs energy.
A scan from the Orbital is one less MULE which translates to about 270 minerals. Hallucination costs 100/100 (the same as overlord speed hmmmm). Get overlord speed. Its useful.
A viking can chase down a overlord with speed T_T . imo they need to increase the upgraded speed or the base speed.
On November 10 2011 11:58 FirstGear wrote: Opening 14 gas, 14 pool into expo, the fastest you can get lair is 6.45 and the fastest overlord speed is completed is 7.45. Conversely a dt rush can get dts out at about 6.45. So invisible units are out a full minute before reliable scouting is available. This change opens up a whole range of 1 base all ins that aren't reliably scoutable anymore. I don't know how it will change things, but even if GM stayed the same it has the potential to change other leagues significantly.
That is such a poorly thought out post. How is this timing any different to what it was previously?
1 base dt will be no more difficult to scout without the overseer, because you scout 1 base dt with slow overlords, not overseers. Another point, although irrelevant, is that you can tell a dt/void ray rush by the sentry count of the Protoss player, you often don't need to actually see the tech structure.
I agree with you in some situations, but on a map like Xel' Naga scouting with a speed overlord will show his entire main assuming under 5 Stalkers are there.
I hope they will just leave overseer in hots. I use it every game cause now it's quite cheap and i use changelings all the time to scout - i think it's cool.
On November 10 2011 16:54 Tippecanoe wrote: Vipers move at 3.75 speed and you can make them the same time you can make an overseer AND they are useful because they are real spell casters.
Why and where is the issue of scouting?
They cost 200 gas, you need 2 if you want to have a viper with detection, and you can't sacrifice a 200 gas unit to scout like you do with an overseer. People are not saying the viper is bad, it's all about timing. It delays scouting of the opponents base and increases the cost, and it delays mobile detection by a lot. I don't see them keeping it like this.
On November 10 2011 07:13 Emporio wrote: Maybe you should wait for the game to come out before worrying about how you're going to scout.
uncalled for. he is asking a very legit question. and I do agree that not having the overseer (which i now love due to the low gas cost) is going to suck. I mean i fking love the viper (used it in HOTS custom) but i dont really give a shit about it's detect ability. it doesnt work well as a detector. imo, they should keep both the overseer and the viper.
On November 10 2011 16:54 Tippecanoe wrote: Vipers move at 3.75 speed and you can make them the same time you can make an overseer AND they are useful because they are real spell casters.
Why and where is the issue of scouting?
lolwut? its like people dont even read the unit details. you really think paying 200 gas for a scout is okay?
The usual way I see Zergs scout me (NA Masters Protoss, so kind of midway on the skill spectrum) is by sacrificing Overlords. I very rarely see Overseers. I don't think you'll have a problem, just get used to picking good movement paths for your Ovies. As for why they do that, I couldn't tell you. I think it's a combination of wanting an early scout and late Lair and valuing gas way over minerals.
On November 10 2011 07:13 Emporio wrote: Maybe you should wait for the game to come out before worrying about how you're going to scout.
uncalled for. he is asking a very legit question. and I do agree that not having the overseer (which i now love due to the low gas cost) is going to suck. I mean i fking love the viper (used it in HOTS custom) but i dont really give a shit about it's detect ability. it doesnt work well as a detector. imo, they should keep both the overseer and the viper.
On November 10 2011 16:54 Tippecanoe wrote: Vipers move at 3.75 speed and you can make them the same time you can make an overseer AND they are useful because they are real spell casters.
Why and where is the issue of scouting?
lolwut? its like people dont even read the unit details. you really think paying 200 gas for a scout is okay?
Implying the 200 gas is only used for scouting right?
One of the fastest units in the game if not 2nd fastest.
Not only is moderately tanky, but also its main use is its spells. The scouting is just an alternative benefit.
Yes i do think 200 gas for a spell caster that has 2 VERY good spells that also moves fast as fuck and can scout a base in 1 second.
Unlike you I tried the unit out personally so don't go around claiming people didn't read what the unit does because they disagree with you.
On November 10 2011 07:13 Emporio wrote: Maybe you should wait for the game to come out before worrying about how you're going to scout.
uncalled for. he is asking a very legit question. and I do agree that not having the overseer (which i now love due to the low gas cost) is going to suck. I mean i fking love the viper (used it in HOTS custom) but i dont really give a shit about it's detect ability. it doesnt work well as a detector. imo, they should keep both the overseer and the viper.
On November 10 2011 16:54 Tippecanoe wrote: Vipers move at 3.75 speed and you can make them the same time you can make an overseer AND they are useful because they are real spell casters.
Why and where is the issue of scouting?
lolwut? its like people dont even read the unit details. you really think paying 200 gas for a scout is okay?
Implying the 200 gas is only used for scouting right?
One of the fastest units in the game if not 2nd fastest.
Not only is moderately tanky, but also its main use is its spells. The scouting is just an alternative benefit.
Yes i do think 200 gas for a spell caster that has 2 VERY good spells that also moves fast as fuck and can scout a base in 1 second.
Unlike you I tried the unit out personally so don't go around claiming people didn't read what the unit does because they disagree with you.
Now when i get a lair i immediatly make overseer and check opponents base. In hots i don't see a way to get a fast scout. I guess everyone just gonna research overlord speed because i doubt people going to be sending vipers to scout at least for sure not vs. toss :D
Zerg is the most reactionary race and yet it has worst scouting. I guess they will add another scout for hots then..
Great post! Right now I have some very thin timings vs terran where I have to overseer scout as soon as I hit lair and its also extremely important for me in zvz to scout for a spire or infestation pit and the time I'd take to get overlord speed would be a big issue....
I suggest we start the "Oveerseer for HoTs # 2012" campaign right now!
Get overlord speed and scout with a regular overlord, it is already the better option in alot of circumstances since it's a one time upgrade that allows you to scout easily for the rest of the game without having to pay additional gas if your overseer is lost.
On November 10 2011 21:44 Seala wrote: Get overlord speed and scout with a regular overlord, it is already the better option in alot of circumstances since it's a one time upgrade that allows you to scout easily for the rest of the game without having to pay additional gas if your overseer is lost.
The problem is mostly in the timings, like a poster above said timings are very thin, overlord speed takes a full minute to research.
On November 10 2011 11:58 FirstGear wrote: Opening 14 gas, 14 pool into expo, the fastest you can get lair is 6.45 and the fastest overlord speed is completed is 7.45. Conversely a dt rush can get dts out at about 6.45. So invisible units are out a full minute before reliable scouting is available. This change opens up a whole range of 1 base all ins that aren't reliably scoutable anymore. I don't know how it will change things, but even if GM stayed the same it has the potential to change other leagues significantly.
That is such a poorly thought out post. How is this timing any different to what it was previously?
1 base dt will be no more difficult to scout without the overseer, because you scout 1 base dt with slow overlords, not overseers. Another point, although irrelevant, is that you can tell a dt/void ray rush by the sentry count of the Protoss player, you often don't need to actually see the tech structure.
My point wasn't that dts will be imba, just that reliable scouting will be delayed a little relative to how it is now. I know you can scout with sacrificing overlords applying pressure or poking the front. I just figured in cluding an example as clearly flawed as it is, highlights the new delay in scouting.
You don't have to buy vipers for detection. Spore crawlers are still excellent and available before Lair.
Here's a cool idea for an overlord ability: for the cost of 50 gas your overlord will explode upon death and illuminate an area around him for 10 seconds. The area should be big enough you can scout far beyond the overlord's normal sight range, making sacrificing overlords a neat idea for scouting.
I am a little bit worried about zerg scouting still. Even the Overseer itself isn't always good enough, since it comes so late. Zerg is good enough at reacting, especially with the larger rush distances, but it still happens a player gets caught off-guard by an attack-timing, simply because there was no way to scout it. Two-port banshee builds are a good example. You can't scout it, but if you always account for it you might end up way overcompensating for air that will never come. I do wish Blizzard would use Heart of the Swarm to address this issue, especially as they're removing the Overseer already and so need to have a look at replacing its roles.
It is frustrating when people either don't read the op, or don't play Zerg and then respond in a completely irrelevant way.
The general point is that Zerg scouting right when your lair pops is important. That is moment you need to make several key decisions in regard to tech and upgrades. With the reduced overseer cost and quick build time the unit was a great scouting option. Dropping a changeling or just running it through a base was the way to go. Sacking a slow ol doesnt always work and waiting for ol speed can cost you valuable seconds.
This has nothing to do with detection.
I almost get the feeling blizzard is removing the unit because the overall sentiment was that it wasn't ideally useful or serving the purpouse they wanted. However the point is slowly Zerg players have come to rely on this unit and scouting with Zerg is already hard, easy to deny, and very luck based. The other races all have several viable scouting options for a reasonable price, and they are taking out zergs most useful guaranteed scouting unit for that early game timing.
I am not saying things won't change, but the idea of starting a dialog about Zerg HoTS scouting with what we know they are adding and removing from the game is not an unreasonable one to have.
On November 10 2011 22:34 FLuE wrote: The general point is that Zerg scouting right when your lair pops is important. That is moment you need to make several key decisions in regard to tech and upgrades.
How do you think Protoss copes? For Protoss the key decision comes earlier, after the cyber core completes, and we can't really scout effectively at that point. The options we're left with are to get hallucination (delays warpgate tech which can be deadly and takes a full minute like overlord speed) or to bite the bullet and build a robo fac/stargate for observer/phoenix (which means that you've already made the decision) or a suicided unit (generally more expensive and/or less reliable than zerg options).
Its not impossible but its very awkward and annoying, especially when you consider Terran can just scan.
I'm not saying that I disagree with the premise here; I don't see any good reason to remove the Overseer because I think its quite an interesting little tool for Zerg to use. It should be kept. But please don't act like removing the overseer would make you the only ones who have it awkward to scout at key points. Protoss has had to deal with that exact issue for a long time now, which is why Protoss has been crying out for some kind of early harrass/scout unit (along the same principle as the Reaper).
You cant just compare early game scouting to midgame scouting. And you cant compare Zerg to Protoss.
I agree that you have this kind of problems in PvT, but Z would have it in PvZ and TvZ.
In the early game i have my drone scout (location, gas, proxy, maybe it lives long enough to see techstructures) then I poke with lings (unitcount, techstructures, proxy) then I sacc an Overlord (better unitcount, buildings, 1 base cheese/all-ins) when I finally get my lair I morph 1 oder 2 (post-patch) Overseers. at a later time I will get Speed for Overlords, but not as soon as my lair finishes.
Why?
I need the overseers for the next bundle of key timings or in the case that my Emolord got killed too early by a non telling group of units (2 marines for example). So if I have to wait for Ovispeed, thats 43 seconds more i have to wait till i can scout. Thats another 60 seconds in which my hatch is blocked.
So after that I have spend 200 Gas on scouting (Speed + 2 Overseers). After having spend 100 gas on scouting in HOTS, i still lack mobile detection (in case of banshees/DTs denying my 3rd and contesting map control). I have to spend additional 200 gas (100 more than in WOL) for a unit which grants detection to another unit. So which unit will I choose? A groundcombat unit like a roach and hope it doesnt die? Dont think so. Am air unit? Better... which one? A mutalisk? While it is fast, it comes to a time where i rarely have need for Detection anymore. So whats left? The viper itself? No... an overlord. Which is erm.... a worse overseer for 100 more gas.
On November 10 2011 07:13 Emporio wrote: Maybe you should wait for the game to come out before worrying about how you're going to scout.
uncalled for. he is asking a very legit question. and I do agree that not having the overseer (which i now love due to the low gas cost) is going to suck. I mean i fking love the viper (used it in HOTS custom) but i dont really give a shit about it's detect ability. it doesnt work well as a detector. imo, they should keep both the overseer and the viper.
On November 10 2011 16:54 Tippecanoe wrote: Vipers move at 3.75 speed and you can make them the same time you can make an overseer AND they are useful because they are real spell casters.
Why and where is the issue of scouting?
lolwut? its like people dont even read the unit details. you really think paying 200 gas for a scout is okay?
Implying the 200 gas is only used for scouting right?
One of the fastest units in the game if not 2nd fastest.
Not only is moderately tanky, but also its main use is its spells. The scouting is just an alternative benefit.
Yes i do think 200 gas for a spell caster that has 2 VERY good spells that also moves fast as fuck and can scout a base in 1 second.
Unlike you I tried the unit out personally so don't go around claiming people didn't read what the unit does because they disagree with you.
why should we *have* to get it for scouting if we need it
Costs 200 gas that can't be used for scouting (even if it's the "fastest")
why would you scout with a unit like this
why would you scout with a unit like this
why would you scout with a unit like this
On November 10 2011 22:21 Grumbels wrote: You don't have to buy vipers for detection. Spore crawlers are still excellent and available before Lair.
2 port cloak banshee. 2-3 banshee *click on spore* spore dies sooooooooooooo fast. Next clicks on queen. queen dies.
On November 10 2011 07:10 iDONTrush wrote: Well, after a few months of reading on here I figured it is about time to post:D I searched for this topic and couldn't find anything.
Allow me to begin with a scenario. I am playing Zerg on the bottom position of Xel'Naga Caverns and there is a Protoss on the top postion. I scouted that he is gathing a lot of Stalkers and Zealots so I am outside of his base with Zerglings and Banelings, keeping him in as he tried to expand. I then use the Overlord I had to the right of his base to convert into an Overseer. I then poke in to see that he is teching to Colossus. He shoots at my Overseer but I am easily able to slide out of his base without taking much damage, after Contaminating his Robotics Facility and Robotics bay to delay Colossi and dely Thermal Lance as I throw down a spire. I then poke back in the front of his base and drop a changeling. And get a good count on the Colossi.
Basicly my question is, how will Zerg scout effectivly in Heart of The Swarm without the overseer? Giving up a viper for a detector? Which will be hard to seperate from the rest of your army. I mean Terran can scan and Protoss has observers, we lost our scouting unit. How can we scout like the other races can? I supose we can run lings in or swarm host locousts. But not like Terran and Protoss can just walk in.
I am not asking for someone to magically save the Overseer I just need sugestions on how to scout after it is gone.
Any feedback or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I just don't want to lose the Overseer and if we do I don't know how I will scout efficiantly. Thanks!
-iDONTrush
Just scout with your overlords ? :|
I don't see any problem with zerg scouting in HOTS.
Implying the 200 gas is only used for scouting right?
One of the fastest units in the game if not 2nd fastest.
Your logic is as faulty as it can be.
Imagine if I use a car for commute, and suddenly someone switches it with a jetplane. Sure, having a jetplane is cool, I guess I can do all sort of awesome stuff with it, but if what I need for my daily bread and butter is to go to work every day, jetplane is not really convenient now is it?
On November 11 2011 20:41 Grumbels wrote: Just deal with it, really. Yeah, detection will be a bit weaker, so what? You still have it.
The HotS detection thread is over there.
This is the one about Overseers being used for scouting, not detection. It's a different issue. And as I said, the main difference is one of timing, you can get overseers 43s earlier than speed overlords.
Also, speed overseers for later in the game are gone as well.
Another thing to consider: maybe with the new units and mechanics, it won't be that necessary for zerg to scout anymore and they will have some builds that are fairly resilient to whatever the opponent can throw at them.
On November 10 2011 08:08 iDONTrush wrote: Zerg whines because they want the lurker. What does Blizzard do? Make it a ton better and give it to Terran. GENIUS!
You refer to the hellion? Or am I missing something?
On November 10 2011 08:08 iDONTrush wrote: Zerg whines because they want the lurker. What does Blizzard do? Make it a ton better and give it to Terran. GENIUS!
You refer to the hellion? Or am I missing something?
On November 10 2011 07:10 iDONTrush wrote: Well, after a few months of reading on here I figured it is about time to post:D I searched for this topic and couldn't find anything.
Allow me to begin with a scenario. I am playing Zerg on the bottom position of Xel'Naga Caverns and there is a Protoss on the top postion. I scouted that he is gathing a lot of Stalkers and Zealots so I am outside of his base with Zerglings and Banelings, keeping him in as he tried to expand. I then use the Overlord I had to the right of his base to convert into an Overseer. I then poke in to see that he is teching to Colossus. He shoots at my Overseer but I am easily able to slide out of his base without taking much damage, after Contaminating his Robotics Facility and Robotics bay to delay Colossi and dely Thermal Lance as I throw down a spire. I then poke back in the front of his base and drop a changeling. And get a good count on the Colossi.
Basicly my question is, how will Zerg scout effectivly in Heart of The Swarm without the overseer? Giving up a viper for a detector? Which will be hard to seperate from the rest of your army. I mean Terran can scan and Protoss has observers, we lost our scouting unit. How can we scout like the other races can? I supose we can run lings in or swarm host locousts. But not like Terran and Protoss can just walk in.
I am not asking for someone to magically save the Overseer I just need sugestions on how to scout after it is gone.
Any feedback or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I just don't want to lose the Overseer and if we do I don't know how I will scout efficiantly. Thanks!
-iDONTrush
overlord speed.
you needed lair for overseer. you need lair for ovie speed. ovie speed is 150/150. it affects all your overlords.
when you're scouting at a time when you are scouting for colossus count, it's not so early in the game that it affects timings. zergs were always scouting with slow overlords at 6,7 minutes anyway.
U can just scout with a viper? I think it flies fairly quick and you can build it the second ur lair finishes. I agree that the overseer is better for scouting then the viper etc. But what do u want more? An allround support unit, or a unit that is only useful for scouting in midgame?
On November 11 2011 21:58 Jakkerr wrote: U can just scout with a viper? I think it flies fairly quick and you can build it the second ur lair finishes. I agree that the overseer is better for scouting then the viper etc. But what do u want more? An allround support unit, or a unit that is only useful for scouting in midgame?
You want to fly your 100/200 caster unit into your opponents base? Please think before posting.....
On November 10 2011 17:13 Acritter wrote: The usual way I see Zergs scout me (NA Masters Protoss, so kind of midway on the skill spectrum) is by sacrificing Overlords. I very rarely see Overseers. I don't think you'll have a problem, just get used to picking good movement paths for your Ovies. As for why they do that, I couldn't tell you. I think it's a combination of wanting an early scout and late Lair and valuing gas way over minerals.
A lot of good players deny the early slowoverlord then how do you scout b4 lair? Sometimes lair doesn't come into play until 9 minutes, then you would need to wait for ovi speed to research and by that time 20 different allins could be coming your way.
On November 10 2011 08:08 iDONTrush wrote: Zerg whines because they want the lurker. What does Blizzard do? Make it a ton better and give it to Terran. GENIUS!
You refer to the hellion? Or am I missing something?
He meant the shredder
On November 11 2011 21:17 ZenithM wrote: Another thing to consider: maybe with the new units and mechanics, it won't be that necessary for zerg to scout anymore and they will have some builds that are fairly resilient to whatever the opponent can throw at them.
There arent any changes to zerg that affect the early game. Bane burrowed movement, hydra speed and ultra burrow charge are all hive. Viper is lair tech, the swarm host is infestor tech and corruptor syphon needs a spire.
On November 10 2011 16:54 Tippecanoe wrote: Vipers move at 3.75 speed and you can make them the same time you can make an overseer AND they are useful because they are real spell casters.
Why and where is the issue of scouting?
Where does this come from? The video in the blizzcon presentation showed the viper moving pretty damn slowly. Thats also what I'd heard from people who went.
On November 10 2011 22:34 FLuE wrote: The general point is that Zerg scouting right when your lair pops is important. That is moment you need to make several key decisions in regard to tech and upgrades.
How do you think Protoss copes? For Protoss the key decision comes earlier, after the cyber core completes, and we can't really scout effectively at that point. The options we're left with are to get hallucination (delays warpgate tech which can be deadly and takes a full minute like overlord speed) or to bite the bullet and build a robo fac/stargate for observer/phoenix (which means that you've already made the decision) or a suicided unit (generally more expensive and/or less reliable than zerg options).
Its not impossible but its very awkward and annoying, especially when you consider Terran can just scan.
I'm not saying that I disagree with the premise here; I don't see any good reason to remove the Overseer because I think its quite an interesting little tool for Zerg to use. It should be kept. But please don't act like removing the overseer would make you the only ones who have it awkward to scout at key points. Protoss has had to deal with that exact issue for a long time now, which is why Protoss has been crying out for some kind of early harrass/scout unit (along the same principle as the Reaper).
Great post! This is so true! Protoss is in dire need of something like this that doesn't come after you've chosen your tech! Just look at pvp. Alot of players feel it's abit coinflippy regarding which tech to choose after the initial gateway tech which often resultet in one guy getting an advantages for no other reason than the tech he randomly selected vs the other guy's tech based on little to no information...
This is exactly why Zerg players don't want to lose the overseer - In my opinion blizzard should working towards giving all races this option of somewhat early scouting and preferably it should be rather cheap too.
<deleted - maybe i should of read opp more closley>
I also dont think overseeer or cruiser shuold be removed.
What made starcraft good was the systematic exploration of variations on a theme, however the idea of starcraft is embodied in units like the overseer and cruiser.
Taking them out would kinda suck imo ... id miss them a great deal.
I disagree with all races having the ability to scout - or do anything tbh ... 2/3 races shoudl be able to do things the other should have something else - possibly unrelated - that makes them better in another way.
I do accept that having to build robo as protoss kinda sucks - but then you no longer have KA so its not like a full gateway only composition is ever a decent long term plan. But then the protoss mobile detection is cloaked. Anyway protoss needs more units imo.
Anyway protoss can hallucinate phoneix - given that immortals are becomming more popular the value of hallucinating them will go up also.
SCBW vets know that Ovie Speed is the way to go. Having said that.. in SCBW ovie had detection w/o any sort of upgrade.. So to compensate.. have your viper make your fast ovie a detector and go back to the old school way of doing things.
Then for protoss maybe we'll see a new 'bisu build' of tempest+DT instead of Sair/DT..
I think we (zerg players) will just end up getting the overlord speed upgrade as soon as lair finishes. The upgrade is fast enougth so you can spot critical tech in time.
On November 11 2011 01:31 Charon1979 wrote: You cant just compare early game scouting to midgame scouting. And you cant compare Zerg to Protoss.
I never said you could. My point is entirely that he was making a huge deal about Zerg having to make a massive tech decision after Lair. Protoss has to do the exact same thing after cyber core and with (arguably) fewer options and possibilities to scout. So acting like difficulty of scouting right before a major tech decision is just a Zerg problem is rather blinkered.
I agree that you have this kind of problems in PvT, but Z would have it in PvZ and TvZ.
For the record you only need a small handful of lings to surround, block and kill anything that a Protoss is likely to "poke" with into your base as a Zerg. So actually its PvT, PvZ and even PvP (because you're both getting tech at the same time).
On November 10 2011 22:34 FLuE wrote: The general point is that Zerg scouting right when your lair pops is important. That is moment you need to make several key decisions in regard to tech and upgrades.
How do you think Protoss copes? For Protoss the key decision comes earlier, after the cyber core completes, and we can't really scout effectively at that point. The options we're left with are to get hallucination (delays warpgate tech which can be deadly and takes a full minute like overlord speed) or to bite the bullet and build a robo fac/stargate for observer/phoenix (which means that you've already made the decision) or a suicided unit (generally more expensive and/or less reliable than zerg options).
Its not impossible but its very awkward and annoying, especially when you consider Terran can just scan.
I'm not saying that I disagree with the premise here; I don't see any good reason to remove the Overseer because I think its quite an interesting little tool for Zerg to use. It should be kept. But please don't act like removing the overseer would make you the only ones who have it awkward to scout at key points. Protoss has had to deal with that exact issue for a long time now, which is why Protoss has been crying out for some kind of early harrass/scout unit (along the same principle as the Reaper).
Great post! This is so true! Protoss is in dire need of something like this that doesn't come after you've chosen your tech! Just look at pvp. Alot of players feel it's abit coinflippy regarding which tech to choose after the initial gateway tech which often resultet in one guy getting an advantages for no other reason than the tech he randomly selected vs the other guy's tech based on little to no information...
This is exactly why Zerg players don't want to lose the overseer - In my opinion blizzard should working towards giving all races this option of somewhat early scouting and preferably it should be rather cheap too.
Thanks, and I quite agree. Zerg shouldn't lose the Overseer. I don't think they realise what a huge pain not having any decent scouting at the right time is for Protoss; otherwise they wouldn't be considering taking away one of Zerg's most effective tools for it.
On November 11 2011 21:58 Jakkerr wrote: U can just scout with a viper? I think it flies fairly quick and you can build it the second ur lair finishes. I agree that the overseer is better for scouting then the viper etc. But what do u want more? An allround support unit, or a unit that is only useful for scouting in midgame?
You want to fly your 100/200 caster unit into your opponents base? Please think before posting.....
As I said, what do u want more, an allround air support unit or an air scouter. If u don't wanna use it for scouting that's fine, but it is replacing the overseer. Upgrade overlord speed then I guess
As a zerg player I do fear that without the overseer I will be at a great loss. Having the ability to scout, plant spies (changelings) AND delay important tech from my opponent makes the overseer a very valuable unit to the zerg arsenal. I understand that the overseer, and all it's uses, may be underused at this point in the game but maybe it just needs time to be truly discovered as an essential unit. I feel like maybe the overseer should be left alone for at least the early stages of the HOTS beta so we can really understand whether or not it is a valuable unit for us zergies. At the same time I agree with all of the Viper's uses, but maybe removing its detection ability (while keeping the overseer) would be a beneficial choice for the zerg race. That being said I have no experience with HOTS thus far and so I can't make a completely accurate prediction on how the balance of the game will play out, I only express my own fears.
On November 11 2011 21:58 Jakkerr wrote: U can just scout with a viper? I think it flies fairly quick and you can build it the second ur lair finishes. I agree that the overseer is better for scouting then the viper etc. But what do u want more? An allround support unit, or a unit that is only useful for scouting in midgame?
You want to fly your 100/200 caster unit into your opponents base? Please think before posting.....
lol. You don't even know what the Viper's final hitpoint, armor or speed values will be, and you suggest anyone who scouts with a viper will send them straight into stalkers/marines with absolutely no ledges/open air to hide behind.
Even now with overseer zerg has really bad scouting, especially early game if opponent wants to hide something he always can. Without overseer it will become even worse cause you won't be able to get overseer asap after the lair. Zerg definitely needs some sort of early scouting option, maybe overlord speed at hatch tech or something, because now ZvT and ZvP is just a coinflip.
since toss have less good early game scouting abilities then zerg, i think zerg will be fine ;o. They should make workers be able to outmicro lings again with turning, only off creep though. And its nice how people just ignore the fact that map control is a given right for zerg in the early game, where the other races have to stick to their main island. (hellions just can take the map control if you let them do it). So zerg can't scout the terran or toss main, is it needed ? not really, you want the evo chamber anyway. If you want to cut corners you use a normal overlord, because if you cut corners lair is far far away. And remember you have map control, you will see if they move out and have tons of time prepare. Scouting is different for each race but no race really is behind the other when it comes to scouting. Well except if you let the terran drop a proxy racks near your bases to scout you (cheaper then scan, will see more and can build units when home hehe)
I guess their point to remove it was because the overseer is a bit imba for one point. They cost no supply, can drop units that make a more annoying wall then workers on hold position, and can deny production forever. (hehe i used to do that before the overseer change). The other point is if there are cloaked units, they are so easily sniped that you just need way more, even with a range of 10 they die quiet fast. (though i love to bait people into sniping them just to find out i have more in my back, so they lose around 600 resources vs 100).
As for scan, not using the first 100 energy on mules is like cutting worker production early game to scout. And if you want to scout with scan, you need alteast 2 scans against a good zerg. But nowadays zergs are really nice to terrans and let them stand in front of their base so they could scout any ground based attack hehe.
Well there is lots of more to say about why how it is now is so good. But that would make the post to long. So i just say mind games make the game fun and having to judge by what you see is a skill that divides good and bad players.
I think in HotS when the Overseer gets removed we will have to put Oviespeed on the hatchery seeing as in most match ups we already delay our Lair a lot. Either that or we have to speed up us getting our Lair and immediately starting a 50/50 upgrade like it was before, but I don't like that option.
100 minerals and 100 gas is a lot to invest in just scouting, but if that is our only option I think it would be best to put it on hatch tech and hell if it turns out to be OP ramp up the costs/make it longer to research or make races like Protoss less reliant on not getting scouted for their builds to work at all.
On December 04 2011 22:20 FeyFey wrote: since toss have less good early game scouting abilities then zerg, i think zerg will be fine ;o. They should make workers be able to outmicro lings again with turning, only off creep though. And its nice how people just ignore the fact that map control is a given right for zerg in the early game, where the other races have to stick to their main island. (hellions just can take the map control if you let them do it). So zerg can't scout the terran or toss main, is it needed ? not really, you want the evo chamber anyway. If you want to cut corners you use a normal overlord, because if you cut corners lair is far far away. And remember you have map control, you will see if they move out and have tons of time prepare. Scouting is different for each race but no race really is behind the other when it comes to scouting. Well except if you let the terran drop a proxy racks near your bases to scout you (cheaper then scan, will see more and can build units when home hehe)
I guess their point to remove it was because the overseer is a bit imba for one point. They cost no supply, can drop units that make a more annoying wall then workers on hold position, and can deny production forever. (hehe i used to do that before the overseer change). The other point is if there are cloaked units, they are so easily sniped that you just need way more, even with a range of 10 they die quiet fast. (though i love to bait people into sniping them just to find out i have more in my back, so they lose around 600 resources vs 100).
As for scan, not using the first 100 energy on mules is like cutting worker production early game to scout. And if you want to scout with scan, you need alteast 2 scans against a good zerg. But nowadays zergs are really nice to terrans and let them stand in front of their base so they could scout any ground based attack hehe.
Well there is lots of more to say about why how it is now is so good. But that would make the post to long. So i just say mind games make the game fun and having to judge by what you see is a skill that divides good and bad players.
you can't compare toss scouting with zerg scouting. That's 2 different races and both have different weaknesses.
Zerg has map control vs. terran but only after the mutas are out. If terran get hellions then zerg is completelly in the dark. You don't know what's comming, maybe it's tank push, maybe 20 hellion allin, maybe 2 port banshee allin, maybe huge medivac drop or maybe triple expand. All of those things have different responses, and if you say that scouting information is not needed for zerg then you don't know what you are talking about. As protoss you don't need need to worry about certain things like 20 hellion allin and your available anti-air is much better vs. banshees than zerg's queens and useless spores. What i want to say is that races are different so scouting must be different as well.
And vs. toss it's not that harsh, but still when toss hides their stuff you can't be ready for everything. Suddenly 4 voids + 2 phoenix flying into your main usually costs you a game. To defend this 1 spore at each base is not even enough, you need to have 2 spores one near another and 2 queens at each base, and who is going to have all that stuff without knowing what is comming?
I can see some real benefits for zerg detection with this new ability. I always have an issue with getting my overseers sniped when fighting an army with cloaked units. I can see burrow move roaches with detection being a fantastic way to keep a detector alive. Unless they don't allow a burrowed unit to detect. I think ol speed will be a must. This could lead to more zerg drop play.
EPT
