EPTOn November 11 2011 21:30 Mentalizor wrote:
You refer to the hellion? Or am I missing something?
You refer to the hellion? Or am I missing something?
Maybe he means the shredder?
The Overseer and Zerg Scouting - Page 5
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nam nam
Sweden4672 Posts
Maybe he means the shredder? | ||
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zeehar
Korea (South)3804 Posts
On November 10 2011 07:10 iDONTrush wrote: Well, after a few months of reading on here I figured it is about time to post:D I searched for this topic and couldn't find anything. Allow me to begin with a scenario. I am playing Zerg on the bottom position of Xel'Naga Caverns and there is a Protoss on the top postion. I scouted that he is gathing a lot of Stalkers and Zealots so I am outside of his base with Zerglings and Banelings, keeping him in as he tried to expand. I then use the Overlord I had to the right of his base to convert into an Overseer. I then poke in to see that he is teching to Colossus. He shoots at my Overseer but I am easily able to slide out of his base without taking much damage, after Contaminating his Robotics Facility and Robotics bay to delay Colossi and dely Thermal Lance as I throw down a spire. I then poke back in the front of his base and drop a changeling. And get a good count on the Colossi. Basicly my question is, how will Zerg scout effectivly in Heart of The Swarm without the overseer? Giving up a viper for a detector? Which will be hard to seperate from the rest of your army. I mean Terran can scan and Protoss has observers, we lost our scouting unit. How can we scout like the other races can? I supose we can run lings in or swarm host locousts. But not like Terran and Protoss can just walk in. I am not asking for someone to magically save the Overseer I just need sugestions on how to scout after it is gone. Any feedback or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I just don't want to lose the Overseer and if we do I don't know how I will scout efficiantly. Thanks! -iDONTrush overlord speed. you needed lair for overseer. you need lair for ovie speed. ovie speed is 150/150. it affects all your overlords. when you're scouting at a time when you are scouting for colossus count, it's not so early in the game that it affects timings. zergs were always scouting with slow overlords at 6,7 minutes anyway. /end thread | ||
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Jakkerr
Netherlands2549 Posts
I think it flies fairly quick and you can build it the second ur lair finishes. I agree that the overseer is better for scouting then the viper etc. But what do u want more? An allround support unit, or a unit that is only useful for scouting in midgame? | ||
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zeehar
Korea (South)3804 Posts
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PresenceSc2
Australia4032 Posts
On November 11 2011 21:58 Jakkerr wrote: U can just scout with a viper? I think it flies fairly quick and you can build it the second ur lair finishes. I agree that the overseer is better for scouting then the viper etc. But what do u want more? An allround support unit, or a unit that is only useful for scouting in midgame? You want to fly your 100/200 caster unit into your opponents base? Please think before posting..... | ||
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PresenceSc2
Australia4032 Posts
On November 10 2011 17:13 Acritter wrote: The usual way I see Zergs scout me (NA Masters Protoss, so kind of midway on the skill spectrum) is by sacrificing Overlords. I very rarely see Overseers. I don't think you'll have a problem, just get used to picking good movement paths for your Ovies. As for why they do that, I couldn't tell you. I think it's a combination of wanting an early scout and late Lair and valuing gas way over minerals. A lot of good players deny the early slowoverlord then how do you scout b4 lair? Sometimes lair doesn't come into play until 9 minutes, then you would need to wait for ovi speed to research and by that time 20 different allins could be coming your way. | ||
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FirstGear
Australia185 Posts
On November 11 2011 21:30 Mentalizor wrote: You refer to the hellion? Or am I missing something? He meant the shredder On November 11 2011 21:17 ZenithM wrote: Another thing to consider: maybe with the new units and mechanics, it won't be that necessary for zerg to scout anymore and they will have some builds that are fairly resilient to whatever the opponent can throw at them. There arent any changes to zerg that affect the early game. Bane burrowed movement, hydra speed and ultra burrow charge are all hive. Viper is lair tech, the swarm host is infestor tech and corruptor syphon needs a spire. On November 10 2011 16:54 Tippecanoe wrote: Vipers move at 3.75 speed and you can make them the same time you can make an overseer AND they are useful because they are real spell casters. Why and where is the issue of scouting? Where does this come from? The video in the blizzcon presentation showed the viper moving pretty damn slowly. Thats also what I'd heard from people who went. - 1:50 into the video for reference. | ||
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Cereb
Denmark3388 Posts
On November 11 2011 00:55 Lightspeaker wrote: How do you think Protoss copes? For Protoss the key decision comes earlier, after the cyber core completes, and we can't really scout effectively at that point. The options we're left with are to get hallucination (delays warpgate tech which can be deadly and takes a full minute like overlord speed) or to bite the bullet and build a robo fac/stargate for observer/phoenix (which means that you've already made the decision) or a suicided unit (generally more expensive and/or less reliable than zerg options). Its not impossible but its very awkward and annoying, especially when you consider Terran can just scan. I'm not saying that I disagree with the premise here; I don't see any good reason to remove the Overseer because I think its quite an interesting little tool for Zerg to use. It should be kept. But please don't act like removing the overseer would make you the only ones who have it awkward to scout at key points. Protoss has had to deal with that exact issue for a long time now, which is why Protoss has been crying out for some kind of early harrass/scout unit (along the same principle as the Reaper). Great post! This is so true! Protoss is in dire need of something like this that doesn't come after you've chosen your tech! Just look at pvp. Alot of players feel it's abit coinflippy regarding which tech to choose after the initial gateway tech which often resultet in one guy getting an advantages for no other reason than the tech he randomly selected vs the other guy's tech based on little to no information... This is exactly why Zerg players don't want to lose the overseer - In my opinion blizzard should working towards giving all races this option of somewhat early scouting and preferably it should be rather cheap too. | ||
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MrTortoise
1388 Posts
I also dont think overseeer or cruiser shuold be removed. What made starcraft good was the systematic exploration of variations on a theme, however the idea of starcraft is embodied in units like the overseer and cruiser. Taking them out would kinda suck imo ... id miss them a great deal. I disagree with all races having the ability to scout - or do anything tbh ... 2/3 races shoudl be able to do things the other should have something else - possibly unrelated - that makes them better in another way. I do accept that having to build robo as protoss kinda sucks - but then you no longer have KA so its not like a full gateway only composition is ever a decent long term plan. But then the protoss mobile detection is cloaked. Anyway protoss needs more units imo. Anyway protoss can hallucinate phoneix - given that immortals are becomming more popular the value of hallucinating them will go up also. | ||
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Ignorant prodigy
United States385 Posts
SCBW vets know that Ovie Speed is the way to go. Having said that.. in SCBW ovie had detection w/o any sort of upgrade.. So to compensate.. have your viper make your fast ovie a detector and go back to the old school way of doing things. Then for protoss maybe we'll see a new 'bisu build' of tempest+DT instead of Sair/DT.. yeeaaaaaa | ||
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Marou
Germany1371 Posts
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
On November 11 2011 01:31 Charon1979 wrote: You cant just compare early game scouting to midgame scouting. And you cant compare Zerg to Protoss. I never said you could. My point is entirely that he was making a huge deal about Zerg having to make a massive tech decision after Lair. Protoss has to do the exact same thing after cyber core and with (arguably) fewer options and possibilities to scout. So acting like difficulty of scouting right before a major tech decision is just a Zerg problem is rather blinkered. I agree that you have this kind of problems in PvT, but Z would have it in PvZ and TvZ. For the record you only need a small handful of lings to surround, block and kill anything that a Protoss is likely to "poke" with into your base as a Zerg. So actually its PvT, PvZ and even PvP (because you're both getting tech at the same time). On November 11 2011 22:24 Cereb wrote: Great post! This is so true! Protoss is in dire need of something like this that doesn't come after you've chosen your tech! Just look at pvp. Alot of players feel it's abit coinflippy regarding which tech to choose after the initial gateway tech which often resultet in one guy getting an advantages for no other reason than the tech he randomly selected vs the other guy's tech based on little to no information... This is exactly why Zerg players don't want to lose the overseer - In my opinion blizzard should working towards giving all races this option of somewhat early scouting and preferably it should be rather cheap too. Thanks, and I quite agree. Zerg shouldn't lose the Overseer. I don't think they realise what a huge pain not having any decent scouting at the right time is for Protoss; otherwise they wouldn't be considering taking away one of Zerg's most effective tools for it. Unless they're sneakily trying to buff Terran.  | ||
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Jakkerr
Netherlands2549 Posts
On November 11 2011 22:04 Za7oX wrote: You want to fly your 100/200 caster unit into your opponents base? Please think before posting..... As I said, what do u want more, an allround air support unit or an air scouter. If u don't wanna use it for scouting that's fine, but it is replacing the overseer. Upgrade overlord speed then I guess  | ||
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Seanly
Canada73 Posts
I feel like maybe the overseer should be left alone for at least the early stages of the HOTS beta so we can really understand whether or not it is a valuable unit for us zergies. At the same time I agree with all of the Viper's uses, but maybe removing its detection ability (while keeping the overseer) would be a beneficial choice for the zerg race. That being said I have no experience with HOTS thus far and so I can't make a completely accurate prediction on how the balance of the game will play out, I only express my own fears. I'm a noob. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On November 11 2011 22:04 Za7oX wrote: You want to fly your 100/200 caster unit into your opponents base? Please think before posting..... lol. You don't even know what the Viper's final hitpoint, armor or speed values will be, and you suggest anyone who scouts with a viper will send them straight into stalkers/marines with absolutely no ledges/open air to hide behind. | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
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Existor
Russian Federation4295 Posts
ovie speed is 150/150. it affects all your overlords. Ovie speed is 100/100 | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
So zerg can't scout the terran or toss main, is it needed ? not really, you want the evo chamber anyway. If you want to cut corners you use a normal overlord, because if you cut corners lair is far far away. And remember you have map control, you will see if they move out and have tons of time prepare. Scouting is different for each race but no race really is behind the other when it comes to scouting. Well except if you let the terran drop a proxy racks near your bases to scout you (cheaper then scan, will see more and can build units when home hehe) I guess their point to remove it was because the overseer is a bit imba for one point. They cost no supply, can drop units that make a more annoying wall then workers on hold position, and can deny production forever. (hehe i used to do that before the overseer change). The other point is if there are cloaked units, they are so easily sniped that you just need way more, even with a range of 10 they die quiet fast. (though i love to bait people into sniping them just to find out i have more in my back, so they lose around 600 resources vs 100). As for scan, not using the first 100 energy on mules is like cutting worker production early game to scout. And if you want to scout with scan, you need alteast 2 scans against a good zerg. But nowadays zergs are really nice to terrans and let them stand in front of their base so they could scout any ground based attack hehe. Well there is lots of more to say about why how it is now is so good. But that would make the post to long. So i just say mind games make the game fun and having to judge by what you see is a skill that divides good and bad players. | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
100 minerals and 100 gas is a lot to invest in just scouting, but if that is our only option I think it would be best to put it on hatch tech and hell if it turns out to be OP ramp up the costs/make it longer to research or make races like Protoss less reliant on not getting scouted for their builds to work at all. | ||
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Discerpo
263 Posts
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