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On November 01 2011 06:55 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:48 tabbott26 wrote:On November 01 2011 06:41 Whitewing wrote:On November 01 2011 06:23 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On November 01 2011 06:00 ThisGS wrote:
So many people in this thread think ESL doesnt pay.
Thats WRONG.
They always pay, just really, really slow.
As Carmac posted, its a bit better @ IEM events than national events (eps) / random other cups That is a really bad way to put it. Time changes the value of money. It's not the same thing come late. It's something different. Withholding payment for so long is like requiring every prize winner to give ESL a free loan for the amount of money won for the period of time the money is withheld. Loans shouldn't be free. ESL should pay promptly or pay a late fee or pay interest. Otherwise they absolutely are exploiting their players. Tyler is 100% correct: it's the difference between present value and future value of money. If I promise you $100 for winning a tournament, and give you that after 1 year, yes, you did get $100 technically, but the present value of that $100 is a bit lower, because you could have put that money into a savings account and collected interest on it for that entire year, or invested it elsewhere. When you start looking at larger sums like 600 euros here, $2,000 there, it really starts to add up, and it really hurts the players badly. Ahh, but what if the exchange rate doubled over the course of the year :p Of course by your smiley you aren't completely serious. But in that case, it's like the tournament forced you to invest in a specific foreign currency. If you took the money immediately, you'd have the option to invest any anything you want or use it in any way you wish. So, what if another currency quadrupled and you wanted to invest but couldn't? 
Nooo, my seemingly flawless explanation for everything in this thread!! Thanks Tyler, I'll just go and cry quietly in a corner and play some Bronze ladder matches 
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On November 01 2011 07:08 socommaster123 wrote:
I love how this thread blows up and now representatives are sent to do their public relation work!
I hope that every player that got scammed vent their frustrations on this topic. The public needs to now.
Its funny how their representatives are already "hey guys, adding company names to a black list isnt good for esports".
Lol.
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Well, this thread pretty much shows how most have not been around for a long time.
It's clear that most StarCraft 2 players have not been exposed the the delays in paying out prize money because they were rarely part of major esports tournaments before the release of that game. Ask someone who's been playing before 2009. That was when ESL was held in high regard because they paid out, even if it took a long time. Not a thing you could take for granted.
Now with money being thrown at SC2 like there's no tomorrow, everyone here is suddenly going crazy about how delays cannot be and how apparently players starve when they're not being paid on time. A couple of years ago you would have ended up with no tournaments at all had you decided to boycott those who had delayed payout in prizes. That's what this has always been like. Does it need to change? Probably, but it's not going to happen over night. ESL is one of the only tournaments that made it through the recession that followed 2008, and they don't get the amounts of venture capital that MLG carries around these days.
Instead of posting about it on a forum, the players might consider actually forming some kind of organisation to help in those matters. Doesn't seem too much work to me. And even if not, they could just boycott the tournaments they think do not pay out prize money on time. What's that, there are almost none left then? Oh well...
It's such a hypocrisy that everyone is always applauding insane prize pools and players tend to follow the sums instead of the reputation yet at the same time, any delay is totally unacceptable. Do you honestly believe most of the current tournaments have a sustainable business model that returns their investment?
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what the most shocking is that the players can spend up to £500-1000 say to getto these tournaments and then dont get any money back for Months... that is what is unacceptable with the bigger tournaments that are live!!!
They should pay out a lot sooner when traveling is involved.
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Another reason not to try and be a progamer. Tournies crushin dreams and exploiting the poor and weak.
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On November 01 2011 07:05 jupidar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:03 aike wrote:On November 01 2011 07:01 jupidar wrote:
The business model is obviously flawed, but how can you change it? Tournaments, teams, and players all rely on sponsors. Sponsors can pay money BEFORE tournaments happen. Instead of relying on future money for tournaments, get the money and then plan your tournament season. It's kind of like how MLG does it, except they actually have capital. MLG has stream revenue and spectators pay to watch their live games. MLG is sort of nothing like all the other tournaments around.
This helps MLG provide more for players/viewers, but they still rely on their venture capital and sponsorship money to make events happen (trucking stuff around the US isn't cheap  ) Charging for this stuff is definitely a great step toward becoming a sustainable business.
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On November 01 2011 07:09 GrimReefer wrote:
why aren't the teams stepping up and fighting for their players. i know not all tourney players are on teams, but the ones that are on teams should be able to expect their team to start throwing some weight around to get their players paid.
imagine if a team came out and said "XYZ tournament has not paid our player ABC, we will not participate in any further tournaments . . . yadda yadda yadda. We ask our brother and sister SC2 teams to act in kind because a breach of contract for one player is a potential breach for all players. we as a community should not stand for this and we will show it by not participating in any future tournaments."
boom problem solved. sure it's possible that we might lose some SC2 tournaments, but really there's so many that losing a few tournaments that aren't paying out the winners isn't a problem. if the community, the players, and the teams boycott a tournament what hope does it have?
no players = no games to show, no community = no one watching streams, no teams = no players and no hype.
From what I am hearing the teams do fight for their players. It seems to be more of a problem for people not on teams or on small teams that are having to do it themselves. Kinda sad though that they have to harass tournaments at all to get paid.
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On November 01 2011 07:08 ReachTheSky wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:04 BluePanther wrote:On November 01 2011 06:54 ReachTheSky wrote:
To all the people that say we need a kespa or a players union, how is that gonna prevent organizations from paying out within a reasonable time period?(say 60 days tops). I feel like the same excuse can come up(we don't have the money yet or its in the mail, then we don't have the money yet) and what could this said 'players union' do about it? You get a default judgment against them in a court of law, and place a lien on their personal assets. Lawyers can be dicks like that.  At worst, you force them to come to the table to talk. If you don't want to bankrupt someone with good intentions, you could always settle out of court. A union doesn't have to be limited to only players as well... a union sanctioned event may pay the union for a stamp of approval, ensuring quality payments to players (which from my understanding would also increase the quality of players willing to travel and compete in turn raising their event's prestige or coverage/viewers). This could be done by putting funds in an escrow and having lawyer support for suing sponsors who do not meet their financial commitments on behalf of tournament organizers themselves. Litigation costs usually outweigh the prizes..... I can possibly see this happening in the future say 10 years from now if sc2/esports/sc3/whatever RTS game at the time grows to be huge like MLB,NBA etc but right now it just doesn't seem financially worth the time...
depends on the contract and the jurisdiction. lots of contracts have a "prevailing party" clause stipulating the loser of any litigation must pay the prevailing parties fees and costs. lots of the players aren't from america, and in the european legal system the loser almost always pays the winners fees and costs. some states in the U.S. have statutes that allow for the collection of fees and costs if you put the other party on notice that you intend to make them pay your fees and costs.
sure, it would be not worth it at all to sue for a $50 cash prize, but you could probably lump all your unpaid tournament winnings together in one lawsuit.
EVEN BETTER - all unpaid players either from specific tournaments or all tournaments combined file a class action lawsuit. one lawsuit for everyone's money.
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On November 01 2011 07:11 FlyingDJ wrote:
Well, this thread pretty much shows how most have not been around for a long time.
It's clear that most StarCraft 2 players have not been exposed the the delays in paying out prize money because they were rarely part of major esports tournaments before the release of that game. Ask someone who's been playing before 2009. That was when ESL was held in high regard because they paid out, even if it took a long time. Not a thing you could take for granted.
Now with money being thrown at SC2 like there's no tomorrow, everyone here is suddenly going crazy about how delays cannot be and how apparently players starve when they're not being paid on time. A couple of years ago you would have ended up with no tournaments at all had you decided to boycott those who had delayed payout in prizes. That's what this has always been like. Does it need to change? Probably, but it's not going to happen over night. ESL is one of the only tournaments that made it through the recession that followed 2008, and they don't get the amounts of venture capital that MLG carries around these days.
Instead of posting about it on a forum, the players might consider actually forming some kind of organisation to help in those matters. Doesn't seem too much work to me. And even if not, they could just boycott the tournaments they think do not pay out prize money on time. What's that, then there are almost none left then? Oh well...
It's such a hypocrisy that everyone is always applauding insane prize pools and players tend to follow the sums instead of the reputation yet at the same time, any delay is totally unacceptable. Do you honestly believe most of the current tournaments have a sustainable business model that returns their investment?
yes they do. Just because Esport have it bad years ago does not mean it should be acceptable now. It is a much more ludicrous business for sc2 tourneys today then ever been for any other games.
I guess for you workers should not complain about pays because before union, people were paid in credits for food. Obviously it was acceptable at one point means its ok now right?
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perhaps boy cott tournaments that don't pay out from 1 event to the next or what we need is a regulatory body to deal with cases where players have waited a long time and take legal action on the players be-halve.
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Is it time for: "Occupy Esports"
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Sorry to hear this, good luck getting your money.
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Hahahaahahahahah I love how d.Devil suddenly stopped posting in this thread after Naniwas second comment.
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Hello guys,
I'm sorry to hear that this kind of things still happen.
On a similar note I would like to point out an absurd that happened with the local IeSF qualifications.
BLAST-Kalin(GM player) won the qualification but it was a fraud. Instead they sent a Diamond player who owns a company registered on the very same address where BFES is registered(the organisation that holds the IeSF licens) to represent Bulgaria in SC2 at IeSF. He wasn't even playing in the qualification!
We could't do anything and it's at least the 4-th time they do this kind of thing. Please advice.
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On November 01 2011 06:23 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:00 ThisGS wrote:
So many people in this thread think ESL doesnt pay.
Thats WRONG.
They always pay, just really, really slow.
As Carmac posted, its a bit better @ IEM events than national events (eps) / random other cups That is a really bad way to put it. Time changes the value of money. It's not the same thing come late. It's something different. Withholding payment for so long is like requiring every prize winner to give ESL a free loan for the amount of money won for the period of time the money is withheld. Loans shouldn't be free. ESL should pay promptly or pay a late fee or pay interest. Otherwise they absolutely are exploiting their players.
Especially considering the international flavour of SC2 right now. Not only the time changing the value of money but extreme XR fluctuations are changing the value to individual people entering tournaments who need money to pay rent (for example) at home.
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On November 01 2011 07:01 quakerix wrote:
Thank you. I'm extremely surprised that aTnCloud already posted about ESWC not paying out just a few days after the event. We didn't even finish up logistically and this event is already listed in this topic.
Ok, i can imagine that because of the previous company going bankrupt the brand had some damage. But posting this before even contacting us is a bit harsh towards the new owners. Last year they paid out just a few weeks after the event and now we didn't even had the chance.
You could have contacted us in 100 ways, your management has direct contacts with us, you could have replied to your invite email you could have even gone to our website and look up contact information.
Anyway; i messaged you privately and i also already replied to you in the ESWC topic a few days earlier.
Give us a break and we'll contact you as soon as possible.
Don't really see whats so harsh about simply stating that he has not been payed. I mean the date of the tournament was there so people could see its only been a week or whatever. He was just mentioning tournaments that had not payed him.
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On November 01 2011 07:20 Zuxo wrote:
Hahahaahahahahah I love how d.Devil suddenly stopped posting in this thread after Naniwas second comment.
lol yeah he really knows how to represent ;P
someone hire a pr guy for him ;P
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On November 01 2011 07:08 ReachTheSky wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:04 BluePanther wrote:On November 01 2011 06:54 ReachTheSky wrote:
To all the people that say we need a kespa or a players union, how is that gonna prevent organizations from paying out within a reasonable time period?(say 60 days tops). I feel like the same excuse can come up(we don't have the money yet or its in the mail, then we don't have the money yet) and what could this said 'players union' do about it? You get a default judgment against them in a court of law, and place a lien on their personal assets. Lawyers can be dicks like that. At worst, you force them to come to the table to talk. If you don't want to bankrupt someone with good intentions, you could always settle out of court. A union doesn't have to be limited to only players as well... a union sanctioned event may pay the union for a stamp of approval, ensuring quality payments to players (which from my understanding would also increase the quality of players willing to travel and compete in turn raising their event's prestige or coverage/viewers). This could be done by putting funds in an escrow and having lawyer support for suing sponsors who do not meet their financial commitments on behalf of tournament organizers themselves. Litigation costs usually outweigh the prizes..... I can possibly see this happening in the future say 10 years from now if sc2/esports/sc3/whatever RTS game at the time grows to be huge like MLB,NBA etc but right now it just doesn't seem financially worth the time...
The goal is not income... it's to ensure prizes get paid. The best way to do this is pre-emptive action. A union or organization which can stamp it's approval on an event can be extremely influential if it has a connotation of quality behind it.
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I remember before in world of warcraft back in 07/08 people were complaining about the same thing from ESL.
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On November 01 2011 07:11 FlyingDJ wrote:
Well, this thread pretty much shows how most have not been around for a long time.
It's clear that most StarCraft 2 players have not been exposed the the delays in paying out prize money because they were rarely part of major esports tournaments before the release of that game. Ask someone who's been playing before 2009. That was when ESL was held in high regard because they paid out, even if it took a long time. Not a thing you could take for granted.
Now with money being thrown at SC2 like there's no tomorrow, everyone here is suddenly going crazy about how delays cannot be and how apparently players starve when they're not being paid on time. A couple of years ago you would have ended up with no tournaments at all had you decided to boycott those who had delayed payout in prizes. That's what this has always been like. Does it need to change? Probably, but it's not going to happen over night. ESL is one of the only tournaments that made it through the recession that followed 2008, and they don't get the amounts of venture capital that MLG carries around these days.
Instead of posting about it on a forum, the players might consider actually forming some kind of organisation to help in those matters. Doesn't seem too much work to me. And even if not, they could just boycott the tournaments they think do not pay out prize money on time. What's that, there are almost none left then? Oh well...
It's such a hypocrisy that everyone is always applauding insane prize pools and players tend to follow the sums instead of the reputation yet at the same time, any delay is totally unacceptable. Do you honestly believe most of the current tournaments have a sustainable business model that returns their investment?
it's just as unacceptable for someone to hire a contractor to build their house, then they live in the house for 6 months without paying. oh but you just tell the contractor that you don't have a sustainable business model and you'll maybe pay him later. at least in that situation the contractor can file a lien on the house, and you better believe that they'll either get paid or get the house. Jinro can't put a lien on the games he played, they have no value especially after they've been broadcast live.
it's not the players fault that the tournament made promises they couldn't keep, it's on the tournament to act within its means and pay the players. if they haven't crafted a business model that allows them to pay the players from the revenue the tournament made the tournament should die and another will take its place.
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EPT
