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On November 01 2011 07:03 pHaRSiDE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:52 talismania wrote:
The weirdest part about all the ESL small cup money is the lack of professionalism:
-Why aren't the admins being proactive about asking for player money details?
------------------------------- giving the players updates about the status of sponsor funds?
------------------------------- replying to emails containing bank info stating that they received the info?
------------------------------- not connecting tournament admins with payment folks, etc? As an admin, let me tell you that there is very little to absolutely nothing we can do about this. We don't sit back and have a party about the fact the money is taking so long to come to the players. Its just something that happens and all we can do is keep asking the right department when is the money coming. Sometimes the answer is not what we want to hear, but like I said, its just the way it is :-/
So because it's the way it is, and it's a broken system, and people aren't happy, nothing should be done about it? There is this magical word called change...
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I think Tournaments shouldn't take this personally. It's a good thing that this issue was brought up because now newer Tournaments know what to do better and esports will be much more professional. Furthermore, sponsors like Red Bull will make tournaments that pay on time so people will buy their products over say Monsters.
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On November 01 2011 07:15 iky43210 wrote:
yes they do. Just because Esport have it bad years ago does not mean it should be acceptable now. It is a much more ludicrous business for sc2 tourneys today then ever been for any other games.
To the point where money still can't be paid....
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On November 01 2011 07:11 FlyingDJ wrote:
Well, this thread pretty much shows how most have not been around for a long time.
It's clear that most StarCraft 2 players have not been exposed the the delays in paying out prize money because they were rarely part of major esports tournaments before the release of that game. Ask someone who's been playing before 2009. That was when ESL was held in high regard because they paid out, even if it took a long time. Not a thing you could take for granted.
Now with money being thrown at SC2 like there's no tomorrow, everyone here is suddenly going crazy about how delays cannot be and how apparently players starve when they're not being paid on time. A couple of years ago you would have ended up with no tournaments at all had you decided to boycott those who had delayed payout in prizes. That's what this has always been like. Does it need to change? Probably, but it's not going to happen over night. ESL is one of the only tournaments that made it through the recession that followed 2008, and they don't get the amounts of venture capital that MLG carries around these days.
Instead of posting about it on a forum, the players might consider actually forming some kind of organisation to help in those matters. Doesn't seem too much work to me. And even if not, they could just boycott the tournaments they think do not pay out prize money on time. What's that, there are almost none left then? Oh well...
It's such a hypocrisy that everyone is always applauding insane prize pools and players tend to follow the sums instead of the reputation yet at the same time, any delay is totally unacceptable. Do you honestly believe most of the current tournaments have a sustainable business model that returns their investment?
hmm kinda odd to call you out on this but the thread starter is ClouD.. formerly ToT)Cloud( from BW and various other top teams in that time. Tyler has chimed in.. a player from BW as well who has played for a decade. IdrA, myself.. the list kind of goes on.
It seems unwise to write this entire thread off and basically call everyone SC2 newbs. To make matters worse you are kind of suggesting that people should be appreciative that ESL pays at all.. and that it used to be "held in high regard" as if that makes it ok to be late?
The best and really the ONLY reply possible is "hey sorry, there is a lot of redtape and we are aware it isn't optimal but we are doing our best" or something along those lines. Not "shutup at least we pay you sc2 novices!"
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don't really have anything to add to this topic other than i know the feeling and it's just not true for SC2. i play Trackmania and ESWC owes me 13.000$ in prize money and i also have smaller sums from other organizations that were never paid out.
im not quite sure what the solution is... but personally, i've decided to never attend a tournament again that screwed me over in the past. that makes me at least feel good about myself, which ultimately is what matters the most to me.
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On November 01 2011 04:36 fyndor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 04:14 csn_JohnClark wrote:
wow.. .
I have been a business manager for a small company.. (25 employees).. but a company that makes 1 million+ a year in revenue. When we win contracts with the Government to do a job.... through a contractor (we being a sub contractor).. there are several factors at play.
1. We MUST fill out all paperwork properly or the process to be paid is delayed.
2. We do the job BEFORE we are paid and even before the contractor is paid.
3. Once the job is complete, we are expected to be paid according the agreements set in place.. most often times 90 days.
4. If a contractor has not been paid by the Government.. this will delay payment to our company.
5. There is NO guarantee that the contractor will pay us within 90 days. Many issues can arise that delay this process.
6. 99% of the time, we ARE Paid.. but it is not always easy and it can easily be our fault in some cases.
Those that do not pay us... have legal action taken.
Oddly enough..this entire process was put into place to HELP make sure contractors/sub contractors do get paid. There are so many regulations in place to protect the small business...but issues do come up and there are times when action must be taken.
I believe that things will get better in gaming.. as they already have 10 fold.. but we must not jump the gun on the very organizations that are helping build esports. Those that do NOT pay at all.. and those with a poor track record of COMMUNICATION with the players should be exposed... but the overall expectations of how the business of esports works needs to be realistic. Quit equating govt work with Starcraft 2. They aren't even close to similar.
I most certainly can equate the 2... the processes are very similar. You latched onto the fact that I was using a 'government' contract..but almost the exact same scenerio is in place with just a contractor. The fact that the contractor gets paid by the home owner (building contractor) or the Government is not the issue here. The issue is the process and that is what many people posting here are missing.
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On November 01 2011 00:50 Telcontar wrote:
This is one of the reasons why SC2 needs an authoritative body that can hold these tournaments and sponsors responsible. If ESPORTS truly wants to become legit, you cannot have the professionals literally begging for what they've alrealy rightfully won. Thanks for bringing your (and I'm sure many other pros') plight to light.
KeSPA, Flash, SC2, solved.
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On November 01 2011 07:23 divito wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:15 iky43210 wrote:
yes they do. Just because Esport have it bad years ago does not mean it should be acceptable now. It is a much more ludicrous business for sc2 tourneys today then ever been for any other games.
To the point where money still can't be paid....
don't confuse greed and bad business structure with sc2 esport scene
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On November 01 2011 07:14 GrimReefer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:08 ReachTheSky wrote:On November 01 2011 07:04 BluePanther wrote:On November 01 2011 06:54 ReachTheSky wrote:
To all the people that say we need a kespa or a players union, how is that gonna prevent organizations from paying out within a reasonable time period?(say 60 days tops). I feel like the same excuse can come up(we don't have the money yet or its in the mail, then we don't have the money yet) and what could this said 'players union' do about it? You get a default judgment against them in a court of law, and place a lien on their personal assets. Lawyers can be dicks like that.  At worst, you force them to come to the table to talk. If you don't want to bankrupt someone with good intentions, you could always settle out of court. A union doesn't have to be limited to only players as well... a union sanctioned event may pay the union for a stamp of approval, ensuring quality payments to players (which from my understanding would also increase the quality of players willing to travel and compete in turn raising their event's prestige or coverage/viewers). This could be done by putting funds in an escrow and having lawyer support for suing sponsors who do not meet their financial commitments on behalf of tournament organizers themselves. Litigation costs usually outweigh the prizes..... I can possibly see this happening in the future say 10 years from now if sc2/esports/sc3/whatever RTS game at the time grows to be huge like MLB,NBA etc but right now it just doesn't seem financially worth the time... depends on the contract and the jurisdiction. lots of contracts have a "prevailing party" clause stipulating the loser of any litigation must pay the prevailing parties fees and costs. lots of the players aren't from america, and in the european legal system the loser almost always pays the winners fees and costs. some states in the U.S. have statutes that allow for the collection of fees and costs if you put the other party on notice that you intend to make them pay your fees and costs. sure, it would be not worth it at all to sue for a $50 cash prize, but you could probably lump all your unpaid tournament winnings together in one lawsuit. EVEN BETTER - all unpaid players either from specific tournaments or all tournaments combined file a class action lawsuit. one lawsuit for everyone's money.
Bingo. It's not free, but I think once you set a precedent, it becomes somewhat viable really quickly. Plus a lot of the documentation, once done, can be recycled to lower the costs. If you have the person who's willing to put in a little time to make it work, this could definitely happen.
Also, remember that advertising a prize is equivalent to a contract. Offer, acceptance, reliance.
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On November 01 2011 07:01 quakerix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:04 AndersR. wrote:
Kinda feel like ESWC has been bashed a bit too much in this thread, the owners now are not the ones who were known for not paying out the money, that where the previous owners who went bankruptcy with the brand. I'm pretty sure that the current owners have done a fine job paying out, at least as far as i remember that was what Na'Vi.cs said last year after they won it. Thank you. I'm extremely surprised that aTnCloud already posted about ESWC not paying out just a few days after the event. We didn't even finish up logistically and this event is already listed in this topic. Ok, i can imagine that because of the previous company going bankrupt the brand had some damage. But posting this before even contacting us is a bit harsh towards the new owners. Last year they paid out just a few weeks after the event and now we didn't even had the chance. You could have contacted us in 100 ways, your management has direct contacts with us, you could have replied to your invite email you could have even gone to our website and look up contact information. Anyway; i messaged you privately and i also already replied to you in the ESWC topic a few days earlier. Give us a break and we'll contact you as soon as possible. On November 01 2011 01:48 Jcnorheim wrote:
I am sorry that this happens.
Many community figures talk about how events compete with one another for viewers, and I think that this is definitely one of the factors that concerns at least some viewers.
On the other side of the coin though, ESWC probably didn't get nearly enough viewers due to having to compete with Blizzcon. So they already lost the competition for viewers. Maybe ESWC will use that as an excuse to disappear again. We had 100k simultaneous viewers as peak during our weekend and there were about 1500 people watching games at the stage. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tu7Fa.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/E1UWs.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0YlVL.jpg) Don't worry about the fact that ESWC wasn't a success. It was.
Something is still wrong with the idea that you expect players to have to contact you to get an update on the money owed to them. If you owe someone money, the responsibility is on you to pay it it.
Or at least that's how I think it should be.
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My tip: I am friends with the craftcup admins, and they have NEVER screwed me over when I'm won (twice) and have never screwed over anyone that I know or have heard of. Try this (the $100 cups are nice)
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On November 01 2011 07:21 Rabbitmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:01 quakerix wrote:
Thank you. I'm extremely surprised that aTnCloud already posted about ESWC not paying out just a few days after the event. We didn't even finish up logistically and this event is already listed in this topic.
Ok, i can imagine that because of the previous company going bankrupt the brand had some damage. But posting this before even contacting us is a bit harsh towards the new owners. Last year they paid out just a few weeks after the event and now we didn't even had the chance.
You could have contacted us in 100 ways, your management has direct contacts with us, you could have replied to your invite email you could have even gone to our website and look up contact information.
Anyway; i messaged you privately and i also already replied to you in the ESWC topic a few days earlier.
Give us a break and we'll contact you as soon as possible.
Don't really see whats so harsh about simply stating that he has not been payed. I mean the date of the tournament was there so people could see its only been a week or whatever. He was just mentioning tournaments that had not payed him.
agreed. also would have been more professional to just get him paid then come to this thread whining about being called out. get your shit together and act like a professional adult.
b.b.b.b.but why did he call us outtt? we haven't had enough timeeeee.....you should have called us....omg i left you messages cut us some slack....
seriously? you should have paid him before coming into the thread, then you could be all like, "wow thanks for bring this to our attention. we have worked extra hard overnight to get this situation taken care of. we care about esports and the community, and will continue working hard to make the scene better."
see how that's better than whining?
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On November 01 2011 07:27 Enhancer_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:01 quakerix wrote:On November 01 2011 06:04 AndersR. wrote:
Kinda feel like ESWC has been bashed a bit too much in this thread, the owners now are not the ones who were known for not paying out the money, that where the previous owners who went bankruptcy with the brand. I'm pretty sure that the current owners have done a fine job paying out, at least as far as i remember that was what Na'Vi.cs said last year after they won it. Thank you. I'm extremely surprised that aTnCloud already posted about ESWC not paying out just a few days after the event. We didn't even finish up logistically and this event is already listed in this topic. Ok, i can imagine that because of the previous company going bankrupt the brand had some damage. But posting this before even contacting us is a bit harsh towards the new owners. Last year they paid out just a few weeks after the event and now we didn't even had the chance. You could have contacted us in 100 ways, your management has direct contacts with us, you could have replied to your invite email you could have even gone to our website and look up contact information. Anyway; i messaged you privately and i also already replied to you in the ESWC topic a few days earlier. Give us a break and we'll contact you as soon as possible. On November 01 2011 01:48 Jcnorheim wrote:
I am sorry that this happens.
Many community figures talk about how events compete with one another for viewers, and I think that this is definitely one of the factors that concerns at least some viewers.
On the other side of the coin though, ESWC probably didn't get nearly enough viewers due to having to compete with Blizzcon. So they already lost the competition for viewers. Maybe ESWC will use that as an excuse to disappear again. We had 100k simultaneous viewers as peak during our weekend and there were about 1500 people watching games at the stage. Don't worry about the fact that ESWC wasn't a success. It was. Something is still wrong with the idea that you expect players to have to contact you to get an update on the money owed to them. If you owe someone money, the responsibility is on you to pay it it. Or at least that's how I think it should be.
I think the same, but he thought it was wise to PM me saying I put ESWC in bad light for no reason and I might not get invited next year because of it. lol.
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On November 01 2011 05:16 GiftPflanZe wrote:
This is just fucking sad.I lost respect for alot of tournaments now : /
This is why this thread, although important, has gotten out of hand.
Always talking about the things that do not work or things that have been bad (mostly in the past).. will only hurt the growth of esports. Instead of all of this stupid #Killingesports crap.. we need to focus on #buildingeSports!!
Find ways to make situations like this more visible..but also honest and fair. The idea to add a 'rating system' to the tournament tracker is probably the best idea in this thread and one that can really make a difference because its (for the most part) a fair assessment of an event and in the end.. the community will decide which events stay and which events (organizers) die.
All of the 'talk' and trash without proper understanding is only making this issue worse then it needs to be.
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On November 01 2011 07:26 ineq wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 00:50 Telcontar wrote:
This is one of the reasons why SC2 needs an authoritative body that can hold these tournaments and sponsors responsible. If ESPORTS truly wants to become legit, you cannot have the professionals literally begging for what they've alrealy rightfully won. Thanks for bringing your (and I'm sure many other pros') plight to light. KeSPA, Flash, SC2, solved.
You don't need kespa. You need someone who moderates, not someone who rules.
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I know for fighting events like UFC and Boxing etc the promoters have to have the fighters' purses set aside already before the event can even happen. Maybe major tournaments need something like this to ensure they're not unfairly profiting from the players and paying out when it's convenient for them.
I think the IPL excuse is a weak one. If it's such a large organization why wasn't all the leg work put in beforehand and instead things are clearing finance now as an apparent after thought? I'm sorry but "oh the bureaucracy of it all!" is a terrible excuse.
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On November 01 2011 07:28 Glon wrote:
My tip: I am friends with the craftcup admins, and they have NEVER screwed me over when I'm won (twice) and have never screwed over anyone that I know or have heard of. Try this (the $100 cups are nice)
what happened the to us cc?
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On November 01 2011 07:25 iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:11 FlyingDJ wrote:
Well, this thread pretty much shows how most have not been around for a long time.
It's clear that most StarCraft 2 players have not been exposed the the delays in paying out prize money because they were rarely part of major esports tournaments before the release of that game. Ask someone who's been playing before 2009. That was when ESL was held in high regard because they paid out, even if it took a long time. Not a thing you could take for granted.
Now with money being thrown at SC2 like there's no tomorrow, everyone here is suddenly going crazy about how delays cannot be and how apparently players starve when they're not being paid on time. A couple of years ago you would have ended up with no tournaments at all had you decided to boycott those who had delayed payout in prizes. That's what this has always been like. Does it need to change? Probably, but it's not going to happen over night. ESL is one of the only tournaments that made it through the recession that followed 2008, and they don't get the amounts of venture capital that MLG carries around these days.
Instead of posting about it on a forum, the players might consider actually forming some kind of organisation to help in those matters. Doesn't seem too much work to me. And even if not, they could just boycott the tournaments they think do not pay out prize money on time. What's that, there are almost none left then? Oh well...
It's such a hypocrisy that everyone is always applauding insane prize pools and players tend to follow the sums instead of the reputation yet at the same time, any delay is totally unacceptable. Do you honestly believe most of the current tournaments have a sustainable business model that returns their investment? hmm kinda odd to call you out on this but the thread starter is ClouD.. formerly ToT)Cloud( from BW and various other top teams in that time. Tyler has chimed in.. a player from BW as well who has played for a decade. IdrA, myself.. the list kind of goes on. It seems unwise to write this entire thread off and basically call everyone SC2 newbs. To make matters worse you are kind of suggesting that people should be appreciative that ESL pays at all.. and that it used to be "held in high regard" as if that makes it ok to be late? The best and really the ONLY reply possible is "hey sorry, there is a lot of redtape and we are aware it isn't optimal but we are doing our best" or something along those lines. Not "shutup at least we pay you sc2 novices!"
You're all old school BW pros, but that also means you missed out on most of the major tournaments that developed after 2003 because BW was not in them...CPL, all the ESL tournaments, WSVG etc. Ask someone like Grubby or any Counter-Strike professional, I am certain his attitude is a little more relaxed because they have experienced it over the course of years.
Paying out late is not okay. But I also think a thread like this is counter-productive. 90% of the posters here just have a very naive understanding of how esports business works, so we're going around in circles. The players should take action in an organised way. And while I do not believe anyone should be appreciative of tournaments paying at all, I still believe that players have contributed to inflated prize pools that are paid out way too late because they a) kept showing up to the tournaments that did just that and b) used prize money as a deciding factor for where to go instead of the tournament's reputation.
I don't think anyone should shut up. Well, those who don't have a clue should, and those affected should get organised.
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On November 01 2011 07:29 aTnClouD wrote:
I think the same, but he thought it was wise to PM me saying I put ESWC in bad light for no reason and I might not get invited next year because of it. lol.
That might be the most disgusting fucking thing I read in this entire thread.
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On November 01 2011 07:32 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:26 ineq wrote:On November 01 2011 00:50 Telcontar wrote:
This is one of the reasons why SC2 needs an authoritative body that can hold these tournaments and sponsors responsible. If ESPORTS truly wants to become legit, you cannot have the professionals literally begging for what they've alrealy rightfully won. Thanks for bringing your (and I'm sure many other pros') plight to light. KeSPA, Flash, SC2, solved. You don't need kespa. You need someone who moderates, not someone who rules.
Every successful sports/competitive league has a ruling, governing body. Why would SC2 different?
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EPT
