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On November 01 2011 02:52 PantsB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 02:17 csn_JohnClark wrote:
again.. I see a lot of comments that are misguided. It is very important the the community understand that an acceptable wait period is 3 months and in some cases 6 months. O_o You're claiming that 90-180 days is a fine as accounts payable age? I don't know of any industry where that is standard.... 30-60 days is much more reasonable given a continuing relationship.
I totally agree with this.
I've worked for years as an International Contractor, which prize winners, according to organisers' posts here, are also considered. I demand all my contracts get paid out in Net 30, meaning 30 days after invoicing. If the contract is not paid out, they start incurring interest. After 90 days, the account is considered defaulted and I send a final notice before filing in small claims court.
This is not an abnormally short time frame. Most accounts payable departments know this process and it's used in every industry that contracts. Just because eSports is relatively new, doesn't mean it can't be held up to other, higher, standards. I don't think it's wrong or greedy for a progamer to be angry about non payment after 30 days, I get angry about it too, and I'm in a completely different industry. Delinquency in payment means that I'm very unlikely to work with the client again in the future, and I think tournament organisers should seriously fear not being able to get players again if they don't pay on time.
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On November 01 2011 07:29 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:27 Enhancer_ wrote:On November 01 2011 07:01 quakerix wrote:On November 01 2011 06:04 AndersR. wrote:
Kinda feel like ESWC has been bashed a bit too much in this thread, the owners now are not the ones who were known for not paying out the money, that where the previous owners who went bankruptcy with the brand. I'm pretty sure that the current owners have done a fine job paying out, at least as far as i remember that was what Na'Vi.cs said last year after they won it. Thank you. I'm extremely surprised that aTnCloud already posted about ESWC not paying out just a few days after the event. We didn't even finish up logistically and this event is already listed in this topic. Ok, i can imagine that because of the previous company going bankrupt the brand had some damage. But posting this before even contacting us is a bit harsh towards the new owners. Last year they paid out just a few weeks after the event and now we didn't even had the chance. You could have contacted us in 100 ways, your management has direct contacts with us, you could have replied to your invite email you could have even gone to our website and look up contact information. Anyway; i messaged you privately and i also already replied to you in the ESWC topic a few days earlier. Give us a break and we'll contact you as soon as possible. On November 01 2011 01:48 Jcnorheim wrote:
I am sorry that this happens.
Many community figures talk about how events compete with one another for viewers, and I think that this is definitely one of the factors that concerns at least some viewers.
On the other side of the coin though, ESWC probably didn't get nearly enough viewers due to having to compete with Blizzcon. So they already lost the competition for viewers. Maybe ESWC will use that as an excuse to disappear again. We had 100k simultaneous viewers as peak during our weekend and there were about 1500 people watching games at the stage. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tu7Fa.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/E1UWs.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0YlVL.jpg) Don't worry about the fact that ESWC wasn't a success. It was. Something is still wrong with the idea that you expect players to have to contact you to get an update on the money owed to them. If you owe someone money, the responsibility is on you to pay it it. Or at least that's how I think it should be. I think the same, but he thought it was wise to PM me saying I put ESWC in bad light for no reason and I might not get invited next year because of it. lol.
lol.. cloud putting it all on the line to be the people's champ! cloud fighting!
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I absolutely HATE people who pull shit like this. Give the pros their money please and don't advertise BS prizes. We should probably just not watch tourneys that pull this kind of stuff consistently. That way, pros can still go and compete and earn money but those providing the tourneys will not profit from it unless they provide the players with their prizes.
Personally, I would like being in a situation like this as I kind of like, well, I don't know how to put it. But for me and potentially gain even more. But that's just me. And I have no idea why I would like this. I'm shy and typically NEVER look for a fight. But I have filthy rich parents with a strong moral compass who would be more than happy to provide a good lawyer. Most people don't have the time and money to go about getting their hard-earned cash through the routes I would be taking. And I probably don't know what I would be getting into. I should probably stop rambling about my odd views though. =)
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WORD TO ALL PLAYERS:
As far as I know (according to tax lawyer relatives) a check is any sort of instruction from the bank. Therefore, the large checks they give you on stage CAN be redeemed, if they contain sender/recipient/amount info.
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As the professional SC2 scene continues to grow at such an enormous rate, no doubt tournament organizers and sponsors are looking to keep what money they can, even from the pro players who "only are playing games" or some such. While I do think a governing body would be best, something that initiates contracts for players, leagues, teams and events, it's something that has to be done *very* carefully.
Players and teams would have to have all their contracts made legally binding over an international sense. EU players who sign up with NA teams, KR players on EU teams, etc, wouldn't want to be held back by multiple agencies for multiple regions and countries. The contracts of course go without saying to be not unlike any "mainstream" athletic sport contract we know of today. Specific rules may be required in each contract by the agency, but that might not be necessary.
Leagues and the agency would have to come to a set of legally binding rules based on payment, organization, and what exactly qualifies a league. The last part would be the largest, and I think the biggest obstacle for now. With the explosion of leagues and events this last year, there are too many smaller groups who compete for the grand coverage that MLG, GSL, IPL, etc receive. I think it would come down to a designation of large, "official" leagues and events that are bound to the agency's rules (both of organization and payment), and "unofficial" leagues and events that are self-run and participated in at a bit of risk.
Sponsors would have to treat the aforementioned "official" leagues and events with a great deal of respect and knowledge that you already see in "mainstream" athletic sports. The agency would have to be given the power to step in and legally pursue debts from the sponsors. This would likely lead to a requirement for a paper trail from the sponsors to the leagues and events, but all under the eye of the agency.
The hardest part, I think, would be having everyone agree on an agency's structure and powers, that would not favor any particular leagues or regions. It would be a very, very fine line to walk, and I'm not sure it could be done just yet. In time, however.
Until then, I really do wish there was a way that, in a simple form, players could sign a contract agreeing to participate and in return, that same contract could be used to guarantee earned payment via placement.
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On November 01 2011 07:29 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:27 Enhancer_ wrote:On November 01 2011 07:01 quakerix wrote:On November 01 2011 06:04 AndersR. wrote:
Kinda feel like ESWC has been bashed a bit too much in this thread, the owners now are not the ones who were known for not paying out the money, that where the previous owners who went bankruptcy with the brand. I'm pretty sure that the current owners have done a fine job paying out, at least as far as i remember that was what Na'Vi.cs said last year after they won it. Thank you. I'm extremely surprised that aTnCloud already posted about ESWC not paying out just a few days after the event. We didn't even finish up logistically and this event is already listed in this topic. Ok, i can imagine that because of the previous company going bankrupt the brand had some damage. But posting this before even contacting us is a bit harsh towards the new owners. Last year they paid out just a few weeks after the event and now we didn't even had the chance. You could have contacted us in 100 ways, your management has direct contacts with us, you could have replied to your invite email you could have even gone to our website and look up contact information. Anyway; i messaged you privately and i also already replied to you in the ESWC topic a few days earlier. Give us a break and we'll contact you as soon as possible. On November 01 2011 01:48 Jcnorheim wrote:
I am sorry that this happens.
Many community figures talk about how events compete with one another for viewers, and I think that this is definitely one of the factors that concerns at least some viewers.
On the other side of the coin though, ESWC probably didn't get nearly enough viewers due to having to compete with Blizzcon. So they already lost the competition for viewers. Maybe ESWC will use that as an excuse to disappear again. We had 100k simultaneous viewers as peak during our weekend and there were about 1500 people watching games at the stage. Don't worry about the fact that ESWC wasn't a success. It was. Something is still wrong with the idea that you expect players to have to contact you to get an update on the money owed to them. If you owe someone money, the responsibility is on you to pay it it. Or at least that's how I think it should be. I think the same, but he thought it was wise to PM me saying I put ESWC in bad light for no reason and I might not get invited next year because of it. lol.
Jesus Christ, thats just disgusting.
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On November 01 2011 07:32 csn_JohnClark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:16 GiftPflanZe wrote:
This is just fucking sad.I lost respect for alot of tournaments now : / This is why this thread, although important, has gotten out of hand. Always talking about the things that do not work or things that have been bad (mostly in the past).. will only hurt the growth of esports. Instead of all of this stupid #Killingesports crap.. we need to focus on #buildingeSports!! Find ways to make situations like this more visible..but also honest and fair. The idea to add a 'rating system' to the tournament tracker is probably the best idea in this thread and one that can really make a difference because its (for the most part) a fair assessment of an event and in the end.. the community will decide which events stay and which events (organizers) die. All of the 'talk' and trash without proper understanding is only making this issue worse then it needs to be.
I haven't lost any respect for tournaments because I already knew this is how things happened... but I have certainly lost a lot of respect for your organization. The way you represent CSN is just sad. you come in here and talk down to players and fans and say that we should forgive tournaments all of their idiotic business practices just because they do at some undisclosed point in the future pay out. Get the money first, and then pay out the prize. or at least specify in the rules "We will pay out within X amount of days" and MEET THAT DEADLINE. it's simple. it's not hard for an organization to do this! Instead of spending future money, they need to collect the money and then spend it. Not hard AT ALL.
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On November 01 2011 07:32 BluePanther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:26 ineq wrote:On November 01 2011 00:50 Telcontar wrote:
This is one of the reasons why SC2 needs an authoritative body that can hold these tournaments and sponsors responsible. If ESPORTS truly wants to become legit, you cannot have the professionals literally begging for what they've alrealy rightfully won. Thanks for bringing your (and I'm sure many other pros') plight to light. KeSPA, Flash, SC2, solved. You don't need kespa. You need someone who moderates, not someone who rules.
We need KeSPA more than we need nothing at all. With the whole world involved you can bet it's gonna be quite different.
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On November 01 2011 07:37 jorge_the_awesome wrote:
WORD TO ALL PLAYERS:
As far as I know (according to tax lawyer relatives) a check is any sort of instruction from the bank. Therefore, the large checks they give you on stage CAN be redeemed, if they contain sender/recipient/amount info.
The big checks they give you are just for show and has no real effect.
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So many people in this thread just commented without reading all the posts... I think it does show something that many of the people who were surprised by the information in this thread have fairly low post counts and were likely not paying attention to the esports scene before SC2. That said, the situation seems pretty bad. I really think managers need to be more involved in hounding the organizations to pay up.
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It's kind of bad that the players themselves don't seem to have any clue when their earnings will be paid out. That's the kind of things that should be specificed in the tournament rules so that players can decide whether to participate in the tournament accordingly.
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On November 01 2011 07:23 TechSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:03 pHaRSiDE wrote:On November 01 2011 06:52 talismania wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The weirdest part about all the ESL small cup money is the lack of professionalism:
-Why aren't the admins being proactive about asking for player money details?
------------------------------- giving the players updates about the status of sponsor funds?
------------------------------- replying to emails containing bank info stating that they received the info?
------------------------------- not connecting tournament admins with payment folks, etc? As an admin, let me tell you that there is very little to absolutely nothing we can do about this. We don't sit back and have a party about the fact the money is taking so long to come to the players. Its just something that happens and all we can do is keep asking the right department when is the money coming. Sometimes the answer is not what we want to hear, but like I said, its just the way it is :-/ + Show Spoiler +So because it's the way it is, and it's a broken system, and people aren't happy, nothing should be done about it? There is this magical word called change...
well....did the casters get paid, the camera men, the venue/host, the 'roadies' that set up the stage and equipment, the advertisers/PR team, the streaming company? b/c if they get paid why don't the players? you know how much you will have to pay in prize money long before the tournament begins, just like you know generally how much the things i listed will cost. it's called having a budget.
in the event that you're budget is too small, why is it that the players are left in the lurch instead of someone else? is it because they're just kids and you know they're not gonna fight for their money like the grown ass man that spent all weekend putting together and taking apart the stage or the venue/host that allowed you to have your tournament there. i think you know what would happen if you stiffed those people, you'd have someone annoying you everyday for a week or two then you'd get a letter from a lawyer. just because these are kids playing a video game does not mean that should be treated like trash.
seriously if anyone puts together a SC2 players union or legal team, hit me up, i wanna be a part of it.
Edit, this is in response to pharside
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On November 01 2011 07:39 mYNDIG wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:37 jorge_the_awesome wrote:
WORD TO ALL PLAYERS:
As far as I know (according to tax lawyer relatives) a check is any sort of instruction from the bank. Therefore, the large checks they give you on stage CAN be redeemed, if they contain sender/recipient/amount info. The big checks they give you are just for show and has no real effect.
They're designed to be just for show. Legally, they can be cashed. The bank teller might not accept it, and nobody usually cashes them, but legally, the can be cashed. Similarly, any piece of paper that is signed and has payment info can be cashed. You'd probably have to get the bank manager, but the tournament tries to hold you up, you can legally (at least in the US) cash it.
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On November 01 2011 07:29 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:27 Enhancer_ wrote:On November 01 2011 07:01 quakerix wrote:On November 01 2011 06:04 AndersR. wrote:
Kinda feel like ESWC has been bashed a bit too much in this thread, the owners now are not the ones who were known for not paying out the money, that where the previous owners who went bankruptcy with the brand. I'm pretty sure that the current owners have done a fine job paying out, at least as far as i remember that was what Na'Vi.cs said last year after they won it. Thank you. I'm extremely surprised that aTnCloud already posted about ESWC not paying out just a few days after the event. We didn't even finish up logistically and this event is already listed in this topic. Ok, i can imagine that because of the previous company going bankrupt the brand had some damage. But posting this before even contacting us is a bit harsh towards the new owners. Last year they paid out just a few weeks after the event and now we didn't even had the chance. You could have contacted us in 100 ways, your management has direct contacts with us, you could have replied to your invite email you could have even gone to our website and look up contact information. Anyway; i messaged you privately and i also already replied to you in the ESWC topic a few days earlier. Give us a break and we'll contact you as soon as possible. On November 01 2011 01:48 Jcnorheim wrote:
I am sorry that this happens.
Many community figures talk about how events compete with one another for viewers, and I think that this is definitely one of the factors that concerns at least some viewers.
On the other side of the coin though, ESWC probably didn't get nearly enough viewers due to having to compete with Blizzcon. So they already lost the competition for viewers. Maybe ESWC will use that as an excuse to disappear again. We had 100k simultaneous viewers as peak during our weekend and there were about 1500 people watching games at the stage. Don't worry about the fact that ESWC wasn't a success. It was. Something is still wrong with the idea that you expect players to have to contact you to get an update on the money owed to them. If you owe someone money, the responsibility is on you to pay it it. Or at least that's how I think it should be. I think the same, but he thought it was wise to PM me saying I put ESWC in bad light for no reason and I might not get invited next year because of it. lol.
Dude, fuck this.
Ridiculous.
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On November 01 2011 07:33 FlyingDJ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:25 iNcontroL wrote:On November 01 2011 07:11 FlyingDJ wrote:
Well, this thread pretty much shows how most have not been around for a long time.
It's clear that most StarCraft 2 players have not been exposed the the delays in paying out prize money because they were rarely part of major esports tournaments before the release of that game. Ask someone who's been playing before 2009. That was when ESL was held in high regard because they paid out, even if it took a long time. Not a thing you could take for granted.
Now with money being thrown at SC2 like there's no tomorrow, everyone here is suddenly going crazy about how delays cannot be and how apparently players starve when they're not being paid on time. A couple of years ago you would have ended up with no tournaments at all had you decided to boycott those who had delayed payout in prizes. That's what this has always been like. Does it need to change? Probably, but it's not going to happen over night. ESL is one of the only tournaments that made it through the recession that followed 2008, and they don't get the amounts of venture capital that MLG carries around these days.
Instead of posting about it on a forum, the players might consider actually forming some kind of organisation to help in those matters. Doesn't seem too much work to me. And even if not, they could just boycott the tournaments they think do not pay out prize money on time. What's that, there are almost none left then? Oh well...
It's such a hypocrisy that everyone is always applauding insane prize pools and players tend to follow the sums instead of the reputation yet at the same time, any delay is totally unacceptable. Do you honestly believe most of the current tournaments have a sustainable business model that returns their investment? hmm kinda odd to call you out on this but the thread starter is ClouD.. formerly ToT)Cloud( from BW and various other top teams in that time. Tyler has chimed in.. a player from BW as well who has played for a decade. IdrA, myself.. the list kind of goes on. It seems unwise to write this entire thread off and basically call everyone SC2 newbs. To make matters worse you are kind of suggesting that people should be appreciative that ESL pays at all.. and that it used to be "held in high regard" as if that makes it ok to be late? The best and really the ONLY reply possible is "hey sorry, there is a lot of redtape and we are aware it isn't optimal but we are doing our best" or something along those lines. Not "shutup at least we pay you sc2 novices!" You're all old school BW pros, but that also means you missed out on most of the major tournaments that developed after 2003 because BW was not in them...CPL, all the ESL tournaments, WSVG etc. Ask someone like Grubby or any Counter-Strike professional, I am certain his attitude is a little more relaxed because they have experienced it over the course of years. Paying out late is not okay. But I also think a thread like this is counter-productive. 90% of the posters here just have a very naive understanding of how esports business works, so we're going around in circles. The players should take action in an organised way. And while I do not believe anyone should be appreciative of tournaments paying at all, I still believe that players have contributed to inflated prize pools that are paid out way too late because they a) kept showing up to the tournaments that did just that and b) used prize money as a deciding factor for where to go instead of the tournament's reputation. I don't think anyone should shut up. Well, those who don't have a clue should, and those affected should get organised.
Why is such a thread counterproductive? Would you even care about what a player foundation has to say to you "behind the scenes"? Making such a thing public forces ppl to react, and thats what we need.
I think every party will get their opportunity to make their statements within the next few days and things will clear up, but initially to start things off, making the raw problem public cannot be wrong imo
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On November 01 2011 07:42 jorge_the_awesome wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:39 mYNDIG wrote:On November 01 2011 07:37 jorge_the_awesome wrote:
WORD TO ALL PLAYERS:
As far as I know (according to tax lawyer relatives) a check is any sort of instruction from the bank. Therefore, the large checks they give you on stage CAN be redeemed, if they contain sender/recipient/amount info. The big checks they give you are just for show and has no real effect. They're designed to be just for show. Legally, they can be cashed. The bank teller might not accept it, and nobody usually cashes them, but legally, the can be cashed. Similarly, any piece of paper that is signed and has payment info can be cashed. You'd probably have to get the bank manager, but the tournament tries to hold you up, you can legally (at least in the US) cash it.
I only know in Norway, and there they won't work. But what the rest of the world does is not something I know xD
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On November 01 2011 07:29 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:27 Enhancer_ wrote:On November 01 2011 07:01 quakerix wrote:On November 01 2011 06:04 AndersR. wrote:
Kinda feel like ESWC has been bashed a bit too much in this thread, the owners now are not the ones who were known for not paying out the money, that where the previous owners who went bankruptcy with the brand. I'm pretty sure that the current owners have done a fine job paying out, at least as far as i remember that was what Na'Vi.cs said last year after they won it. Thank you. I'm extremely surprised that aTnCloud already posted about ESWC not paying out just a few days after the event. We didn't even finish up logistically and this event is already listed in this topic. Ok, i can imagine that because of the previous company going bankrupt the brand had some damage. But posting this before even contacting us is a bit harsh towards the new owners. Last year they paid out just a few weeks after the event and now we didn't even had the chance. You could have contacted us in 100 ways, your management has direct contacts with us, you could have replied to your invite email you could have even gone to our website and look up contact information. Anyway; i messaged you privately and i also already replied to you in the ESWC topic a few days earlier. Give us a break and we'll contact you as soon as possible. On November 01 2011 01:48 Jcnorheim wrote:
I am sorry that this happens.
Many community figures talk about how events compete with one another for viewers, and I think that this is definitely one of the factors that concerns at least some viewers.
On the other side of the coin though, ESWC probably didn't get nearly enough viewers due to having to compete with Blizzcon. So they already lost the competition for viewers. Maybe ESWC will use that as an excuse to disappear again. We had 100k simultaneous viewers as peak during our weekend and there were about 1500 people watching games at the stage. Don't worry about the fact that ESWC wasn't a success. It was. Something is still wrong with the idea that you expect players to have to contact you to get an update on the money owed to them. If you owe someone money, the responsibility is on you to pay it it. Or at least that's how I think it should be. I think the same, but he thought it was wise to PM me saying I put ESWC in bad light for no reason and I might not get invited next year because of it. lol.
My god that is disgusting. Cloud you are a true hero of the community for putting this out there. fighting~
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On November 01 2011 07:44 mYNDIG wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:42 jorge_the_awesome wrote:On November 01 2011 07:39 mYNDIG wrote:On November 01 2011 07:37 jorge_the_awesome wrote:
WORD TO ALL PLAYERS:
As far as I know (according to tax lawyer relatives) a check is any sort of instruction from the bank. Therefore, the large checks they give you on stage CAN be redeemed, if they contain sender/recipient/amount info. The big checks they give you are just for show and has no real effect. They're designed to be just for show. Legally, they can be cashed. The bank teller might not accept it, and nobody usually cashes them, but legally, the can be cashed. Similarly, any piece of paper that is signed and has payment info can be cashed. You'd probably have to get the bank manager, but the tournament tries to hold you up, you can legally (at least in the US) cash it. I only know in Norway, and there they won't work. But what the rest of the world does is not something I know xD
Have you ever tried? I know nothing about law in Norway, though.
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On November 01 2011 06:36 svefnleysi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:24 Lolli92 wrote:
I think this should be a topic for a Day9 Daily or a F*** Slasher episode !! This should be called out on SotG, Inside the Game, Fuck Slasher, and basically every SC2 media outlet. The organizations responsible need to get the bad publicity they deserve.IGN: If you think it's not a big deal because it's "not even been 90 days" then that just makes you sound retarded.Not even paying the winner of IPL season 1 yet? Any and all respect I had for IPL was just flushed down the toilet.
Your post is very ignorant and I will prove that with facts.
Your post in my opinion is very stupid and IPL doesn't deserve those comments.
First off if you had any idea of the scene in SC2 and all the events IPL is a top 3 if not the best overall. Number 1 in production. In a recent interview they lost a shit ton of money (6 figs range) and didn't think anything of it because it was simply for the fucking good of eSports.
You're obviously going off of IdrA's situation, so lets talk about it. They probably have on their books right now that a check was written/issued out to him. He just never got it and they are looking into it as in tracing it as we speak. They might have already just issued another one as IGN.Joshy already touched upon this.
Do you have any idea or understanding of how large organizations work? This isn't 1998. IGN isn't your little cheat website for nintendo 64 anymore. They're multi million dollar organization. They can't just throw money at something and not account for it. All the production value they put into these events takes time to set up, even the winning prize money. They seem to do things right, so maybe one of the things they will address is paying players on winning day.
Like they also said, there isn't just some guy in a room with XXXXXX money ready to pay out. IPL comes from IGN. They must get things approved. As a pro gamer in this thread already stated 90 days for such a big prize pool is reasonable.
Nobody cares if you don't decide to not turn on IPL again, however I guarantee you the large majority of the community loves IPL as they continually improve and host the best events. I don't see how the average SC2 fan can agree with your post.
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EPT
