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On November 01 2011 07:47 Zinjil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:29 aTnClouD wrote:On November 01 2011 07:27 Enhancer_ wrote:On November 01 2011 07:01 quakerix wrote:On November 01 2011 06:04 AndersR. wrote:
Kinda feel like ESWC has been bashed a bit too much in this thread, the owners now are not the ones who were known for not paying out the money, that where the previous owners who went bankruptcy with the brand. I'm pretty sure that the current owners have done a fine job paying out, at least as far as i remember that was what Na'Vi.cs said last year after they won it. Thank you. I'm extremely surprised that aTnCloud already posted about ESWC not paying out just a few days after the event. We didn't even finish up logistically and this event is already listed in this topic. Ok, i can imagine that because of the previous company going bankrupt the brand had some damage. But posting this before even contacting us is a bit harsh towards the new owners. Last year they paid out just a few weeks after the event and now we didn't even had the chance. You could have contacted us in 100 ways, your management has direct contacts with us, you could have replied to your invite email you could have even gone to our website and look up contact information. Anyway; i messaged you privately and i also already replied to you in the ESWC topic a few days earlier. Give us a break and we'll contact you as soon as possible. On November 01 2011 01:48 Jcnorheim wrote:
I am sorry that this happens.
Many community figures talk about how events compete with one another for viewers, and I think that this is definitely one of the factors that concerns at least some viewers.
On the other side of the coin though, ESWC probably didn't get nearly enough viewers due to having to compete with Blizzcon. So they already lost the competition for viewers. Maybe ESWC will use that as an excuse to disappear again. We had 100k simultaneous viewers as peak during our weekend and there were about 1500 people watching games at the stage. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tu7Fa.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/E1UWs.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0YlVL.jpg) Don't worry about the fact that ESWC wasn't a success. It was. Something is still wrong with the idea that you expect players to have to contact you to get an update on the money owed to them. If you owe someone money, the responsibility is on you to pay it it. Or at least that's how I think it should be. I think the same, but he thought it was wise to PM me saying I put ESWC in bad light for no reason and I might not get invited next year because of it. lol. This here is the post that firmly establishes cloud as the guy you don't fuck with. The thread is a great idea, the more progamers that speak up about unpaid winnings the less this kind of thing will happen. If word gets out that a specific organizer either doesn't pay or is notoriously delinquent people will be less inclined to watch their tournaments, as players will be less interested in playing games that they might or might not ever get paid for.
Lol, I totally agree with cloud. If you don't even bother contacting people that you owe money to, you deserve to get put in the bad light. Your OBLIGATION is to contact the prize winners' and give them the money ASAP. You seriously can't defend yourself and not invite him next year because of YOUR OWN fault. Geez. If the prize giving is gonna be delayed TELL THE PLAYERS. Dont get chased up or you look bad, like all the other tournaments cloud was in.
Good on you cloud for bringing this into the spotlight.
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On November 01 2011 07:29 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:27 Enhancer_ wrote:On November 01 2011 07:01 quakerix wrote:On November 01 2011 06:04 AndersR. wrote:
Kinda feel like ESWC has been bashed a bit too much in this thread, the owners now are not the ones who were known for not paying out the money, that where the previous owners who went bankruptcy with the brand. I'm pretty sure that the current owners have done a fine job paying out, at least as far as i remember that was what Na'Vi.cs said last year after they won it. Thank you. I'm extremely surprised that aTnCloud already posted about ESWC not paying out just a few days after the event. We didn't even finish up logistically and this event is already listed in this topic. Ok, i can imagine that because of the previous company going bankrupt the brand had some damage. But posting this before even contacting us is a bit harsh towards the new owners. Last year they paid out just a few weeks after the event and now we didn't even had the chance. You could have contacted us in 100 ways, your management has direct contacts with us, you could have replied to your invite email you could have even gone to our website and look up contact information. Anyway; i messaged you privately and i also already replied to you in the ESWC topic a few days earlier. Give us a break and we'll contact you as soon as possible. On November 01 2011 01:48 Jcnorheim wrote:
I am sorry that this happens.
Many community figures talk about how events compete with one another for viewers, and I think that this is definitely one of the factors that concerns at least some viewers.
On the other side of the coin though, ESWC probably didn't get nearly enough viewers due to having to compete with Blizzcon. So they already lost the competition for viewers. Maybe ESWC will use that as an excuse to disappear again. We had 100k simultaneous viewers as peak during our weekend and there were about 1500 people watching games at the stage. Don't worry about the fact that ESWC wasn't a success. It was. Something is still wrong with the idea that you expect players to have to contact you to get an update on the money owed to them. If you owe someone money, the responsibility is on you to pay it it. Or at least that's how I think it should be. I think the same, but he thought it was wise to PM me saying I put ESWC in bad light for no reason and I might not get invited next year because of it. lol.
I wanted to report that post because I got disgusted. and no, ofcourse not because you said it. Because they said it. That.. is just unacceptable. The only thing you are doing are telling your fans, how stuff really work(they dont). And the fact that they would even consider this make me boycott all of their tourneys. I'm frustrated as hell, but I guess all of you are aswell!
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On November 01 2011 07:56 fB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:49 Teiwaz wrote:If you take a brand, you take either EVERYTHING or NOTHING. So stop whining about people still combining ESWC with shitty tournament organisation  couldn't agree more. that's why i think the new owners of ESWC should take responsibility and pay out the prize money that was never paid out in 2008. and since their tournament apparently is such a "success" this should imo be a high priority.
I think in this special case I can even agree to that
But hey, reading how he tried to fuck with ClouD... seriously ESWC... GTFO!
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
btw it has been proven one of the absolute best ways to get tourneys to reform/pay money is to publicly out them.
It is of course met with tourneys saying "you are hurting esports" and threats of "we won't invite you any more" but if people are willing to run the risk of being unfairly punished for the poor behavior of tourneys we eventually will see a day when tourneys that don't pay / don't respect deadlines will be punished.
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On November 01 2011 07:48 mYNDIG wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:46 jorge_the_awesome wrote:On November 01 2011 07:44 mYNDIG wrote:On November 01 2011 07:42 jorge_the_awesome wrote:On November 01 2011 07:39 mYNDIG wrote:On November 01 2011 07:37 jorge_the_awesome wrote:
WORD TO ALL PLAYERS:
As far as I know (according to tax lawyer relatives) a check is any sort of instruction from the bank. Therefore, the large checks they give you on stage CAN be redeemed, if they contain sender/recipient/amount info. The big checks they give you are just for show and has no real effect. They're designed to be just for show. Legally, they can be cashed. The bank teller might not accept it, and nobody usually cashes them, but legally, the can be cashed. Similarly, any piece of paper that is signed and has payment info can be cashed. You'd probably have to get the bank manager, but the tournament tries to hold you up, you can legally (at least in the US) cash it. I only know in Norway, and there they won't work. But what the rest of the world does is not something I know xD Have you ever tried? I know nothing about law in Norway, though. We tried (more as a joke though.) when we got a big check from a company sponsoring our school trip a few years back. We were told that we had to come back with the real check, that this was just for show, etc etc etc.
Heh, should've pushed a bit more. I don't know the US criteria for a check, but as long as it is one, you can redeem it if meets "The Nine Criteria for a Negotiable Instrument".
More about this at http://www.man1bank0.com/home.cfm?page=2 - great read (change the page number to go to the other pages)
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would it be so hard for tournaments to secure the money BEFORE the event started
it seems to me like the problem is that tourneys are promising promised money and don't actually have the money on them so the fall further and further behind
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On November 01 2011 08:02 iNcontroL wrote:
btw it has been proven one of the absolute best ways to get tourneys to reform/pay money is to publicly out them.
It is of course met with tourneys saying "you are hurting esports" and threats of "we won't invite you any more" but if people are willing to run the risk of being unfairly punished for the poor behavior of tourneys we eventually will see a day when tourneys that don't pay / don't respect deadlines will be punished.
I agree, but first step should always be to go directly to the tournament organisation. If that doesn't help, then I agree. Public statement is a good second choice.
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Well the prizepools are taken out of projected profit for each even + sponsor backing so its very normal that they don't get paid out immediately. With any luck these organizations will make some positive efforts to sort their shit out.
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I don't undertstand why it should take more than 2 weeks to get prizemoney to everyone.
Have the money BEFORE the event starts, have there bank account adress, etc BEFORE an event.
If sponsers are the reason people aren't getting paid try to get new sponsers. Or let it be known the sponsers don't care. Then people can stop supporting them untill they do something.
I think Carmac said IEM paid out 3 months after an event finishes? Why so long?
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On November 01 2011 08:00 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:58 hytonight wrote:
blizzard should be helping out here Blizzard isn't involved in this, nor should they be. They don't represent the players' or the tournaments' interest and have no basis to make any decision.
you need permission from blizz to run a tourney with prizes...
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On November 01 2011 07:36 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:29 aTnClouD wrote:On November 01 2011 07:27 Enhancer_ wrote:On November 01 2011 07:01 quakerix wrote:On November 01 2011 06:04 AndersR. wrote:
Kinda feel like ESWC has been bashed a bit too much in this thread, the owners now are not the ones who were known for not paying out the money, that where the previous owners who went bankruptcy with the brand. I'm pretty sure that the current owners have done a fine job paying out, at least as far as i remember that was what Na'Vi.cs said last year after they won it. Thank you. I'm extremely surprised that aTnCloud already posted about ESWC not paying out just a few days after the event. We didn't even finish up logistically and this event is already listed in this topic. Ok, i can imagine that because of the previous company going bankrupt the brand had some damage. But posting this before even contacting us is a bit harsh towards the new owners. Last year they paid out just a few weeks after the event and now we didn't even had the chance. You could have contacted us in 100 ways, your management has direct contacts with us, you could have replied to your invite email you could have even gone to our website and look up contact information. Anyway; i messaged you privately and i also already replied to you in the ESWC topic a few days earlier. Give us a break and we'll contact you as soon as possible. On November 01 2011 01:48 Jcnorheim wrote:
I am sorry that this happens.
Many community figures talk about how events compete with one another for viewers, and I think that this is definitely one of the factors that concerns at least some viewers.
On the other side of the coin though, ESWC probably didn't get nearly enough viewers due to having to compete with Blizzcon. So they already lost the competition for viewers. Maybe ESWC will use that as an excuse to disappear again. We had 100k simultaneous viewers as peak during our weekend and there were about 1500 people watching games at the stage. Don't worry about the fact that ESWC wasn't a success. It was. Something is still wrong with the idea that you expect players to have to contact you to get an update on the money owed to them. If you owe someone money, the responsibility is on you to pay it it. Or at least that's how I think it should be. I think the same, but he thought it was wise to PM me saying I put ESWC in bad light for no reason and I might not get invited next year because of it. lol. lol.. cloud putting it all on the line to be the people's champ! cloud fighting!
I agree "Cloud for president of the player union".
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On November 01 2011 07:05 jupidar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:03 aike wrote:On November 01 2011 07:01 jupidar wrote:
The business model is obviously flawed, but how can you change it? Tournaments, teams, and players all rely on sponsors. Sponsors can pay money BEFORE tournaments happen. Instead of relying on future money for tournaments, get the money and then plan your tournament season. It's kind of like how MLG does it, except they actually have capital. MLG has stream revenue and spectators pay to watch their live games. MLG is sort of nothing like all the other tournaments around.
MLG gets investment capital .. the money they make from streams would barely pay for prizing.. let alone the overhead to run their events. I venture to say that their model is not much different then most.. but because they get large sums of money from investment..they are smart enough to hold back the prizing amount (which we all agree is pretty small in comparison)... probably a smart idea.
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On November 01 2011 08:02 iNcontroL wrote:
btw it has been proven one of the absolute best ways to get tourneys to reform/pay money is to publicly out them.
It is of course met with tourneys saying "you are hurting esports" and threats of "we won't invite you any more" but if people are willing to run the risk of being unfairly punished for the poor behavior of tourneys we eventually will see a day when tourneys that don't pay / don't respect deadlines will be punished.
I gotta agree 100% with you. Its time we put these tournaments on blast and on blast like mega phone blast. As a growing e-sport that sc2 is we cannot have teams paying for people to play across the world for players to get stiffed. Even paid over 3 months imo is not acceptable. The fact is if you are going to advertise the money that you plan to pay out in a prize pool. You better damn well have that money from the sponsors the DAY OF the event if not then its just a sham. These people are making money during these tournaments and if they cant pay out the money then we either gotta sue them and make it a huge public display to bring down their publicity to the point that their company never hosts another tournament again or force their hand to pay within a month of the tournament i believe is acceptable.
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On November 01 2011 07:29 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:27 Enhancer_ wrote:On November 01 2011 07:01 quakerix wrote:On November 01 2011 06:04 AndersR. wrote:
Kinda feel like ESWC has been bashed a bit too much in this thread, the owners now are not the ones who were known for not paying out the money, that where the previous owners who went bankruptcy with the brand. I'm pretty sure that the current owners have done a fine job paying out, at least as far as i remember that was what Na'Vi.cs said last year after they won it. Thank you. I'm extremely surprised that aTnCloud already posted about ESWC not paying out just a few days after the event. We didn't even finish up logistically and this event is already listed in this topic. Ok, i can imagine that because of the previous company going bankrupt the brand had some damage. But posting this before even contacting us is a bit harsh towards the new owners. Last year they paid out just a few weeks after the event and now we didn't even had the chance. You could have contacted us in 100 ways, your management has direct contacts with us, you could have replied to your invite email you could have even gone to our website and look up contact information. Anyway; i messaged you privately and i also already replied to you in the ESWC topic a few days earlier. Give us a break and we'll contact you as soon as possible. On November 01 2011 01:48 Jcnorheim wrote:
I am sorry that this happens.
Many community figures talk about how events compete with one another for viewers, and I think that this is definitely one of the factors that concerns at least some viewers.
On the other side of the coin though, ESWC probably didn't get nearly enough viewers due to having to compete with Blizzcon. So they already lost the competition for viewers. Maybe ESWC will use that as an excuse to disappear again. We had 100k simultaneous viewers as peak during our weekend and there were about 1500 people watching games at the stage. Don't worry about the fact that ESWC wasn't a success. It was. Something is still wrong with the idea that you expect players to have to contact you to get an update on the money owed to them. If you owe someone money, the responsibility is on you to pay it it. Or at least that's how I think it should be. I think the same, but he thought it was wise to PM me saying I put ESWC in bad light for no reason and I might not get invited next year because of it. lol.
Well, isn't he right ?
I think it's really not normal that so many tournaments fail at paying the players in time, but you just shouldn't have put ESWC in that list. That's not deserved at all, the tourney is super recent, and the owners are not the ones who failed to pay players before so WTF is wrong with you ?
I, for sure, would not invite you to next ESWC if I was them !! You put them in your "hall of shame" list for no reason, when they just made a great tournament in which you managed to win some good money, so... yeah, don't come back we won't miss you
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OK.... Cloud, If you play Terran you have no right taking any credit for your results anyway (never mind actually getting money for them!!)... .GTFO and play a race that takes skill plz.
User was temp banned for this post.
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United States5162 Posts
On November 01 2011 08:04 hytonight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 08:00 Myles wrote:On November 01 2011 07:58 hytonight wrote:
blizzard should be helping out here Blizzard isn't involved in this, nor should they be. They don't represent the players' or the tournaments' interest and have no basis to make any decision. you need permission from blizz to run a tourney with prizes...
No, you don't. The only requirements is that if the prize is greater then 5000 USD that you have to negotiate with Blizzard and give them a share.
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On November 01 2011 08:05 csn_JohnClark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:05 jupidar wrote:On November 01 2011 07:03 aike wrote:On November 01 2011 07:01 jupidar wrote:
The business model is obviously flawed, but how can you change it? Tournaments, teams, and players all rely on sponsors. Sponsors can pay money BEFORE tournaments happen. Instead of relying on future money for tournaments, get the money and then plan your tournament season. It's kind of like how MLG does it, except they actually have capital. MLG has stream revenue and spectators pay to watch their live games. MLG is sort of nothing like all the other tournaments around. MLG gets investment capital .. the money they make from streams would barely pay for prizing.. let alone the overhead to run their events. I venture to say that their model is not much different then most.. but because they get large sums of money from investment..they are smart enough to hold back the prizing amount (which we all agree is pretty small in comparison)... probably a smart idea.
yes... $1mil for this year is a small amount :\
On November 01 2011 08:07 Myles wrote:
No, you don't. The only requirements is that if the prize is greater then 5000 USD that you have to negotiate with Blizzard and give them a share.
Actually you need a license if it's under that too, but they don't really care a lot of the time if it's not a big name tournament (like some local $200 LAN or something). Blizzard not only owns SC2, but they own all content created with SC2. Including replays and maps. If you make money off of a SC2 tournament in any way and don't have blizzards permission, they can sue you.
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Cloud, You have gained a new fanbase! including me! I love all the progamers who is honest. Have a problem, then say it!
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On November 01 2011 07:11 FlyingDJ wrote:
Well, this thread pretty much shows how most have not been around for a long time.
It's clear that most StarCraft 2 players have not been exposed the the delays in paying out prize money because they were rarely part of major esports tournaments before the release of that game. Ask someone who's been playing before 2009. That was when ESL was held in high regard because they paid out, even if it took a long time. Not a thing you could take for granted.
Now with money being thrown at SC2 like there's no tomorrow, everyone here is suddenly going crazy about how delays cannot be and how apparently players starve when they're not being paid on time. A couple of years ago you would have ended up with no tournaments at all had you decided to boycott those who had delayed payout in prizes. That's what this has always been like. Does it need to change? Probably, but it's not going to happen over night. ESL is one of the only tournaments that made it through the recession that followed 2008, and they don't get the amounts of venture capital that MLG carries around these days.
Instead of posting about it on a forum, the players might consider actually forming some kind of organisation to help in those matters. Doesn't seem too much work to me. And even if not, they could just boycott the tournaments they think do not pay out prize money on time. What's that, there are almost none left then? Oh well...
It's such a hypocrisy that everyone is always applauding insane prize pools and players tend to follow the sums instead of the reputation yet at the same time, any delay is totally unacceptable. Do you honestly believe most of the current tournaments have a sustainable business model that returns their investment?
just now getting to this post.. but very well said!
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On November 01 2011 08:06 SolidMustard wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 07:29 aTnClouD wrote:On November 01 2011 07:27 Enhancer_ wrote:On November 01 2011 07:01 quakerix wrote:On November 01 2011 06:04 AndersR. wrote:
Kinda feel like ESWC has been bashed a bit too much in this thread, the owners now are not the ones who were known for not paying out the money, that where the previous owners who went bankruptcy with the brand. I'm pretty sure that the current owners have done a fine job paying out, at least as far as i remember that was what Na'Vi.cs said last year after they won it. Thank you. I'm extremely surprised that aTnCloud already posted about ESWC not paying out just a few days after the event. We didn't even finish up logistically and this event is already listed in this topic. Ok, i can imagine that because of the previous company going bankrupt the brand had some damage. But posting this before even contacting us is a bit harsh towards the new owners. Last year they paid out just a few weeks after the event and now we didn't even had the chance. You could have contacted us in 100 ways, your management has direct contacts with us, you could have replied to your invite email you could have even gone to our website and look up contact information. Anyway; i messaged you privately and i also already replied to you in the ESWC topic a few days earlier. Give us a break and we'll contact you as soon as possible. On November 01 2011 01:48 Jcnorheim wrote:
I am sorry that this happens.
Many community figures talk about how events compete with one another for viewers, and I think that this is definitely one of the factors that concerns at least some viewers.
On the other side of the coin though, ESWC probably didn't get nearly enough viewers due to having to compete with Blizzcon. So they already lost the competition for viewers. Maybe ESWC will use that as an excuse to disappear again. We had 100k simultaneous viewers as peak during our weekend and there were about 1500 people watching games at the stage. Don't worry about the fact that ESWC wasn't a success. It was. Something is still wrong with the idea that you expect players to have to contact you to get an update on the money owed to them. If you owe someone money, the responsibility is on you to pay it it. Or at least that's how I think it should be. I think the same, but he thought it was wise to PM me saying I put ESWC in bad light for no reason and I might not get invited next year because of it. lol. Well, isn't he right ? I think it's really not normal that so many tournaments fail at paying the players in time, but you just shouldn't have put ESWC in that list. That's not deserved at all, the tourney is super recent, and the owners are not the ones who failed to pay players before so WTF is wrong with you ? I, for sure, would not invite you to next ESWC if I was them !! You put them in your "hall of shame" list for no reason, when they just made a great tournament in which you managed to win some good money, so... yeah, don't come back we won't miss you
yeh he kinda put a list of all tournaments that were oustanding at this current timer regardlessof when it was. But still, to send a PM like that what a douche bag.....
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EPT
