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On November 01 2011 06:40 BluePanther wrote:
I have a question for the progamers out there (even those who only make a little here or there):
I am a law student. It is clear to me that you have legal recourse to secure your prize money. However it's not worth hiring a lawyer because we charge more than it's worth for say... a 100 dollar prize. I get that.
However, would there be an interest in a lawyer who does these things for you guys? Something like a "players union"? I'm just musing to myself, but I think an organization that would do this would really help you guys out. I'm not suggesting something like a Kespa "we run the sport" type organization, but literally... a players union. I think it'd help a lot if organizers knew they'd have a lawyer up their ass if they didn't pay promptly (not to mention the fact you could sue for interest for delayed payments, get default judgments, and hold organizers responsible for promises). At first it might be a lot of litigation for not a lot of return, but within a short time you'd set a precedent that you expect to be paid and paid on time.
I know I'm just thinking out loud, but what do you guys think? I'd be interested in talking about this, I love contract law and I love what you guys do.
This player union idea has cropped up a lot in this thread and I like the idea. The problem is that a union of that kind would need money in order to operate. So where should this money come from? Should they get a cut from player's winnings or salaries? I doubt anyone would find sponsors for a union. I think this is quite a hard thing to work out before anything like this could get started.
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On November 01 2011 06:47 Antrox-Robin wrote:
I read through the whole thread and it was it was pretty shocking.
Sometimes funny Naniwa calling out that D.Devil guy that scammed him back in WC3
But since the thread is getting so big it would be realy cool if someone would quote all pro posts and the answers some of the organizers gave to give more oversight about the very interesting insights we are getting here.
Maybe in a new thread or something because this will hopefully get a 100+ pages with an important or interesting post on every page.
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/lv9cq/prize_money_in_starcraft_2/c2vvzw0
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To all the people that say we need a kespa or a players union, how is that gonna prevent organizations from paying out within a reasonable time period?(say 60 days tops). I feel like the same excuse can come up(we don't have the money yet or its in the mail, then we don't have the money yet) and what could this said 'players union' do about it?
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On November 01 2011 06:54 ReachTheSky wrote:
To all the people that say we need a kespa or a players union, how is that gonna prevent organizations from paying out within a reasonable time period?(say 60 days tops). I feel like the same excuse can come up(we don't have the money yet or its in the mail, then we don't have the money yet) and what could this said 'players union' do about it?
Not support that organization anymore....
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8751 Posts
On November 01 2011 06:48 tabbott26 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:41 Whitewing wrote:On November 01 2011 06:23 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On November 01 2011 06:00 ThisGS wrote:
So many people in this thread think ESL doesnt pay.
Thats WRONG.
They always pay, just really, really slow.
As Carmac posted, its a bit better @ IEM events than national events (eps) / random other cups That is a really bad way to put it. Time changes the value of money. It's not the same thing come late. It's something different. Withholding payment for so long is like requiring every prize winner to give ESL a free loan for the amount of money won for the period of time the money is withheld. Loans shouldn't be free. ESL should pay promptly or pay a late fee or pay interest. Otherwise they absolutely are exploiting their players. Tyler is 100% correct: it's the difference between present value and future value of money. If I promise you $100 for winning a tournament, and give you that after 1 year, yes, you did get $100 technically, but the present value of that $100 is a bit lower, because you could have put that money into a savings account and collected interest on it for that entire year, or invested it elsewhere. When you start looking at larger sums like 600 euros here, $2,000 there, it really starts to add up, and it really hurts the players badly. Ahh, but what if the exchange rate doubled over the course of the year :p
Of course by your smiley you aren't completely serious. But in that case, it's like the tournament forced you to invest in a specific foreign currency. If you took the money immediately, you'd have the option to invest any anything you want or use it in any way you wish. So, what if another currency quadrupled and you wanted to invest but couldn't? 
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On November 01 2011 06:53 tabbott26 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:47 Antrox-Robin wrote:
I read through the whole thread and it was it was pretty shocking.
Sometimes funny Naniwa calling out that D.Devil guy that scammed him back in WC3
But since the thread is getting so big it would be realy cool if someone would quote all pro posts and the answers some of the organizers gave to give more oversight about the very interesting insights we are getting here.
Maybe in a new thread or something because this will hopefully get a 100+ pages with an important or interesting post on every page. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/lv9cq/prize_money_in_starcraft_2/c2vvzw0
Thanx man thats exactly what i looked for even though i would have prefered it on TL.
Well shouldn't complain if i am to lazy to make one myself :D
Nice oversight hope it stays updated
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On November 01 2011 06:50 ladyumbra wrote:
So many pages to read, assuming no one has asked this yet does anyone know if this is the norm in all E-psorts? Did Grubby and Moon have to put up with this in their warcraft 3 days ?
I remember hearing complaints about tourney payouts in War3. I have no idea how common it was. Some of the CS players have chimed in about how this happened there too.
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On November 01 2011 06:55 ssg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:54 ReachTheSky wrote:
To all the people that say we need a kespa or a players union, how is that gonna prevent organizations from paying out within a reasonable time period?(say 60 days tops). I feel like the same excuse can come up(we don't have the money yet or its in the mail, then we don't have the money yet) and what could this said 'players union' do about it? Not support that organization anymore....
exactly my point, a players union or kespa wouldn't do shit.
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On November 01 2011 06:48 quickclickz wrote:
So what you're saying is we're going to dismiss all the other organizers who are screwing up, and as a result don't get a consistent revenue from sponsors, as normal in ESports and then instead of complimenting MLG's business model of PLANNING FAR IN ADVANCE we simply dismiss their success and skills by saying they have a ton of money instead of questioning or asking where or how they got their money (read: it was from employing a great business model and getting an MBA).
Uh, I'm not dismissing the other organizers. They're doing it wrong, clearly, but you have to walk before you can run. If you have to bow to sponsors to begin, that's how it works. People start small before they get big.
Unfortunately, eSports was growing before the recession hit and everyone pulled their money out. Now things are starting to pick back up again, and some organizers have far more credentials and education to back up what they are doing. Things will slowly fall into place, but this situation is not going to go away.
I don't remember if you were the person who studied economics, I've been replying a lot in this thread, but if you are, you should know that relying on venture capital is not a proper model. Especially when you're getting more rounds of it without being able to post a profit. I think it was quoted that they (MLG) might barely make a profit on 2011? I'd have to look back into it, but I'm pretty sure that's the case.
On November 01 2011 06:48 quickclickz wrote:
Your logic boils down to certain shitty companies not being able to think in advance and therefore unable to pay everyone out in time. However you and all your "experience in Esports" thinks this is ok because everyone does it... meanwhile 80% of this everyone group ends up going bankrupt. Either you graduated out of a community college and never went for grad school or you just feel like trolling us.
I never said it was okay. I just hate these types of threads because people are unaware of how things work. I'm not condoning the actions or occurrences, I'm just saying this is the way it is.
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Wow, yeah. I knew about ESL, and im happy there are no probs. with my favorite tournaments (MLG, GSL).
It concerns me that apperently there are some buisness "noobs" organizing these things!
Well, I hope these companies will take their job more serious in the future, since we as an e-Sport community want to be leaders in affairs like these and not have (if it ever gets that far) media crapping about the e-Sport buisness like in football.
I love the fact that Cloud made a threat. These important information should be availeble for everybody. This is democracy!
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On November 01 2011 06:55 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:48 tabbott26 wrote:On November 01 2011 06:41 Whitewing wrote:On November 01 2011 06:23 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On November 01 2011 06:00 ThisGS wrote:
So many people in this thread think ESL doesnt pay.
Thats WRONG.
They always pay, just really, really slow.
As Carmac posted, its a bit better @ IEM events than national events (eps) / random other cups That is a really bad way to put it. Time changes the value of money. It's not the same thing come late. It's something different. Withholding payment for so long is like requiring every prize winner to give ESL a free loan for the amount of money won for the period of time the money is withheld. Loans shouldn't be free. ESL should pay promptly or pay a late fee or pay interest. Otherwise they absolutely are exploiting their players. Tyler is 100% correct: it's the difference between present value and future value of money. If I promise you $100 for winning a tournament, and give you that after 1 year, yes, you did get $100 technically, but the present value of that $100 is a bit lower, because you could have put that money into a savings account and collected interest on it for that entire year, or invested it elsewhere. When you start looking at larger sums like 600 euros here, $2,000 there, it really starts to add up, and it really hurts the players badly. Ahh, but what if the exchange rate doubled over the course of the year :p Of course by your smiley you aren't completely serious. But in that case, it's like the tournament forced you to invest in a specific foreign currency. If you took the money immediately, you'd have the option to invest any anything you want or use it in any way you wish. So, what if another currency quadrupled and you wanted to invest but couldn't?
Did you study economics in school? Between what I read on these forums and what I've heard on your stream/podcasts you sound like an economist. It makes me happy.
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On November 01 2011 06:48 quickclickz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:40 divito wrote:
MLG is able to do it because one, their events are planned far in advance, and they have tons of venture capital; they got $10 million in Q1 of this year. It has nothing to do with their business model. They are over $50 million in venture capital to date. So what you're saying is we're going to dismiss all the other organizers who are screwing up, and as a result don't get a consistent revenue from sponsors, as normal in ESports and then instead of complimenting MLG's business model of PLANNING FAR IN ADVANCE we simply dismiss their success and skills by saying they have a ton of money instead of questioning or asking where or how they got their money (read: it was from employing a great business model and getting an MBA). Your logic boils down to certain shitty companies not being able to think in advance and therefore unable to pay everyone out in time. However you and all your "experience in Esports" thinks this is ok because everyone does it... meanwhile 80% of this everyone group ends up going bankrupt. Either you graduated out of a community college and never went for grad school or you just feel like trolling us.
I have to quote this so it doesn't get lost. So you're saying getting tons of venture capital is "employing a great business model"? You cannot be serious.
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On November 01 2011 06:49 VPGeneralHans wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:40 BluePanther wrote:
I have a question for the progamers out there (even those who only make a little here or there):
I am a law student. It is clear to me that you have legal recourse to secure your prize money. However it's not worth hiring a lawyer because we charge more than it's worth for say... a 100 dollar prize. I get that.
However, would there be an interest in a lawyer who does these things for you guys? Something like a "players union"? I'm just musing to myself, but I think an organization that would do this would really help you guys out. I'm not suggesting something like a Kespa "we run the sport" type organization, but literally... a players union. I think it'd help a lot if organizers knew they'd have a lawyer up their ass if they didn't pay promptly (not to mention the fact you could sue for interest for delayed payments, get default judgments, and hold organizers responsible for promises). At first it might be a lot of litigation for not a lot of return, but within a short time you'd set a precedent that you expect to be paid and paid on time.
I know I'm just thinking out loud, but what do you guys think? I'd be interested in talking about this, I love contract law and I love what you guys do. Tournaments and even the companies that run them are all in different parts of the world. You'd have to have a players association that has lawyers registered in like 20 countries lol. So not viable
That's not completely true. One lawyer cannot do it alone, no, but one lawyer could coordinate it. You wouldn't be paying 20 full time lawyers, is the point.
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It's good that this is coming out. I knew it was bad sometimes but I didn't know it was this bad :O. Of course props to MLG and other tournaments that do pay out their players in time.
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Well, then.
Sounds like we need to put some community pressure on these sketghy tournaments.
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This has been a problem for a long time in eSports and most likely for as long as tournaments have been around. Not every tournament is the same, of course. I have had to wait around 1 year for some payments, but I personally haven't had any money NOT be sent, just took awhile. I think I have had more problems with my own teams managers being liars...
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On November 01 2011 06:40 divito wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:23 xerathul wrote:
I think you just showed why eSports is "still in a volatile stage" with this kind of disrespect towards players and short-sightedness. Thankfully not every organizer think like you. Players basically should not pay the price for the fact that event organizers suck at their job. It's not a matter of thinking like me. I've been in those discussions with sponsors. A lot of them are wary of putting money into eSports, especially years ago when it was a much smaller thing. You either agree to their terms, or you don't get money. Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:23 doko100 wrote:
I study economics and marketing and I have never heard of a business that has a combinded monthly expenditure of 30.000 dollar opposed to a calculated monthly income of 5.000 dollars. This business is bound to go bankrupt. I was just using the numbers as an example. And yes, those types of companies are bound to go bankrupt. Did you see what happened to ESWC the first time around? CPL? WSVG? They all had issues with payouts, angered players, sponsors and didn't get support to continue as organizations. I'm simplifying all of their issues, but the point is the same. Very few eSports companies have a solid model to build from, and they don't have the consistent revenue streams to allow for the things you all are talking about. Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:23 doko100 wrote:
It's really quite simple, if you have the money, host the tournament, if you don't, then don't host the tournament. If you have a "payment after delivery" contract with your sponsor as in "you only get payed once your tournament was held" you are quite obviously doing it wrong, you give your sponsor an easy way out "oh hey look the tournament wasn't succesful, let's just not pay them". It seems to me like you have no idea how economics work or how income stands in relation to expenditure. If it was as easy as you say, everyone would be doing it. And like I said before, it's not always "payment after delivery," it's company can only pay X amount of money per month. Unless an organizer is willing to plan, and there are some of those of course, several months or years in advance, getting all the required money is generally not possible, and you get stories like these. I've been in eSports for a long time, so this is nothing new. I've been in negotiations, I've seen what sponsors require and I see that they don't have the funds to make everything instantly work. Everyone has to be flexible until eSports becomes a bit more consistent and reliable. Unfortunately, that flex at this point falls on the organizers and players that are stuck waiting. Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:23 doko100 wrote:
MLG is doing it right, I don't know their business model, but I could imagine that it looks something like this.
MLG is able to do it because one, their events are planned far in advance, and they have tons of venture capital; they got $10 million in Q1 of this year. It has nothing to do with their business model. They are over $50 million in venture capital to date.
The problem still is that organizations such as ESL or ESWC promise their players money that they simply don't have, money that won't be available to them in the near future either (but this could be due to mistakes that have been made years ago and continue to be a problem now, once you get into this "spiral" of being unable to pay, it just gets worse and worse - they require a massive influx of sponsor money to settle their debts, so that then their future income can go towards future projects, right now all their income goes towards paying debts - it's stagnating if not declining). I think we can both agree that their business models are to blame, someone with basic understanding of economics wouldn't run a tournament knowing that the expenditure far exceeds the potential income. Tournaments will eventually have to cut their prize money. ESL is still promising players thousands of dollars every event when it's quite obvious that they simply don't have the money, I say this based on the fact that some players are waiting almost 2 years for their promised prize money. Yes they will pay eventually, but they are to blame for their bad business model.
Yes they pay the IEM players, but in return they cut everything in the national tournaments, EPS players don't get paid, simply because these tournaments don't create as much revenue and/or public attention.
IEM will always have a higher priority than national tournaments, it makes sense from a business stanpoint, but the question is what can players do that this changes? And I'm not sure they can do anything. I think ESL will go bankrupt in the near future, they play around with money they simply don't have and it's quite obvious.
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A players union could hire a union lawyer. That way when one player is out like $500, he can still have the use of a lawyer, and it won't cost him more than what he's (hopefully) getting paid because the cost would be spread throughout the entire union via union dues. Now there would be problems with a players union, but it could be a good idea. Especially if the union members run it, somewhat like the NFL players union. One problem I could see though is players not joining the union and therefore not being invited to the highest level events or whatever, but like I said, could be a good idea if it works out.
To the OP, that sucks man, bummer. Hope you get your money soon. I know what you mean by it not being a lot of money but it still being frustrating as hell. When it's your money it doesn't matter that it isn't millions, you want it and you deserve it. Better luck in the future.
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id say tournament organizations have to be careful, prominent teams will have no problems boycotting events and not sending their star players to the event. for example, a collaborative group of cs teams (eg, navi, sk, etc) boycotted eswc this year because of a certain policy that was implemented. it was eventually changed and teams went to the event.
more importantly in the case of sc2, it wont hurt a team to miss an event or a series of events run by a certain tournament organization, primarily because of the buttload of events that are popping up everywhere. as spectators we are pretty spoiled with all the events on a monthly/weekly basis, but for teams it can be pretty grueling. so a team might lose potential money/exposure by not going to an event, but on the other hand, they save money and they'll have no problem finding a different event to attend
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Wow, thank you for informing us what is happening. This is very disappointing and I hope that tournament sponsors will look at this thread and notice what they are doing wrong.
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EPT
