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How about that: both sides add a little more professionalism?
Tournaments PoV:
1.) Ensure your rules contain easy to read notes about how the payout process works (f.e. that it may take up to 3 months).
2.) When players are "in the money" make sure you have all the needed info of those players or contact their TEAM MANAGER and tell them that they still need to hand in that information.
3.) When you start to pay out inform the players - tell them and/or their TEAM MANAGER that they should receive their money within X days, and if not, leave them some contacts they can turn to. Shit happens sometimes.
4.) If for whatever reason the process of paying out is delayed inform the players and/or their TEAM MANAGER about that. Shit happens sometimes.
5.) If you're not willing to do this little things: GET THE FUCK OUT OF THIS BUSINESS!
Players PoV:
1.) Read the fucking manual! Seriously, pay more attention to tournament rules. Or, IMO the better way, have your TEAM MANAGER do that, 'cause that's part of his job (or at least should be IMO).
2.) Be patient and don't expect every tournament to pay your prize money until the next week. Some might have more red tape attached to it, some less.
3.) Tournament's still not paying your prize money? Go talk to your TEAM MANAGER and let him deal with the tournament organizers. Your team can then decide if it's worth or not to bring that matter to court.
4.) If you're not satisfied with how fast you get your money from tournament X, just don't attend it. If other pro's think the same, those tournaments will vanish.
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I mean, seriously, those are some very easy & basic rules to go by and it would ease the life of everyone involved. Sure it's a little bit more work (especially for tournament organizers), but I bet my ass it's worth it.
I guess one could also say that some TEAM MANAGERS should start to take their jobs fucking serious. Or get an assistant (Tournament Coordinator or whatever the fuck) if you're loaded with work.
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John i understand where your coming from and what your point of view is, however it is NO EXCUSE for having to wait up to even 3 months for prizes. You run a business ... great then you should know what budgeting is. If a tournament ( especially ones that are aware of tardiness from certain sponsors ) know they will be getting sponsorship money late then they should have theprize money as part of their overall production budget, especially larger lan tournaments.
There's no excuse for them not to, the tournament organizers are the ones in contract with the sponsorships for the money ... not the players, so even if the tournament pays out of pocket to the players and the sponsors bail, at least the tournament themselves can get the money eventually via legal measures.
It's common sense and should be common practice, especially for the high profile tournaments. You shouldn't be advertising X amount of dollars for a prize when in reality your just praying the sponsors to come through with it. It's just shitty business practice, you seem to think it's the norm and in some situations it is, but in the end it doesn't have to be, it's just laziness.
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On November 01 2011 06:23 Liquid`Tyler wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:00 ThisGS wrote:
So many people in this thread think ESL doesnt pay.
Thats WRONG.
They always pay, just really, really slow.
As Carmac posted, its a bit better @ IEM events than national events (eps) / random other cups That is a really bad way to put it. Time changes the value of money. It's not the same thing come late. It's something different. Withholding payment for so long is like requiring every prize winner to give ESL a free loan for the amount of money won for the period of time the money is withheld. Loans shouldn't be free. ESL should pay promptly or pay a late fee or pay interest. Otherwise they absolutely are exploiting their players.
Exactly. Time is money. That money could be invested or earning interest for players instead of sitting in the banks of the organizations. And don't forget inflation.
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On November 01 2011 06:16 cubert wrote:
4PL.4players.de didn't pay us 1300€ for 14 won 2v2 tournaments started from decebmer 2010, lied that sent it and ignored later. But there is nothing we can do. Nobody boycotted them (community isn't friendly enough and don't care when it isn't their problems), there aren't organisation like fifa in football and other federations.
4P|Heuermeuer schrieb am Freitag, den 03.06.2011 um 13:34 Uhr:
> Hi,
> The booking staff is responsible for the whole Freenet Group, becuase of
> this, there are sometimes delay elements, we can´t control. Normally it takes
> about 1-4 Weeks.
>
> regards
> Jörg - 4Players Liga
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On November 01 2011 06:17 Krehlmar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 02:39 IdrA wrote:On November 01 2011 02:08 Joshy.IGN wrote:
Note from IGN: We paid out everyone from IPL season 1, and we are aware that certain players from IPL 2 have not yet received their winnings. IPL 2's grand final aired on August 14th, not even 90 days ago. We have everyone's financial information from IPL 2 and the current word is that checks/Paypal transfers should be ready to go within the week.
One thing about IGN Pro League that people may not consider is that we are not just 1 guy with $1000 laying around that we can just dump in someone's account the moment they win a bo5. IGN is a massive organization that we are just one part of, and we have to adhere to all of the federal regulations that are invoked when dealing with paying thousands of dollars to (as far as the law is concerned) international contractors. We have a finance department that must be satisfied with its paperwork before we can give out money. Not only this, but our players were informed that there would be a wait involved when we collected their payment information.
I'm sorry to hear that ClouD, Darkforce, and others have been waiting a long time for a lot of money, but trust me, IGN Pro League has every intent of paying everyone, even down to translators for online qualifiers, what they are owed. =) i have not been paid for ipl season 1 Wow way to own Joshy and IGN with 9 words. Fix this IGN 
Already done.
Not able to read thread --> getting owned by 2 words.
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On November 01 2011 06:32 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:00 ThisGS wrote:
So many people in this thread think ESL doesnt pay.
Thats WRONG.
They always pay, just really, really slow.
As Carmac posted, its a bit better @ IEM events than national events (eps) / random other cups yes this is true. i dont have much doubt about the ESL eventually paying me, but super slow payments are also annoying.
Just wondering, did you sign something where it was written exactly how long the payments would take? Slow payments shouldn't be an issue when you know when they are to be made, right?
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this deserves to be a featured news or article on TL.
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On November 01 2011 06:34 Teiwaz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:17 Krehlmar wrote:On November 01 2011 02:39 IdrA wrote:On November 01 2011 02:08 Joshy.IGN wrote:
Note from IGN: We paid out everyone from IPL season 1, and we are aware that certain players from IPL 2 have not yet received their winnings. IPL 2's grand final aired on August 14th, not even 90 days ago. We have everyone's financial information from IPL 2 and the current word is that checks/Paypal transfers should be ready to go within the week.
One thing about IGN Pro League that people may not consider is that we are not just 1 guy with $1000 laying around that we can just dump in someone's account the moment they win a bo5. IGN is a massive organization that we are just one part of, and we have to adhere to all of the federal regulations that are invoked when dealing with paying thousands of dollars to (as far as the law is concerned) international contractors. We have a finance department that must be satisfied with its paperwork before we can give out money. Not only this, but our players were informed that there would be a wait involved when we collected their payment information.
I'm sorry to hear that ClouD, Darkforce, and others have been waiting a long time for a lot of money, but trust me, IGN Pro League has every intent of paying everyone, even down to translators for online qualifiers, what they are owed. =) i have not been paid for ipl season 1 Wow way to own Joshy and IGN with 9 words. Fix this IGN Already done. Not able to read thread --> getting owned by 2 words.
Wow, really? I thought that was still being looked into on the side of IGN. :o
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On November 01 2011 06:34 Swiv wrote:
this deserves to be a featured news or article on TL.
its not like it was new.
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On November 01 2011 06:24 Lolli92 wrote:
I think this should be a topic for a Day9 Daily or a F*** Slasher episode !!
This should be called out on SotG, Inside the Game, Fuck Slasher, and basically every SC2 media outlet. The organizations responsible need to get the bad publicity they deserve.
IGN: If you think it's not a big deal because it's "not even been 90 days" then that just makes you sound retarded.
Not even paying the winner of IPL season 1 yet?
Any and all respect I had for IPL was just flushed down the toilet.
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Thats fucked up. There's honestly zero excuse to take a year or more to pay someone what is owed, especially with zero interest on top, or even worse as in many cases in this thread not get paid at all. I bet my left nut Carmac's cheque doesn't come a year late, or the sound guy's or any other employees. The players of the tournaments are honestly the most important employees, so to speak, that ESL or any tournament has and so they should be paid in reasonable time as well. No one would watch, and thus they'd make no money, if the known players didn't show up for the promised prize.
It honestly seems like many of these tournaments are even doing this on purpose as a tactic to save some money, the thought being that it becomes too much of a hassle for players to have to beg for their earnings everyday for a year or more and eventually some give up then the company don't have to pay the players anything cause hey they "lost contact" with the player. It is the tournament organizer's responsibility to be making sure the players know when their payments are coming and insuring they get paid, guys like Cloud and Idra etc should not be the ones begging for money owed to them for a year.
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On November 01 2011 06:34 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:32 DarKFoRcE wrote:On November 01 2011 06:00 ThisGS wrote:
So many people in this thread think ESL doesnt pay.
Thats WRONG.
They always pay, just really, really slow.
As Carmac posted, its a bit better @ IEM events than national events (eps) / random other cups yes this is true. i dont have much doubt about the ESL eventually paying me, but super slow payments are also annoying. Just wondering, did you sign something where it was written exactly how long the payments would take? Slow payments shouldn't be an issue when you know when they are to be made, right?
no there are no contracts between the ESL and the players. if i recall correctly it says in the rules that prizemoney is paid out within 180 days after the event has finished. but at least for season 17 (that was summer till november or december last year) they already told us some time ago that it will be paid out later. not that this surprised anyone, as the warcraft players switching over had already told us that we would have to wait at least 1 year for our money.
the most annoying ones, to me at least, are the organizer i have to write tons of emails to, to finally get my money. or the ones that i send tons of emails to without ever getting the money. with epicup.de and the virus invite tourney i have already given up for example, i just still have them in my list out of principle.
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On November 01 2011 06:35 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:34 Teiwaz wrote:On November 01 2011 06:17 Krehlmar wrote:On November 01 2011 02:39 IdrA wrote:On November 01 2011 02:08 Joshy.IGN wrote:
Note from IGN: We paid out everyone from IPL season 1, and we are aware that certain players from IPL 2 have not yet received their winnings. IPL 2's grand final aired on August 14th, not even 90 days ago. We have everyone's financial information from IPL 2 and the current word is that checks/Paypal transfers should be ready to go within the week.
One thing about IGN Pro League that people may not consider is that we are not just 1 guy with $1000 laying around that we can just dump in someone's account the moment they win a bo5. IGN is a massive organization that we are just one part of, and we have to adhere to all of the federal regulations that are invoked when dealing with paying thousands of dollars to (as far as the law is concerned) international contractors. We have a finance department that must be satisfied with its paperwork before we can give out money. Not only this, but our players were informed that there would be a wait involved when we collected their payment information.
I'm sorry to hear that ClouD, Darkforce, and others have been waiting a long time for a lot of money, but trust me, IGN Pro League has every intent of paying everyone, even down to translators for online qualifiers, what they are owed. =) i have not been paid for ipl season 1 Wow way to own Joshy and IGN with 9 words. Fix this IGN Already done. Not able to read thread --> getting owned by 2 words. Wow, really? I thought that was still being looked into on the side of IGN. :o
Looking into it is part of fixing it, don't you think?
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On November 01 2011 06:36 svefnleysi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 06:24 Lolli92 wrote:
I think this should be a topic for a Day9 Daily or a F*** Slasher episode !! This should be called out on SotG, Inside the Game, Fuck Slasher, and basically every SC2 media outlet. The organizations responsible need to get the bad publicity they deserve.IGN: If you think it's not a big deal because it's "not even been 90 days" then that just makes you sound retarded. Not even paying the winner of IPL season 1 yet? Any and all respect I had for IPL was just flushed down the toilet.
Good lord get off the drama train. Joshy said they had closed the books and were looking into a reissue.
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On November 01 2011 06:17 tabbott26 wrote:
Please leave this thread. All you are doing is bashing everyone that is trying to get across a point. You are so one dimensioned that you will not accept anything else that is said to try and clear things up.
Go and learn how business (yes, SC2 tournaments come under businesses, just like the NFL, NHL, Premier League etc...) work, then come back and add something constructive to the thread.
Bashing invalid points. Explaining how the US government drags payment to contractors out does not justify delaying SC2 tournament prize money. With the govt you are dealing with congressionally appropriated budgets and govt red tape. The same red tape does not exist in SC2. Sure there is red tape to some degree in dealing with corporate AP, but not to the extent of the US govt. I don't give a shit how long it takes the government to pay his company. It has no bearing on this discussion. The US govt doesn't sponsor SC2 tournaments. The corporations sponsoring these events are not govt. When you do business with the govt you know the financial issues that come with it. It is a pointless argument and deserves to be bashed.
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ESL have been known to delay payments for an AVERAGE of a year.. that means it can be longer. It's pretty much globally known (if you've been paying attention in ESports prior to SC2) that ESL never pays their players until a year later. It's the same with all their players, not just SC; in WoW and CS, so it's definitely not something that's unheard of. Most people who have been in Esports know this issue exists but it hasn't be pressed on tournament organizers enough to pay up unfortunately.
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im actually really happy that there is finally a bit of an uproar about this, as it has been annoying alot oftentimes, but i wasnt sure whether i should open a thread about it, as i didnt want to be the only one complaining (you can easily be isolated if other players keep their mouth shut). its really good that many pros post here, and i hope some more will do so.
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On November 01 2011 06:23 xerathul wrote:
I think you just showed why eSports is "still in a volatile stage" with this kind of disrespect towards players and short-sightedness. Thankfully not every organizer think like you. Players basically should not pay the price for the fact that event organizers suck at their job.
It's not a matter of thinking like me. I've been in those discussions with sponsors. A lot of them are wary of putting money into eSports, especially years ago when it was a much smaller thing. You either agree to their terms, or you don't get money.
On November 01 2011 06:23 doko100 wrote:
I study economics and marketing and I have never heard of a business that has a combinded monthly expenditure of 30.000 dollar opposed to a calculated monthly income of 5.000 dollars. This business is bound to go bankrupt.
I was just using the numbers as an example. And yes, those types of companies are bound to go bankrupt. Did you see what happened to ESWC the first time around? CPL? WSVG? They all had issues with payouts, angered players, sponsors and didn't get support to continue as organizations. I'm simplifying all of their issues, but the point is the same.
Very few eSports companies have a solid model to build from, and they don't have the consistent revenue streams to allow for the things you all are talking about.
On November 01 2011 06:23 doko100 wrote:
It's really quite simple, if you have the money, host the tournament, if you don't, then don't host the tournament. If you have a "payment after delivery" contract with your sponsor as in "you only get payed once your tournament was held" you are quite obviously doing it wrong, you give your sponsor an easy way out "oh hey look the tournament wasn't succesful, let's just not pay them". It seems to me like you have no idea how economics work or how income stands in relation to expenditure.
If it was as easy as you say, everyone would be doing it.
And like I said before, it's not always "payment after delivery," it's company can only pay X amount of money per month. Unless an organizer is willing to plan, and there are some of those of course, several months or years in advance, getting all the required money is generally not possible, and you get stories like these.
I've been in eSports for a long time, so this is nothing new. I've been in negotiations, I've seen what sponsors require and I see that they don't have the funds to make everything instantly work. Everyone has to be flexible until eSports becomes a bit more consistent and reliable. Unfortunately, that flex at this point falls on the organizers and players that are stuck waiting.
On November 01 2011 06:23 doko100 wrote:
MLG is doing it right, I don't know their business model, but I could imagine that it looks something like this.
MLG is able to do it because one, their events are planned far in advance, and they have tons of venture capital; they got $10 million in Q1 of this year. It has nothing to do with their business model. They are over $50 million in venture capital to date.
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I have a question for the progamers out there (even those who only make a little here or there):
I am a law student. It is clear to me that you have legal recourse to secure your prize money. However it's not worth hiring a lawyer because we charge more than it's worth for say... a 100 dollar prize. I get that.
However, would there be an interest in a lawyer who does these things for you guys? Something like a "players union"? I'm just musing to myself, but I think an organization that would do this would really help you guys out. I'm not suggesting something like a Kespa "we run the sport" type organization, but literally... a players union. I think it'd help a lot if organizers knew they'd have a lawyer up their ass if they didn't pay promptly (not to mention the fact you could sue for interest for delayed payments, get default judgments, and hold organizers responsible for promises). At first it might be a lot of litigation for not a lot of return, but within a short time you'd set a precedent that you expect to be paid and paid on time.
I know I'm just thinking out loud, but what do you guys think? I'd be interested in talking about this, I love contract law and I love what you guys do.
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Well it can only get better than this and the bad organisations will fade out.(like.. virus gaming )
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EPT
