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On November 01 2011 05:56 bigjenk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:50 divito wrote:On November 01 2011 05:37 HappyChris wrote:
Im sure it also pains the pro players that cant pay there rent becuase they still waiting for price winning after 6 months. eSports is still in a volatile stage. If they are unprepared for the circumstances surrounding their chosen career, then that's their problem. We are an incredibly spoiled generation. On November 01 2011 05:37 HappyChris wrote:
Again why should the players care whatever the reason are for not getting payments in a reasonable timescale? If you are aware of the reason, it's not unreasonable. Basically what you're saying is that, unless a company (that in this case we'll say, takes a portion of their monthly marketing budget for use in a tournament), somehow finds in their coffers enough to pay out their full desired contribution at one time, they should not bother contributing to eSports? What other profession would you wonder if you will get paid within 6 months so you can make rent? Oh right none. If they promise money they can not deliver or at the best deliver 6 months to a year later then yes they should gtfo of esports. I wouldn't open a business if I had no means to pay the employees for 6 months while telling them they would be paid immediately. To call that spoiled is idiotic, the only thing that is, is highly irresponsible by the tournaments.
So the tournament is the business and the players are the employees that work for the business (tournament organizers)? Piss poor example IMO.
I agree with you that it should never taken more than 3 months but the #1 priority of tournament organizers shouldn't be to pay out their prize as soon as possible. Tournaments aren't responsible for helping players make rent, that responsibility falls on the teams that contract the players. If players relied purely on tournaments, this career path would be way too volatile. Tournament prize money should be considered as a bonus, not seem as a business paying their employees.
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On November 01 2011 05:10 D.Devil wrote:
hi :o
You know very well that I didn't handle the payments at hoorai and it wasn't my responsibility to take care of that. Also we always treated -and paiid- you well. But anyway, that's many years ago (and certainly hoorai was far from perfect).. tbh I don't even remember if you're right, but it may very well be. In any case: I'm sorry, dude. I just don't see why you even bring this up now as I don't feel like it's related to my post. (and I believe calling me a piece of shit isn't the way to go.)
My point still stands: By creating blacklists and boycotting events, you only make things worse. This isn't the solution to this problem. Of course, something needs to be done about it, but I don't like that the majority of people here believes that you achieve that by punishing ESL, ESWC and others.
Haha yeah, forcing the companies responsible to actually do what they promise to do is clearly the wrong way to go. Also, if someone scammed me for 600 euros i would also call that someone a piece of shit!
Delaying payment is fine to an extent imo, but then atleast make it clear to the players that this will be the case. "Hi you wanna play in out tourney?" sure, whats the price money?" "10k, but you wont get it for around 3 months, is that ok?" Sure, fine."
Is that so hard? Or if there is unexpected delays make sure you inform everyone affected right away, its only polite tbh.
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I wonder how this is in other sports. do tournament organizers in other sports also have a grace of 90 days or even more to pay the promised prize money? If not, I don't see why starcraft 2 should be different.
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On November 01 2011 05:32 Klondikebar wrote:
*sigh* At the risk of going WAY off topic, I'm going to defend my assertion about ponzi schemes.
If you are aware that it is a ponzi scheme you can still make a lot of money. It's just a gamble to not be the last wave of investors. If you're not the last wave, you'll have guaranteed returns on your investment. Playing the ponzi game isn't any worse than playing the nickle slots.
It's only bad when you don't tell anyone you're running a ponzi scheme. But that lie is the fault of the schemer, not the ponzi scheme itself.
Even if Starcraft 2 tournaments are all ponzi schemes that can still be ok. It seems what the players want is to be kept informed so they can decide for themselves whether or not to attend a tournament and not feel tricked into attending.
I wasn't aware there was such a thing as ponzi scheme where the people running it let the participants know it was a ponzi scheme. I have only ever heard of situations where people invest in some fund which is really a front for the ponzi scheme. There are tell tale signs it is a ponzi scheme (we promise X% return etc), but I have never heard of a ponzi scheme telling its investors it is a ponzi scheme. And for the record I don't think there are tournaments run like I ponzi scheme...I hope.
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And this here, folks, is the reason MLG has destroyed every league to date that tried to compete.
WSVG, etc came out of no where and died so fast because they could not payout their prize money in a reasonable time-frame. I do understand how difficult it is to get this prize money out there, simply because MLG had this difficulty at one point (earliest stages) 7 yrs ago as well.
GL to all of you and I hope this changes things for the leagues currently operating.
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On November 01 2011 05:50 divito wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:37 HappyChris wrote:
Im sure it also pains the pro players that cant pay there rent becuase they still waiting for price winning after 6 months. eSports is still in a volatile stage. If they are unprepared for the circumstances surrounding their chosen career, then that's their problem. We are an incredibly spoiled generation. Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:37 HappyChris wrote:
Again why should the players care whatever the reason are for not getting payments in a reasonable timescale? If you are aware of the reason, it's not unreasonable. Basically what you're saying is that, unless a company (that in this case we'll say, takes a portion of their monthly marketing budget for use in a tournament), somehow finds in their coffers enough to pay out their full desired contribution at one time, they should not bother contributing to eSports?
Ahh, So you saying the owners of tournament organisations dont get payed either? I call that complet bullshit. Im 100% sure the guys in charge of the different tournament is getting payed for there time and they do that of the back of the pro players that works hard each day but can barely make a living.
Fecking discusting.
"unprepared for the circumstances surrounding their chosen career, then that's their problem"
What a bloddy horrible sentence. You blame the players for not getting payed or getting very l8t payment?
Do you work at wall street?
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On November 01 2011 06:00 ThisGS wrote:
So many people in this thread think ESL doesnt pay.
Thats WRONG.
They always pay, just really, really slow.
As Carmac posted, its a bit better @ IEM events than national events (eps) / random other cups
thats still, really, really unacceptable
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As an event organiser myself (not yet in StarCraft 2 - but soon!), it's disheartening every time I read about tournaments not paying out. It happens all too often in this glorious world of gaming, even once would be too much!
Any teams / players who have won anything at my events have received their money within 30 days of the event cancelling, and with our most recent event, all money was paid on the same day the event finished.
I understand that a lot of tournaments are heavily reliant on sponsorship money, but this is where the organisers must use their brains and state that the sponsors must pay within a specified timeframe in any official documentation they have to secure the deal with whichever company is sponsoring money.
If you can't keep a promise, then don't make one. Simples.
- Sean.
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On November 01 2011 02:39 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 02:08 Joshy.IGN wrote:
Note from IGN: We paid out everyone from IPL season 1, and we are aware that certain players from IPL 2 have not yet received their winnings. IPL 2's grand final aired on August 14th, not even 90 days ago. We have everyone's financial information from IPL 2 and the current word is that checks/Paypal transfers should be ready to go within the week.
One thing about IGN Pro League that people may not consider is that we are not just 1 guy with $1000 laying around that we can just dump in someone's account the moment they win a bo5. IGN is a massive organization that we are just one part of, and we have to adhere to all of the federal regulations that are invoked when dealing with paying thousands of dollars to (as far as the law is concerned) international contractors. We have a finance department that must be satisfied with its paperwork before we can give out money. Not only this, but our players were informed that there would be a wait involved when we collected their payment information.
I'm sorry to hear that ClouD, Darkforce, and others have been waiting a long time for a lot of money, but trust me, IGN Pro League has every intent of paying everyone, even down to translators for online qualifiers, what they are owed. =) i have not been paid for ipl season 1
Wait, now that I think about it, didn't IdrA just plain simply win that tournament?
And he didn't get paid? Well, that's troubling 
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On November 01 2011 05:56 bigjenk wrote:
What other profession would you wonder if you will get paid within 6 months so you can make rent? Oh right none.
Then why are they entering tournaments if they know this?
On November 01 2011 05:56 bigjenk wrote:
If they promise money they can not deliver or at the best deliver 6 months to a year later then yes they should gtfo of esports. I wouldn't open a business if I had no means to pay the employees for 6 months while telling them they would be paid immediately. To call that spoiled is idiotic, the only thing that is, is highly irresponsible by the tournaments.
What tournaments have told the players they would be paid immediately? Do you have documentation of this?
And do you know how companies operate? Very few companies have the money lying around to pay lump sums to eSports tournaments of all the places they could put their money.
Companies have monthly expenses that have to be accounted for. They may or may not have many divisions in their company that get parts of their revenue to keep functioning. This revenue goes towards salaries, supplies, and a host of other things.
Companies then have marketing budgets that they can use for television, web ads, print ads, etc... Let's say company X has a monthly marketing budget that they get of $10,000 (which is a pretty damn big company). They are approached by an eSports organizer looking for a sponsor for their tournament in two months.
Now, company X has already allocated 50% of their monthly budget for the next four months to other areas; but they would like to put up $20,000 total as a tournament sponsor. However, given that they only have $5,000 to offer for the next four months, and the tournament will be over by then, there will still be $10,000 left to be paid.
Some tournaments are planned very far in advance, which allows quicker payouts because they are getting their money well in advance of the tournament. Others don't have that luxury, or money has to go elsewhere. Under basic logistics, there are going to be several events that don't have the necessary capital on time to pay. Their initial costs have to go to venue and a bunch of other things before it ever reaches the players.
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On November 01 2011 06:03 PlayhemTV wrote:This is why I'm proud we at Playhem pay our winners in a quick, efficient manner
yo everyone should recognize good tournies that pay quickly like treehugger said
i've been enjoying the Playhem events that have been happening lately and there have been a lot.
I hope you guys can get some bigger events.
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Up to date I have received 100% of the prize money I won!
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On November 01 2011 05:38 D.Devil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:23 Naniwa wrote:On November 01 2011 05:10 D.Devil wrote:On November 01 2011 04:41 Naniwa wrote:On November 01 2011 01:21 D.Devil wrote:
This isn't a recent problem but something that haunts esports since its early days. The CPL didn't ever pay some teams the prize money for events in 2002 and 2003 and still continued to live on for quite a while.
Nonetheless, even it might seem counter-intuitive at first, blacklists and publicly calling out organizations won't help anyone. Hosting a big event requires a lot of work, and the prize money is a rather small (yet important) aspect overall. So don't expect anyone to be there to just "replace" today's organizers if they are forced to quit. Even if they're at fault, there's no point in boycotting as it'll only make everyone wait longer or not receive any money at all. So it's not really coincidence that most teams prefer to be quiet as long as the organizers play fair (which the CPL ultimately didn't, so it was boycotted and forced to quit after all). funny that you are talking since Your wc3 team Hoorai scammed me off 600 euros you piece of...... hi :o You know very well that I didn't handle the payments at hoorai and it wasn't my responsibility to take care of that. Also we always treated -and paiid- you well. But anyway, that's many years ago (and certainly hoorai was far from perfect).. tbh I don't even remember if you're right, but it may very well be. In any case: I'm sorry, dude. I just don't see why you even bring this up now as I don't feel like it's related to my post. (and I believe calling me a piece of shit isn't the way to go.) My point still stands: By creating blacklists and boycotting events, you only make things worse. This isn't the solution to this problem. Of course, something needs to be done about it, but I don't like that the majority of people here believes that you achieve that by punishing ESL, ESWC and others. you think i would have some fake grudge against you? for fck sake get real, you were co owner of the team so stop tossing away responsibility pay up or gtfo Sorry, I didn't mean it like that - it came across wrong. It's just because I don't remember if it's due to the contract modification we agreed upon or your last salaries... but it doesn't really matter, I believe you, really. Like I said: sorry. I hope you agree with me that we at least paid most of your money. It's not like we just "scammed" you. Anyway, I'm honestly glad to see you're doing well in SC2. Best of luck, man.
THIS GUY IS KILLING ESPORTS!
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Cloud has all the right to make this thread. He and all the other progamers need to know when they will be paid. I don`t see a problem if a tournament organisation says beforehand that it could take some weeks or even months until the prizemoney will be paid out. If both parties (player + organisation) agree on the terms it`s all good. Things that aren`t good are progamers running after their money, being left alone with no information and a feeling they are not being cared about.
This thread is full of advise, but in my eyes (for now) it is enough to speak loud about the problem. Tournament organisations that are well known for not paying/paying late/just paying after multiple requests will see less and less progamers taking part in their tournaments, which will lead to problematic talks with their sponsors, which will most likely lead to less money for the next tournament, which will only hasten the downfall.
Best of luck to all the ClouDs and DarKForces out there - I hope you will get what was promised to you.
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This is shocking to me.
It saddens me to hear how unprofessional so many tournament organizers are.
I thought more of e-sports :O
Ive only won one tournament and I was paid the $125 that night. I had no idea this type of thing took place!
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The general problem is that most organizations hold their tournaments BEFORE they actually have the money, when they actually should hold the tournaments AFTER their sponsors have paid them all the money.
If you don't have the money, don't hold the tournament. FUCKING PROBLEM SOLVED. WELCOME
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On November 01 2011 05:49 ayaz2810 wrote:
I'm surprised that there's not a lot of legally binding paperwork involved that helps to guarantee payment. That would seem like a pretty damn good idea.
Even if there were they would be hard to enforce given the international nature of SC2. Even if the country you live in has a relationship with the country the tournament is hosted in, you would likely have to go to court in the tournaments country. Very few tournaments have prize pools worth that legal cost. I think the only way to solve this is a Kespa-like organization...but hopefully not TOO Kespa-like.
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On November 01 2011 05:38 D.Devil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:23 Naniwa wrote:On November 01 2011 05:10 D.Devil wrote:On November 01 2011 04:41 Naniwa wrote:On November 01 2011 01:21 D.Devil wrote:
This isn't a recent problem but something that haunts esports since its early days. The CPL didn't ever pay some teams the prize money for events in 2002 and 2003 and still continued to live on for quite a while.
Nonetheless, even it might seem counter-intuitive at first, blacklists and publicly calling out organizations won't help anyone. Hosting a big event requires a lot of work, and the prize money is a rather small (yet important) aspect overall. So don't expect anyone to be there to just "replace" today's organizers if they are forced to quit. Even if they're at fault, there's no point in boycotting as it'll only make everyone wait longer or not receive any money at all. So it's not really coincidence that most teams prefer to be quiet as long as the organizers play fair (which the CPL ultimately didn't, so it was boycotted and forced to quit after all). funny that you are talking since Your wc3 team Hoorai scammed me off 600 euros you piece of...... hi :o You know very well that I didn't handle the payments at hoorai and it wasn't my responsibility to take care of that. Also we always treated -and paiid- you well. But anyway, that's many years ago (and certainly hoorai was far from perfect).. tbh I don't even remember if you're right, but it may very well be. In any case: I'm sorry, dude. I just don't see why you even bring this up now as I don't feel like it's related to my post. (and I believe calling me a piece of shit isn't the way to go.) My point still stands: By creating blacklists and boycotting events, you only make things worse. This isn't the solution to this problem. Of course, something needs to be done about it, but I don't like that the majority of people here believes that you achieve that by punishing ESL, ESWC and others. you think i would have some fake grudge against you? for fck sake get real, you were co owner of the team so stop tossing away responsibility pay up or gtfo Sorry, I didn't mean it like that - it came across wrong. It's just because I don't remember if it's due to the contract modification we agreed upon or your last salaries... but it doesn't really matter, I believe you, really. Like I said: sorry. I hope you agree with me that we at least paid most of your money. It's not like we just "scammed" you. Anyway, I'm honestly glad to see you're doing well in SC2. Best of luck, man.
I love how you responded to Naniwa. I believe you know absolutely that you failed to pay Naniwa 600 euros. However, you don't want the community to know it.
So, you've repeatedly stated that you 'can't remember,' whether he's right. And in this post you even went so far as to give an excuse which is plausible on its face (that there was a contract modifaction).
At the same time, you realize that Naniwa will be able to prove you wrong if he leans on you. So, you blandly agree with him in hopes that he's mollified. That way, the community doesn't believe you're a scumbag, and Naniwa doesn't prove it.
Pretty pitiful. How audacious do you have to be to talk about players receiving prize money--in fact suggesting that when they don't it's not a big deal, because they get publicity and the spectators get a show--when you're responsible for stiffing Naniwa yourself!
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On November 01 2011 06:08 HappyChris wrote:
Ahh, So you saying the owners of tournament organisations dont get payed either? I call that complet bullshit. Im 100% sure the guys in charge of the different tournament is getting payed for there time and they do that of the back of the pro players that works hard each day but can barely make a living.
I'm not saying they don't get paid. They get a portion of what they were promised by sponsors per month. Their initial costs are paid first, followed by the players.
Think of it this way, if you have a $20,000 bill (player payouts), a $10,000 bill (venue expenses etc) but you're only making $5,000 a month (combined sponsor income), how does one pay all of their expenses immediately?
On November 01 2011 06:08 HappyChris wrote:
What a bloddy horrible sentence. You blame the players for not getting payed or getting very l8t payment?
I'm not blaming the players for the "late" payment. This situation has existed for years in eSports, and I understand it's a new concept for those at TL. If players are expecting to make a living, they need to be assured of things. If they know that tournaments will not pay with in a few months, they need to make other arrangements.
If I'm late on rent or mortgage payment, I can't go to my landlord or bank and say, sorry, I haven't gotten paid yet. They'll tell you too bad. Like I said, spoiled generation.
On November 01 2011 06:08 HappyChris wrote:
Do you work at wall street?
Heh, no.
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EPT
