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On November 01 2011 05:38 D.Devil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:23 Naniwa wrote:On November 01 2011 05:10 D.Devil wrote:On November 01 2011 04:41 Naniwa wrote:On November 01 2011 01:21 D.Devil wrote:
This isn't a recent problem but something that haunts esports since its early days. The CPL didn't ever pay some teams the prize money for events in 2002 and 2003 and still continued to live on for quite a while.
Nonetheless, even it might seem counter-intuitive at first, blacklists and publicly calling out organizations won't help anyone. Hosting a big event requires a lot of work, and the prize money is a rather small (yet important) aspect overall. So don't expect anyone to be there to just "replace" today's organizers if they are forced to quit. Even if they're at fault, there's no point in boycotting as it'll only make everyone wait longer or not receive any money at all. So it's not really coincidence that most teams prefer to be quiet as long as the organizers play fair (which the CPL ultimately didn't, so it was boycotted and forced to quit after all). funny that you are talking since Your wc3 team Hoorai scammed me off 600 euros you piece of...... hi :o You know very well that I didn't handle the payments at hoorai and it wasn't my responsibility to take care of that. Also we always treated -and paiid- you well. But anyway, that's many years ago (and certainly hoorai was far from perfect).. tbh I don't even remember if you're right, but it may very well be. In any case: I'm sorry, dude. I just don't see why you even bring this up now as I don't feel like it's related to my post. (and I believe calling me a piece of shit isn't the way to go.) My point still stands: By creating blacklists and boycotting events, you only make things worse. This isn't the solution to this problem. Of course, something needs to be done about it, but I don't like that the majority of people here believes that you achieve that by punishing ESL, ESWC and others. you think i would have some fake grudge against you? for fck sake get real, you were co owner of the team so stop tossing away responsibility pay up or gtfo Sorry, I didn't mean it like that - it came across wrong. It's just because I don't remember if it's due to the contract modification we agreed upon or your last salaries... but it doesn't really matter, I believe you, really. Like I said: sorry. I hope you agree with me that we at least paid most of your money. It's not like we just "scammed" you. Anyway, I'm honestly glad to see you're doing well in SC2. Best of luck, man.
Good argument,
"We gave you *most* of the money we said we would"
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As far as I can tell this is a basic explain of how E-sports should work.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CJCGY.png)
And the delivery of this seems to be failing.
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On November 01 2011 05:38 D.Devil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:23 Naniwa wrote:On November 01 2011 05:10 D.Devil wrote:On November 01 2011 04:41 Naniwa wrote:On November 01 2011 01:21 D.Devil wrote:
This isn't a recent problem but something that haunts esports since its early days. The CPL didn't ever pay some teams the prize money for events in 2002 and 2003 and still continued to live on for quite a while.
Nonetheless, even it might seem counter-intuitive at first, blacklists and publicly calling out organizations won't help anyone. Hosting a big event requires a lot of work, and the prize money is a rather small (yet important) aspect overall. So don't expect anyone to be there to just "replace" today's organizers if they are forced to quit. Even if they're at fault, there's no point in boycotting as it'll only make everyone wait longer or not receive any money at all. So it's not really coincidence that most teams prefer to be quiet as long as the organizers play fair (which the CPL ultimately didn't, so it was boycotted and forced to quit after all). funny that you are talking since Your wc3 team Hoorai scammed me off 600 euros you piece of...... hi :o You know very well that I didn't handle the payments at hoorai and it wasn't my responsibility to take care of that. Also we always treated -and paiid- you well. But anyway, that's many years ago (and certainly hoorai was far from perfect).. tbh I don't even remember if you're right, but it may very well be. In any case: I'm sorry, dude. I just don't see why you even bring this up now as I don't feel like it's related to my post. (and I believe calling me a piece of shit isn't the way to go.) My point still stands: By creating blacklists and boycotting events, you only make things worse. This isn't the solution to this problem. Of course, something needs to be done about it, but I don't like that the majority of people here believes that you achieve that by punishing ESL, ESWC and others. you think i would have some fake grudge against you? for fck sake get real, you were co owner of the team so stop tossing away responsibility pay up or gtfo Sorry, I didn't mean it like that - it came across wrong. It's just because I don't remember if it's due to the contract modification we agreed upon or your last salaries... but it doesn't really matter, I believe you, really. Like I said: sorry. I hope you agree with me that we at least paid most of your money. It's not like we just "scammed" you. Anyway, I'm honestly glad to see you're doing well in SC2. Best of luck, man.
Translation - cast smokescreen!
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On November 01 2011 05:38 D.Devil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:23 Naniwa wrote:On November 01 2011 05:10 D.Devil wrote:On November 01 2011 04:41 Naniwa wrote:On November 01 2011 01:21 D.Devil wrote:
This isn't a recent problem but something that haunts esports since its early days. The CPL didn't ever pay some teams the prize money for events in 2002 and 2003 and still continued to live on for quite a while.
Nonetheless, even it might seem counter-intuitive at first, blacklists and publicly calling out organizations won't help anyone. Hosting a big event requires a lot of work, and the prize money is a rather small (yet important) aspect overall. So don't expect anyone to be there to just "replace" today's organizers if they are forced to quit. Even if they're at fault, there's no point in boycotting as it'll only make everyone wait longer or not receive any money at all. So it's not really coincidence that most teams prefer to be quiet as long as the organizers play fair (which the CPL ultimately didn't, so it was boycotted and forced to quit after all). funny that you are talking since Your wc3 team Hoorai scammed me off 600 euros you piece of...... hi :o You know very well that I didn't handle the payments at hoorai and it wasn't my responsibility to take care of that. Also we always treated -and paiid- you well. But anyway, that's many years ago (and certainly hoorai was far from perfect).. tbh I don't even remember if you're right, but it may very well be. In any case: I'm sorry, dude. I just don't see why you even bring this up now as I don't feel like it's related to my post. (and I believe calling me a piece of shit isn't the way to go.) My point still stands: By creating blacklists and boycotting events, you only make things worse. This isn't the solution to this problem. Of course, something needs to be done about it, but I don't like that the majority of people here believes that you achieve that by punishing ESL, ESWC and others. you think i would have some fake grudge against you? for fck sake get real, you were co owner of the team so stop tossing away responsibility pay up or gtfo Sorry, I didn't mean it like that - it came across wrong. It's just because I don't remember if it's due to the contract modification we agreed upon or your last salaries... but it doesn't really matter, I believe you, really. Like I said: sorry. I hope you agree with me that we at least paid most of your money. It's not like we just "scammed" you. Anyway, I'm honestly glad to see you're doing well in SC2. Best of luck, man.
LOl you think he should be happy that u didn't pay him in full? LOL are u dense? I cannot believe u were co-owner of a team and have the audacity to think and say things like this. You didn't pay him in full then act like u didn't scam him? LOLOL
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On November 01 2011 05:34 chaPeL wrote:
so you complain for waiting a year for eps money???
lol, we received eps prizemoney exactly 2 years and 3 months after end of the season :D
also the intel cpu's my team won in an esl tourney were sent nearly 1 year later, when they were worth like $80 and not the $360 they were worth at the time of the tourney... i heard so many lies from admins that money was sent and why they didn't sent money already, etc. .... so annoying.
well, it's esport. you can't expect professionalism in this ^^
sad.... things like these need to be documented... rotten egg need to be throw away... dont keep it and make everyone stinky
i dunno, imo maybe we need somebody with big heart to help sc2 players...
it's about time to do independent tourney rating mini-site like CSN suggested...
put extra admin/owner info (like email, phone number) for players only so that they can negotiate their issue directly
why hide things if u're doing it right?
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On November 01 2011 05:10 D.Devil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 04:41 Naniwa wrote:On November 01 2011 01:21 D.Devil wrote:
This isn't a recent problem but something that haunts esports since its early days. The CPL didn't ever pay some teams the prize money for events in 2002 and 2003 and still continued to live on for quite a while.
Nonetheless, even it might seem counter-intuitive at first, blacklists and publicly calling out organizations won't help anyone. Hosting a big event requires a lot of work, and the prize money is a rather small (yet important) aspect overall. So don't expect anyone to be there to just "replace" today's organizers if they are forced to quit. Even if they're at fault, there's no point in boycotting as it'll only make everyone wait longer or not receive any money at all. So it's not really coincidence that most teams prefer to be quiet as long as the organizers play fair (which the CPL ultimately didn't, so it was boycotted and forced to quit after all). funny that you are talking since Your wc3 team Hoorai scammed me off 600 euros you piece of...... hi :o You know very well that I didn't handle the payments at hoorai and it wasn't my responsibility to take care of that. Also we always treated -and paiid- you well. But anyway, that's many years ago (and certainly hoorai was far from perfect).. tbh I don't even remember if you're right, but it may very well be. In any case: I'm sorry, dude. I just don't see why you even bring this up now as I don't feel like it's related to my post. (and I believe calling me a piece of shit isn't the way to go.) My point still stands: By creating blacklists and boycotting events, you only make things worse. This isn't the solution to this problem. Of course, something needs to be done about it, but I don't like that the majority of people here believes that you achieve that by punishing ESL, ESWC and others.
So you defending your position of tournaments screwing the people they make the money off of not being called out is because no one else will do it? Are you an investment banker by chance?
That is so much horseshit. There have been community tournaments set up and have run smoothly and paid. And shit organizations getting shut down is great for the community so the ones that are legit become the huge tournaments. Good job defending the scumbag position though.
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This is really embarassing for tournament hosters. Thanks ClouD for this thread, and i encourage to other pro players to continue posting what money is missing.
This behaviour of tournament admins is really killing esports. Shame on you.
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what if players had agents, or if respective organizations had an overall agent who pursued these sorts of matters. Im sure most big gaming organizations do have some sort of agent that pursues these matters, but what about solo players who arent with big organizations ;o.
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On November 01 2011 05:32 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:21 fyndor wrote:On November 01 2011 04:34 Klondikebar wrote:
False. Promising money you don't yet have is how
1. Credit cards
2. Loans
3. Standard payroll
4. The US Fed (and every other central bank I believe)
works.
It's also worth noting that many export driven economies are currently healthy BECAUSE of tremendous government debt in import heavy economies (i.e. China owns a ton of US debt and is wealthier for it).
The failing European economies are defaulting because their creditors no longer believe they can pay back their debt, not just because they have debt.
And a ponzie scheme is when you promise money that you're going to get by promising money that you don't have. There's also nothing inherently wrong with a ponzie scheme. They're illegal in the US though because they tend to be parts of scams. Yes this is how CCs, loans, and the govt work. The thing is we aren't talking about credit cards, loans, or governments are we? Someone else mention how long it takes for them to get paid for their govt contract work. I don't care. You are comparing apples to oranges. And yes, most economies around the world are failing right now. I personally think sponsors should pay money up front, but maybe it is not possible to find such sponsors. It's acceptable if a tournament has to wait out their 30 day payment cycle. Tournaments should be doing everything they need to prepare the payment just short of actually paying it during the period where they are waiting for sponsor reimbursement. Once they get the money there shouldn't be more than a weeks time frame to have the payment clear in their bank and to transfer the money to the player. If as tournament organizer you pick sponsors that don't pay out for months at at time, I don't blame the sponsor, I blame the tournament for not establishing reasonable time frames through contracts. If the sponsors pay out in a timely manner, but the tournament sits on the winnings in their bank accounts collecting on the interest, again it's the tournament to blame. "There's also nothing inherently wrong with a ponzie scheme." LOL. There is a lot wrong with ponzi schemes. Namely, the last people to invest/cash in lose everything even though they were promised the otherwise. I only mentioned ponzi schemes, because it is possible some of these tournaments are paying out past tournaments with current earnings and the winners of the last tournament will be left holding the bag. Hopefully none are run like this though. *sigh* At the risk of going WAY off topic, I'm going to defend my assertion about ponzi schemes. If you are aware that it is a ponzi scheme you can still make a lot of money. It's just a gamble to not be the last wave of investors. If you're not the last wave, you'll have guaranteed returns on your investment. Playing the ponzi game isn't any worse than playing the nickle slots. It's only bad when you don't tell anyone you're running a ponzi scheme. But that lie is the fault of the schemer, not the ponzi scheme itself. Even if Starcraft 2 tournaments are all ponzi schemes that can still be ok. It seems what the players want is to be kept informed so they can decide for themselves whether or not to attend a tournament and not feel tricked into attending.
Um no. If SC2 Tournaments are ponzi schemes that would not be ok. Legal authorities would get involved.
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On November 01 2011 05:21 G5 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 02:43 IdrA wrote:On November 01 2011 02:41 OGKruemmel wrote:On November 01 2011 02:39 IdrA wrote:On November 01 2011 02:08 Joshy.IGN wrote:
Note from IGN: We paid out everyone from IPL season 1, and we are aware that certain players from IPL 2 have not yet received their winnings. IPL 2's grand final aired on August 14th, not even 90 days ago. We have everyone's financial information from IPL 2 and the current word is that checks/Paypal transfers should be ready to go within the week.
One thing about IGN Pro League that people may not consider is that we are not just 1 guy with $1000 laying around that we can just dump in someone's account the moment they win a bo5. IGN is a massive organization that we are just one part of, and we have to adhere to all of the federal regulations that are invoked when dealing with paying thousands of dollars to (as far as the law is concerned) international contractors. We have a finance department that must be satisfied with its paperwork before we can give out money. Not only this, but our players were informed that there would be a wait involved when we collected their payment information.
I'm sorry to hear that ClouD, Darkforce, and others have been waiting a long time for a lot of money, but trust me, IGN Pro League has every intent of paying everyone, even down to translators for online qualifiers, what they are owed. =) i have not been paid for ipl season 1 So, who should we trust now? to be fair ipl is obviously legitimate and i know other players have received their prizes from them, but i have not. hmmm... maybe you should take them to small claims international internet court? That's what I would do.
The problem here is that pursuing legal action against these companies would cost players more than their owed prize money is. These tournament organizers know this and exploit it. I'm sure many of them purposely just try to delay as long as possible hoping that some players will give up or forget about it because putting in a year of effort asking where your money is everyday gets tiresome. If the player gives up after a year, perfect, you just made a few thousand dollar profit just by ignoring some emails/calls and screwing someone over.
Honestly, any tournament not paying for months or years or ever is complete scum, especially if they are clearly big and rich enough to host regular lans (such as ESL) and making money or they wouldn't still be around. If they are just taking that sponsorship money and ad revenue and just putting it in their pockets instead of paying out the promised prizepools that is unforgiveable.
These tournaments wouldn't make any money at all if not for the players bringing in viewers, it's so shameful to treat what are essentially their most important employees like trash.
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I had no idea it was such a widespread problem. Is there anything in the works as far as a governing body who can regulate this stuff? I would imagine that something like that would come into being pretty quickly after the SC2 esports community started picking up steam.
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Nani mad 
Btw nani, Its time you own it up in korea! haven't really heard about you from anything but blizzcon! Go tear up some code A son!
On topic: Why dont we boycott the ones that isnt paying? and leave the rest to be? I cant really find a downside if the tournament management doesnt pay up!!
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On November 01 2011 05:38 D.Devil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:23 Naniwa wrote:On November 01 2011 05:10 D.Devil wrote:On November 01 2011 04:41 Naniwa wrote:On November 01 2011 01:21 D.Devil wrote:
This isn't a recent problem but something that haunts esports since its early days. The CPL didn't ever pay some teams the prize money for events in 2002 and 2003 and still continued to live on for quite a while.
Nonetheless, even it might seem counter-intuitive at first, blacklists and publicly calling out organizations won't help anyone. Hosting a big event requires a lot of work, and the prize money is a rather small (yet important) aspect overall. So don't expect anyone to be there to just "replace" today's organizers if they are forced to quit. Even if they're at fault, there's no point in boycotting as it'll only make everyone wait longer or not receive any money at all. So it's not really coincidence that most teams prefer to be quiet as long as the organizers play fair (which the CPL ultimately didn't, so it was boycotted and forced to quit after all). funny that you are talking since Your wc3 team Hoorai scammed me off 600 euros you piece of...... hi :o You know very well that I didn't handle the payments at hoorai and it wasn't my responsibility to take care of that. Also we always treated -and paiid- you well. But anyway, that's many years ago (and certainly hoorai was far from perfect).. tbh I don't even remember if you're right, but it may very well be. In any case: I'm sorry, dude. I just don't see why you even bring this up now as I don't feel like it's related to my post. (and I believe calling me a piece of shit isn't the way to go.) My point still stands: By creating blacklists and boycotting events, you only make things worse. This isn't the solution to this problem. Of course, something needs to be done about it, but I don't like that the majority of people here believes that you achieve that by punishing ESL, ESWC and others. you think i would have some fake grudge against you? for fck sake get real, you were co owner of the team so stop tossing away responsibility pay up or gtfo Sorry, I didn't mean it like that - it came across wrong. It's just because I don't remember if it's due to the contract modification we agreed upon or your last salaries... but it doesn't really matter, I believe you, really. Like I said: sorry. I hope you agree with me that we at least paid most of your money. It's not like we just "scammed" you. Anyway, I'm honestly glad to see you're doing well in SC2. Best of luck, man.
Not paying someone 600 euros that you owe them then expecting them to be fine with that = scamming.
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I've been involved with esports for a long time and in counter-strike not paying prize money was rampant everywhere.
Now events like ESEA's lan pays out all prize money in cash at the lan itself.
Why do people even play in tournaments if they know they won't get paid right away?
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Lol D.Devil just made me laugh so hard. I'm sure he is curling up in a ball from the sheer stupidity he is feeling right now ;P
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problems like these make me really appreciate the professionalism the tournaments like GSL and MLG have....
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I think the best option is to support legitimate tournaments that pay out prizes on time. Tune in to shoutcraft for Gods sake, all the money is paid out within 24 blood hours!
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On November 01 2011 05:45 NeWeNiyaLord wrote:Nani mad Btw nani, Its time you own it up in korea! haven't really heard about you from anything but blizzcon! Go tear up some code A son! On topic: Why dont we boycott the ones that isnt paying? and leave the rest to be? I cant really find a downside if the tournament management doesnt pay up!!
Better yet boycott the ones and burn them to the ground and pour all your support to the ones that treat the fans and players great. It's disgusting so many of these organizations are basing their scamming on the fact that pro gamers generally have no access to any legal council as they are clearly defrauding it up. Just waiting for that gamer who has a harvard law cousin who needs pro bono hours to pop out after someone like esl refuses to pay.
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On November 01 2011 05:40 Huge O wrote:As far as I can tell this is a basic explain of how E-sports should work. And the delivery of this seems to be failing.
Cute. Amazing how many people don't understand how important this is.
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I'm surprised that there's not a lot of legally binding paperwork involved that helps to guarantee payment. That would seem like a pretty damn good idea.
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EPT
