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I never realized TL had so many different experts on best business practices, standards, and what's lawful.
Fact is, Players expectations aren't being set for payments. If Cloud knew WHEN he was getting paid (and those tourny directors/organizers/etc followed through) we wouldn't have this thread/discussion.
We can argue about what's acceptable and what's not until our faces turn blue but the practice won't change.
There are going to be one-off's where a company/tournament has something happen causing it to not pay, but this falls in line with setting expectations. Seems like a simple fix to me....and thus there would be less headhunting.
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I am pretty sure that in any event, IT infrastructure, venue, catering etc. expenses are paid by the organizers way before the players. Enough with the ''we did not get the money from sponsors" or "too much bureaucracy" bullshit. If an event organizer tells an IT firm "please do our event but we will pay you in 3-4 months" I am sure they will get a middle finger from the IT company as an answer. They dont pay to the players because there is not an immediate repercussion to not to. This is as simple as that.
The players ARE the reason the organizers have a show. Players should get a hold of this fact. The organizers are not doing a favor to you, you are doing a favor to them. So the players should be paid in a month after they provide their credentials, like everybody else. Why "3 months is okay" i dont get it.
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Depressing thread to read. Hopefully when the drama subsides there will be some real change.
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If there are tournaments that don't pay the players in any reasonable or timely fashion, then people just need to bring it up and make it public knowledge.
When people know which tournaments have had issues with that in the past, then they can decide for themselves whether they think it's worth the risk to play/support those tournaments, or opt for a more reliable tournament.
Making a huge organization to control everything might be very difficult and complicated, so at least for now it might be easier just to make these things public knowledge so that people can decide for themselves.
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As host of MotM, prize money is something I -always- made sure went out ASAP. I always made sure that I had the money secured before the games were even played. Now sure, Map of the Month only had $100-150 prizes, but if anything that means we should be less trustworthy. I'm really shocked that Thousands of dollars are still unpaid.
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This is an amazing problem for some reason I never thought of some of the smaller tournaments not paying their players. The community needs to ban these tournaments if they don't pay. It is simple.
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Canada11350 Posts
On November 01 2011 01:06 Willes wrote:
Make it public, for example: all tournaments where the prizewinners need to mail/harass the admins for the money are put on a list which will be continiously updated here on tl.net.
Everybody can read the list.
Everybody can decide to not play on tournaments that are well known for not paying.
They will think twice about it if they know that it has consequences.
I think this is the most reasonable solution given our current state. A KESPA-like organization (when it still represented players) may be necessary somewhere down the road. But for now moral-suasion/ public shaming would probably be better than hardline banning tournaments. If TL had a top 10 list of tournaments paying up. And a Bottom 10 Threatdown ala Colbert of worst tournaments that was updated regularly. (10 Biggest threats to ESPORTS)
Furthermore, if shows like State of the Game, DJ Wheat's show gave some airtime on the good and bad tournaments perhaps the increased publicity within the community would help a little. Players can decide for themselves if they want to boycott events, but at least gamers have a better idea what sort of tournament they're getting into. It's definitely worth highlighting something like NASL that struggled throughout it's first season with a variety of issues, but is one of the tournaments that actually pays up. It's also worth highlighting the smaller tournaments that pay promptly.
I guess the problem is who decides and what constitutes to late.
I'm very glad this thread has been made as I had very little clue about this issue. I've heard rumours here and there, but this is rather terrible.
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On November 01 2011 02:43 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 02:41 OGKruemmel wrote:On November 01 2011 02:39 IdrA wrote:On November 01 2011 02:08 Joshy.IGN wrote:
Note from IGN: We paid out everyone from IPL season 1, and we are aware that certain players from IPL 2 have not yet received their winnings. IPL 2's grand final aired on August 14th, not even 90 days ago. We have everyone's financial information from IPL 2 and the current word is that checks/Paypal transfers should be ready to go within the week.
One thing about IGN Pro League that people may not consider is that we are not just 1 guy with $1000 laying around that we can just dump in someone's account the moment they win a bo5. IGN is a massive organization that we are just one part of, and we have to adhere to all of the federal regulations that are invoked when dealing with paying thousands of dollars to (as far as the law is concerned) international contractors. We have a finance department that must be satisfied with its paperwork before we can give out money. Not only this, but our players were informed that there would be a wait involved when we collected their payment information.
I'm sorry to hear that ClouD, Darkforce, and others have been waiting a long time for a lot of money, but trust me, IGN Pro League has every intent of paying everyone, even down to translators for online qualifiers, what they are owed. =) i have not been paid for ipl season 1 So, who should we trust now? to be fair ipl is obviously legitimate and i know other players have received their prizes from them, but i have not.
hmmm... maybe you should take them to small claims international internet court? That's what I would do.
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On November 01 2011 04:34 Klondikebar wrote:
False. Promising money you don't yet have is how
1. Credit cards
2. Loans
3. Standard payroll
4. The US Fed (and every other central bank I believe)
works.
It's also worth noting that many export driven economies are currently healthy BECAUSE of tremendous government debt in import heavy economies (i.e. China owns a ton of US debt and is wealthier for it).
The failing European economies are defaulting because their creditors no longer believe they can pay back their debt, not just because they have debt.
And a ponzie scheme is when you promise money that you're going to get by promising money that you don't have. There's also nothing inherently wrong with a ponzie scheme. They're illegal in the US though because they tend to be parts of scams.
Yes this is how CCs, loans, and the govt work. The thing is we aren't talking about credit cards, loans, or governments are we? Someone else mention how long it takes for them to get paid for their govt contract work. I don't care. You are comparing apples to oranges. And yes, most economies around the world are failing right now.
I personally think sponsors should pay money up front, but maybe it is not possible to find such sponsors. It's acceptable if a tournament has to wait out their 30 day payment cycle. Tournaments should be doing everything they need to prepare the payment just short of actually paying it during the period where they are waiting for sponsor reimbursement. Once they get the money there shouldn't be more than a weeks time frame to have the payment clear in their bank and to transfer the money to the player. If as tournament organizer you pick sponsors that don't pay out for months at at time, I don't blame the sponsor, I blame the tournament for not establishing reasonable time frames through contracts. If the sponsors pay out in a timely manner, but the tournament sits on the winnings in their bank accounts collecting on the interest, again it's the tournament to blame.
"There's also nothing inherently wrong with a ponzie scheme." LOL. There is a lot wrong with ponzi schemes. Namely, the last people to invest/cash in lose everything even though they were promised the otherwise. I only mentioned ponzi schemes, because it is possible some of these tournaments are paying out past tournaments with current earnings and the winners of the last tournament will be left holding the bag. Hopefully none are run like this though.
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Wow, guys. That's awful and I'm really sorry to hear about it. I guess aTn doesn't have legal representation that could help you guys get your money? I'm pretty sure the bigger teams like EG and Col have some sort of legal people. Either way, you guys really shouldn't have to deal with this kind of stuff if you're on a team. Your team administration should be able to help you so that you don't have to worry about it. If only I was a lawyer...
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Canada1637 Posts
On November 01 2011 05:19 xerathul wrote:
I am pretty sure that in an event, IT infrastructure, venue, catering etc. expenses are paid by the organizers way before the players. Enough with the ''we did not get the money from sponsors" or "too much bureaucracy" bullshit. If an event organizer tells an IT firm "please do our event but we will pay you in 3-4 months" I am sure they will get a middle finger from the IT company as an answer. They dont pay to the players because there is not an immediate repercussion to not to. This is as simple as that.
I agree with this, online events may be one thing, but in terms of a live event, what % of the operating costs of an event is the prize money? Generally a relatively low percentage.
Overall not only do I think the situation is sad, I think this should really fall on team managers to hound organizations for the money, not only will this allow players to focus on the game more (why do people think Koreans are good in the first place?) but also it will lead to a smaller core of people realizing the problematic organizations and taking steps to have it stop or change, be it through unified boycotts or w/e have you.
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On November 01 2011 05:10 D.Devil wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 04:41 Naniwa wrote:On November 01 2011 01:21 D.Devil wrote:
This isn't a recent problem but something that haunts esports since its early days. The CPL didn't ever pay some teams the prize money for events in 2002 and 2003 and still continued to live on for quite a while.
Nonetheless, even it might seem counter-intuitive at first, blacklists and publicly calling out organizations won't help anyone. Hosting a big event requires a lot of work, and the prize money is a rather small (yet important) aspect overall. So don't expect anyone to be there to just "replace" today's organizers if they are forced to quit. Even if they're at fault, there's no point in boycotting as it'll only make everyone wait longer or not receive any money at all. So it's not really coincidence that most teams prefer to be quiet as long as the organizers play fair (which the CPL ultimately didn't, so it was boycotted and forced to quit after all). funny that you are talking since Your wc3 team Hoorai scammed me off 600 euros you piece of...... hi :o You know very well that I didn't handle the payments at hoorai and it wasn't my responsibility to take care of that. Also we always treated -and paiid- you well. But anyway, that's many years ago (and certainly hoorai was far from perfect).. tbh I don't even remember if you're right, but it may very well be. In any case: I'm sorry, dude. I just don't see why you even bring this up now as I don't feel like it's related to my post. (and I believe calling me a piece of shit isn't the way to go.) My point still stands: By creating blacklists and boycotting events, you only make things worse. This isn't the solution to this problem. Of course, something needs to be done about it, but I don't like that the majority of people here believes that you achieve that by punishing ESL, ESWC and others.
you think i would have some fake grudge against you? for fck sake get real, you were co owner of the team so stop tossing away responsibility pay up or gtfo
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37024 Posts
Uhhh..... wow..... didn't even know this was an issue. wtf...... if the player is supposed to be paid, he/she should be paid. Simple as that. Stupid tourney organizations...
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That's rough news. But you have to take that into consideration when you sign up. You know yourself there is a non-zero probability you won't see a dime, you have to factor that into what you expect to earn at a given tournament.
When you say in the OP you enter a tournament that you know has a history of not settling debts, you can't be 100% shocked if you aren't paid. It's terrible and awful and they should be out of business but you certainly can't be shocked.
As far as getting your money back, the first step would be to talk to your debtors, but I'm sure you've been down that road already. It will most likely take legal action (or threat of it) to get your money. Unfortunately for the amount of money a progamer makes it's never going to be worth the cost of getting a lawyer. Your best bet is probably to try and contact other players who weren't paid their prize money and start a class action suit (or local equivalent, depending on where the tournament is held).
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see, this is why people like IPL and MLG and GSL, they have their shit together, you think they would ever be late on their prize payments?..
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On November 01 2011 05:20 TheLOLas wrote:
This is an amazing problem for some reason I never thought of some of the smaller tournaments not paying their players. The community needs to ban these tournaments if they don't pay. It is simple.
Its not just small tournament huge tournament is exstremely l8t aswell IPL havent payed idra for IPL 1 yet etc ESL 1 year waiting time Dreamhack BYOC etc
Its the entire scene
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This make me more sad than /v/ hate fest and r/starcraft during witchhunt combined together. I hope organizers and ppl in charge of some of those e-sport events gonna finally wake up. Its especially embarasing for ESL...
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On November 01 2011 05:13 Cruncharoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 05:10 D.Devil wrote:
My point still stands: By creating blacklists and boycotting events, you only make things worse. This isn't the solution to this problem. Of course, something needs to be done about it, but I don't like that the majority of people here believes that you achieve that by punishing ESL, ESWC and others. I really fail to understand how boycotting a tournament that doesn't pay it's prizes is the wrong course of action. Either they start to pay their players in a timely manner that is agreed upon beforehand or people don't play their tournaments and continue to make them profits. Nothing will get an organizations attention quicker than threatening to take away their bottom line, in my opinion.
A tournament's value doesn't only lie in its prize money. Obviously, it provides entertainment value for spectators (who care about the participants and their motivation to win, not about the prize itself), but it also provides players and their teams with public exposure - public exposure that makes it possible to get more fans and acquire sponsorship money. For instance, the fact that IEM is featured on TV (Eurosport) makes the event attractive even if you completely disregard prize money. Even events that have trouble paying out prize money contribute to esports growth, and the damage they cause isn't tooo serious, because as I mentioned before, players aren't exactly dependant on it as long as the esports infrastructure is healthy. I'm not saying it's okay to have such high payout delays, just that you need to differentiate instead of hoping that all those organizers quit.
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What people don't seem to understand is that the companies that are contacted, or are behind the events that take place, do not put aside the lump sum in most cases. They have monthly budgets, and their marketing dollars are allocated among many other things, such as advertising, or other promotions outside of gaming.
Unless a chunk is paid upfront to the organizers of the events, tournaments usually have to wait several months until said money is paid out in full, and can be forwarded to the players appropriately.
Having been both a player and part of tournament organization, it pains me to see such threads every time and the irrational outrage that ensues.
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On November 01 2011 05:25 Lamphead wrote:
see, this is why people like IPL and MLG and GSL, they have their shit together, you think they would ever be late on their prize payments?..
There are a few accounts of players not yet paid by IPL in this thread.
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EPT
