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On November 01 2011 04:34 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 04:28 fyndor wrote:On November 01 2011 04:01 Teiwaz wrote:
I'm sorry to come up with this but...what do you do for a living and how old are you?
Seriously, promising money you don't have (yet) is how the fucking world economy works! You're right, that is how failing economies work. It is also how ponzi schemes work. False. Promising money you don't yet have is how 1. Credit cards 2. Loans 3. Standard payroll 4. The US Fed (and every other central bank I believe) works. It's also worth noting that many export driven economies are currently healthy BECAUSE of tremendous government debt in import heavy economies (i.e. China owns a ton of US debt and is wealthier for it). The failing European economies are defaulting because their creditors no longer believe they can pay back their debt, not just because they have debt. And a ponzie scheme is when you promise money that you're going to get by promising money that you don't have. There's also nothing inherently wrong with a ponzie scheme. They're illegal in the US though because they tend to be parts of scams.
Well, EU economy fails (at least IMO  ) because:
1.) Politicians are 99% corrupt scumbags
2.) EU economy/EURO surpassed US economy/Dollar
3.) Those creditors are mostly US based
4.) Rating agencies have very high interest in keeping the Dollar above or at least as strong as the EURO
But as I said, that's just my humble opinion 
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I honestly had no idea that this was such a big problem. Truly disgusting. Aren't these companies legally binded in some way to pay the prize money? I feel like it should be illegal to advertise a tournament guaranteeing a certain amount of money and then not paying out. I guess I always thought that the players sign an agreement or something before entering tournaments, but I guess that's not the case.
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So that means I have to keep my day job ? aww.
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Id be surprised if it was any different in local sports tournaments. ( doesn't mean its right thing to do ) .
I guess its hard to fight against unfortunately. Thumbs up to tournaments who deal with prizemoney swiftly .
Sorry to hear some people don't get paid, everyone who won.deserves it.
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On November 01 2011 04:41 Naniwa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 01:21 D.Devil wrote:
This isn't a recent problem but something that haunts esports since its early days. The CPL didn't ever pay some teams the prize money for events in 2002 and 2003 and still continued to live on for quite a while.
Nonetheless, even it might seem counter-intuitive at first, blacklists and publicly calling out organizations won't help anyone. Hosting a big event requires a lot of work, and the prize money is a rather small (yet important) aspect overall. So don't expect anyone to be there to just "replace" today's organizers if they are forced to quit. Even if they're at fault, there's no point in boycotting as it'll only make everyone wait longer or not receive any money at all. So it's not really coincidence that most teams prefer to be quiet as long as the organizers play fair (which the CPL ultimately didn't, so it was boycotted and forced to quit after all). funny that you are talking since Your wc3 team Hoorai scammed me off 600 euros you piece of......
This suggest teams can also be at fault e.g. Fruitdealer, Virus and Naniwa's example above.
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On November 01 2011 04:41 Naniwa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 01:21 D.Devil wrote:
This isn't a recent problem but something that haunts esports since its early days. The CPL didn't ever pay some teams the prize money for events in 2002 and 2003 and still continued to live on for quite a while.
Nonetheless, even it might seem counter-intuitive at first, blacklists and publicly calling out organizations won't help anyone. Hosting a big event requires a lot of work, and the prize money is a rather small (yet important) aspect overall. So don't expect anyone to be there to just "replace" today's organizers if they are forced to quit. Even if they're at fault, there's no point in boycotting as it'll only make everyone wait longer or not receive any money at all. So it's not really coincidence that most teams prefer to be quiet as long as the organizers play fair (which the CPL ultimately didn't, so it was boycotted and forced to quit after all). funny that you are talking since Your wc3 team Hoorai scammed me off 600 euros you piece of......
baahahaha.
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On November 01 2011 04:42 Teiwaz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 04:34 Klondikebar wrote:On November 01 2011 04:28 fyndor wrote:On November 01 2011 04:01 Teiwaz wrote:
I'm sorry to come up with this but...what do you do for a living and how old are you?
Seriously, promising money you don't have (yet) is how the fucking world economy works! You're right, that is how failing economies work. It is also how ponzi schemes work. False. Promising money you don't yet have is how 1. Credit cards 2. Loans 3. Standard payroll 4. The US Fed (and every other central bank I believe) works. It's also worth noting that many export driven economies are currently healthy BECAUSE of tremendous government debt in import heavy economies (i.e. China owns a ton of US debt and is wealthier for it). The failing European economies are defaulting because their creditors no longer believe they can pay back their debt, not just because they have debt. And a ponzie scheme is when you promise money that you're going to get by promising money that you don't have. There's also nothing inherently wrong with a ponzie scheme. They're illegal in the US though because they tend to be parts of scams. Well, EU economy fails (at least IMO ) because: 1.) Politicians are 99% corrupt scumbags 2.) EU economy/EURO surpassed US economy/Dollar 3.) Those creditors are mostly US based 4.) Rating agencies have very high interest in keeping the Dollar above or at least as strong as the EURO But as I said, that's just my humble opinion
The actual "why" isn't so much the issue in this thread. I'm mostly trying to convey the fact that credit is a fundamental part of the world economy and expecting tournaments to just have the cash sitting in piles to hand out as soon as the tournament is over is unrealistic. Especially when many of them have to wait for the money to come from sponsors as well.
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On November 01 2011 04:41 Naniwa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 01:21 D.Devil wrote:
This isn't a recent problem but something that haunts esports since its early days. The CPL didn't ever pay some teams the prize money for events in 2002 and 2003 and still continued to live on for quite a while.
Nonetheless, even it might seem counter-intuitive at first, blacklists and publicly calling out organizations won't help anyone. Hosting a big event requires a lot of work, and the prize money is a rather small (yet important) aspect overall. So don't expect anyone to be there to just "replace" today's organizers if they are forced to quit. Even if they're at fault, there's no point in boycotting as it'll only make everyone wait longer or not receive any money at all. So it's not really coincidence that most teams prefer to be quiet as long as the organizers play fair (which the CPL ultimately didn't, so it was boycotted and forced to quit after all). funny that you are talking since Your wc3 team Hoorai scammed me off 600 euros you piece of......
And the plot thickens! A lot of dirt being bought up in this thread t_t
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For once I'm happy I'm not good enough to be pro. Seriously making effort over getting money from 50$ cup wins is idiotic. Why the hell do they have tournaments if they can't instantly pay small amounts like that? It's pretty terrible that even bigger organization like ESL can be that bad in money handling.
Here I'm hoping these same news won't be heard from recent bigger prize pool events like IPL, ESWC and IESF had pretty high prizes too. Well ESWC was mentioned but can't judge them yet.
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On November 01 2011 04:36 fyndor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 04:14 csn_JohnClark wrote:
wow.. .
I have been a business manager for a small company.. (25 employees).. but a company that makes 1 million+ a year in revenue. When we win contracts with the Government to do a job.... through a contractor (we being a sub contractor).. there are several factors at play.
1. We MUST fill out all paperwork properly or the process to be paid is delayed.
2. We do the job BEFORE we are paid and even before the contractor is paid.
3. Once the job is complete, we are expected to be paid according the agreements set in place.. most often times 90 days.
4. If a contractor has not been paid by the Government.. this will delay payment to our company.
5. There is NO guarantee that the contractor will pay us within 90 days. Many issues can arise that delay this process.
6. 99% of the time, we ARE Paid.. but it is not always easy and it can easily be our fault in some cases.
Those that do not pay us... have legal action taken.
Oddly enough..this entire process was put into place to HELP make sure contractors/sub contractors do get paid. There are so many regulations in place to protect the small business...but issues do come up and there are times when action must be taken.
I believe that things will get better in gaming.. as they already have 10 fold.. but we must not jump the gun on the very organizations that are helping build esports. Those that do NOT pay at all.. and those with a poor track record of COMMUNICATION with the players should be exposed... but the overall expectations of how the business of esports works needs to be realistic. Quit equating govt work with Starcraft 2. They aren't even close to similar.
The times needed for payment are similar. Also it's payment from sponsors(government) -> organizers(contractors)->subcontractors(players).
If it takes 30 days for each transfer that's 60 days. When dealing with larger sums of money you do have to fill out paperwork, and that takes time. Somebody on the receiving end has to read over the paperwork and decide if it is legitimate. 30-60 days is definitely acceptable, because a contractor has a similar payment scheme. One-time payments always take longer than regular payments because you need to fill out a lot more paperwork than for recurrent payments.
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On November 01 2011 04:41 Naniwa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 01:21 D.Devil wrote:
This isn't a recent problem but something that haunts esports since its early days. The CPL didn't ever pay some teams the prize money for events in 2002 and 2003 and still continued to live on for quite a while.
Nonetheless, even it might seem counter-intuitive at first, blacklists and publicly calling out organizations won't help anyone. Hosting a big event requires a lot of work, and the prize money is a rather small (yet important) aspect overall. So don't expect anyone to be there to just "replace" today's organizers if they are forced to quit. Even if they're at fault, there's no point in boycotting as it'll only make everyone wait longer or not receive any money at all. So it's not really coincidence that most teams prefer to be quiet as long as the organizers play fair (which the CPL ultimately didn't, so it was boycotted and forced to quit after all). funny that you are talking since Your wc3 team Hoorai scammed me off 600 euros you piece of......
You go Nani:D
About time the players stand up for themself
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shame on you ESL... and i bet ESWC won't pay either... there have been bad rumors about ESWC ever since.
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Not sure if this has been mentioned but regarding ESWC in 2008 the korean orc WhO won what i think was supposed to be $10,000 (USD?) and still hasn't and will never receive the money...i know it doesn't make it less of an issue that the little things sometimes don't get paid/have to wait for them but 10k is a very, very big deal o.O if someone owed me 10k and had no intentions of paying up after 3 years i would probably break their legs
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Interesting to see that often(if not always) it falls down to the players themselves to have to hassle organisations for their prize winnings, I would have expected (perhaps naively) for this to come under the umbrella of things their teams handled since I would imagine an entire team would have more clout.
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I have experience with getting prizemoney from ESL
my tip, whatever time period they give you to get paid, if they say 6 months, expect it 18 months later, or half of it to come 18 months later then the other half another 6 after that
it sucks that this can happen
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C'mon community is this all what you can do? Only 32 pages this far. EG's announcement mystery reached shit loads of pages and it wasnt nearly as important as this. Lets make sure that everyone gets to hear about this as this is worth of all the drama.
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On November 01 2011 04:53 iAmBiGbiRd wrote:
Not sure if this has been mentioned but regarding ESWC in 2008 the korean orc WhO won what i think was supposed to be $10,000 (USD?) and still hasn't and will never receive the money...i know it doesn't make it less of an issue that the little things sometimes don't get paid/have to wait for them but 10k is a very, very big deal o.O if someone owed me 10k and had no intentions of paying up after 3 years i would probably break their legs
There were people who won even more money than that at those ESWC's and will never be paid.
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On November 01 2011 04:45 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 04:42 Teiwaz wrote:On November 01 2011 04:34 Klondikebar wrote:On November 01 2011 04:28 fyndor wrote:On November 01 2011 04:01 Teiwaz wrote:
I'm sorry to come up with this but...what do you do for a living and how old are you?
Seriously, promising money you don't have (yet) is how the fucking world economy works! You're right, that is how failing economies work. It is also how ponzi schemes work. False. Promising money you don't yet have is how 1. Credit cards 2. Loans 3. Standard payroll 4. The US Fed (and every other central bank I believe) works. It's also worth noting that many export driven economies are currently healthy BECAUSE of tremendous government debt in import heavy economies (i.e. China owns a ton of US debt and is wealthier for it). The failing European economies are defaulting because their creditors no longer believe they can pay back their debt, not just because they have debt. And a ponzie scheme is when you promise money that you're going to get by promising money that you don't have. There's also nothing inherently wrong with a ponzie scheme. They're illegal in the US though because they tend to be parts of scams. Well, EU economy fails (at least IMO ) because: 1.) Politicians are 99% corrupt scumbags 2.) EU economy/EURO surpassed US economy/Dollar 3.) Those creditors are mostly US based 4.) Rating agencies have very high interest in keeping the Dollar above or at least as strong as the EURO But as I said, that's just my humble opinion The actual "why" isn't so much the issue in this thread. I'm mostly trying to convey the fact that credit is a fundamental part of the world economy and expecting tournaments to just have the cash sitting in piles to hand out as soon as the tournament is over is unrealistic. Especially when many of them have to wait for the money to come from sponsors as well.
Well in the real sports like tennis, players don't have to wait 6 months(even an year) to get their money. And we are not talking about 6k...
The thing is that no one can force the e-sport tournaments to pay in time. There must be organization that can force them to pay or fine them or even ban them. Every single sport has one and I can't see E-sport to succeed without such organization.
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sooo.... spotlight for this thread?
while there is some bashing, i'd say it's more of an awareness thread on a fairly important topic
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I knew this was a problem from some posts regarding several EU tournaments, but this is something to see when it's laid out. If people are going to live off their income as professional gamers, tournament winnings are as much of a necessity as salaries, they need to be prompt and for great reason.
As prize pools are what draw gamers to tournaments, their existence needs to be in a state of bivalence...there is no middle ground, and those that think otherwise are hurting ESPORTS. If this becomes the standard of the industry, where do we draw the line?
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EPT
