EPTPrize money in Starcraft 2 - Page 30
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Budzlight
United States578 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 01 2011 04:01 Teiwaz wrote: I'm sorry to come up with this but...what do you do for a living and how old are you? Seriously, promising money you don't have (yet) is how the fucking world economy works! Don't tell them that most payrolls are run through short term credit. Their minds will be blown. | ||
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cost2010
Germany46 Posts
On November 01 2011 04:18 fyndor wrote: Just because this is the way they are doing things doesn't make it right? Can you think of a company/organization that you could owe money to for more than 30 days without being considered late? Almost nothing in my world is late until 30 days. After 30 days nearly company I do business with considers it late. Granted some have a few days grace period, but I can't think of a single company that would accept 60 days as on time. Just because this is the way they do business doesn't make it right. in consumer-land 2-4 weeks is standard. in business to business 90 days are not uncommon. | ||
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price
United States297 Posts
On November 01 2011 04:20 Plansix wrote: Don't tell them that most payrolls are run through short term credit. Their minds will be blown. heh. or what has been going on in greece ... | ||
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fyndor
United States159 Posts
On November 01 2011 03:47 Teiwaz wrote: It amazes me that some people still don't get it that up to 90 days of waiting after the tourney finished is fucking usual... I lol'ed  It amazes me people thing tournaments should be able to live by different rules than the rest of the business world. | ||
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Teiwaz
Austria158 Posts
On November 01 2011 04:17 Telcontar wrote: Just have incontrol at every tournament guarding the money. iNcontroL + BARRISTAN THE BOLD (in ~6 months) standing guard - prizeless :D | ||
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Termit
Sweden3466 Posts
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Klondikebar
United States2227 Posts
On November 01 2011 04:17 tetrismaan wrote: Why would a union for Starcraft players be bad? At the very least, teams should have managers sorting out all these problems for them instead of them having to worry themselves. An organisation like KeSPA would be great for Starcraft as well. Just like UEFA and FIFA for soccer, and all other organisations for every other sport. KeSPA borderline brutalized players. Like most professional sports, the players were paid a teensie tiny portion of the revenue they actually generated. Wishing for a KeSPA for SCII will have drawbacks that we might not want. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On November 01 2011 04:21 Teiwaz wrote: iNcontroL + BARRISTAN THE BOLD (in ~6 months) standing guard - prizeless :D Lmfao "prizeless". Freudian slip? | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
Where I worked, my first paycheck came a bit over a month later. I assume roughly the same processing time and add a week for international, and another for assuming pros are lazy about submitting payment info. That's already a month and a half. Anything over 60 days though they need to consider cleaning up a bit, and over 90 hitting unacceptable. People in this thread shouldn't be hating on tournaments for not paying within 30 days, because that's extremely hard when you aren't making regular payments to these people, especially when you are dealing with larger sums of money. | ||
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MasterKush
United Kingdom568 Posts
As a simple solution, I feel that the management running the teams need to be the one's to step in and ensure that their players are paid (and promptly). I don't think many tournament organisers would like the bad PR and it would cast their organisation/business in a bad light for future tournaments. For example, how many teams would send players over to MLG if they had a reputation of not paying out? (I'm just using MLG as an example organisation, and have no reason to suggest they do this). Someone mentioned earlier about creating a Kespa like organisation for SC2 but I feel this would have to be carefully discussed and ultimately decided upon by the teams/players themselves. Just my 2p. | ||
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Earll
Norway847 Posts
WCG Has had a clusterduck of a League of legends qualifier now also. To give the short summed up version ,The canadian and the US qualifiers are run by 1 branch of WCG, and each country has a tournament where winner gets to go to korea for the WCG finals. And from where I am standing it seems like the only reasonable answer as to why this is, is that someone inside the organization wants specific teams to win. First of all, 1 player (called Jatt) played first in the canadian Tournament, then in the american tournament which he was able to do since he has dual citizenship. It is specifically stated in the WCG rules that this is not allowed though, so what happened was that he played in the tournament, got knocked out in the quarter finals, and then he got reported\whatever for playing in the US tournament after having already played in the canadian one, and he got "Disqualified" from the tournament he was already knocked out of (essentially nothing happened), and he was still allowed to play in the american tournament. And then something even worse happened. Team CDE was against team dignitas (The team jatt is in). It was supposed to be a weighted best of 3 in favor of dignitas(so the series starts of 1-0 to Dignitas) because of winners bracket advantage. Both teams were 100% aware of this,it was stated in the rules on the website, and this was the way other qualifiers had been played. Had dignitas won the first game, nothing more would happen, and they would be going to korea. CDE happened to win two games in a row though, and then won the qualifier, both teams were aware of this and the rules, and dignitas said their "congratulations good luck in korea" and whatnot. Then the next day someone somehow have found out, out of nowhere, that It should have been 3 best of 3 sets played, where the team from the winners bracket has 1 set advantage, essentially meaning that the 2-0 was the first best of 3, and they had to win 1 more best of 3 to actually win the finals that was already won. A lot of uproar on the forums and whatnot, and it ends up with the riot e-sports employ (who supposedly worked together with WCG on this) joined State of the League (LoL version of Sotg) and he said something to the effect of "The reason the rules were changed, was that WCG wanted consistency in how the tournament was played, in canada they played 3 best sets of 3, where the winners bracket had 1 set advantage." But a player from the team of the winner of the canadian WCG was on the State of the league at that moment, and he said they only played a weighted best of 3, where they won 1 game and won the trip to korea. The riot employee basically just said oh we will look into it. It ended up with CDE having to replay 1 best of 3 against (which they lost, losing a trip to korea they had already won.) The reason being that they wanted to do it the same way the canadian tournament had done it, and the canadian tournament had only done 1 weighted best of 3 series ending 2-0. I thought it as pretty disgusting to see players work hard for something, become so happy when they won etc( watched the stream when it happened) and then get so royally fucked over for no reason whatsoever and the only thing they can really do is complain about it on forums where they get banned for mentioning it. And in a few weeks\month, this will all blow over and WCG will be free to fuck over someone else in some other way. Tl dr: 1) A LoL player, plays both canadian and US tournaments which is against WCG rules. When he is found out WCG bans him from a tournament he has already lost, and lets him play in the other. 2) WCG Changes the format of a finals the day after it is won for no valid reason, even though it directly conflicts against the rules listed on their homepage, and what both teams understood the day before. so the team that lost gets to play 1 more Best of 3 (which they win and then win the qualifiers) Shit like this should not happen in E-Sports. :{ | ||
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Coeboe
United States3 Posts
On November 01 2011 04:00 NeWeNiyaLord wrote: What does that even mean? Business world? The fact is, everything is business. Handling it professionally is what matters. You speak of business world as its a internally joke between you and the persons who agree with you. Think of it this way. If I payed for a videogame. But the manufacturer of that game doesnt send it until 3-12 months later. Is that acceptable? no? yes? the answer is simple. But needs to have different facts to it, for it to be called proffesional. If the manufacturer gave some info on what is going on and why. The answer could very well be yes. Or think of it like this. You sell cars. One costumer buys it on credit. And you dont get your money in 3-12 months, is that acceptable? Before posting crap like real world and business world and all of that. You really think you understand how everything works and should work? As for my self. I own a software company. And If my costumer pays me the money i request for my product, but dont receive the lisence string for up until 1 year later, is that acceptable? pff Downvote for the unnecessary anger. I agree that the super long waiting times for players are infuriating and as someone who loves esports it makes my heart cry. But "business world" is a common saying so I don't know why you freaked out about that? However, you keep referring to winning a tournament like buying a product but it's not. There is no product involved, if anything, it's more like paying for a service. I'll use the film industry as an example (because it's what I know the best). When I'm hired to be a crew member on a film I have to sign a contract so that the person I'm working for has legal repercussions if he doesn't pay me. The average contract in the film business promises to pay in 60 days. If i'm really really lucky they will pay me in 30. The point of this is, I'm hired to perform a service and then I have to go two months before getting paid, THAT is the real/business world of it. In this rant though I feel I touched upon the one thing that would really help players and make the esports scene better. Contracts. Hold someone legally responsible to pay you or they can pay the courts. For those who are trying their hardest to support the community and run solid tournys, I salute you and hope you make big names for yourself so that the whole community can bask in your greatness. | ||
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Teiwaz
Austria158 Posts
On November 01 2011 04:18 fyndor wrote: Just because this is the way they are doing things doesn't make it right? Can you think of a company/organization that you could owe money to for more than 30 days without being considered late? Almost nothing in my world is late until 30 days. After 30 days nearly company I do business with considers it late. Granted some have a few days grace period, but I can't think of a single company that would accept 60 days as on time. Just because this is the way they do business doesn't make it right. That's 30 days for moving from A --> B. We're talking about A --> B --> C, which can easily add up to 60 days. | ||
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VillageBC
322 Posts
It seems ridiculous that members of major teams (even smaller teams) have to worry about getting the prize payouts themselves. This should be up to their team to hunt down, threaten, harass and bludgeon payment out of the tournaments that rely on their players to attend. I can also see some of the bigger teams, and bigger player names negotiating contracts that the team pays out the tournament winnings and then goes after then tournament to recoup the costs. | ||
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legaton
France1763 Posts
This is why you always (players as well as organizers) need to have some cash flow at hand, at least enough money to pay for three months of operations. But a one yea delay is pretty crazy like ESL. Those kinds of delays usually means you are looking at a bankrupt organization. They are probably tunneling money for the new tournaments to pay for the old ones. This doesn't mean they are dishonest or incompetent but most probably, they were fucked over by sponsors that never gave the money. People should note tournament organizers have zero leverage against sponsors. The costs of a lawyers are several times higher than the money exchanged on these contracts. A relatively unexperienced lawyer is going to cost you at least 100 dollars per hour. And some of the sponsors can be as broke as the tournament organizers. On one hand, Intel or Pepsi are so huge they just forget about you. On the other hand, Roccat or Razer-like companies are small and their business models consist on selling 2 dollar hardware made in China for 100 dollars+. On a shitty economy like this one, you are going to have some problems selling standard hardware at premium prizes. Pro-tip: Milkis was right. Brodwar is (was?) the only "E-sports" around. Anything else is just a venture business having a hard time. | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On November 01 2011 04:25 VillageBC wrote: Can I ask where team management is in this? It seems ridiculous that members of major teams (even smaller teams) have to worry about getting the prize payouts themselves. This should be up to their team to hunt down, threaten, harass and bludgeon payment out of the tournaments that rely on their players to attend. I can also see some of the bigger teams, and bigger player names negotiating contracts that the team pays out the tournament winnings and then goes after then tournament to recoup the costs. Thank god, someone looking at this from the right angle. Except the whole last sentence, but this should 1000000000000000000000% be on management, and is awful the players have to deal with this shit. | ||
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shaldengeki
United States104 Posts
On November 01 2011 04:22 Klondikebar wrote: KeSPA borderline brutalized players. Like most professional sports, the players were paid a teensie tiny portion of the revenue they actually generated. Wishing for a KeSPA for SCII will have drawbacks that we might not want. I was gonna say this. Though I feel like a minimally-hierarchical model might work really well in the case of SC2 players; make the tree as flat as possible. Honestly I don't see any point in demonizing tournament organizers on the whole. That's unfair to the vast majority of tournament organizers, and the conflicts tend to already be emotionally-charged as it is. A player's union of sorts sounds like a good idea; I don't think we're going to run into the issue of demanding unfair pay levels that we get in other labor markets anytime soon. | ||
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BroboCop
United States373 Posts
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dukem
Norway189 Posts
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