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On November 01 2011 02:49 sleepingdog wrote:
this problem is a very "standard" reallife-problem (I've worked for a big law-firm before I started teaching law at the university) - if nobody dares to sue, companies will be reluctant to fulfil their contractual obligations
therefore simple advice: get yourself a lawyer and start suing the crap out of people; usually you have to do it a couple of times, then they'll start paying on time.
Yep, this is something most people don't understand. Suing isn't a sign of weakness or over the top. It's the only thing that creates change in this world. If you don't like being abused by the police, sue them. If you don't like receiving your money a year late, sue.
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This happens way too often, I really don't like overriding governmental bodies but Progamers are in a bad situation where they really need to practice 8-10 hours a day and they make about as much as working at mcdonalds 90% of the time so going after every single company that owes them is a huge hastle which leads Prize money to be delayed for 6 months + or not even paid at all. So bare minimum having an organization that can represent players would be very good. That said I can vouch for CSN and Playhem for payment in less than 24 hours.
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They should have to pour the money out on a table like they do at the World Series of Poker. :p
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On November 01 2011 03:26 csn_JohnClark wrote:I am simply saying that many in this thread need to step back and look at this from a business stand point first...
With all the businesses I deal with, up to 30 days is on time. After 30 days its late and fees may be added to the balance in some cases. Yet in your world, it can be up to 6 months and still considered paying on time? Why is Starcraft 2 related business different than other business? You guys may act like its different, but its not different. Business is business. The difference here is the people you owe money to don't have much leverage to make you pay sooner so you take as long as you like.
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On November 01 2011 04:07 Seronei wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 04:01 Teiwaz wrote:On November 01 2011 03:56 Seronei wrote:On November 01 2011 03:53 Teiwaz wrote:On November 01 2011 03:48 Seronei wrote:On November 01 2011 03:47 Teiwaz wrote:On November 01 2011 03:42 fyndor wrote:On November 01 2011 02:08 Joshy.IGN wrote:
IPL 2's grand final aired on August 14th, not even 90 days ago. It amazes me that you think this is acceptable. It amazes me that some people still don't get it that up to 90 days of waiting after the tourney finished is fucking usual... Just because it's usual doesn't mean that it's acceptable. It is acceptable if you come to realize (and accept) how the real world out there (aka the business world) works. There's no double rainbow. Surely it doesn't take 90 days for the paperwork? It's not acceptable to promise money you don't have. I'm sorry to come up with this but...what do you do for a living and how old are you? Seriously, promising money you don't have (yet) is how the fucking world economy works! We're talking about a tournament with sponsorship not the world economy. Tournaments needs to start demanding the money from sponsors before the tournament is played else we'll always have problem with prices not being paid.
True, but as I said earlier: this seems to be something the business n00b eSports still has to learn.
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On November 01 2011 03:45 pbjsandwich wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 03:42 fyndor wrote:On November 01 2011 02:08 Joshy.IGN wrote:
IPL 2's grand final aired on August 14th, not even 90 days ago. It amazes me that you think this is acceptable. lol you apparently have no idea how a lot of this works you're amazed because your view of how things should be don't fit how things are
you apparently have no idea how the corporate world works. Any company that doesn't pay within 30 days is charged interests. players should be able to do the same.
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On November 01 2011 04:10 crms wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 04:01 Teiwaz wrote:On November 01 2011 03:56 Seronei wrote:On November 01 2011 03:53 Teiwaz wrote:On November 01 2011 03:48 Seronei wrote:On November 01 2011 03:47 Teiwaz wrote:On November 01 2011 03:42 fyndor wrote:On November 01 2011 02:08 Joshy.IGN wrote:
IPL 2's grand final aired on August 14th, not even 90 days ago. It amazes me that you think this is acceptable. It amazes me that some people still don't get it that up to 90 days of waiting after the tourney finished is fucking usual... Just because it's usual doesn't mean that it's acceptable. It is acceptable if you come to realize (and accept) how the real world out there (aka the business world) works. There's no double rainbow. Surely it doesn't take 90 days for the paperwork? It's not acceptable to promise money you don't have. I'm sorry to come up with this but...what do you do for a living and how old are you? Seriously, promising money you don't have (yet) is how the fucking world economy works! You really need to quit with these absolutes and delusionals of time tables in the 'REAL WORLD, the BUSINESS WORLD'. You are absolutely correct that borrowing, debt, credit management is HUGE and companies do things like this all the time but to think its acceptable in a tournament format where players are competing for an advertised prize is absurd. This isn't some billion dollar hedge trying to manipulate their books for reporting and value sharing or a philosophical debate on the nature of the world's economy. For your other absurd question to the thread, im 27 and a scholarship coordinator. I oversee, award, adjust, and review millions of dollars worth of scholarhip awards and payments each year and nothing in our service standard from review to disbursement of funds takes anywhere close to 60-90 days.
winner
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wow.. .
I have been a business manager for a small company.. (25 employees).. but a company that makes 1 million+ a year in revenue. When we win contracts with the Government to do a job.... through a contractor (we being a sub contractor).. there are several factors at play.
1. We MUST fill out all paperwork properly or the process to be paid is delayed.
2. We do the job BEFORE we are paid and even before the contractor is paid.
3. Once the job is complete, we are expected to be paid according the agreements set in place.. most often times 90 days.
4. If a contractor has not been paid by the Government.. this will delay payment to our company.
5. There is NO guarantee that the contractor will pay us within 90 days. Many issues can arise that delay this process.
6. 99% of the time, we ARE Paid.. but it is not always easy and it can easily be our fault in some cases.
Those that do not pay us... have legal action taken.
Oddly enough..this entire process was put into place to HELP make sure contractors/sub contractors do get paid. There are so many regulations in place to protect the small business...but issues do come up and there are times when action must be taken.
I believe that things will get better in gaming.. as they already have 10 fold.. but we must not jump the gun on the very organizations that are helping build esports. Those that do NOT pay at all.. and those with a poor track record of COMMUNICATION with the players should be exposed... but the overall expectations of how the business of esports works needs to be realistic.
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Wait, how is this Blizzard's fault? Did they impose fees on all of these tournaments not paying out ex post facto? Or did these tourneys know or have the ability to know the already existing rules before deciding to scrooge players? One of these guys is gonna turn out to be Peter Parker (Haypro seems likely).
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You might all be surprised, but in the real world getting paid for your work if you are not an employee is a waiting game. 30 days is amazing, but typical invoice to payment is at least 3-6months. Many gov't, large organizations, or departments (like marketing) can take a year or longer to pay. Contractors have to wait a long time to be paid, because keeping the company going and paying employees is where cash is allocated to first. I have been contracted out where accounting depts forgot they owed my company $20k. It is called cash flow and it is apart of business, some have short cycles, some have very long cycles.
I don't mean to excuse companies that talk a long time to pay out competitors (6mo-1yr), but at the same time waiting to get paid can take a long time. I would love to know the cash flow of some of these tournies, I imagine some of them get paid long after their sponsors marketing budgets are redone. In most businesses if you don't have someone good managing cash flow, you can still make money and go out of business. We are still a very young industry and this is all apart of the growing pains. Eventually companies that can't find ways to play players will certainly go out a business.
Also this talk of a union is another esports blunder waiting to happen. Nothing could hurt esports more right now than putting a union between players, events and everything else that a union will get in the way of. Teams should take on the responsibility of sorting out junk tournies from the good ones and fighting for their players to be paid. If you are not a team, then it is just apart of managing your esports career. I can't imagine anyone looking forward to a union than those that would run it.
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My TeamLiquid shirt just came in the mail! <3 This thread was a downer but now im happy.
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On November 01 2011 04:11 Mae_Govannen wrote:
Regarding the problem ClouD mentioned in WCG Italy: Why don't you sit down with everyone in the semi-finals and make an agreement, that you're not going to play the tournament untill you have a paper signed by a representative, who is going to earn which prize for which place.
This isn't going to work for 95% of players. If someone as popular as Idra did it he could garner attention, but if someone like ClouD does it he's just not going to be getting invitations to future tournaments (and would have to qualify for these tournaments assuming there are open qualifiers).
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On November 01 2011 04:13 Dexerion wrote:
They should have to pour the money out on a table like they do at the World Series of Poker. :p
To have them being raid by some maniacs like it happened in...ahm...Berlin 2010?
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Unfortunate that this happens but I can see why almost all pros turn to streaming/coaching for money.
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This is ridiculous. Tournament sponsors need to get their act together.
I know some of the are responsible for paying players on time, but judging from these responses there are a lot more than don't.
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On November 01 2011 03:59 Carush wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 03:49 TheBomb wrote:
I actually think this is Blizzards fault. They charge everyone for prize pool over $5000, while at the same time the tournaments barely have money to operate and the players are not getting their hard earned money.
Nice job of supporting e-sports blizzard, more like robbing the small amount of money the players should be getting.
This is why I've written in the related threads so much about this, its like Blizzard is doing everything to stop e-sports and get on the back on it and try to suck it dry, while we have players and even casters not getting payed for months or at all.
I also think the prices will shrink, because while there is a lot of hype the audience for SC2 is not that big. I mean 100k unique viewers is not that much for a high level 100k in prizes tournament over 3 or 4 days. what are you talking about? blizzard doesn't charge anything they just get ad revenue
^^^^
It's either Blizzard charging ad revenue or Blizzard finding shiny new ways to go to Activision and say "Look, we're at least sorta getting money from this game that we're offering free ladder/balancing/bug fixing for." There's a reason Activision was riding Blizzard's ass to force a subscription fee.
I was waiting for how long it would take for someone to start blaming people that are totally not involved. Blizzard doesn't block payment to players or take five months to send out paypal payments. The sponsors give the money, and the organizers pay. Blizzard's ad revenue cut is just another check the organizers have to cut.
And besides, if the organizers are putting up a $1,000 (or any amount) prize pool and hoping that they get the ad revenue to cover it, they're utterly and completely retarded. You never budget anything on money you *hope* you'll get.
I like that people are becoming more vocal about tournaments that don't pay out. It forces them to actually do their jobs. Not everyone can pull an Idra, so they have to go with this. I see no problem with that. And seriously, a year to pay out prize money? What in the holy hell is that nonsense?
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
On November 01 2011 04:15 Teiwaz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 04:13 Dexerion wrote:
They should have to pour the money out on a table like they do at the World Series of Poker. :p To have them being raid by some maniacs like it happened in...ahm...Berlin 2010?
Just have incontrol at every tournament guarding the money.
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Why would a union for Starcraft players be bad? At the very least, teams should have managers sorting out all these problems for them instead of them having to worry themselves.
An organisation like KeSPA would be great for Starcraft as well. Just like UEFA and FIFA for soccer, and all other organisations for every other sport.
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On November 01 2011 03:45 pbjsandwich wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 03:42 fyndor wrote:On November 01 2011 02:08 Joshy.IGN wrote:
IPL 2's grand final aired on August 14th, not even 90 days ago. It amazes me that you think this is acceptable. lol you apparently have no idea how a lot of this works you're amazed because your view of how things should be don't fit how things are
Just because this is the way they are doing things doesn't make it right? Can you think of a company/organization that you could owe money to for more than 30 days without being considered late? Almost nothing in my world is late until 30 days. After 30 days nearly company I do business with considers it late. Granted some have a few days grace period, but I can't think of a single company that would accept 60 days as on time. Just because this is the way they do business doesn't make it right.
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On November 01 2011 02:08 Joshy.IGN wrote:
Note from IGN: We paid out everyone from IPL season 1, and we are aware that certain players from IPL 2 have not yet received their winnings. IPL 2's grand final aired on August 14th, not even 90 days ago. We have everyone's financial information from IPL 2 and the current word is that checks/Paypal transfers should be ready to go within the week.
One thing about IGN Pro League that people may not consider is that we are not just 1 guy with $1000 laying around that we can just dump in someone's account the moment they win a bo5. IGN is a massive organization that we are just one part of, and we have to adhere to all of the federal regulations that are invoked when dealing with paying thousands of dollars to (as far as the law is concerned) international contractors. We have a finance department that must be satisfied with its paperwork before we can give out money. Not only this, but our players were informed that there would be a wait involved when we collected their payment information.
I'm sorry to hear that ClouD, Darkforce, and others have been waiting a long time for a lot of money, but trust me, IGN Pro League has every intent of paying everyone, even down to translators for online qualifiers, what they are owed. =)
That's totally acceptable
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EPT
