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On November 01 2011 02:55 Joshy.IGN wrote:
We're talking with IdrA now to get this sorted out. We "closed the books" on IPL 1 a couple of months ago, so we're tracking the checks/payments now to see what's up and if we need to reissue. We just made some calls and verified that the last of IPL 2 checks/payments should be made this Friday. IPL 3, some players are still submitting their information.
I find this incredibly ironic that it's posted in this thread...
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On November 01 2011 03:17 polarfluKe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 01:53 DarKFoRcE wrote:
I updated my list with approximate amounts of money owed, might be slighty off in some instances:
Dailymotion Cup 200$ or €
EPS Season 17 ~450€
EPS Summer 2011 ~300€
Dreamhack Winter 2010 BYOC Qualifier (3000 SEK ~ 320€)
Epiccup invite turnier 50$
Virus invite turnier (100 or 150)$
IPL Season 2 400$
WCG National Finals (Hardware prize)
GeForce Pro Turnier 1575$ + hardware
TheGreat Showmatch hardware
Zotac Monthly Final September 500€
16.10.2011 Polarfluke OPtoberfest ~340$
19.10.2011 ESL Monthly Final September 500€
I did PM you regarding this, but I feel you have not played your part in the discussion and I have the right to say what I must say now. How exactly do you expect us to pay you? Did you bother to send me your payment details before I had to PM you earlier for them? Did you even read the tournament rules that are in place? Here is an excerpt from our Rules, updated on 13/10/2011: Payments (Added 13-10-2011) South African players must submit their banking details from their registered e-mail address Non South African players must submit their PayPal details from their registered e-mail address All prizes are paid in ZAR and thus the estimated USD value may be different to that stated on the tournament page due to currency fluctuations Players must submit their payment details within 2(two) weeks of the end of a tournament to receive their payment else the prize will be forfeit Once the 2(two) week period is over, all payments will be processed I did tell you after reading your OP that I would still make your payment even though you had failed to adhere to the rules of the tournament. This is absolutely ridiculous that you are including tournaments from 2 weeks ago; while I do support talking up about tournaments and hosts that have an extremely long wait time, you are causing damage to guys like me who do actually pay up. I work my ass off to host monthly tournaments with good prize pools. I spend hours upon hours in meetings, trying to get more money into my tournaments and with one or two posts you are able to wrongfully ruin a reputation my organization has earned. PolarfluKe has been running since May 2010 and we have run 18 tournaments for Starcraft II. Every tournament is paid up in full except for the tournament we hosted 2 weeks ago(15-16 October). If you had bothered to read the rules regarding payments (which I was forced to add because it takes players too long to send their payment details), I explicitly state how the payment structure works now. Do not lay blame on myself or my organization for payment not received when you can not adhere to simple rules. Did you bother to send your payment details to anyone in that list?
This definitely needs to be quoted. While tournaments that are shoddy in their business ethics or simply just undesirable to play in, should be brought to light.. Genuine tournaments should be recognized and supported, not lumped together with the bad. Players can cause much unnecessary PR damage to good tournaments easily.
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On November 01 2011 02:36 sudo.era wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 02:26 JustPassingBy wrote:
so, what can the community do in this regard? how about an updated list of tournaments who, despite their promises, haven't paid their players yet and an updated list of tournaments who, even though they keep their promise, have unreasonable waiting times (what a "unreasonable" waiting time is, is left for the community to chose)? Don't watch the events that don't pay.
Well, apparently I am doing that already. :-)
Nevertheless, there should be a site where diligent fans of starcraft 2 should be able to read something like this up. At the example of esl, I am amazed at how unfazed a tournament organizer can go by without paying players their prize money.
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On November 01 2011 03:56 Seronei wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 03:53 Teiwaz wrote:On November 01 2011 03:48 Seronei wrote:On November 01 2011 03:47 Teiwaz wrote:On November 01 2011 03:42 fyndor wrote:On November 01 2011 02:08 Joshy.IGN wrote:
IPL 2's grand final aired on August 14th, not even 90 days ago. It amazes me that you think this is acceptable. It amazes me that some people still don't get it that up to 90 days of waiting after the tourney finished is fucking usual... Just because it's usual doesn't mean that it's acceptable. It is acceptable if you come to realize (and accept) how the real world out there (aka the business world) works. There's no double rainbow. Surely it doesn't take 90 days for the paperwork? It's not acceptable to promise money you don't have.
No, but the longer you have the money the more interest you get for it it adds up. Really 3 months is not good but still acceptable.
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On November 01 2011 03:52 IMhaZe wrote:
I'm pretty sure, that the tourney directors are NOT the people to blame. The reason they can't pay there bills is, because the sponsors won't give the promised money in a reasonable time to them.
What i always wanted to know is: How do Tournaments and Leagues generate money and how much :-)
In many cases I'm sure they are to blame. As I stated before, the proper way to run an event like this is to have the accounts receivable set up to pay before the date of the event, and have the money in escrow waiting on the results. They have more than enough time to do this, and the sponsoring companies should be used to that business model, its how the rest of the world works.
To answer your other question, they get money because of the sponsorships, and things like entrance fees for spectators. For example, a tourney with a $5k prize doesnt ONLY collect 5k in sponsorships. They collect money from the sponsors for advertising and product placement etc... and the prize money is deducted from their total revenue. If theyre having problems paying its because of poor planning and management, its not anyone else's fault. (Obviously i'm not talking about cases where they have wrong bank/paypal info or whatever)
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On November 01 2011 03:49 TheBomb wrote:
I actually think this is Blizzards fault. They charge everyone for prize pool over $5000, while at the same time the tournaments barely have money to operate and the players are not getting their hard earned money.
Nice job of supporting e-sports blizzard, more like robbing the small amount of money the players should be getting.
This is why I've written in the related threads so much about this, its like Blizzard is doing everything to stop e-sports and get on the back on it and try to suck it dry, while we have players and even casters not getting payed for months or at all.
I also think the prices will shrink, because while there is a lot of hype the audience for SC2 is not that big. I mean 100k unique viewers is not that much for a high level 100k in prizes tournament over 3 or 4 days.
what are you talking about?
blizzard doesn't charge anything they just get ad revenue
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On November 01 2011 03:56 HappyChris wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 03:45 pbjsandwich wrote:On November 01 2011 03:42 fyndor wrote:On November 01 2011 02:08 Joshy.IGN wrote:
IPL 2's grand final aired on August 14th, not even 90 days ago. It amazes me that you think this is acceptable. lol you apparently have no idea how a lot of this works you're amazed because your view of how things should be don't fit how things are If MLG can pau out there price pool instantly I see no reason why other organisation cant. Can you?
make sure you consider 'where' the money comes from. Where does MLG get their prize money compared to orgs like CSN, NASL and even IGN. Each organization may get their prize pool money from different sources based on the model of their organization.
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On November 01 2011 03:50 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 03:47 chadissilent wrote:On November 01 2011 03:42 fyndor wrote:On November 01 2011 02:08 Joshy.IGN wrote:
IPL 2's grand final aired on August 14th, not even 90 days ago. It amazes me that you think this is acceptable. Do you have ANY experience at all in the business world? 90 days for money to go from sponsor -> organization -> players is acceptable. If both the sponsor and organization have 30 day processing times, that's 2 months assuming the payment begins processing the day the tournament ends. This doesn't include players submitting banking info/filling out forms/etc. hmmm isn't 60 days standard? Well 90 days aint that bad either but more than that is just ridiculous.
30-60 days is standard in the buisness world. That being said, my firm has waited over 2 years for payment from some clients.
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On November 01 2011 03:55 dismiss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 02:08 Joshy.IGN wrote:
Note from IGN: We paid out everyone from IPL season 1, and we are aware that certain players from IPL 2 have not yet received their winnings. IPL 2's grand final aired on August 14th, not even 90 days ago. We have everyone's financial information from IPL 2 and the current word is that checks/Paypal transfers should be ready to go within the week.
One thing about IGN Pro League that people may not consider is that we are not just 1 guy with $1000 laying around that we can just dump in someone's account the moment they win a bo5. IGN is a massive organization that we are just one part of, and we have to adhere to all of the federal regulations that are invoked when dealing with paying thousands of dollars to (as far as the law is concerned) international contractors. We have a finance department that must be satisfied with its paperwork before we can give out money. Not only this, but our players were informed that there would be a wait involved when we collected their payment information.
I'm sorry to hear that ClouD, Darkforce, and others have been waiting a long time for a lot of money, but trust me, IGN Pro League has every intent of paying everyone, even down to translators for online qualifiers, what they are owed. =) I'm sorry if I'm missing something, but shouldn't the payments be prepared in advance? I mean it's not like it's unexpected that you have to pay people out after a live event.  Taking several months for this is, in my opinion, absolutely ridiculous unless their are factors beyond the touranment organiser's control involved (e.g. government regulations).
Have to agree, in a general business sense it's absolutely ridiculous. I think it's a fair comparison to make calling what the players produce during tournaments a product, because well, without the players there's no production at all. Imagine if you sold a product of yours, but you didn't get paid immediately or shortly after and instead several months after. It's mindboggling really.
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On November 01 2011 03:53 Teiwaz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 03:48 Seronei wrote:On November 01 2011 03:47 Teiwaz wrote:On November 01 2011 03:42 fyndor wrote:On November 01 2011 02:08 Joshy.IGN wrote:
IPL 2's grand final aired on August 14th, not even 90 days ago. It amazes me that you think this is acceptable. It amazes me that some people still don't get it that up to 90 days of waiting after the tourney finished is fucking usual... Just because it's usual doesn't mean that it's acceptable. It is acceptable if you come to realize (and accept) how the real world out there (aka the business world) works. There's no double rainbow.
What does that even mean? Business world? The fact is, everything is business. Handling it professionally is what matters. You speak of business world as its a internally joke between you and the persons who agree with you.
Think of it this way. If I payed for a videogame.
But the manufacturer of that game doesnt send it until 3-12 months later. Is that acceptable? no? yes?
the answer is simple. But needs to have different facts to it, for it to be called proffesional. If the manufacturer gave some info on what is going on and why. The answer could very well be yes.
Or think of it like this. You sell cars. One costumer buys it on credit. And you dont get your money in 3-12 months, is that acceptable?
Before posting crap like real world and business world and all of that. You really think you understand how everything works and should work?
As for my self. I own a software company. And If my costumer pays me the money i request for my product, but dont receive the lisence string for up until 1 year later, is that acceptable?
pff
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On November 01 2011 01:32 Mowr wrote:
This is just so unprofessional. TL could do a HUGE service to the players if they set up some "debt" page (or linked to one) where they out tournament and sponsors who dont pay up.
Also, I really don't think major casting personalities should attend tournaments that don't treat their participants well.
That's what I'm thinking. Have a section of TL dedicated to Progamers' finance, where they can keep track of their earnings and which tournaments have/haven't paid. The information can be made public so people can see which tournaments are reneging on their prize money.
Otherwise, i wonder if progamers can file a class action lawsuit against some of these organizations, it's ridiculous for progamers to compete essentially for free giving so much advertising to these companies.
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On November 01 2011 03:56 Seronei wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 03:53 Teiwaz wrote:On November 01 2011 03:48 Seronei wrote:On November 01 2011 03:47 Teiwaz wrote:On November 01 2011 03:42 fyndor wrote:On November 01 2011 02:08 Joshy.IGN wrote:
IPL 2's grand final aired on August 14th, not even 90 days ago. It amazes me that you think this is acceptable. It amazes me that some people still don't get it that up to 90 days of waiting after the tourney finished is fucking usual... Just because it's usual doesn't mean that it's acceptable. It is acceptable if you come to realize (and accept) how the real world out there (aka the business world) works. There's no double rainbow. Surely it doesn't take 90 days for the paperwork? It's not acceptable to promise money you don't have.
I'm sorry to come up with this but...what do you do for a living and how old are you?
Seriously, promising money you don't have (yet) is how the fucking world economy works!
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On November 01 2011 04:00 Mouzone wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 03:55 dismiss wrote:On November 01 2011 02:08 Joshy.IGN wrote:
Note from IGN: We paid out everyone from IPL season 1, and we are aware that certain players from IPL 2 have not yet received their winnings. IPL 2's grand final aired on August 14th, not even 90 days ago. We have everyone's financial information from IPL 2 and the current word is that checks/Paypal transfers should be ready to go within the week.
One thing about IGN Pro League that people may not consider is that we are not just 1 guy with $1000 laying around that we can just dump in someone's account the moment they win a bo5. IGN is a massive organization that we are just one part of, and we have to adhere to all of the federal regulations that are invoked when dealing with paying thousands of dollars to (as far as the law is concerned) international contractors. We have a finance department that must be satisfied with its paperwork before we can give out money. Not only this, but our players were informed that there would be a wait involved when we collected their payment information.
I'm sorry to hear that ClouD, Darkforce, and others have been waiting a long time for a lot of money, but trust me, IGN Pro League has every intent of paying everyone, even down to translators for online qualifiers, what they are owed. =) I'm sorry if I'm missing something, but shouldn't the payments be prepared in advance? I mean it's not like it's unexpected that you have to pay people out after a live event. Taking several months for this is, in my opinion, absolutely ridiculous unless their are factors beyond the touranment organiser's control involved (e.g. government regulations). Have to agree, in a general business sense it's absolutely ridiculous. I think it's a fair comparison to make calling what the players produce during tournaments a product, because well, without the players there's no production at all. Imagine if you sold a product of yours, but you didn't get paid immediately or shortly after and instead several months after. It's mindboggling really.
That's how the vast majority of business transactions work. The idea that a corporate payment would be made like a trip to the grocery store is mindboggling.
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On November 01 2011 03:42 fyndor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 02:08 Joshy.IGN wrote:
IPL 2's grand final aired on August 14th, not even 90 days ago. It amazes me that you think this is acceptable.
78 days or 11 weeks is a long time for a small business to wait for their bills to be paid. The games themselves were played at least month prior to that. Every participant knew their placement - they don't need to wait for their games to broadcast on TV to find out where they came.
Western teams need to properly unionise and squeeze the bad guys out of the market. That way there's also the potential for a common legal fund to chase the bad ones. Say six union players place in the money at a tournament and the 'sponsors aren't paying', it's just one moderate but worthwhile lawsuit that can be covered from everyone's subs rather than six private ones that would never cover costs.
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On November 01 2011 03:06 csn_JohnClark wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 02:55 ThaZenith wrote:
Guys, stop spazzing out over a 3 month pay period. That really isn't that much. The real problem is tournaments that require harassment to pay, or take longer than said to pay out. If they say they'll pay out in 3 months, and pay out in 2 and 1/2 months, leave them alone. >.>
Sounds like most of the NA tournaments are pretty good (IPL, MLG, NASL) but sometimes random mistakes happen and people might not get paid, and it'll be worked out. well said.. and let's hope some of those commenting in this thread can take a deep breath. To clarify something though.. not every business is the same and for those calling for a 30 or 60 day maximum.. you are barking up a big tree. I agree that a 'standard' needs to be set.. (again).. but in the past, that standard was 3-6 months and was happening long before many of you graced the world of esports. Accept this as a starting standard and lets work from there. If putting together a 'new standard' means (as a community) we fight for 60 days.. so be it.. but lets be reasonable in our expectations.
How about no. Just because you guys have been fucking over the participants of your tournaments for a long time doesn't mean its acceptable. Just means you have been doing it for a while now. It doesn't take 3 months to do paperwork. And it REALLY doesn't take 6 months. I can't believe you would even insinuate this is acceptable.
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On November 01 2011 04:00 Mouzone wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 03:55 dismiss wrote:On November 01 2011 02:08 Joshy.IGN wrote:
Note from IGN: We paid out everyone from IPL season 1, and we are aware that certain players from IPL 2 have not yet received their winnings. IPL 2's grand final aired on August 14th, not even 90 days ago. We have everyone's financial information from IPL 2 and the current word is that checks/Paypal transfers should be ready to go within the week.
One thing about IGN Pro League that people may not consider is that we are not just 1 guy with $1000 laying around that we can just dump in someone's account the moment they win a bo5. IGN is a massive organization that we are just one part of, and we have to adhere to all of the federal regulations that are invoked when dealing with paying thousands of dollars to (as far as the law is concerned) international contractors. We have a finance department that must be satisfied with its paperwork before we can give out money. Not only this, but our players were informed that there would be a wait involved when we collected their payment information.
I'm sorry to hear that ClouD, Darkforce, and others have been waiting a long time for a lot of money, but trust me, IGN Pro League has every intent of paying everyone, even down to translators for online qualifiers, what they are owed. =) I'm sorry if I'm missing something, but shouldn't the payments be prepared in advance? I mean it's not like it's unexpected that you have to pay people out after a live event. Taking several months for this is, in my opinion, absolutely ridiculous unless their are factors beyond the touranment organiser's control involved (e.g. government regulations). Have to agree, in a general business sense it's absolutely ridiculous. I think it's a fair comparison to make calling what the players produce during tournaments a product, because well, without the players there's no production at all. Imagine if you sold a product of yours, but you didn't get paid immediately or shortly after and instead several months after. It's mindboggling really.
Thats actually the only reason why esports is a business in the first place(the players). Players should be treated like gold and not like second rate hand me down sweaters. Without the players, why would you watch?
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There should be some way to label tournaments and organizations, hell even single persons, who do not pay the promised prize money. The one thing every tournament wants is publicity and viewers, but if there was some possibility for the community to destroy the credibility of certain tournaments, then hopefully there were far less viewers and high level players attending.
It makes me sick at heart that this happens.
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On November 01 2011 04:02 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 04:00 Mouzone wrote:On November 01 2011 03:55 dismiss wrote:On November 01 2011 02:08 Joshy.IGN wrote:
Note from IGN: We paid out everyone from IPL season 1, and we are aware that certain players from IPL 2 have not yet received their winnings. IPL 2's grand final aired on August 14th, not even 90 days ago. We have everyone's financial information from IPL 2 and the current word is that checks/Paypal transfers should be ready to go within the week.
One thing about IGN Pro League that people may not consider is that we are not just 1 guy with $1000 laying around that we can just dump in someone's account the moment they win a bo5. IGN is a massive organization that we are just one part of, and we have to adhere to all of the federal regulations that are invoked when dealing with paying thousands of dollars to (as far as the law is concerned) international contractors. We have a finance department that must be satisfied with its paperwork before we can give out money. Not only this, but our players were informed that there would be a wait involved when we collected their payment information.
I'm sorry to hear that ClouD, Darkforce, and others have been waiting a long time for a lot of money, but trust me, IGN Pro League has every intent of paying everyone, even down to translators for online qualifiers, what they are owed. =) I'm sorry if I'm missing something, but shouldn't the payments be prepared in advance? I mean it's not like it's unexpected that you have to pay people out after a live event. Taking several months for this is, in my opinion, absolutely ridiculous unless their are factors beyond the touranment organiser's control involved (e.g. government regulations). Have to agree, in a general business sense it's absolutely ridiculous. I think it's a fair comparison to make calling what the players produce during tournaments a product, because well, without the players there's no production at all. Imagine if you sold a product of yours, but you didn't get paid immediately or shortly after and instead several months after. It's mindboggling really. That's how the vast majority of business transactions work. The idea that a corporate payment would be made like a trip to the grocery store is mindboggling.
Sorry but no, small scale business transactions do not take several months to process.
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On November 01 2011 04:00 Mouzone wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 03:55 dismiss wrote:On November 01 2011 02:08 Joshy.IGN wrote:
Note from IGN: We paid out everyone from IPL season 1, and we are aware that certain players from IPL 2 have not yet received their winnings. IPL 2's grand final aired on August 14th, not even 90 days ago. We have everyone's financial information from IPL 2 and the current word is that checks/Paypal transfers should be ready to go within the week.
One thing about IGN Pro League that people may not consider is that we are not just 1 guy with $1000 laying around that we can just dump in someone's account the moment they win a bo5. IGN is a massive organization that we are just one part of, and we have to adhere to all of the federal regulations that are invoked when dealing with paying thousands of dollars to (as far as the law is concerned) international contractors. We have a finance department that must be satisfied with its paperwork before we can give out money. Not only this, but our players were informed that there would be a wait involved when we collected their payment information.
I'm sorry to hear that ClouD, Darkforce, and others have been waiting a long time for a lot of money, but trust me, IGN Pro League has every intent of paying everyone, even down to translators for online qualifiers, what they are owed. =) I'm sorry if I'm missing something, but shouldn't the payments be prepared in advance? I mean it's not like it's unexpected that you have to pay people out after a live event. Taking several months for this is, in my opinion, absolutely ridiculous unless their are factors beyond the touranment organiser's control involved (e.g. government regulations). Have to agree, in a general business sense it's absolutely ridiculous. I think it's a fair comparison to make calling what the players produce during tournaments a product, because well, without the players there's no production at all. Imagine if you sold a product of yours, but you didn't get paid immediately or shortly after and instead several months after. It's mindboggling really.
The business world works on accounts-payable and accounts-receivable. For services, and even product purchases in the business world, there is generally an acceptable billing period. Its how it works... not really the same as you going into a store and buying something.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_30
But these periods should all take place BEFORE the event not after. This is from real-world experience, not just talking out of my ass.
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On November 01 2011 01:17 Thorzain wrote:
The only time such things ever happened to me was with ESL. Every other organization has paid reasonably fast.
ESL really seems like the big problem. A spotlighted article criticizing ESL would be nice.
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EPT
