Prize money in Starcraft 2 - Page 26

Farnsworth

Romania11 Posts

October 31 2011 18:51 GMT

#501

Great Thread Cloud, you sad what you had to say.
We see such big posters about the prize money in tournaments... and yet half of them are lies. As a player you're just hoping that you'l get your money.. that's a shame.
I was in the cloud how fast is sc2 as an e-sport growing, but when I read the thread, It almost came to me to vomit...

Bender

Telcontar

United Kingdom16710 Posts

October 31 2011 18:51 GMT

#502

On November 01 2011 03:45 pbjsandwich wrote:

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lol you apparently have no idea how a lot of this works

you're amazed because your view of how things should be don't fit how things are

Tbh, the very fact that 'within 90 days' has become the marker for 'acceptable period' is very disappointing in itself. Tournaments should secure funding from their sponsors BEFORE the event takes place and distribute the prize money within a month at most. These players earn their living off tournaments. How crazy is it that they're expected to wait 3 months to receive what's due? The industry needs a shake up if you want to attract young talent to the scene. As TB has pointed out already, the current system is way too uncertain & unattractive for young players to fully commit to ESPORTS.

SKC

Brazil18828 Posts

October 31 2011 18:51 GMT

#503

On November 01 2011 03:46 crms wrote:

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Yeah, it's shocking really.

Actual players said that up to 3 months is acceptable, I'm not sure why it's such a shock. The problem is when tournaments don't pay after a year or more, and you don't actually know if you will ever get paid. If it's stated beforehand, with the huge bureoucracy involved, 3 months isn't such a disgrace. Around a month would probally be the best, but sometimes things are just not possible.

vojnik

Macedonia923 Posts

October 31 2011 18:51 GMT

#504

wow this is terrible, i seriously hope you guys get paid, if tournaments do this I as fan will completely stop watching them

IMhaZe

Austria2 Posts

October 31 2011 18:52 GMT

#505

I'm pretty sure, that the tourney directors are NOT the people to blame. The reason they can't pay there bills is, because the sponsors won't give the promised money in a reasonable time to them.

What i always wanted to know is: How do Tournaments and Leagues generate money and how much :-)

Quasimoto3000

United States471 Posts

October 31 2011 18:52 GMT

#506

Here is the honest truth about SC2 viewers. We support players, not tournaments. If there were no tournaments, I would still be watching player streams.

Pros, if you tell us to boycott a tournament, we will do it.

hardythedrummer

United States11 Posts

October 31 2011 18:52 GMT

#507

My gut feelings go two different ways. On the one hand, it is obviously a bad thing that tournaments aren't paying up. This is not acceptable. On the other hand, I feel like teams need to be supporting their players better. It's one thing if a team is really little more then a clan, with no infrastructure or support staff to handle things. But a team with any amount of money should have a manager or agent or some sort of staff handling this sort of thing. Player tells team staff "Hey, I placed X at tournament Y, can you handle getting paid?" and they spend their time tracking down the admins, figuring out the information they need, etc.

I honestly do not know anything about the staffing for any teams other then FXO, TL and EG, and even my knowledge regarding those teams is pretty limited, so I don't know if such a thing is even reasonable to expect for most teams, but my gut feeling is Cloud and such shouldn't have to deal with this at all. Having someone dedicated to making sure you get paid is really common for actors, sports players, singers/bands, etc. Why not eSports?

stormchaser

Canada1009 Posts

October 31 2011 18:52 GMT

#508

So why do players still compete in the ESL? This is what I'm wondering.

Teiwaz

Austria158 Posts

October 31 2011 18:53 GMT

#509

On November 01 2011 03:48 Seronei wrote:

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Just because it's usual doesn't mean that it's acceptable.

It is acceptable if you come to realize (and accept) how the real world out there (aka the business world) works. There's no double rainbow.

AndersR.

Denmark16 Posts

October 31 2011 18:53 GMT

#510

On November 01 2011 01:43 GTR wrote:
ESL is probably the worst organisation out of the whole lot. As far as I am aware, I am pretty sure IdrA still hasn't been paid his EPS prize money from Brood War.

could very well be true, the longest time i've heard of is the Polish CS 1.6 team which they still owe money for winning IEM Global Finals '07.

Klondikebar

United States2227 Posts

October 31 2011 18:54 GMT

#511

On November 01 2011 03:52 Quasimoto3000 wrote:
Here is the honest truth about SC2 viewers. We support players, not tournaments. If there were no tournaments, I would still be watching player streams.

Pros, if you tell us to boycott a tournament, we will do it.

Yes, let's start a giant pissing contest in esports so that the people who are supposed to be working together have a hostile and adversarial relationship.

I love my players.
I love my tournaments.
I want everyone to be happy. And I don't think esports is a zero sum game so I don't think it's an unreasonable desire.

DarKFoRcE

Germany1215 Posts

October 31 2011 18:54 GMT

#512

On November 01 2011 03:17 polarfluKe wrote:

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I did PM you regarding this, but I feel you have not played your part in the discussion and I have the right to say what I must say now.

How exactly do you expect us to pay you? Did you bother to send me your payment details before I had to PM you earlier for them? Did you even read the tournament rules that are in place?

Here is an excerpt from our Rules, updated on 13/10/2011:

Payments (Added 13-10-2011)

South African players must submit their banking details from their registered e-mail address
Non South African players must submit their PayPal details from their registered e-mail address
All prizes are paid in ZAR and thus the estimated USD value may be different to that stated on the tournament page due to currency fluctuations
Players must submit their payment details within 2(two) weeks of the end of a tournament to receive their payment else the prize will be forfeit
Once the 2(two) week period is over, all payments will be processed

I did tell you after reading your OP that I would still make your payment even though you had failed to adhere to the rules of the tournament.

This is absolutely ridiculous that you are including tournaments from 2 weeks ago; while I do support talking up about tournaments and hosts that have an extremely long wait time, you are causing damage to guys like me who do actually pay up. I work my ass off to host monthly tournaments with good prize pools. I spend hours upon hours in meetings, trying to get more money into my tournaments and with one or two posts you are able to wrongfully ruin a reputation my organization has earned.

PolarfluKe has been running since May 2010 and we have run 18 tournaments for Starcraft II. Every tournament is paid up in full except for the tournament we hosted 2 weeks ago(15-16 October). If you had bothered to read the rules regarding payments (which I was forced to add because it takes players too long to send their payment details), I explicitly state how the payment structure works now.

Do not lay blame on myself or my organization for payment not received when you can not adhere to simple rules.

Did you bother to send your payment details to anyone in that list?

hi, sorry i removed you from the list in my initial post but forgot to do so in the other one.

xSixGeneralHan

United States528 Posts

October 31 2011 18:54 GMT

#513

On November 01 2011 03:40 Diamond wrote:

Show nested quote +

On November 01 2011 03:37 VPGeneralHans wrote:

On November 01 2011 03:26 Diamond wrote:

On November 01 2011 03:24 VPGeneralHans wrote:

On November 01 2011 03:15 Diamond wrote:

On November 01 2011 03:12 Dr_Jones wrote:

On November 01 2011 03:05 ReachTheSky wrote:

On November 01 2011 03:02 Dr_Jones wrote:
Am I completely bonkers for thinking that this is a managerial issue, that should be dealt with by the team managers for the players involved? It just seems odd that it isnt a bit more professional than this :/

Yes you are completely bonkers

. I think what would be a bit more professional is organizations paying money out within reasonable timeframes.

I obviously agree with that, but as Carmac had been saying they were providing a 3 month delay for most of their tournaments. I guess this is to allow enough time to deal with all the paperwork involved with moving money around internationally (as Joshy.IGN pointed out, some countries are quite restrictive about such thing *cough The US cough*)

But, why doesn't the player talk to the team manager, who then talks to the tournament manager, and resolve the issue this way? Obviously doesn't work with every small daily online cups, but for the the big name organised ones this would seem a minimum requirement?

Again, I might be bonkers for expecting it, but it just seem like this would be way more professional (than posting on TL.net). I hope we reach that stage at one point in eSports, because that's when it becomes truly credible in my view

Just throwing this out there, most Non-Korean team managers actually do very little managing. I think I have dealt with one foreign team manager ever (Naz with Liquid, who is awesome) in all my time doing foreign events. I know Scoots is active with EG but most other team managers never would get involved in something like this.

Why? The hell if I know, but it seems to be an issue all in itself.

In the case of tournament winnings etc I think team managers should support their players and assist to give advice KR apply pressure but I don't think they should be in charge of collecting players prize money. Seems a wee bit intrusive and if I was a player I'd rather want to handle it myself. The less layers of communication you have to go through from player to person in charge is better

Why on earth should professional players be worrying about things like collecting money? There job is to play, it's the managers job to manage. Crazy shit I know...

You want me sending in private forms with your tax records and bank details o.o
Imagine if you were a USA player, I'd need to know your social security number to do anything that deals with companies.

If a player asks me to help them, I will help them of course. It's just not at a stage with real sports were they have lawyers and accountants bound by law to be private with a clients details.

They are part of your org, I would expect they would trust you with that info. When I get a new job and my employer asks me for my SS card and shit I don't go "NO! I DON'T TRUST YOU! I will deal with the payroll company myself!"

To answer your question, if I was a pro player on a pro team I would sure as shit want a manager doing his job.

It's not like it's never been done, Korean managers actually do this. They sign up players for tournies, personally come online when any dispute happens and handle it personally, and if there is an issue with a payment, you better believe the manager will come asking.

I'm not saying you are entirely wrong, but you insinuate that no one helps players with disputes, or helps to sign up players for tournaments etc in the foreign scene. I know I've helped a player collect money and push who we need to push, I'm sure I'm not the only one. In regards to being the face to a tournament and sending in all the forms on behalf of a player, while that occurs in Korea, it just might not be viable yet here. I agree, I don't want a player wasting time on things like that, but it's not entirely possible yet.

Yes, if you are an organization with LLC etc, you would hope a player would trust the organization with some certain private details.

I think this is sort of a silly disagreement because we agree on the ideals but we disagree on how possible they are right this second. Western esports probably needs to develop a little bit more in terms of player and organization roles.

Thanks for the debate!

TheToast

United States4808 Posts

October 31 2011 18:55 GMT

#514

On November 01 2011 03:32 Serejai wrote:

Show nested quote +

Quoting this because too many people are simply jumping on the bandwagon without having both sides of the story.

There's no doubt in my mind that some of these instances are due to players failing to submit the required information and/or follow set proceedures. However, if the players have submitted their payment information on time and reliable contact information, it is up to the tournament host to ensure they get their money. If some requirements have not been completed or followed, it is again up to the tournament host to at the very least inform then as to why they have not (or will not) get their winnings.

While that may suck for smaller hosts, it's part of the job of organizing a tournament. If you can't handle that type of administration, you have no business hosting a tournament.

Gattaca.usa

131 Posts

October 31 2011 18:55 GMT

#515

its like winning prize money in SC2 is like submitting a rebate!

they always say "its coming" or "you didn't fill it out right" etc.

so sad =(.

crms

United States11933 Posts

October 31 2011 18:55 GMT

#516

On November 01 2011 03:51 SKC wrote:

Show nested quote +

players think 3 months is acceptable because so many tournaments are EVEN WORSE, the fact that 90 days is thought of as 'well done' is a joke.

dismiss

United Kingdom3341 Posts

October 31 2011 18:55 GMT

#517

On November 01 2011 02:08 Joshy.IGN wrote:
Note from IGN: We paid out everyone from IPL season 1, and we are aware that certain players from IPL 2 have not yet received their winnings. IPL 2's grand final aired on August 14th, not even 90 days ago. We have everyone's financial information from IPL 2 and the current word is that checks/Paypal transfers should be ready to go within the week.

One thing about IGN Pro League that people may not consider is that we are not just 1 guy with $1000 laying around that we can just dump in someone's account the moment they win a bo5. IGN is a massive organization that we are just one part of, and we have to adhere to all of the federal regulations that are invoked when dealing with paying thousands of dollars to (as far as the law is concerned) international contractors. We have a finance department that must be satisfied with its paperwork before we can give out money. Not only this, but our players were informed that there would be a wait involved when we collected their payment information.

I'm sorry to hear that ClouD, Darkforce, and others have been waiting a long time for a lot of money, but trust me, IGN Pro League has every intent of paying everyone, even down to translators for online qualifiers, what they are owed. =)

I'm sorry if I'm missing something, but shouldn't the payments be prepared in advance? I mean it's not like it's unexpected that you have to pay people out after a live event.

Taking several months for this is, in my opinion, absolutely ridiculous unless their are factors beyond the touranment organiser's control involved (e.g. government regulations).