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On October 26 2011 13:00 doko100 wrote:
So blizzard release their ladder statistics where protoss has a 54% win ratio against terran and then they nerf terran and buff protoss? I don't understand. It's already so hard to beat protoss and now they make it even harder, it's even statistically proven that outside of GSL protoss is the strongest race. If you don't believe me just check the ladder stats or sc2ranks
Not true, at tournament level, which is far more meaningful than ladder, terran has been ahead of the other two races since the game came out. The stats have been posted so many times here on teamliquid I'm surprised you haven't seen them.
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I don't think the upgrades for ground armor and attack makes a lot of difference since toss is hustling during that time to try to spend money as fast as they can anyways. TvP should still be the same since the deathball is all a clump, but against zerg poster is right..infestors trying to clump still makes a really big room to try to get them all lol
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On October 26 2011 13:05 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 13:00 doko100 wrote:
So blizzard release their ladder statistics where protoss has a 54% win ratio against terran and then they nerf terran and buff protoss? I don't understand. It's already so hard to beat protoss and now they make it even harder, it's even statistically proven that outside of GSL protoss is the strongest race. If you don't believe me just check the ladder stats or sc2ranks Not true, at tournament level, which is far more meaningful than ladder, terran has been ahead of the other two races since the game came out. The stats have been posted so many times here on teamliquid I'm surprised you haven't seen them.
then look at the ladder, in master league protoss is dominating, in silver-masters terran used to be the most played race and now it's by far the least played race, I know so many other master terran who quit the game because the game is getting harder and harder for us every patch and the TvP matchup already favor protoss on the ladder and they keep making it easier.
yes i understand that they are balancing for the absolute top level, but the general trend is that more and more terran players quit the game because for us non-pro terrans the game is getting harder and harder after every patch and blizzard doesn't even stop. they lost so many terran players already. the game is just incredibly hard for non top level terrans and im not saying they shouldn't be balancing for the top level, but they could at least make protoss harder to play on master level, because right now every master league terran has so much trouble with tvp. it's statistically proven and its an essential problem, terran is the least played race in silver-masters and we are playing the terran expansion, wait for the zerg and protoss expansion and almost nobody is going to play terran anymore outside of korea.
they also need to do something for the masses, for us "noob" master league terrans the game isnt fun anymore.
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On October 26 2011 06:30 SeaSwift wrote:
Loving these changes. Blizzard DO listen to the community!
I reckon this is mostly to solve PvT - cheaper upgrades won't make a massive difference in PvZ, whereas in PvT the 2 Forge mass upgrade style could really do with this buff. And obviously the EMP nerf is to stop blanket EMPs being so effective vs Protoss.
I totally agree, i was hoping for this :D so im glad!
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The protoss buffs I did not see coming but think they are a good idea. An of course I gotta love that they finally are nerfing ghost. Solid patch in my opinion.
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On October 26 2011 13:11 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 13:05 tomatriedes wrote:On October 26 2011 13:00 doko100 wrote:
So blizzard release their ladder statistics where protoss has a 54% win ratio against terran and then they nerf terran and buff protoss? I don't understand. It's already so hard to beat protoss and now they make it even harder, it's even statistically proven that outside of GSL protoss is the strongest race. If you don't believe me just check the ladder stats or sc2ranks Not true, at tournament level, which is far more meaningful than ladder, terran has been ahead of the other two races since the game came out. The stats have been posted so many times here on teamliquid I'm surprised you haven't seen them. then look at the ladder, in master league protoss is dominating, in silver-masters terran used to be the most played race and now it's by far the least played race, I know so many other master terran who quit the game because the game is getting harder and harder for us every patch and the TvP matchup already favor protoss on the ladder and they keep making it easier. yes i understand that they are balancing for the absolute top level, but the general trend is that more and more terran players quit the game because for us non-pro terrans the game is getting harder and harder after every patch and blizzard doesn't even stop. they lost so many terran players already. the game is just incredibly hard for non top level terrans and im not saying they shouldn't be balancing for the top level, but they could at least make protoss harder to play on master level, because right now every master league terran has so much trouble with tvp. it's statistically proven and its an essential problem, terran is the least played race in silver-masters and we are playing the terran expansion, wait for the zerg and protoss expansion and almost nobody is going to play terran anymore outside of korea. they also need to do something for the masses, for us "noob" master league terrans the game isnt fun anymore.
Hey could we get a source for that?
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On October 26 2011 06:30 SeaSwift wrote:
Loving these changes. Blizzard DO listen to the community!
I reckon this is mostly to solve PvT - cheaper upgrades won't make a massive difference in PvZ, whereas in PvT the 2 Forge mass upgrade style could really do with this buff. And obviously the EMP nerf is to stop blanket EMPs being so effective vs Protoss.
well, the balance could either make EMP smaller radius, or make storm do instantaneous damage. (templar cost more than ghost, have no intrinsic attack, less hp than ghost, get sniped by ghost, storm does damage over time instead of instantaneous). the way i see it, templar and ghost are finally equal now. (templar did get the kaydarian amulet nerf, so ever since that happened, honestly, i would rather pay 200 gas for a templar with kaydarian amulet than to pay 150 gas for a templar without)
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On October 26 2011 13:11 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 13:05 tomatriedes wrote:On October 26 2011 13:00 doko100 wrote:
So blizzard release their ladder statistics where protoss has a 54% win ratio against terran and then they nerf terran and buff protoss? I don't understand. It's already so hard to beat protoss and now they make it even harder, it's even statistically proven that outside of GSL protoss is the strongest race. If you don't believe me just check the ladder stats or sc2ranks Not true, at tournament level, which is far more meaningful than ladder, terran has been ahead of the other two races since the game came out. The stats have been posted so many times here on teamliquid I'm surprised you haven't seen them. then look at the ladder, in master league protoss is dominating, in silver-masters terran used to be the most played race and now it's by far the least played race, I know so many other master terran who quit the game because the game is getting harder and harder for us every patch and the TvP matchup already favor protoss on the ladder and they keep making it easier. yes i understand that they are balancing for the absolute top level, but the general trend is that more and more terran players quit the game because for us non-pro terrans the game is getting harder and harder after every patch and blizzard doesn't even stop. they lost so many terran players already. the game is just incredibly hard for non top level terrans and im not saying they shouldn't be balancing for the top level, but they could at least make protoss harder to play on master level, because right now every master league terran has so much trouble with tvp. it's statistically proven and its an essential problem, terran is the least played race in silver-masters and we are playing the terran expansion, wait for the zerg and protoss expansion and almost nobody is going to play terran anymore outside of korea. they also need to do something for the masses, for us "noob" master league terrans the game isnt fun anymore.
I agree.
I don't see why they need it easier for protoss to get 3-3. It is already so hard for terran to keep up.
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I understand the shield upgrade cost buff, no one gets that. But the others? And so miniscule of a cost change for them? Just plain odd.
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On October 26 2011 13:18 pewpew444 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 13:11 doko100 wrote:On October 26 2011 13:05 tomatriedes wrote:On October 26 2011 13:00 doko100 wrote:
So blizzard release their ladder statistics where protoss has a 54% win ratio against terran and then they nerf terran and buff protoss? I don't understand. It's already so hard to beat protoss and now they make it even harder, it's even statistically proven that outside of GSL protoss is the strongest race. If you don't believe me just check the ladder stats or sc2ranks Not true, at tournament level, which is far more meaningful than ladder, terran has been ahead of the other two races since the game came out. The stats have been posted so many times here on teamliquid I'm surprised you haven't seen them. then look at the ladder, in master league protoss is dominating, in silver-masters terran used to be the most played race and now it's by far the least played race, I know so many other master terran who quit the game because the game is getting harder and harder for us every patch and the TvP matchup already favor protoss on the ladder and they keep making it easier. yes i understand that they are balancing for the absolute top level, but the general trend is that more and more terran players quit the game because for us non-pro terrans the game is getting harder and harder after every patch and blizzard doesn't even stop. they lost so many terran players already. the game is just incredibly hard for non top level terrans and im not saying they shouldn't be balancing for the top level, but they could at least make protoss harder to play on master level, because right now every master league terran has so much trouble with tvp. it's statistically proven and its an essential problem, terran is the least played race in silver-masters and we are playing the terran expansion, wait for the zerg and protoss expansion and almost nobody is going to play terran anymore outside of korea. they also need to do something for the masses, for us "noob" master league terrans the game isnt fun anymore. Hey could we get a source for that?
the numbers were on the blizzard hp a few weeks ago or you could just check sc2ranks.com for player numbers aswell. sry im too lazy to search for that right now, but it was 54% in favor of protoss (in a system that forces a 50% win rate that's actually a lot)
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Whoa whoa whoa someone at the blizzard balancing team is clearly a secret member of the sad zealot fanclub ;P
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They can't balance a game around lower levels of play. Terran in Silver-Masters in NA can still improve significantly, meanwhile there's only so much top Protoss in Korea can do. They need the help, everyone here just needs to play better.
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EMP nerf was really necessary. The upgrade costs? Not sure how much it will matter, since I think build time is more important for upgrades than the cost, but every little bit counts I suppose. Buy 3 upgrades, get a Stalker for free!
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I'm not a big fan of making blanket protoss upgrades cheaper. Like, it's nice, i'll take it, but I didn't want it. Shields should be cheaper, absolutely. The others? Leave them where they were. Chrono already makes it easy enough to pump upgrades.
EMP is nice, but I still don't know if it solves the issue. Blizzard is still pushing the "make T cast more EMPs" line, and that's really kind of self-defeating.
There will still be pro Terrans who can blanket EMP, and TvP lategame is now (unnecessarily?) harder at low-level. The issue hasn't been solved at all. It happened when the energy strip was cut to 100, it'll happen with this.
That said, the Terran tears right now are kind of hilarious. I'm completely floored that people can claim PvT is actually P favoured.
Also complete lol that shields 3 used to be 400/400. I don't think I've once got that far while paying attention, so I never knew, but holy crap.
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So now Terran just has to get a few more of their best units in order to instantly deal thousands of damage to protoss armies?
I see what Blizzard is trying to do, but Painuser said on SotG that terrans would just have to get more ghosts... which they're doing anyway. This will make a big difference mid-game, but shouldn't really stop the problem of blanket emp's in late game, maxed vs maxed battles.
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On October 26 2011 13:11 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 13:05 tomatriedes wrote:On October 26 2011 13:00 doko100 wrote:
So blizzard release their ladder statistics where protoss has a 54% win ratio against terran and then they nerf terran and buff protoss? I don't understand. It's already so hard to beat protoss and now they make it even harder, it's even statistically proven that outside of GSL protoss is the strongest race. If you don't believe me just check the ladder stats or sc2ranks Not true, at tournament level, which is far more meaningful than ladder, terran has been ahead of the other two races since the game came out. The stats have been posted so many times here on teamliquid I'm surprised you haven't seen them. then look at the ladder, in master league protoss is dominating, in silver-masters terran used to be the most played race and now it's by far the least played race, I know so many other master terran who quit the game because the game is getting harder and harder for us every patch and the TvP matchup already favor protoss on the ladder and they keep making it easier. yes i understand that they are balancing for the absolute top level, but the general trend is that more and more terran players quit the game because for us non-pro terrans the game is getting harder and harder after every patch and blizzard doesn't even stop. they lost so many terran players already. the game is just incredibly hard for non top level terrans and im not saying they shouldn't be balancing for the top level, but they could at least make protoss harder to play on master level, because right now every master league terran has so much trouble with tvp. it's statistically proven and its an essential problem, terran is the least played race in silver-masters and we are playing the terran expansion, wait for the zerg and protoss expansion and almost nobody is going to play terran anymore outside of korea. they also need to do something for the masses, for us "noob" master league terrans the game isnt fun anymore.
You talk about that ONE DAY win rations blizzard showed? Yeah, good to go, maybe all those terrans get tired of what once where Zerg and Protoss situation in XvT. Patch is fine.
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On October 26 2011 13:13 Ajukrejzi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 06:30 SeaSwift wrote:
Loving these changes. Blizzard DO listen to the community!
I reckon this is mostly to solve PvT - cheaper upgrades won't make a massive difference in PvZ, whereas in PvT the 2 Forge mass upgrade style could really do with this buff. And obviously the EMP nerf is to stop blanket EMPs being so effective vs Protoss. I totally agree, i was hoping for this :D so im glad!
The Forge upgrade price reduction isn't a huge deal. An extra 150/150 when you're on 3-4 base isn't going to be game changing. It's a really random change, and Tyler sounds pretty correct on this one on SOTG where he said that Blizzard says that Protoss just is weak but can't pinpoint something, so Blizz decided a very general buff.
The EMP nerf was much needed imo. I think getting a few more Ghosts will offset this, but I'm sure Terran players who rely on those oversized EMPs too much to win games are going to be losing more often when they realize they didn't EMP all the High Templars.
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Shield upgrade cost buff was definitely a good choice, no one got them in BW (though mostly because of how they get full damage from every type).
Not sure about the attack and armor upgrades, perhaps they should look into air upgrades instead.
Also, though it isn't in for the best to balance ONLY for the top level, but I'd say that the balance at the top is definitely more important than the lower skill levels.
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EPT
