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On October 26 2011 12:04 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 11:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 26 2011 11:37 The Final Boss wrote:On October 26 2011 11:36 iLike413 wrote:On October 26 2011 11:30 The Final Boss wrote:On October 26 2011 11:25 ImmortalTofu wrote:On October 26 2011 11:22 The Final Boss wrote:
Now, for all the people talking about "Name a good Korean Protoss" or "Name a good Foreign Terran," I want everybody to try and name something for me. A Macro-Oriented Korean Protoss.
As far as Terrans go, you have players like TOP, TheStC, or Jjakji who consistently go for macro games. I can't think of a Korean Protoss player who looks for macro games often times in PvT, as they usually wind up doing some sort of timing attack, whether it is 1, 2, and very rarely 3 bases. The problem isn't lack of skill, but lack of depth in the play. Korean Protoss players are constantly aggressive--or, at the very least they are overly predictable. Puzzle, and he got rolled pretty much every single time in PvT everytime due to EMP lategame. MC as well, after his GSL March win, and had alot of success against against Terran, with Puma and Bomber. MC does Timing attacks in almost every game he plays. He is far from a Macro-Protoss. And Puzzle's PvT has never really impressed me. Maybe it's because he beat MMA with Dark Templar back in Code A and still almost managed to lose those games due to poor control and macro, but I just don't think he really understands the match-ups that well. But regardless, congrats on naming a single Korean Macro Protoss. Anyone who says "show me a macro protoss herp derp" doesn't really understand the game.... In late game situations terran has the ability to have a much more massive army than toss because they are running off of almost purely mules.. thats at least 30+ extra supply in army comp. Toss have always relied on timing pushes because they are the weakest macro race... You know, about a year ago people were saying that Terran couldn't compete in the late game and that's why you had BitByBit-type players going all-in game after game after game. EDIT: Also, really late game can't Protoss just build a strong Gateway army in approimately 5 seconds, and then with Chronoboost you can then supercharge all of your Gateways and create an even bigger army in no time at all? You had BitByBit going all-in and then he got weeded out and we never heard from him again. Yeah Terrans *totally* couldn't keep up with anyone. Or you could look at the Top Four for each GSL  That's exactly what he was saying, you agreed with him. He was saying that a while ago, every Terran player was complaining that they had to all-in and that big maps would be disaster for them because they can't win in a long game, but then they learned to play better and are still raping everyone.
Mmm.. I don't recall people complaining that the only thing that Terran could do is all-in. More like the opposite, people were complaining that they kept all-ining because it was such a high-risk/high-reward strategy when Protoss couldn't figure it out. There was a lot of money on the line so people did whatever it took to win the game, regardless of it's "cheesyness".
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I don't really mind these changes(I play Terran). But what annoys me is that I KNOW that people will still complain about Terran being OP every time a Terran wins a tournament.
And while I think it's good that Blizzard are listening to the community, they sometimes do it too much, it's the same in all blizzard games. When they have something that is slightly better, they nerf it down to a sack of shit. And when something is slightly worse then the other races they buff it to infinity. I really hope this isn't going to be the case this time.
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On October 26 2011 12:08 bLo0d wrote:
Protoss forge upgrades are supposed to cost more than evo and ebay upgrades becaues forge upgrades simply apply to more units. Ebay ups apply to 4 units. Evo ups apply to 3 units, and even then 2 lines of upgrades seperate into melee and range. Forge ups apply to every unit except stargate units.
Different races are different. The question is if it is balanced in the big picture not if upgrades are the same cost per unit affected.
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On October 26 2011 12:06 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 12:01 cunningstunt wrote:On October 26 2011 11:54 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On October 26 2011 11:47 The Final Boss wrote:On October 26 2011 11:43 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On October 26 2011 11:38 locant wrote:On October 26 2011 11:24 lee365 wrote:
Well, after this patch it seems I'm going to all in every Protoss I play. If I can barely win a normal game now, after this patch I'm doomed. This. I played a tvp yesterday were I was up a base the whole game, up in upgrades, had perfect emp and still got rolled. Im either going to 6 rax, go back to the 1/1/1 or switch to protoss as this is horrible. I feel sorry for zergs now as they were already having a hard time Besides the fact that your post is hilarious bs, you want to switch from the strongest race to the weakest race? Or are you in Bronze-Silver where Protoss is actually the best? I'm a High Diamond Terran and to prove my friend wrong I practiced Protoss for a weekend and was able to play +50% winrate on my ladder account for about 15 games or so. Personally I thought it was pretty easy to switch to Protoss, and I barely lost in the late game (which happens to be what this patch is targeting to make easier). If the guy works on it I'm sure that he can play Protoss too without too much difficulty (now Zerg, I don't even want to try playing that, haha). Yo dawg, we heard you and locant like making up bullshit stories. You probably lost every game and nerdraged like crazy. Even if I switch to the master race Terran today, I highly doubt I'd be winning most of my games in Masters league. Please tell your silly stories to little kids that will fall for it. Sorry, but the stats say that Protoss is by far the weakest race, especially at Masters / GM / pro level, and suffer still in Diamond and Plat. If Protoss was anywhere near as good as you imply, there would be 20 Protoss in Code S, not 20 Terrans. I'll tell you a story that's actually true. Friend of mine was stuck in Gold as Protoss. Played everyday, couldn't get anywhere. He switches to Zerg, and within 1.5 months, he became Diamond. In another month or 2, he's Masters. And Zerg isn't even as powerful as Terran either. That's just the shitty state of Toss. lol Making up hilarious myths isn't going to get you laid bud, so I don't see why you try . People like you make me want to cry... the literary and physical mind of a total dick. Calling someone out for making up a ridiculously false story is being a dick? I fail to see how that correlates. Are you the kind of guy who like kolant says absolutely absurd things and claims them to be true, and then when someone doesn't believe you, you start raging and name calling? I'm just trying to get where you're coming from, because going by your logic, saying someone telling a story of how he rode a falcon and backflipped onto the Great Pyramid and jet skiied across the Atlantic ocean is lying, is being a dick. What?
You dare accuse me of lying?
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On October 26 2011 12:19 Jackle wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 12:04 Whitewing wrote:On October 26 2011 11:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 26 2011 11:37 The Final Boss wrote:On October 26 2011 11:36 iLike413 wrote:On October 26 2011 11:30 The Final Boss wrote:On October 26 2011 11:25 ImmortalTofu wrote:On October 26 2011 11:22 The Final Boss wrote:
Now, for all the people talking about "Name a good Korean Protoss" or "Name a good Foreign Terran," I want everybody to try and name something for me. A Macro-Oriented Korean Protoss.
As far as Terrans go, you have players like TOP, TheStC, or Jjakji who consistently go for macro games. I can't think of a Korean Protoss player who looks for macro games often times in PvT, as they usually wind up doing some sort of timing attack, whether it is 1, 2, and very rarely 3 bases. The problem isn't lack of skill, but lack of depth in the play. Korean Protoss players are constantly aggressive--or, at the very least they are overly predictable. Puzzle, and he got rolled pretty much every single time in PvT everytime due to EMP lategame. MC as well, after his GSL March win, and had alot of success against against Terran, with Puma and Bomber. MC does Timing attacks in almost every game he plays. He is far from a Macro-Protoss. And Puzzle's PvT has never really impressed me. Maybe it's because he beat MMA with Dark Templar back in Code A and still almost managed to lose those games due to poor control and macro, but I just don't think he really understands the match-ups that well. But regardless, congrats on naming a single Korean Macro Protoss. Anyone who says "show me a macro protoss herp derp" doesn't really understand the game.... In late game situations terran has the ability to have a much more massive army than toss because they are running off of almost purely mules.. thats at least 30+ extra supply in army comp. Toss have always relied on timing pushes because they are the weakest macro race... You know, about a year ago people were saying that Terran couldn't compete in the late game and that's why you had BitByBit-type players going all-in game after game after game. EDIT: Also, really late game can't Protoss just build a strong Gateway army in approimately 5 seconds, and then with Chronoboost you can then supercharge all of your Gateways and create an even bigger army in no time at all? You had BitByBit going all-in and then he got weeded out and we never heard from him again. Yeah Terrans *totally* couldn't keep up with anyone. Or you could look at the Top Four for each GSL That's exactly what he was saying, you agreed with him. He was saying that a while ago, every Terran player was complaining that they had to all-in and that big maps would be disaster for them because they can't win in a long game, but then they learned to play better and are still raping everyone. Mmm.. I don't recall people complaining that the only thing that Terran could do is all-in. More like the opposite, people were complaining that they kept all-ining because it was such a high-risk/high-reward strategy when Protoss couldn't figure it out. There was a lot of money on the line so people did whatever it took to win the game, regardless of it's "cheesyness".
Well, I recall it. Jinro was lauded as one of the first real macro Terrans on the highest level.
According to Idra, that's why Jinro had such success - because he was doing something people didn't know how to deal with, and when other terrans caught up he was left behind. That's just what Idra thinks, of course.
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Personally I think instead of changing EMP radius, make it a 200/200 research with a long research time (100sec?) so its not as simple to tech switch to ghosts.
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On October 26 2011 12:25 Talros wrote:
Personally I think instead of changing EMP radius, make it a 200/200 research with a long research time (100sec?) so its not as simple to tech switch to ghosts.
I think the problems lies in the late game engagement, so i don't think the cost and build time change would affect anything.
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On October 26 2011 12:27 brachester wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 12:25 Talros wrote:
Personally I think instead of changing EMP radius, make it a 200/200 research with a long research time (100sec?) so its not as simple to tech switch to ghosts. I think the problems lies in the late game engagement, so i don't think the cost and build time change would affect anything.
They just want to see more ravens. :D.
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Yay cheaper upgrades! Yay EMP nerf!
Not sure how this is going to change the other match ups but I know now that EMP will be easier to deal with. If they implement these changes of course...
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On October 26 2011 12:24 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 12:19 Jackle wrote:On October 26 2011 12:04 Whitewing wrote:On October 26 2011 11:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 26 2011 11:37 The Final Boss wrote:On October 26 2011 11:36 iLike413 wrote:On October 26 2011 11:30 The Final Boss wrote:On October 26 2011 11:25 ImmortalTofu wrote:On October 26 2011 11:22 The Final Boss wrote:
Now, for all the people talking about "Name a good Korean Protoss" or "Name a good Foreign Terran," I want everybody to try and name something for me. A Macro-Oriented Korean Protoss.
As far as Terrans go, you have players like TOP, TheStC, or Jjakji who consistently go for macro games. I can't think of a Korean Protoss player who looks for macro games often times in PvT, as they usually wind up doing some sort of timing attack, whether it is 1, 2, and very rarely 3 bases. The problem isn't lack of skill, but lack of depth in the play. Korean Protoss players are constantly aggressive--or, at the very least they are overly predictable. Puzzle, and he got rolled pretty much every single time in PvT everytime due to EMP lategame. MC as well, after his GSL March win, and had alot of success against against Terran, with Puma and Bomber. MC does Timing attacks in almost every game he plays. He is far from a Macro-Protoss. And Puzzle's PvT has never really impressed me. Maybe it's because he beat MMA with Dark Templar back in Code A and still almost managed to lose those games due to poor control and macro, but I just don't think he really understands the match-ups that well. But regardless, congrats on naming a single Korean Macro Protoss. Anyone who says "show me a macro protoss herp derp" doesn't really understand the game.... In late game situations terran has the ability to have a much more massive army than toss because they are running off of almost purely mules.. thats at least 30+ extra supply in army comp. Toss have always relied on timing pushes because they are the weakest macro race... You know, about a year ago people were saying that Terran couldn't compete in the late game and that's why you had BitByBit-type players going all-in game after game after game. EDIT: Also, really late game can't Protoss just build a strong Gateway army in approimately 5 seconds, and then with Chronoboost you can then supercharge all of your Gateways and create an even bigger army in no time at all? You had BitByBit going all-in and then he got weeded out and we never heard from him again. Yeah Terrans *totally* couldn't keep up with anyone. Or you could look at the Top Four for each GSL That's exactly what he was saying, you agreed with him. He was saying that a while ago, every Terran player was complaining that they had to all-in and that big maps would be disaster for them because they can't win in a long game, but then they learned to play better and are still raping everyone. Mmm.. I don't recall people complaining that the only thing that Terran could do is all-in. More like the opposite, people were complaining that they kept all-ining because it was such a high-risk/high-reward strategy when Protoss couldn't figure it out. There was a lot of money on the line so people did whatever it took to win the game, regardless of it's "cheesyness". Well, I recall it. Jinro was lauded as one of the first real macro Terrans on the highest level. According to Idra, that's why Jinro had such success - because he was doing something people didn't know how to deal with, and when other terrans caught up he was left behind. That's just what Idra thinks, of course.
Yeah, Jinro is a great player, but the real reason that he made it to Ro4 consecutively was the fact that he was one of the few Macro Terrans. And as far as MarineKing (or FoxeR) being a "macro-Terran" back then, all I can say is:
+ Show Spoiler +HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHHA, what a joke.
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I really don't get this. A lot of Terrans are having a tough time with upgraded speelots late game and speedlots are super hard to hit with EMPs. I can't think of a game where I won because of good emps, but I can think of a few where I lost partly because protoss had 3-3 before I could even get 2-2.
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On October 26 2011 12:25 Talros wrote:
Personally I think instead of changing EMP radius, make it a 200/200 research with a long research time (100sec?) so its not as simple to tech switch to ghosts.
I wonder if this would solve any PvT problems, or just tell the Terrans that they should turtle inside their base for 100 seconds longer (massing up energy for EMP and still pumping out more bio units) before pushing out.
Sure, the push might not come as quickly, but the carpet EMPS in the late game are what do me in, personally. Any non-ghost Terran pressure could still be applied early anyway.
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could've added hydralisk speed upgrade already. EMP should've been nerfed ages ago.
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On October 26 2011 12:06 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 12:01 cunningstunt wrote:On October 26 2011 11:54 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On October 26 2011 11:47 The Final Boss wrote:On October 26 2011 11:43 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:On October 26 2011 11:38 locant wrote:On October 26 2011 11:24 lee365 wrote:
Well, after this patch it seems I'm going to all in every Protoss I play. If I can barely win a normal game now, after this patch I'm doomed. This. I played a tvp yesterday were I was up a base the whole game, up in upgrades, had perfect emp and still got rolled. Im either going to 6 rax, go back to the 1/1/1 or switch to protoss as this is horrible. I feel sorry for zergs now as they were already having a hard time Besides the fact that your post is hilarious bs, you want to switch from the strongest race to the weakest race? Or are you in Bronze-Silver where Protoss is actually the best? I'm a High Diamond Terran and to prove my friend wrong I practiced Protoss for a weekend and was able to play +50% winrate on my ladder account for about 15 games or so. Personally I thought it was pretty easy to switch to Protoss, and I barely lost in the late game (which happens to be what this patch is targeting to make easier). If the guy works on it I'm sure that he can play Protoss too without too much difficulty (now Zerg, I don't even want to try playing that, haha). Yo dawg, we heard you and locant like making up bullshit stories. You probably lost every game and nerdraged like crazy. Even if I switch to the master race Terran today, I highly doubt I'd be winning most of my games in Masters league. Please tell your silly stories to little kids that will fall for it. Sorry, but the stats say that Protoss is by far the weakest race, especially at Masters / GM / pro level, and suffer still in Diamond and Plat. If Protoss was anywhere near as good as you imply, there would be 20 Protoss in Code S, not 20 Terrans. I'll tell you a story that's actually true. Friend of mine was stuck in Gold as Protoss. Played everyday, couldn't get anywhere. He switches to Zerg, and within 1.5 months, he became Diamond. In another month or 2, he's Masters. And Zerg isn't even as powerful as Terran either. That's just the shitty state of Toss. lol Making up hilarious myths isn't going to get you laid bud, so I don't see why you try . People like you make me want to cry... the literary and physical mind of a total dick. Calling someone out for making up a ridiculously false story is being a dick? I fail to see how that correlates. Are you the kind of guy who like kolant says absolutely absurd things and claims them to be true, and then when someone doesn't believe you, you start raging and name calling? I'm just trying to get where you're coming from, because going by your logic, saying someone telling a story of how he rode a falcon and backflipped onto the Great Pyramid and jet skiied across the Atlantic ocean is lying, is being a dick. What?
If he's lying then I must be too. I play Z and T 99% of the time and when I switch to Protoss (master level) I can sustain a 50% or greater win rate with very little experience under my belt. If he's in diamond (or lower for the other posters) I would tend to believe them all the more because I believe Protoss is quite strong at lower levels.
Thing is though, you have zero proof that his story is bullshit. I can assure you I'm telling the truth, but if you're being fair, you're calling me a bullshitter too simply because I can win half my games as Protoss.
Interestingly enough, your little story about your friend's success as Zerg just further validates their story in my eyes. Races have different play styles and some races suit some people better. In much the same way your friend found success with Zerg, so too could these players have found success with Protoss.
On topic:
EMP nerf - whatever. More ghosts or better spread on EMPs.
Protoss buffs - probably necessary at high levels; but holy hell will those upgrades ever come fast.
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United States7483 Posts
On October 26 2011 12:19 Jackle wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 12:04 Whitewing wrote:On October 26 2011 11:51 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On October 26 2011 11:37 The Final Boss wrote:On October 26 2011 11:36 iLike413 wrote:On October 26 2011 11:30 The Final Boss wrote:On October 26 2011 11:25 ImmortalTofu wrote:On October 26 2011 11:22 The Final Boss wrote:
Now, for all the people talking about "Name a good Korean Protoss" or "Name a good Foreign Terran," I want everybody to try and name something for me. A Macro-Oriented Korean Protoss.
As far as Terrans go, you have players like TOP, TheStC, or Jjakji who consistently go for macro games. I can't think of a Korean Protoss player who looks for macro games often times in PvT, as they usually wind up doing some sort of timing attack, whether it is 1, 2, and very rarely 3 bases. The problem isn't lack of skill, but lack of depth in the play. Korean Protoss players are constantly aggressive--or, at the very least they are overly predictable. Puzzle, and he got rolled pretty much every single time in PvT everytime due to EMP lategame. MC as well, after his GSL March win, and had alot of success against against Terran, with Puma and Bomber. MC does Timing attacks in almost every game he plays. He is far from a Macro-Protoss. And Puzzle's PvT has never really impressed me. Maybe it's because he beat MMA with Dark Templar back in Code A and still almost managed to lose those games due to poor control and macro, but I just don't think he really understands the match-ups that well. But regardless, congrats on naming a single Korean Macro Protoss. Anyone who says "show me a macro protoss herp derp" doesn't really understand the game.... In late game situations terran has the ability to have a much more massive army than toss because they are running off of almost purely mules.. thats at least 30+ extra supply in army comp. Toss have always relied on timing pushes because they are the weakest macro race... You know, about a year ago people were saying that Terran couldn't compete in the late game and that's why you had BitByBit-type players going all-in game after game after game. EDIT: Also, really late game can't Protoss just build a strong Gateway army in approimately 5 seconds, and then with Chronoboost you can then supercharge all of your Gateways and create an even bigger army in no time at all? You had BitByBit going all-in and then he got weeded out and we never heard from him again. Yeah Terrans *totally* couldn't keep up with anyone. Or you could look at the Top Four for each GSL That's exactly what he was saying, you agreed with him. He was saying that a while ago, every Terran player was complaining that they had to all-in and that big maps would be disaster for them because they can't win in a long game, but then they learned to play better and are still raping everyone. Mmm.. I don't recall people complaining that the only thing that Terran could do is all-in. More like the opposite, people were complaining that they kept all-ining because it was such a high-risk/high-reward strategy when Protoss couldn't figure it out. There was a lot of money on the line so people did whatever it took to win the game, regardless of it's "cheesyness".
This was a while ago, back when Steppes of War was still in the map pool.
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Shield cost was warranted, wasn't viable to invest into it. Although the Attack/Armour upgrades are questionable...
EMP nerf was coming, nothing new. However, against a really well positioned Protoss (HT's spread out, Zealots doing a circle of rape surround etc), I can see this being a lot tougher. I guess I'll either veto the re-tardily gigantic maps, or 1-1-1 allin, or just never tread into open space lol.
2 cents from a masters Terran
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woohoo. I'm a Zerg, but I look forward to this changes as I rally think Protoss has been underpowered so far.
I know that in my Master league almost all protosses and this is something like 80% loose to my 3 base timing attack with tons of hydras and lings.
I feel having cheaper upgrades will really make them upgrade faster and be able to defend against my hydra/ling timing attack.
And of course this is also a huge buff against terrans who so far had huge advantage with their upgrades. Hopefully we'll see protosses start to be more competitive now, especially in Korea.
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On October 26 2011 12:21 Shewklad wrote:
I don't really mind these changes(I play Terran). But what annoys me is that I KNOW that people will still complain about Terran being OP every time a Terran wins a tournament.
And while I think it's good that Blizzard are listening to the community, they sometimes do it too much, it's the same in all blizzard games. When they have something that is slightly better, they nerf it down to a sack of shit. And when something is slightly worse then the other races they buff it to infinity. I really hope this isn't going to be the case this time.
I think people bitch about Terran being OP is because they get so goddamn far with really cheap, accessible, rapidly produced units.
Don't get me wrong, I play me a lot of Terran but you can't deny that bio is incredibly powerful. Stim and some scoot 'n shoot is so cost effective it's bonkers. No other race can do that as effectively from the outset to the end of a game - period.
Perhaps these earlier upgrades and reduced EMP radius will level the mid-game playing field.
We shall see.
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United States7483 Posts
On October 26 2011 12:34 jay236 wrote:
Shield cost was warranted, wasn't viable to invest into it. Although the Attack/Armour upgrades are questionable...
EMP nerf was coming, nothing new. However, against a really well positioned Protoss (HT's spread out, Zealots doing a circle of rape surround etc), I can see this being a lot tougher. I guess I'll either veto the re-tardily gigantic maps, or 1-1-1 allin, or just never tread into open space lol.
2 cents from a masters Terran
If HT's are spread out, you snipe instead. In fact, I feel like for great terrans, they usually preferred to snipe HT's unless there were more than 4 grouped up, and EMP is too good for the shield damage.
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On October 26 2011 12:35 Mjolnir wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 12:21 Shewklad wrote:
I don't really mind these changes(I play Terran). But what annoys me is that I KNOW that people will still complain about Terran being OP every time a Terran wins a tournament.
And while I think it's good that Blizzard are listening to the community, they sometimes do it too much, it's the same in all blizzard games. When they have something that is slightly better, they nerf it down to a sack of shit. And when something is slightly worse then the other races they buff it to infinity. I really hope this isn't going to be the case this time. I think people bitch about Terran being OP is because they get so goddamn far with really cheap, accessible, rapidly produced units. Don't get me wrong, I play me a lot of Terran but you can't deny that bio is incredibly powerful. Stim and some scoot 'n shoot is so cost effective it's bonkers. No other race can do that as effectively from the outset to the end of a game - period. Perhaps these earlier upgrades and reduced EMP radius will level the mid-game playing field. We shall see.
Yes, yes. I absolutley agree that there are a few things that is favoring Terrans. BUT I'm very, very afraid that blizzard is gonna overdo it, something they've done a looooot of times before.
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EPT
