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On January 23 2012 06:47 Coopa826 wrote:
I dont like it when people say things like
"if zerg masses Mutas protoss loses automatically because Mutas are op"
i mean stalkers dont really do well against so many mutas. not even with blink.
Blizzard suggested the phoenix as a counter .... and?
if the zerg has 50 mutas, why dont protossplayers make 30 phoenixes?
Its the same thing with the infestor. 20 high templar can easily kill infinte infestors.
Broodlords too strong? make a f*ckton of vikings
Thors too strong? Make a f*ckton of roaches
XXX too strong? make a f*ckton of YYY
People really should get away of that "derp derp is too op" mentality
If there are some real issues like the "speed" infestors or the op blueflame hellions blizzard is going to do something about it. And if they make mistakes like the neural parasite change the community is going to tell them.
if zerg announces he is going brood lord, sure.
not saying it's op, but hive units are just hard because marauders (ultra) and vikings (brood) are fairly useless all game until those units come into play. that's what makes them good.
2 port banshee too strong? make a fuckton of queens and spores just in case! DERP
User was warned for this post
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On January 23 2012 08:50 sleigh bells wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 06:47 Coopa826 wrote:
I dont like it when people say things like
"if zerg masses Mutas protoss loses automatically because Mutas are op"
i mean stalkers dont really do well against so many mutas. not even with blink.
Blizzard suggested the phoenix as a counter .... and?
if the zerg has 50 mutas, why dont protossplayers make 30 phoenixes?
Its the same thing with the infestor. 20 high templar can easily kill infinte infestors.
Broodlords too strong? make a f*ckton of vikings
Thors too strong? Make a f*ckton of roaches
XXX too strong? make a f*ckton of YYY
People really should get away of that "derp derp is too op" mentality
If there are some real issues like the "speed" infestors or the op blueflame hellions blizzard is going to do something about it. And if they make mistakes like the neural parasite change the community is going to tell them. if zerg announces he is going brood lord, sure. not saying it's op, but hive units are just hard because marauders (ultra) and vikings (brood) are fairly useless all game until those units come into play. that's what makes them good. 2 port banshee too strong? make a fuckton of queens and spores just in case! DERP
The real problem here is the original claim that, if Zerg makes 50 mutalisks, Protoss should just make 30 phoenixes. Good luck getting four stargates up and finding the gas to blindly make phoenixes over a several minute period while the Zerg simply uses up an entire larva cycle tech switching back to roaches and owning your collosus-less army. Protoss really just needs a better way to combat mutalisks, because Phoenixes are simply not cost effective. Tempest is too effective, I agree, but I think it's a step in the right direction.
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On January 23 2012 08:50 sleigh bells wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 06:47 Coopa826 wrote:
I dont like it when people say things like
"if zerg masses Mutas protoss loses automatically because Mutas are op"
i mean stalkers dont really do well against so many mutas. not even with blink.
Blizzard suggested the phoenix as a counter .... and?
if the zerg has 50 mutas, why dont protossplayers make 30 phoenixes?
Its the same thing with the infestor. 20 high templar can easily kill infinte infestors.
Broodlords too strong? make a f*ckton of vikings
Thors too strong? Make a f*ckton of roaches
XXX too strong? make a f*ckton of YYY
People really should get away of that "derp derp is too op" mentality
If there are some real issues like the "speed" infestors or the op blueflame hellions blizzard is going to do something about it. And if they make mistakes like the neural parasite change the community is going to tell them. if zerg announces he is going brood lord, sure. not saying it's op, but hive units are just hard because marauders (ultra) and vikings (brood) are fairly useless all game until those units come into play. that's what makes them good. 2 port banshee too strong? make a fuckton of queens and spores just in case! DERP
Or you could make the ghost which counters both units lol. But yeah if Muta are OP I tell you then terran/protoss have a lot more OP units :D
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On January 23 2012 09:17 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 08:50 sleigh bells wrote:On January 23 2012 06:47 Coopa826 wrote:
I dont like it when people say things like
"if zerg masses Mutas protoss loses automatically because Mutas are op"
i mean stalkers dont really do well against so many mutas. not even with blink.
Blizzard suggested the phoenix as a counter .... and?
if the zerg has 50 mutas, why dont protossplayers make 30 phoenixes?
Its the same thing with the infestor. 20 high templar can easily kill infinte infestors.
Broodlords too strong? make a f*ckton of vikings
Thors too strong? Make a f*ckton of roaches
XXX too strong? make a f*ckton of YYY
People really should get away of that "derp derp is too op" mentality
If there are some real issues like the "speed" infestors or the op blueflame hellions blizzard is going to do something about it. And if they make mistakes like the neural parasite change the community is going to tell them. if zerg announces he is going brood lord, sure. not saying it's op, but hive units are just hard because marauders (ultra) and vikings (brood) are fairly useless all game until those units come into play. that's what makes them good. 2 port banshee too strong? make a fuckton of queens and spores just in case! DERP Or you could make the ghost which counters both units lol. But yeah if Muta are OP I tell you then terran/protoss have a lot more OP units :D
to be honest my biggest problem with mutas (and banshees and drops btw) is the current map design.
All that empty air space around the bases means that flying units can evacuate without big problems in quite a few directions while ground units cannot cut them off or catch them.
If that was changed Zerg would have a far easier time defending drops (currently a problem in ZvT) and Terrans and protoss would have an easier time defending mutas (or at least know which avenues they need to defend with turrets to make muta harass unprofitable).
Mutas are a glass cannon that flies quite fast, by definition that must be strong and expensive (which they also are), but it doesn't really matter if they are made of glass if protoss can almost never catch them does it?
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As a tech path, GREEDY muta play is EXTREMELY easy to telegraph (by the zerg) and therefore easy to prepare for:
3-4 gas EARLY along with pure sling (could be sling/infestor though)
Low harass/poke early on (sign of zerg playing greedy)
NO Roach Warren
Early Lair
Etc. etc.,
But what this does to a protoss is it forces them to make a timing push to end the greed right then and there or lose map control. Most protoss push. Zerg tears then commence like clockwork about how OP protoss timings can be. If protoss miss the proper scout (or zerg hides spire sufficiently like on TDA), then the game swings HEAVILY into the zerg's favor if protoss didn't go blink or SG, and can straight up make a game unwinnable for any toss that decided to try to play macro (get a quick 3rd on zlot/sentry).
So do mutas break the game? Hell no, they are far from OP
So do mutas limit choices protoss can make? Yes, but that is part of the game
So do mutas encourage more DO OR DIE scenarios than any single unit should encourage? In my opinion, yes, mutas encourage stagnant ass gameplays/base trade scenarios/turtle until 150-max games that make for a worse ladder experience overall.
For anyone who is interested, if I see 7-8 mutas fly in blindly without checking out my army composition, i often have decent enough map control/awareness to catch them before they fly in. Use Hallu/Obs/probe scouts to always get a read on what the zerg is doing. But for me at low masters level, 9 times out of 10, 8 mutas flying in blindly is just asking for me to just go into the zerg base and wreck them. Mutaling depends solely on superior positioning IMHO.
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I just watched the demo of the tempest again. What a terrible looking unit. How does this help protoss against MMM, or, more importantly, against colossus in PvP?
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I just had another thought on this... The tempest isn't really designed as a muta counter..(although it will do this) its more designed as a big overpriced game winner.. (much as the Carrier used to be in Broodwar) as such its more a counter to vikings and corruptors.. (which between them have essentially made big air pretty redundant)*
In essence This is a replacement carrier, a thing that once you get a critical mass of them up is an I win button..
*Except when  TLO goes BC
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On January 23 2012 09:55 Captain Calamity wrote:I just had another thought on this... The tempest isn't really designed as a muta counter..(although it will do this) its more designed as a big overpriced game winner.. (much as the Carrier used to be in Broodwar) as such its more a counter to vikings and corruptors.. (which between them have essentially made big air pretty redundant)* In essence This is a replacement carrier, a thing that once you get a critical mass of them up is an I win button.. *Except when TLO goes BC
Wonderful, now we can have colo+tempest death balls instead of colo+vr like before the fungal growth buff. I hope you're wrong about that.
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On January 23 2012 10:09 Drowsy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 09:55 Captain Calamity wrote:I just had another thought on this... The tempest isn't really designed as a muta counter..(although it will do this) its more designed as a big overpriced game winner.. (much as the Carrier used to be in Broodwar) as such its more a counter to vikings and corruptors.. (which between them have essentially made big air pretty redundant)* In essence This is a replacement carrier, a thing that once you get a critical mass of them up is an I win button.. *Except when TLO goes BC Wonderful, now we can have colo+tempest death balls instead of colo+vr like before the fungal growth buff. I hope you're wrong about that.
This deathball would get slaughtered by corruptors and their bonus versus massive. You'd just have to make sure to spread them out to reduce tempest splash. I can see tempests being quite strong versus mass viking, however, so in that sense they might actually complement a colossus-based army relatively well.
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On October 25 2011 18:22 Koshi wrote:
I think Blizzard wants to develop a game were 1 unit can't have a dominating grip after the early game. Mutalisks could decide a game on their own, with the new toys zerg gets we might see a bit more diversion in units on the board.
I 100% agree. Not much more needs to be said then this. I can't count how many times I have seen games won/lost because of one or two successful muta harasses, whether it be ZvT, ZvP or even ZvZ.
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On January 23 2012 10:39 MarkT34 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 18:22 Koshi wrote:
I think Blizzard wants to develop a game were 1 unit can't have a dominating grip after the early game. Mutalisks could decide a game on their own, with the new toys zerg gets we might see a bit more diversion in units on the board.
I 100% agree. Not much more needs to be said then this. I can't count how many times I have seen games won/lost because of one or two successful muta harasses, whether it be ZvT, ZvP or even ZvZ.
Look at mass blink stalkers, reactor hellion openings mass marine tactic etc etc, there are a lot of units which all works like mutas.
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On January 23 2012 10:39 MarkT34 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 18:22 Koshi wrote:
I think Blizzard wants to develop a game were 1 unit can't have a dominating grip after the early game. Mutalisks could decide a game on their own, with the new toys zerg gets we might see a bit more diversion in units on the board.
I 100% agree. Not much more needs to be said then this. I can't count how many times I have seen games won/lost because of one or two successful muta harasses, whether it be ZvT, ZvP or even ZvZ.
lol.
I can't count the number of times I have seen just marines win a game, or a bunker rush or a 6 gate all in, or blink stalker all in, or void ray all in! Oh I could keep going please lol using that statement like that just blows my mind...
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I don't think Mutas are OP, I think Protoss doesn't have the correct tool for the job. If Terran spots Mutas it's no big deal, they have marines anyway, or can switch to Thor production if meching. The answere is apparent.
For Protoss what do you do if you see Mutas? I guess make blink stalkers, and a bunch of cannons, and start teching to high templar with storm and some archons. But that takes a long time giving Zerg map control and too much space to take the map and tech.
I don't want to exaggerate and suggest Protoss can't deal with it cause they can. But I also think Protoss should have a better more effecient way to deal with it than they currentley have.
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On January 23 2012 09:08 YoureFired wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 08:50 sleigh bells wrote:On January 23 2012 06:47 Coopa826 wrote:
I dont like it when people say things like
"if zerg masses Mutas protoss loses automatically because Mutas are op"
i mean stalkers dont really do well against so many mutas. not even with blink.
Blizzard suggested the phoenix as a counter .... and?
if the zerg has 50 mutas, why dont protossplayers make 30 phoenixes?
Its the same thing with the infestor. 20 high templar can easily kill infinte infestors.
Broodlords too strong? make a f*ckton of vikings
Thors too strong? Make a f*ckton of roaches
XXX too strong? make a f*ckton of YYY
People really should get away of that "derp derp is too op" mentality
If there are some real issues like the "speed" infestors or the op blueflame hellions blizzard is going to do something about it. And if they make mistakes like the neural parasite change the community is going to tell them. if zerg announces he is going brood lord, sure. not saying it's op, but hive units are just hard because marauders (ultra) and vikings (brood) are fairly useless all game until those units come into play. that's what makes them good. 2 port banshee too strong? make a fuckton of queens and spores just in case! DERP The real problem here is the original claim that, if Zerg makes 50 mutalisks, Protoss should just make 30 phoenixes. Good luck getting four stargates up and finding the gas to blindly make phoenixes over a several minute period while the Zerg simply uses up an entire larva cycle tech switching back to roaches and owning your collosus-less army. Protoss really just needs a better way to combat mutalisks, because Phoenixes are simply not cost effective. Tempest is too effective, I agree, but I think it's a step in the right direction.
Why is Tempest too effective? Isn't it super slow? Although I can see it be useful in base trade scenarios, you leave your Tempests at home with cannons/HT to defend while your usual death ball go out and kill stuff. Plus if you save energy on Nexus you can use recall also to catch the mutalisks. ^_^ Overall now though in WoL I think it requires far more for the defender than the mutalisk user, but I guess that's just the way it is.
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Does anybody else see that its odd that the tempest is basically a flying thor with a larger splash radius(i think). seriously. They removed the thor because as a slow, expensive, aoe unit it wasn't cutting it against mutalisks in the way that they decided to give the protoss a slow, expensive, aoe unit... it just seems silly
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On January 23 2012 11:53 omnic wrote:
Does anybody else see that its odd that the tempest is basically a flying thor with a larger splash radius(i think). seriously. They removed the thor because as a slow, expensive, aoe unit it wasn't cutting it against mutalisks in the way that they decided to give the protoss a slow, expensive, aoe unit... it just seems silly
Magicboxing allows the zerg player to actually not autolose infinity mutas to a single thor. But, cost for cost, thors still beat mutas...no? Isn't this like common knowledge? How is it not doing well against mutas?
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On January 23 2012 12:00 Luppy1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 11:53 omnic wrote:
Does anybody else see that its odd that the tempest is basically a flying thor with a larger splash radius(i think). seriously. They removed the thor because as a slow, expensive, aoe unit it wasn't cutting it against mutalisks in the way that they decided to give the protoss a slow, expensive, aoe unit... it just seems silly Magicboxing allows the zerg player to actually not autolose infinity mutas to a single thor. But, cost for cost, thors still beat mutas...no? Isn't this like common knowledge? How is it not doing well against mutas?
Because they can fly rings around them? thors are great against mutas if you can actually get them into the fight. Usually you build 3-4 Thors max in a game (unless you are going dedicated mech full time) so at most you can cover 2 areas against mutas.
The tempest might not have quite the same problem (at least its a flying unit not a ground unit) but as many other people have said the fundamental logic of trying to defend against one of the fastest units in the game with one of the slowest is kind of fishy at best.
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On January 23 2012 12:00 Luppy1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 11:53 omnic wrote:
Does anybody else see that its odd that the tempest is basically a flying thor with a larger splash radius(i think). seriously. They removed the thor because as a slow, expensive, aoe unit it wasn't cutting it against mutalisks in the way that they decided to give the protoss a slow, expensive, aoe unit... it just seems silly Magicboxing allows the zerg player to actually not autolose infinity mutas to a single thor. But, cost for cost, thors still beat mutas...no? Isn't this like common knowledge? How is it not doing well against mutas?
because mass mutalisk > pure mech builds, people have been saying that throughout the thread...
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On January 23 2012 12:05 omnic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 12:00 Luppy1 wrote:On January 23 2012 11:53 omnic wrote:
Does anybody else see that its odd that the tempest is basically a flying thor with a larger splash radius(i think). seriously. They removed the thor because as a slow, expensive, aoe unit it wasn't cutting it against mutalisks in the way that they decided to give the protoss a slow, expensive, aoe unit... it just seems silly Magicboxing allows the zerg player to actually not autolose infinity mutas to a single thor. But, cost for cost, thors still beat mutas...no? Isn't this like common knowledge? How is it not doing well against mutas? because mass mutalisk > pure mech builds, people have been saying that throughout the thread...
In a fight? anything above 5 thors with 3/3 is pretty much impossible to attack with Mutas even with magicbox. The problem with Thors isn't magicbox or that they are too weak, the problem is that they are one of the slowest units in the game...
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I think there is MANY dis advantages and advantages for each race, despite what everyone thinks I think Protoss is actually a little favored vs Zerg at the moment in the late game ( 200 vs 200 attack ) , I played Zerg since beta for like 2 years and just recently switched to P, you might have to outmicro, outmultitask, maybe out play the Zerg, but to I am amazed that this thread is still open lol, I can't even believe the amount of people I see in here saying that mutalisks are op vs Toss, I find this absolutely ridiculous, The Protoss might have to out maneuver and out control mutalisks when he goes pheonix's but pheonix's destroy mutalisks if controlled correctly, on top of that opening up with stargate after forge FE if you don't lose you're mutalisks and have map control, can harass, force zerg into a build, ect ect.
Mutalisks are like one of Zerg's only good harassing and indirectly attacking units, I say indirectly because they can attack and harass so it is a little different, but there is SO many tools Protoss has to defend against Mutalisks.... Cannons when units are around them, archon, stalker with blink, storm, pheonix, even a lot of voidrays does good vs mutalisks especially if there is some pheonix's around.
When you open forge FE into 2stargate you shouldn't ever have to worry about mutalisks unless you lose your pheonix's, you have the advantage and air superiority for a long period of time when you open with double stargate, untill Zerg has his 3rd up , but even then most zergs will not open mutalisk vs 2stargates, and if they do I would feel bad for them.
I don't think Mutalisks are OP at all I just think Protoss players need to play better. That's my opinion, High level masters Protoss that switched from Zerg. gl hf gg
And also I don't think the air upgrades of protoss have been completely figured out yet or used enough, when people start realizing that pheonix's can be upgraded to nullify the mutalisks then maybe there will be less "Mutalisk are OP" complaints...
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EPT
