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[D]Are mutalisks overpowered in WOL?? - Page 94

Forum Index > SC2 General
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TheDraken
Profile Joined July 2011
United States640 Posts
January 21 2012 22:12 GMT
#1861
can zerg not have just ONE unit that makes everyone shit their pants?
toss get colossus. terrans get marines. where's the zerg love?

they're just good because of their mobility. if you actually fight mutas head on they blow. and for people referencing mass muta balls as unstoppable, it's just poor unit response.
fast food. y u no make me fast? <( ಠ益ಠ <)
Gelenn
Profile Joined April 2011
United States87 Posts
January 21 2012 22:13 GMT
#1862
On January 22 2012 07:05 Go1den wrote:
lol @ Zergs complaining about how "bad" mutalisks are

If you don't believe mutalisks are the most overpowered unit in the game, you either (a) don't play Protoss or (b) don't use mutalisks correctly.


Or (c) play against good protoss that know how to respond to mutalisks. Or (d) think mutalisks aren't over or underpowered and this thread has turned into balance whine that gets the community nowhere.

I pick D.
Ziggitz
Profile Joined September 2010
United States340 Posts
January 21 2012 22:14 GMT
#1863
On January 22 2012 07:04 Blasterion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2012 07:02 Ziggitz wrote:
On January 22 2012 06:58 Tyrant0 wrote:
On January 22 2012 06:54 Arayon wrote:
I think they have to reduce Mutas cost, because ATM theyre the most cost-ineffective Unit in the whole game. I mean, 50 Marines with Stim and Shields crush 50 1-1 upgraded Mutas, which means that 2500 Mins defeat 5000/5000 mins/gas.

Now you can say that therefore Mutas have a high mobility and extreme map control - AND THATS WHAT I MEAN! If one Protoss Ship can defeat so many Mutas, why should i even build them?


You pay the huge price for the single most mobile unit in the game with an amazing snowball effect. In the right hands they more than pay for themselves.

edit: why build spinecrawlers protoss can just make colossus and outrange them


Actually that would be phoenixes.

Phoenix don't go XY on an extreme level nor do they chain attacks,


Protosses never keep making phoenixes, and if you still think the chain attack is a serious issue with mutalisks instead of realizing it's atctually worse than havew the dps straight up in one attack without any bounces then there's no hope for you.
FeyFey
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany10114 Posts
January 21 2012 22:26 GMT
#1864
the discussion why and what makes mutas overpowered already went on in here. Protoss can deal fairly easy with mutas its just not that one unit type will win you the fight. The problem with mutas is that they are really cheap, sure gas but thats no issue for the zerg at that time, especially since its hard to lose mutas if you pay attention. So they are overpowered but they aren't that overpowered that they break anything. (Imo a bit harder to micro and they would be fine, auto magic box a bit tigther together so aoes hit a bit more and totally fine, but thats my personal opinion. Mutas are perfect for harassment and probably a newby killer, but they are lost army supply lategame, making it risky for the zerg)

Anyway watch recent code S tosses deal with mutas, it shows how to defend them right. I kept it bwish and use phoenix + canon to defend mutas, works perfect as phoenix > mutas when armies collide. (mutas are only better if the phoenix are alone, but since they are faster it will never happen)
happyness
Profile Joined June 2010
United States2400 Posts
January 21 2012 22:44 GMT
#1865
This whole discussion is silly. The tempest is being made for game design reasons, not balance.

Blizzard is not making the tempest because mutas are overpowered, but because going mass mutas leads to stupid games. Does anybody like these constant base trades that mass muta forces the toss into? It leads to games that are not fun to watch and not fun to play. I'm not sure if the tempest will solve the problem, but at least blizz recognizes the problem.
LuckoftheIrish
Profile Joined November 2011
United States4791 Posts
January 22 2012 00:42 GMT
#1866
You know what's less fun than that? Player A's deathball rolls into Player B's deathball. Player A wins because Player A didn't have Archons and a Mothership enough Brood Lords and Infestors (delete whichever is racially inappropriate.). The game ends.
On Twitter @GosuGamers_LotI | Grubby has a huge head!
Blasterion
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
China10272 Posts
January 22 2012 14:08 GMT
#1867
Mutas aren't exactly overpowered, it's just that the races could have better ways to deal with them. Making for more interesting game play.
[TLNY]Mahjong Club Thread
Tarotis
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
Germany1931 Posts
January 22 2012 14:10 GMT
#1868
On January 22 2012 23:08 Blasterion wrote:
Mutas aren't exactly overpowered, it's just that the races could have better ways to deal with them. Making for more interesting game play.

"Mutas are fine but their counters are underpowered"?
Captain Calamity
Profile Joined May 2010
United Kingdom38 Posts
January 22 2012 14:18 GMT
#1869
Im going to make a guess here...

Basically since muta counters are becoming more available I am wondering if mutas are going to get a direct or indirect buff as a result of as yet unseen/ unforseen changes to come in HOTS.
sorrowptoss
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Canada1431 Posts
January 22 2012 14:22 GMT
#1870
Furthermore, the tempest was described because Protoss players apparently had trouble with big muta switches in PvZ.

I know this isn't necessairly your opinion, but rather Blizzard's, but seriously, the Tempest seems to be the most overpowered thing of all time, along with that shredder thing. The Tempest is basicly a valkyrie (BW) + storms (which by the way already work vs mutas). Soooo ridiculous.
I hate how Blizzard thinks of changing the entire game by adding ridiculous units just because of a build, without even leaving some time for the players to think of a way to adapt. Nowadays, protosses counter muta based builds very well, it just took some time. Same thing goes for everything else in the game and its patches.
Blasterion
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
China10272 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-22 14:26:16
January 22 2012 14:24 GMT
#1871
On January 22 2012 23:10 Tarotis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2012 23:08 Blasterion wrote:
Mutas aren't exactly overpowered, it's just that the races could have better ways to deal with them. Making for more interesting game play.

"Mutas are fine but their counters are underpowered"?

Let's just say they aren't really great at doing what they are suppose to do? The counters are bad at fighting the mobility that Mutalisks possess. Especially when you can micro a flock of 40+. I mean back then u can only micro 12. that wasn't an issue. not to mention Goliath weren't as slow as thors which is the reason for the implementation of the Warhound. Vikings don't do splash damage. I miss My Valks.

Not to say they are OP but there should be more to it than Marines and Thors. of which Thors make great deterrents. Terrible counter
[TLNY]Mahjong Club Thread
MrCash
Profile Joined October 2011
United States1504 Posts
January 22 2012 14:35 GMT
#1872
On January 22 2012 07:12 TheDraken wrote:
can zerg not have just ONE unit that makes everyone shit their pants?
toss get colossus. terrans get marines. where's the zerg love?

they're just good because of their mobility. if you actually fight mutas head on they blow. and for people referencing mass muta balls as unstoppable, it's just poor unit response.


Infestor, upgraded ultars (you forget upgrades, no one is scared), broodlords, mass banelings.
MrCash
Profile Joined October 2011
United States1504 Posts
January 22 2012 14:39 GMT
#1873
On January 22 2012 23:10 Tarotis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2012 23:08 Blasterion wrote:
Mutas aren't exactly overpowered, it's just that the races could have better ways to deal with them. Making for more interesting game play.

"Mutas are fine but their counters are underpowered"?


I somewhat agree.
Mutas have little health for their cost, so they should be vulnerable, but they will either contain easily or force silly base trades.
If the other races have some more mobile units that can engage them cost effectively or not require to dedicate so much supply to defenses alone, it would make for a more dynamic match up vs mutas.
kurrysauce
Profile Joined October 2010
272 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-22 14:47:36
January 22 2012 14:47 GMT
#1874
On January 22 2012 07:05 Go1den wrote:
lol @ Zergs complaining about how "bad" mutalisks are

If you don't believe mutalisks are the most overpowered unit in the game, you either (a) don't play Protoss or (b) don't use mutalisks correctly.


(c) isn't in diamond league and below .
PandaMonk
Profile Joined June 2011
United States300 Posts
January 22 2012 15:08 GMT
#1875
I don't understand the problem with mutalisks. As a zerg, I have played muta vs terran, protoss, and zerg, and they are not overpowered. There is a situation that is uniwinnable that mutalisks can put you in though (you don't get your third in time and are stuck). I think Protoss just needs time to figure out how to correctly deal with mutalisks, at one time mutas seemed op vs terran, but now terran are able to deal with them just fine. I think its important to give it some more time before calling it OP.
Arisen
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2382 Posts
January 22 2012 15:09 GMT
#1876
I'm starting to rethink my position on this issue. I originally thought that the muta was totally fine, and I still mostly think that. I do NOT think that the UNIT is overpowered, but the APPLICATION of the the unit can be sort of overpowered on certain maps. For instance, on a map where it's very hard to secure an early third and hold it and your natural, if you didn't open up stargates, I do not see a zerg player who opens 2 base muta losing that game.

I could be wrong here, as I'm no where close to the best player in the world, but I've played and seen too many games where if that third isn't super early and toss isn't going stargate, protoss can not get the gas he needs to defend his base and get on the map at the same time, so zerg gets free epos and build such a muta count that he can deny the third if the army defends a counter or can counter and do a ton of damage if he defends his third.

Now, if toss opens stargate, I believe toss is adequately suited to dealing with mutalisks such that he can secure a difficult third base. Once protoss has secured three base, I don't believe you'd hear any protoss of sufficient skill being reasonable claim that mutalisks are overpowered. They are certainly strong, but can be delt with. If protoss is stuck on two base, though, mutalisks do force a situation where protoss can not really do much if the zerg plays optimally. THough, like I said, I believe that on these maps a protoss should realize this and go stargate.

Terran I think is obviously adequately suited to dealing with mutalisks going bio, but I believe that if a terran wants to go mech, thors are weak in small numbers to mutalisks, so the warhound to me makes sense. The tempest, however, looks to make mass muta not an option,and from a design standpoint, I think that this is a horrendous, horrendous unit. If a small amount of a unit makes a whole strategy irrelivant, there is a problem, which looks to be the case with the tempest. If they reduced the splash significantly, however, I think the unit is OK (because you can micro your mutas/corrupters, etc to still make mass air viable) but not particularly interesting otherwise, so I don't like the unit on a whole.
"If you're not angry, you're not paying attention"
Blezza
Profile Joined June 2011
United Kingdom191 Posts
January 22 2012 15:11 GMT
#1877
I think templar tech is fine against Mutalisks. It only takes a few storms to put the entire flock into red health and then the HTs can be recycled into archons, which deal huge damage to them in the final battle. The transition into Blords is then easily defeated by the Archon Toilet. Watch JYP vs Dimaga or HerO vs Dimaga
Winners race > Other race I don't play > My race. How Twitch chat work in tournaments...
ODKStevez
Profile Joined February 2011
Ireland1225 Posts
January 22 2012 15:51 GMT
#1878
I think it's too early to make assumptions with the beta not even announced yet. I personally feel that Mutas are pretty good against Protoss right now. Even though Protoss can deal with them, I feel that Protoss has to put a lot more effort than the Zerg does to deal with them. But that's just my opinion.
Luppa <3
ODKStevez
Profile Joined February 2011
Ireland1225 Posts
January 22 2012 15:52 GMT
#1879
On January 22 2012 23:18 Captain Calamity wrote:
Im going to make a guess here...

Basically since muta counters are becoming more available I am wondering if mutas are going to get a direct or indirect buff as a result of as yet unseen/ unforseen changes to come in HOTS.


From the tempest video, I wouldn't say so, they are showing a video with Mutas in it. If they changed the mutas so they would survive the Tempest a lot better, it would defeat the purpose. But then again, remember the Planet Cracker? xD (Mothership ability)
Luppa <3
Lugace
Profile Joined January 2012
United States11 Posts
January 22 2012 16:14 GMT
#1880
I honestly don't think mutalisks are OP at all...

My theory is the lower you are in the leagues, the stronger mutas become. They're still a great unit though that you have to treat very delicately and constantly babysit.

Terran have found many different ways to deal with mutas... turrets, marine, and thor are all still good. And protoss can use blink stalker + cannons in mineral line to great affect. Not sure why people have said storm is useless as Mutas can dodge them... storm is still and AOE that will hit EVERY muta, even if it is for half a second it still does a TON of damage overall to the muta flock. Land 2 or 3 more and the mutas are in red and essentially worthless untill they regain health. Mutas aren't too much of a problem in higher leagues, but I'm assuming if lower league players put up more turrets, thors, or get storms it should be really easy to kill mutas. Have to also consider that the Zerg player controlling mutas is also in that same low league, so his control won't be all that great and they probably won't be able to magic box very well. Meaning 2 storms should kill every muta if landed correctly, and a well placed thor will do all the damage it needs to.

I also don't agree with Blizzard's decision of units in the upcoming patch. If their reasoning for the tempest is to counter mutas... give players more time to come up with more ways to deal with them. Even though my previously mentioned counters work just fine as it is...

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