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On December 15 2011 01:24 Big J wrote:
But again I want to point out, that even with the phoenix being a great mutalisk counter, I'm not saying you should throw down double starport as reaction to mutalisks. You should only build phoenixes against mutalisks if you already happen to have 2starports up.
Which is fine, but the consequence is that if you don't already have 2 stargates up, your only way to go (other than the already discussed very all in early timing push) is resorting to subpar counter units (stalkers) and trying to tech up to the very deep and costly storm templars, which in the meanwhile leaves your 2-3 bases open to continuous harassment, while you have absolutely 0 chance to harass your opponent yourself. Unless zerg uses mutas very badly (-> doesn't really harass), the mere economic abyss that will be created between you and him will crush you, possibly even if you reach storm templars (basically you can keep going for a while, he'll throw stuff and stuff at you and sooner or later you won't have any more money to reinforce).
The simple thing we are asking is to allow us the possibility to switch to phoenix as a proper counter, I'll tell you what I personally would be ok with a phoenix nerf such as removing the graviton beam ability to allow the unit to just become a more all-round viable resource vs mutalisks. I think it would be a fine compromise since honestly graviton beam is only used as a harassment tool because Protoss don't really have much else to harass with. Just to say, it's not like we want phoenix to become a god unit period.
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On December 15 2011 01:36 RehnFreemark wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:24 Big J wrote:
But again I want to point out, that even with the phoenix being a great mutalisk counter, I'm not saying you should throw down double starport as reaction to mutalisks. You should only build phoenixes against mutalisks if you already happen to have 2starports up. Which is fine, but the consequence is that if you don't already have 2 stargates up, your only way to go (other than the already discussed very all in early timing push) is resorting to subpar counter units (stalkers) and trying to tech up to the very deep and costly storm templars, which in the meanwhile leaves your 2-3 bases open to continuous harassment, while you have absolutely 0 chance to harass your opponent yourself. Unless zerg uses mutas very badly (-> doesn't really harass), the mere economic abyss that will be created between you and him will crush you, possibly even if you reach storm templars (basically you can keep going for a while, he'll throw stuff and stuff at you and sooner or later you won't have any more money to reinforce). The simple thing we are asking is to allow us the possibility to switch to phoenix as a proper counter, I'll tell you what I personally would be ok with a phoenix nerf such as removing the graviton beam ability to allow the unit to just become a more all-round viable resource vs mutalisks. I think it would be a fine compromise since honestly graviton beam is only used as a harassment tool because Protoss don't really have much else to harass with. Just to say, it's not like we want phoenix to become a god unit period.
I'm sorry, but you're talking as if nothing happened in that 12-13mins of the game, before mutalisks usually are being built.
If no big engagement has taken place you should be on robo+twilight+blink+3 fully saturated bases against 3-4 zerg bases at that time. You should have 20+ stalkers+ a reasonable zealot/sentry count at that time and Templar Archives coming.
Pretty much every mutalisk win comes from Protoss not having this setup... Well then you're dead if mutas are coming. At the current metagame I just think that it is HT>Colossus. If you go colossus before templar you flip a coin. If you don't go blink you flip a coin. If you don't go 1-2canons per mineral line you flip a coin. If you attack into a zerg without having scouting informations about his army size, you flip a coin.
I don't get why people think it is cornercutting if zerg plays without some roaches+roach speed + zerglings with zergling speed in ZvP, without an anticollossus spire, without scouting overseers, without preemtive evo+spores+extra queens against dts and air and without a reasonable hive timing, but Protoss shouldn't need a general setup to be able to react to the things zerg can throw at him.
Deal with it... If you go colossus>HT and no blink and he plays mutalisks he simply countered what you did and you lost...
Adapt your playstyle (like most korean protoss players do right now... blink is not optional, templars are not optional, a lot of scouting is not optional, a 3rd around 10mins is not optional, canons are not optional... if you want to play a reasonable macrogame without cornercutting in ZvP)
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That's not really the way it works, you don't just start the game and go "ok this time I'm going straight to HT! YAY!"
you start the game and decide how to go basing on what your opponent goes, if I see heavy roach play or needless to say hydras I have to go colossi I can't just sit on my ass forever waiting for storm templars, I'll be wolfed down way before I get them. As you pointed out however it's pretty hard to switch to high templars after that, and how easy is it to switch to a muta ball (hoping that you are not amongst those who believe that pumping 14 of them at a time is "irrelevant")?
The big thing is that even if you do manage to get high templars you're not really just out of the woods, it just becomes "possible" to maybe get out of it alive.
Check the game I posted, granted it has flaws here and there, but it shows you what a 12-13 minutes situation can be a what it can turn into (that game the mutas come into play way later than I'd consider normal, but then again as I said I don't consider Devil very good at using them at least in that occasion anyway)
I still have a hard time figuring out what causes such a horrible pain to zergs players in the idea that once you go mutalisks, protoss are allowed to reasonably transition into phoenix. Don't you transition into corruptors when colossi come out? Don't you transition into hydralisks when void rays come out?
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On December 15 2011 04:44 RehnFreemark wrote:
That's not really the way it works, you don't just start the game and go "ok this time I'm going straight to HT! YAY!"
you start the game and decide how to go basing on what your opponent goes, if I see heavy roach play or needless to say hydras I have to go colossi I can't just sit on my ass forever waiting for storm templars, I'll be wolfed down way before I get them. As you pointed out however it's pretty hard to switch to high templars after that, and how easy is it to switch to a muta ball (hoping that you are not amongst those who believe that pumping 14 of them at a time is "irrelevant")?
The big thing is that even if you do manage to get high templars you're not really just out of the woods, it just becomes "possible" to maybe get out of it alive.
Check the game I posted, granted it has flaws here and there, but it shows you what a 12-13 minutes situation can be a what it can turn into (that game the mutas come into play way later than I'd consider normal, but then again as I said I don't consider Devil very good at using them at least in that occasion anyway)
I still have a hard time figuring out what causes such a horrible pain to zergs players in the idea that once you go mutalisks, protoss are allowed to reasonably transition into phoenix. Don't you transition into corruptors when colossi come out? Don't you transition into hydralisks when void rays come out?
No you won't die. Especially if your opponent goes hydras without you going air, you should try to troll him back.
Stalker/Sentry+canons can defend against every attack that is not infestor or broodlord based. (note: defend. I am not telling you to go open field combat without splash or maxed stalkers against zerg) If you still don't feel safe: you can produce 2 immortals which are still cheaper and earlier available than colossi. It's really not as if you are extremly tight on the ressources in PvZ, as long as you don't invest into useless crap like some range colossi vs mutalisks or mass sentry early just because you are too lazy to learn proper forcefielding. (or a huge gateway offense, that resets your unit count, so you have to rebuild everything before you can do anything else, as you are playing against larvamechanism)
Furthermore you can just SCOUT with obs and/or warp prism for the zerg tech/army. If it is anything but spire you are free to still go colossus instead of templar archive.
Also you can't pump 14mutalisks at a time. You need 6-7 bases mining double gas to pump 14mutalisks per minute (income per geyser is 112 I think). And yes zerg can stockpile gas to pump an intial amount of mutalisks. But that's a thing you can also scout for. 4 or less geysers on 3 bases? No mutalisks!
5+ geysers on 3bases and a ground army that is very zergling heavy with only a small-medium amount of roaches? Infestors or Mutalisks (--> Templar!)
Switching to mass mutalisks is pretty hard apperantly on high level, as you have to survive 2mins in which you stockpile money and then another 2mins until you have contained him properly. That's why you always see mutaswitches AFTER battles. (zerg works the other way round in that regard to the other races. Zerg techs best after battles, while terran and protoss tech best while they have a solid army)
Yes I transition into hydralisks against air, but I wish I could much rather just go into infestors or corruptors to combat protoss air. But you know what. I can't. I can get them out, but until that point I'm dead/they deal very poorly initially with early air. (hey... just like reactive double starport against mutalisks! It's the best counter, but you can't reach it in time)
And yes, I can transtion into corruptors against colossi... I just wish I could go into broodlords but again: I'm dead if I go for the hardcounter before the softcounter. (corruptors being a softcounter, or even worse in this scenario, because there are colossus numbers, in which you need something against them, but matching 300/200 colossi with 2* 150/100 corruptors is a VERY bad idea in most scenarios. So you have to overcounter them, while his colossi will still deal 1000+ damage to your ground army)
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On December 15 2011 02:50 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 01:36 RehnFreemark wrote:On December 15 2011 01:24 Big J wrote:
But again I want to point out, that even with the phoenix being a great mutalisk counter, I'm not saying you should throw down double starport as reaction to mutalisks. You should only build phoenixes against mutalisks if you already happen to have 2starports up. Which is fine, but the consequence is that if you don't already have 2 stargates up, your only way to go (other than the already discussed very all in early timing push) is resorting to subpar counter units (stalkers) and trying to tech up to the very deep and costly storm templars, which in the meanwhile leaves your 2-3 bases open to continuous harassment, while you have absolutely 0 chance to harass your opponent yourself. Unless zerg uses mutas very badly (-> doesn't really harass), the mere economic abyss that will be created between you and him will crush you, possibly even if you reach storm templars (basically you can keep going for a while, he'll throw stuff and stuff at you and sooner or later you won't have any more money to reinforce). The simple thing we are asking is to allow us the possibility to switch to phoenix as a proper counter, I'll tell you what I personally would be ok with a phoenix nerf such as removing the graviton beam ability to allow the unit to just become a more all-round viable resource vs mutalisks. I think it would be a fine compromise since honestly graviton beam is only used as a harassment tool because Protoss don't really have much else to harass with. Just to say, it's not like we want phoenix to become a god unit period. I'm sorry, but you're talking as if nothing happened in that 12-13mins of the game, before mutalisks usually are being built. If no big engagement has taken place you should be on robo+twilight+blink+3 fully saturated bases against 3-4 zerg bases at that time. You should have 20+ stalkers+ a reasonable zealot/sentry count at that time and Templar Archives coming. Pretty much every mutalisk win comes from Protoss not having this setup... Well then you're dead if mutas are coming. At the current metagame I just think that it is HT>Colossus. If you go colossus before templar you flip a coin. If you don't go blink you flip a coin. If you don't go 1-2canons per mineral line you flip a coin. If you attack into a zerg without having scouting informations about his army size, you flip a coin. I don't get why people think it is cornercutting if zerg plays without some roaches+roach speed + zerglings with zergling speed in ZvP, without an anticollossus spire, without scouting overseers, without preemtive evo+spores+extra queens against dts and air and without a reasonable hive timing, but Protoss shouldn't need a general setup to be able to react to the things zerg can throw at him. Deal with it... If you go colossus>HT and no blink and he plays mutalisks he simply countered what you did and you lost... Adapt your playstyle (like most korean protoss players do right now... blink is not optional, templars are not optional, a lot of scouting is not optional, a 3rd around 10mins is not optional, canons are not optional... if you want to play a reasonable macrogame without cornercutting in ZvP)
Well your little scenario here is fine and dandy if you're playing versus a bronze zerg -_-
You don't account for a few things: Most Zergs nowadays go for Roaches first, then Mutas. This forces the Protoss to throw down a robo, which is useless versus the impending mutas. Then the Zerg can just deny the third with roaches and lings, counterattack until its 4 bases vs 2, then make a massive switch into Muta.
No Zerg just goes muta anymore, if thats the case, yeah then we can react to it, but Zergs are getting smarter now, and rightfully so not doing that.
Also that "setup" you talk about dies hardcore to just about any other Zerg strategy there is, which makes it impractical in general.
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On December 15 2011 07:26 xlava wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 02:50 Big J wrote:On December 15 2011 01:36 RehnFreemark wrote:On December 15 2011 01:24 Big J wrote:
But again I want to point out, that even with the phoenix being a great mutalisk counter, I'm not saying you should throw down double starport as reaction to mutalisks. You should only build phoenixes against mutalisks if you already happen to have 2starports up. Which is fine, but the consequence is that if you don't already have 2 stargates up, your only way to go (other than the already discussed very all in early timing push) is resorting to subpar counter units (stalkers) and trying to tech up to the very deep and costly storm templars, which in the meanwhile leaves your 2-3 bases open to continuous harassment, while you have absolutely 0 chance to harass your opponent yourself. Unless zerg uses mutas very badly (-> doesn't really harass), the mere economic abyss that will be created between you and him will crush you, possibly even if you reach storm templars (basically you can keep going for a while, he'll throw stuff and stuff at you and sooner or later you won't have any more money to reinforce). The simple thing we are asking is to allow us the possibility to switch to phoenix as a proper counter, I'll tell you what I personally would be ok with a phoenix nerf such as removing the graviton beam ability to allow the unit to just become a more all-round viable resource vs mutalisks. I think it would be a fine compromise since honestly graviton beam is only used as a harassment tool because Protoss don't really have much else to harass with. Just to say, it's not like we want phoenix to become a god unit period. I'm sorry, but you're talking as if nothing happened in that 12-13mins of the game, before mutalisks usually are being built. If no big engagement has taken place you should be on robo+twilight+blink+3 fully saturated bases against 3-4 zerg bases at that time. You should have 20+ stalkers+ a reasonable zealot/sentry count at that time and Templar Archives coming. Pretty much every mutalisk win comes from Protoss not having this setup... Well then you're dead if mutas are coming. At the current metagame I just think that it is HT>Colossus. If you go colossus before templar you flip a coin. If you don't go blink you flip a coin. If you don't go 1-2canons per mineral line you flip a coin. If you attack into a zerg without having scouting informations about his army size, you flip a coin. I don't get why people think it is cornercutting if zerg plays without some roaches+roach speed + zerglings with zergling speed in ZvP, without an anticollossus spire, without scouting overseers, without preemtive evo+spores+extra queens against dts and air and without a reasonable hive timing, but Protoss shouldn't need a general setup to be able to react to the things zerg can throw at him. Deal with it... If you go colossus>HT and no blink and he plays mutalisks he simply countered what you did and you lost... Adapt your playstyle (like most korean protoss players do right now... blink is not optional, templars are not optional, a lot of scouting is not optional, a 3rd around 10mins is not optional, canons are not optional... if you want to play a reasonable macrogame without cornercutting in ZvP) Well your little scenario here is fine and dandy if you're playing versus a bronze zerg -_- You don't account for a few things: Most Zergs nowadays go for Roaches first, then Mutas. This forces the Protoss to throw down a robo, which is useless versus the impending mutas. Then the Zerg can just deny the third with roaches and lings, counterattack until its 4 bases vs 2, then make a massive switch into Muta. No Zerg just goes muta anymore, if thats the case, yeah then we can react to it, but Zergs are getting smarter now, and rightfully so not doing that. Also that "setup" you talk about dies hardcore to just about any other Zerg strategy there is, which makes it impractical in general.
Even so, to effectively switch into muta you need to save a lot of ressources. If the protoss is not behind, the zerg simply can't afford it.
The protoss should also already have blink if the muta are so delayed. Blink stalkers are very effective against both muta and roaches.
I'm sorry, but if the zerg manages to get safely 4 bases running while protoss is still on 2 base after a roach aggression, it just means the protoss is already far behind. Don't blame the muta.
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I think this is a good time to bump this thread, considering how MC vs DRG is going.
Mutas just provide so much map control, and on a large cross-position map like that, its so hard for MC to move out without forcing 5+ cannons in each base... Going collosus (which is needed vs roach/hydra/ling/infestor) instead of fast blink seems to be suicide, but going blink first without collosus is also super risky if the zerg plays normal.
Its a rough matchup.. I dont think Tempests will solve it UNLESS it is like the hots custom map on bnet right now, where tempests actually move as fast as voidrays. If they are as slow as they were at Blizzcon, protoss is gonna be in trouble =[
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On December 15 2011 18:35 Snowen wrote:
I think this is a good time to bump this thread, considering how MC vs DRG is going.
It's not. MC got a greedy and punished for it.
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On December 15 2011 18:35 Snowen wrote:
I think this is a good time to bump this thread, considering how MC vs DRG is going.
Mutas just provide so much map control, and on a large cross-position map like that, its so hard for MC to move out without forcing 5+ cannons in each base... Going collosus (which is needed vs roach/hydra/ling/infestor) instead of fast blink seems to be suicide, but going blink first without collosus is also super risky if the zerg plays normal.
Its a rough matchup.. I dont think Tempests will solve it UNLESS it is like the hots custom map on bnet right now, where tempests actually move as fast as voidrays. If they are as slow as they were at Blizzcon, protoss is gonna be in trouble =[
I don't think VR's speed would be enough, considering muta's ridiculous speed and acceleration. Tempest should be faster, or it's just the same scenario - muta are everywhere, but you physically can not be here and there in time.
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As a P, I have to say that Mutalisks are OP on certain large maps.
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On December 16 2011 14:23 Jimbo77 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 18:35 Snowen wrote:
I think this is a good time to bump this thread, considering how MC vs DRG is going.
Mutas just provide so much map control, and on a large cross-position map like that, its so hard for MC to move out without forcing 5+ cannons in each base... Going collosus (which is needed vs roach/hydra/ling/infestor) instead of fast blink seems to be suicide, but going blink first without collosus is also super risky if the zerg plays normal.
Its a rough matchup.. I dont think Tempests will solve it UNLESS it is like the hots custom map on bnet right now, where tempests actually move as fast as voidrays. If they are as slow as they were at Blizzcon, protoss is gonna be in trouble =[ I don't think VR's speed would be enough, considering muta's ridiculous speed and acceleration. Tempest should be faster, or it's just the same scenario - muta are everywhere, but you physically can not be here and there in time.
Pfffft, in HotS you don't get tempest, you replicate an infestor and fungal the flock. Storm and job done.
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On December 16 2011 14:23 Jimbo77 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 18:35 Snowen wrote:
I think this is a good time to bump this thread, considering how MC vs DRG is going.
Mutas just provide so much map control, and on a large cross-position map like that, its so hard for MC to move out without forcing 5+ cannons in each base... Going collosus (which is needed vs roach/hydra/ling/infestor) instead of fast blink seems to be suicide, but going blink first without collosus is also super risky if the zerg plays normal.
Its a rough matchup.. I dont think Tempests will solve it UNLESS it is like the hots custom map on bnet right now, where tempests actually move as fast as voidrays. If they are as slow as they were at Blizzcon, protoss is gonna be in trouble =[ I don't think VR's speed would be enough, considering muta's ridiculous speed and acceleration. Tempest should be faster, or it's just the same scenario - muta are everywhere, but you physically can not be here and there in time.
well I was trying to be fair; if tempests were as fast as mutas, obviously that would be ridiculous.. If tempests are as fast as voidrays, least they are somewhat mobile enough to provide some defense. If they are the speed of the mothership (which they seem to be from the blizzcon videos) its going to be a joke how bad they will be.
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On December 16 2011 14:43 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 14:23 Jimbo77 wrote:On December 15 2011 18:35 Snowen wrote:
I think this is a good time to bump this thread, considering how MC vs DRG is going.
Mutas just provide so much map control, and on a large cross-position map like that, its so hard for MC to move out without forcing 5+ cannons in each base... Going collosus (which is needed vs roach/hydra/ling/infestor) instead of fast blink seems to be suicide, but going blink first without collosus is also super risky if the zerg plays normal.
Its a rough matchup.. I dont think Tempests will solve it UNLESS it is like the hots custom map on bnet right now, where tempests actually move as fast as voidrays. If they are as slow as they were at Blizzcon, protoss is gonna be in trouble =[ I don't think VR's speed would be enough, considering muta's ridiculous speed and acceleration. Tempest should be faster, or it's just the same scenario - muta are everywhere, but you physically can not be here and there in time. Pfffft, in HotS you don't get tempest, you replicate an infestor and fungal the flock. Storm and job done.
And that will obviously be an AWESOME counter; and why im excited about HotS.. The problem though is that If they dont make an infestor, you cant replicate one; im assuming smart zergs doing the 20 spinecrawler / pure muta strat wouldnt be stupid enough to get an infestor for the protoss to replicate.
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On December 16 2011 14:44 Snowen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 14:43 Kharnage wrote:On December 16 2011 14:23 Jimbo77 wrote:On December 15 2011 18:35 Snowen wrote:
I think this is a good time to bump this thread, considering how MC vs DRG is going.
Mutas just provide so much map control, and on a large cross-position map like that, its so hard for MC to move out without forcing 5+ cannons in each base... Going collosus (which is needed vs roach/hydra/ling/infestor) instead of fast blink seems to be suicide, but going blink first without collosus is also super risky if the zerg plays normal.
Its a rough matchup.. I dont think Tempests will solve it UNLESS it is like the hots custom map on bnet right now, where tempests actually move as fast as voidrays. If they are as slow as they were at Blizzcon, protoss is gonna be in trouble =[ I don't think VR's speed would be enough, considering muta's ridiculous speed and acceleration. Tempest should be faster, or it's just the same scenario - muta are everywhere, but you physically can not be here and there in time. Pfffft, in HotS you don't get tempest, you replicate an infestor and fungal the flock. Storm and job done. And that will obviously be an AWESOME counter; and why im excited about HotS.. The problem though is that If they dont make an infestor, you cant replicate one; im assuming smart zergs doing the 20 spinecrawler / pure muta strat wouldnt be stupid enough to get an infestor for the protoss to replicate.
You're being silly. Open pheonix +1. Just keep massing pheonix / VR until they get the infestor. They'll get it, I assure you.
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Well, DRG vs MC in Game 1.The moment his stargate opening fail to do any damage,it was over as long as the zerg play it right.DRG went for a counterattack with roaches and lings and attempt to deny the third while stockpiling gases and minerals to pump 13 mutas.Plus, MC transition into robo tech instead of twilight council plus he lost a few sentries and used up a lot of forcefield on his other sentries.Smart thing is DRG hide those mutalisk and use lings to attempt in denying the third and then burrowing them forcing MC observer to pull back and making MC not see the mutalisk till the last moment.From then on, DRG just did harassment with his mutalisk and later did counterattacks and multi pronged attack forcing MC to go for the base trade but lost since DRG just have too much stuff.If MC had immediately transition into blink+HT instead of going for collo tech.Things would have turned out differently.All DRG had to do was keep trading armies with MC for those expensive sentries and collo.
Mutas are powerful but not OP.Mutas are good for counterattacks and backstabbing and harassment but they suck at direct fight.If protoss just placed cannons and defend properly with storm and blink,they will be fine.
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would it really break the game to give phoenix an additional +5 vs. biological? Only other thing it would affect is how strong the phoenix are vs. Zealots, Hydras and maybe early game roach when the numbers are not too high. In the case of hydras, if critical mass is reached it doesn't matter what the dps of the phoenix are. In the case of Roaches and Zealots, the limitation of phoenix in those type of fights has to do with energy, not dps.
In my opinion, yes, giving Phoenixes a little over 27 dps against hydras and mutas would be insane
There's also queens and ovies. But Ovies are already dead when caught by phoenix and the same can be said of queens that are away from spore support.
Then why not give banelings 5 speed, cause marines are already dead if the marines are away from tank support.
The argument fails, because queens are NOT supposed to just die instantly when a queen is more than two hexes away from a spore, the same with overlords. The reason Phoenix (and other units) don't have buffed DPS like this is because the attacked units are supposed to have a fighting chance to live, or at least run for cover.
When the phoenix was first introduced, it was an air superiority fighter with an AOE attack that drained energy, clearly blizzard wanted to make it counter the muta directly; the way that thors counter muta.
How would phoenix attacks draining energy have anything to do with countering muta?
They can also make it a +10 for units that are both light AND biological. This would limit the categorized units to Zealots, Hydras, marines, and mutas. The idea of making a tier 3 unit that hard counters the tier 2 unit hardcore is extremely stupid - it leads to this polarized style of strategies and counter strategies, ie ==> I build unit X and rule the game until you get Unit Y which makes unit X completely useless.
I agree, but isn't that what the opposite of what you're arguing for elsewhere?
You want to make the Phoenix a super hard counter to muta, so even a few can fight off herds of mutas; but here you say that you don't want a Y unit (phoenix) make X units (muta) obsolete. I am a little confused on why you would say that; someone tell me if I read that wrong or right...
I also want to add this point: Zerg players were in an uproar about the removal of fungal as an anti-air ability, about how game breaking it was that nothing can catch phoenix (which cannot attack buildings...). Well, I dont' see why protoss cannot make a similar argument for muta?
The result of that argument was that fungal was eventually nerfed(and is no longer an AA, in your opinion); isn't that the opposite of what you want in your analogy? (Which would lead to a ground based AOE of Protoss getting nerfed?)
Blink stalkers are not even that much more mobile than hydras on creep, and the functional solution would be the same --> build spores and attack whereaas toss builds cannons and attacks. No, but Blink stalkers:
a) Have blink: great in most situations, and amazingly fucking amazing in anti muta sitations (think about it, really).
b) Are a unit Protoss REALLY likes to get against Zerg, its an important unit that is very powerful in almost all situations; as well as being a core unit in any good deathball. Hydra, on the other hand, are a unit Zerg almost always wants to avoid, to build as few as possible of (excluding 1 or 2 very rare timings), the Hydra is too gas costly to allow for production of infestors/mutas/BLs/Ultras at the same time, and is too vulnerable and slow off creep, melting without tanking support to most armies.
(I will admit Hydras technically have more DPS than stalkers, but if you're engaging mutas directly with hydras/stalkers for any decent amount of time, you've either already lost or are about to win.
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On December 15 2011 01:31 msjakofsky wrote:
glaive damage argument is kinda moot since it's so vs every single unit in the game, it's not a muta vs penis problem
No, damnit! It is a muta vs penis problem. The toss penis doesn't have time to become a super hard counter before the ball gets out of control.
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Mutas are like late game harass units that are long term and just completely destroy probe lines in seconds then fly away while even being great in a straight engage against toss at times when they only have stalkers for aa
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Most of the arguments I read about the fungal AA nerf back then was how ZvZ would devolve into a muta fest without air Fungal. Phoenixes were a somewhat secondary concern, IIRC.
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I honestly hate the idea of removing the carrier and replacing it with the tempest.
1) A frisbee throwing cylon raider clone does not make for a proper capital ship (this is the "awful design" argument)
2) Don't see it filling any particular role; don't think it's needed; mutas are not as good as to consider them op
3) Gonna miss the carrier (really bad)
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EPT
