On December 14 2011 21:55 Jermstuddog wrote: Can people stop suggesting that Phoenix's need to be better vs Mutalisks?
Comparing the units directly:
Phoenix costs 50 more minerals. Phoenix are faster. Phoenix attack faster. Phoenix have longer range. Phoenix hit harder. Phoenix scale better with upgrades Phoenix have more health Phoenix build faster Phoenix can fire while moving
There is literally no way Mutalisks can beat Phoenix in a straight-up, even fight. For that specific unit relationship, the Phoenix is more than OK.
Stop suggesting it needs a buff.
There is literally no way a straight up, even fight can exist between mutas and phoenix because of mobility and difference production capability. Phoenix need to be able to stop mutas harassment, not simply win in a fight that will never take place.
On December 14 2011 21:55 Jermstuddog wrote: Can people stop suggesting that Phoenix's need to be better vs Mutalisks?
Comparing the units directly:
Phoenix costs 50 more minerals. Phoenix are faster. Phoenix attack faster. Phoenix have longer range. Phoenix hit harder. Phoenix scale better with upgrades Phoenix have more health Phoenix build faster Phoenix can fire while moving
There is literally no way Mutalisks can beat Phoenix in a straight-up, even fight. For that specific unit relationship, the Phoenix is more than OK.
Stop suggesting it needs a buff.
Stalkers beat mutas straight up too, but that's not the point people are making. Mutas can be produced en masse faster, can be tech switched into far easier, and mutas can actually kill your opponent. Making 20 phoenixes to counter 30 mutas is not a reasonable option. The main 'issue', if there is one, would be that phoenixes don't scale in the way, say, corsairs did: more mutas = individual sairs are stronger. Thus, while they didn't shut mutas down (and zerg had other units to handle them), they provided a cost-effective way to defend.
On December 14 2011 22:28 RehnFreemark wrote: There is literally no way a straight up, even fight can exist between mutas and phoenix because of mobility and difference production capability. Phoenix need to be able to stop mutas harassment, not simply win in a fight that will never take place.
Because of mobility? What are you talking about? Phoenixes are more mobile than mutalisks and can shoot while moving. Mutas have literally no way to escape without taking heavy losses.
On December 14 2011 21:55 Jermstuddog wrote: Can people stop suggesting that Phoenix's need to be better vs Mutalisks?
Comparing the units directly:
Phoenix costs 50 more minerals. Phoenix are faster. Phoenix attack faster. Phoenix have longer range. Phoenix hit harder. Phoenix scale better with upgrades Phoenix have more health Phoenix build faster Phoenix can fire while moving
There is literally no way Mutalisks can beat Phoenix in a straight-up, even fight. For that specific unit relationship, the Phoenix is more than OK.
Stop suggesting it needs a buff.
There is literally no way a straight up, even fight can exist between mutas and phoenix because of mobility and difference production capability. Phoenix need to be able to stop mutas harassment, not simply win in a fight that will never take place.
Your argument makes no sense.
Phoenix dictate when battles happen due to their superior mobility as well as win those fights they choose to engage in due to their superior combat prowess.
Phoenix are also available earlier according to typical building build times and considering gas is the limiting factor in muta production, not larva or hatcheries, being able to build mutas 14 at a time is irrelevant because you can never afford that.
The phoenix is a fine counter to the mutalisk, stop crying.
On December 14 2011 21:55 Jermstuddog wrote: Can people stop suggesting that Phoenix's need to be better vs Mutalisks?
Comparing the units directly:
Phoenix costs 50 more minerals. Phoenix are faster. Phoenix attack faster. Phoenix have longer range. Phoenix hit harder. Phoenix scale better with upgrades Phoenix have more health Phoenix build faster Phoenix can fire while moving
There is literally no way Mutalisks can beat Phoenix in a straight-up, even fight. For that specific unit relationship, the Phoenix is more than OK.
Stop suggesting it needs a buff.
There is literally no way a straight up, even fight can exist between mutas and phoenix because of mobility and difference production capability. Phoenix need to be able to stop mutas harassment, not simply win in a fight that will never take place.
phoenix attack only scales better if the mutalisks have zero armor upgrade. at even armor vs attack upgrades they have absolutely the same damage as at 0/0, and they do virtually no damage to corruptors.
also phoenix ground attack value is so much worse than mutalisk it's not even comparable. you can have 30 supply in phoenix and make mutalisks obsolete but you'll have a 30% smaller ground army.
you're right though in that, mutalisks can't fight phoenix at even numbers.
If the protoss scout the spire shortly after it starts building, he has time to double stargate, get 8 phoenixes, and +1 air attack before the muta reaches his base.
8 A-move +1 phoenixes win against 15muta. So, for players above platinium, 6 phoenixes should be enough to defend against 15muta.
So yeah, pheonixes hard counter muta really effeciently. Now, it's true that if you have 15muta arriving in your base, phoenixes won't save you if you don't already have double stargates.
But you know, when a zerg has 15helions at his front, he won't be able to stop it either by putting down a roach warren.
If protoss doen't scout, he deserve to loose. Even if you scout it late, it's still simple to deal with : just attack to force the zerg to spend his ressources on other units.
Most of the time when you see muta in ZvP, the zerg goes muta AFTER getting the advantage in the game (e.g. after crushing a push, or after a huge army trade in the game where the zerg had a clear economic advantage). Although, it's true there are some specific maps where muta are good.
On December 14 2011 23:56 Jermstuddog wrote: The phoenix is a fine counter to the mutalisk, stop crying.
Not practically. Because there's basically two scenariis:
1. Protoss got phoenixes earlier than Zerg, Zerg can tech switch to something else or just defend and drone, phoenixes become quickly useless.
2. Protoss got phoenixes later than Zerg, in which case he won't ever catch up in prod, and can't defend the harass.
There's pretty much no middle ground here, that's the problem. If Protoss could react with a stargate and still have chances versus a mass mutas army in the mid game, nobody would complain. As it is now, it's just not possible.
On December 15 2011 00:57 Luckbox wrote: Is this the Nadas body thread of SC2? Son, I am dissapoint.
word
Face it, this thread is meaningless. In a way, mutas are op. In a way, they are not. That's it. Can we please stop debating this? It's been like 100 pages and months of discussion, and we've come absolutely nowhere...
On December 14 2011 23:56 Jermstuddog wrote: Your argument makes no sense.
Phoenix dictate when battles happen due to their superior mobility as well as win those fights they choose to engage in due to their superior combat prowess.
Phoenix are also available earlier according to typical building build times and considering gas is the limiting factor in muta production, not larva or hatcheries, being able to build mutas 14 at a time is irrelevant because you can never afford that.
The phoenix is a fine counter to the mutalisk, stop crying.
Yeah phoenix is a fine counter to the mutalisk, no single protoss pro player ever makes phoenix as a counter to the mutalisk because they are dumb. Do we even play the same game? There is absolutely no realistic scenario where you can produce a high enough number of phoenix to counter a mass muta play, because to do that you would have to cut stalkers, which are the only fast producing enough units you can use as anti air to defend your bases, and even if you tried by the time you go 10 or so phoenix the zerg could easily have 40 mutas if he chose. If he saw you go heavy into phoenix (easy since he can scout you any time he wants with mutas) he can even easily decides to transition into hydras or at the very least zergling/banelings and you would have wasted tons of time and resources into useless phoenix until then, especially because, ONCE AGAIN, when you are under heavy muta harassment you cannot pressure him in ANY way and he is free to expand and tech as much as he wants.
Stop looking at the 100vs100 youtube battles and start playing the real game please.
LOL @ "being able to produce 14 mutalisks at a time is irrelevant"
On December 14 2011 21:55 Jermstuddog wrote: Can people stop suggesting that Phoenix's need to be better vs Mutalisks?
Comparing the units directly:
Phoenix costs 50 more minerals. Phoenix are faster. Phoenix attack faster. Phoenix have longer range. Phoenix hit harder. Phoenix scale better with upgrades Phoenix have more health Phoenix build faster Phoenix can fire while moving
There is literally no way Mutalisks can beat Phoenix in a straight-up, even fight. For that specific unit relationship, the Phoenix is more than OK.
Stop suggesting it needs a buff.
There is literally no way a straight up, even fight can exist between mutas and phoenix because of mobility and difference production capability. Phoenix need to be able to stop mutas harassment, not simply win in a fight that will never take place.
On December 15 2011 00:57 Nyast wrote: 2. Protoss got phoenixes later than Zerg, in which case he won't ever catch up in prod, and can't defend the harass.
Naaaaa man you kidding'? 14 mutas at a time is irrelevant when you can go double stargate!
On December 14 2011 21:55 Jermstuddog wrote: Can people stop suggesting that Phoenix's need to be better vs Mutalisks?
Comparing the units directly:
Phoenix costs 50 more minerals. Phoenix are faster. Phoenix attack faster. Phoenix have longer range. Phoenix hit harder. Phoenix scale better with upgrades Phoenix have more health Phoenix build faster Phoenix can fire while moving
There is literally no way Mutalisks can beat Phoenix in a straight-up, even fight. For that specific unit relationship, the Phoenix is more than OK.
Stop suggesting it needs a buff.
There is literally no way a straight up, even fight can exist between mutas and phoenix because of mobility and difference production capability. Phoenix need to be able to stop mutas harassment, not simply win in a fight that will never take place.
phoenix attack only scales better if the mutalisks have zero armor upgrade. at even armor vs attack upgrades they have absolutely the same damage as at 0/0, and they do virtually no damage to corruptors.
also phoenix ground attack value is so much worse than mutalisk it's not even comparable. you can have 30 supply in phoenix and make mutalisks obsolete but you'll have a 30% smaller ground army.
you're right though in that, mutalisks can't fight phoenix at even numbers.
but the armor upgrade starts to deny the bounce, as bounce is only upgraded by +0.333/+0.111. So like with every mutalisk vs "unit" comparison the upgrade battle is favored for the "unit". (--> 3/3 vs 3/3 mutalisks only do 9/1 damage, while 0/0 vs 0/0 mutalisks do 9/3/1 which is a ~23% decrease in damage; for phoenix the damage output stays completly the same 5(+5)*2)
Furthermore: 30 of 200 supply is 15%. If you assume 70workers it is still 30/130 which is still only 23,1%. Also if you have the phoenixes and he has the mutalisks, he will have the same supply problem...
But again I want to point out, that even with the phoenix being a great mutalisk counter, I'm not saying you should throw down double starport as reaction to mutalisks. You should only build phoenixes against mutalisks if you already happen to have 2starports up. Btw, the same would be true for a corsairlike unit in SC2 in my opinion... (corsair vs mutalisk was only reasonable because the corsair was part of the protoss gameplan all along and you didn't need 2starports, due to the reduced zerg production and the fact that it was not possible to go for more than 12 mutalisks; and due to the 12mutalisk boundary there was no way to reasonably magicbox in sc:bw against splash)
While mutas might be overpowered in some ways, they simply cannot be nerfed, there is no way to do so without making it completely useless, what the hell do you want to do? Reduce damage or speed? It will make mutas so retarded, PvZ will again be something so simple for toss, that it will make no sense to lose anymore.
On December 14 2011 21:55 Jermstuddog wrote: Can people stop suggesting that Phoenix's need to be better vs Mutalisks?
Comparing the units directly:
Phoenix costs 50 more minerals. Phoenix are faster. Phoenix attack faster. Phoenix have longer range. Phoenix hit harder. Phoenix scale better with upgrades Phoenix have more health Phoenix build faster Phoenix can fire while moving
There is literally no way Mutalisks can beat Phoenix in a straight-up, even fight. For that specific unit relationship, the Phoenix is more than OK.
Stop suggesting it needs a buff.
There is literally no way a straight up, even fight can exist between mutas and phoenix because of mobility and difference production capability. Phoenix need to be able to stop mutas harassment, not simply win in a fight that will never take place.
phoenix attack only scales better if the mutalisks have zero armor upgrade. at even armor vs attack upgrades they have absolutely the same damage as at 0/0, and they do virtually no damage to corruptors.
also phoenix ground attack value is so much worse than mutalisk it's not even comparable. you can have 30 supply in phoenix and make mutalisks obsolete but you'll have a 30% smaller ground army.
you're right though in that, mutalisks can't fight phoenix at even numbers.
but the armor upgrade starts to deny the bounce, as bounce is only upgraded by +0.333/+0.111. So like with every mutalisk vs "unit" comparison the upgrade battle is favored for the "unit". (--> 3/3 vs 3/3 mutalisks only do 9/1 damage, while 0/0 vs 0/0 mutalisks do 9/3/1 which is a ~23% decrease in damage; for phoenix the damage output stays completly the same 5(+5)*2)
Furthermore: 30 of 200 supply is 15%. If you assume 70workers it is still 30/130 which is still only 23,1%. Also if you have the phoenixes and he has the mutalisks, he will have the same supply problem...
But again I want to point out, that even with the phoenix being a great mutalisk counter, I'm not saying you should throw down double starport as reaction to mutalisks. You should only build phoenixes against mutalisks if you already happen to have 2starports up. Btw, the same would be true for a corsairlike unit in SC2 in my opinion... (corsair vs mutalisk was only reasonable because the corsair was part of the protoss gameplan all along and you didn't need 2starports, due to the reduced zerg production and the fact that it was not possible to go for more than 12 mutalisks; and due to the 12mutalisk boundary there was no way to reasonably magicbox in sc:bw against splash)
glaive damage argument is kinda moot since it's so vs every single unit in the game, it's not a muta vs penis problem
and i assumed 70 workers and said a rough number so yeah it's just 23,1 %. but it's not the same supply problem for zerg since mutalisks can act as an anti ground force much better (penix are good vs hydras in small numbers and that's it basically). you can kill buildings, massive units, harass nonstop etc vs mutas
still not saying they're op but they're absolutely not the same as phoenix in the vs ground regard
EPT
