EPT[D]Are mutalisks overpowered in WOL?? - Page 93
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eFonSG
United States255 Posts
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On January 20 2012 03:12 Arcanefrost wrote: Speaking for zvp: Usually they do roach/ling into muta and it's so deadly if you're not 100% ready. On a map like taldarim altar it's very hard to defend three bases because of the lay-out. If you think the spire is just for corruptors you will just lose the game instantly. The main thing I feel like is too strong about mutas is that they instantly shut down all agression because fo a basetrade threat. You simply cannot move out until you have mothership/archon/ht. This leads to 40min games where one mistake can easily cost you the game. It's also so easy for the zerg to take the entire map and tech to infestors and broodlords freely. It's ridiculous atm if you ask me T.T Taldarim altar is burtal against mutas. There is no way to move out and feel safe. My main issue with mutas it is so hard to punish them without an AOE. Storm is not enough, since the zerg either has to mess up or sign up to get hit with it. Cannons are not sufficent, since you need so many. Even if I sign up for the basetrade, the game becomes this messed up game of wack-a-mole, where I try to keep my buildings alive while hunting down random bases and buildings. The whole thing gives the zerg to much control over how the game will progress. Excited for the Tempest. Anything that will allow me to take a chunk out of the muta flock. | ||
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Mjolnir
912 Posts
On December 15 2011 07:26 xlava wrote: Well your little scenario here is fine and dandy if you're playing versus a bronze zerg -_- You don't account for a few things: Most Zergs nowadays go for Roaches first, then Mutas. This forces the Protoss to throw down a robo, which is useless versus the impending mutas. Then the Zerg can just deny the third with roaches and lings, counterattack until its 4 bases vs 2, then make a massive switch into Muta. No Zerg just goes muta anymore, if thats the case, yeah then we can react to it, but Zergs are getting smarter now, and rightfully so not doing that. Also that "setup" you talk about dies hardcore to just about any other Zerg strategy there is, which makes it impractical in general. Oh my God, this whole thread is silly. Everyone is looking at the situation like the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence and this post is a great example. You do realize that you are complaining about a tech switch nullifying your counter to it, how Zergs go roach, you go Robotics, and then when Zergs go air your Robotics tech is useless. Zerg (and every race in the game) deals with this in some form or another - all the time. It's part of the game. How many times have you gone air to force Hydras, only to switch into Colossi - at which point the Zerg is an idiot and/or dead if they continue to make Hydras? A lot, probably. It's part of the game. Everyone is talking like a tech switch into 20 mutas is instant, and totally free. Fuck me, that's a shit-tonne of resources. I don't know about you, but at my level, when a toss is pressuring hard consistently, it's pretty fucking hard to stockpile 2000 mineral and 2000 gas on a whim when I feel like mutas would be ideal. If you think that's the way things play out, I'd suggest that it follows that at that point in the game you should be as prepared for mutas as you claim Zergs should be able to make them - moreover, your basic counter to mutas is a unit that should always be part of your army comp. If you lost your entire army to Roach/Ling and then the Zerg dumps 20 mutas on you and you lose because you a) had the wrong tech or b) didn't have the army to stop the muta, I can tell you right now that the 20 mutas aren't the reason you're losing. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27477 Posts
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Kluey
Canada1197 Posts
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
On January 20 2012 07:39 Kluey wrote: Mutalisk isn't over powered it's just that Protoss has nothing good to deal with it. We need khadaryian amulet. The problem is stalkers are terrible cost-effective wise vs muta. KA would be op in pvt I think ^^ | ||
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Ravomat
Germany427 Posts
On January 21 2012 01:00 Arcanefrost wrote: The problem is stalkers are terrible cost-effective wise vs muta. KA would be op in pvt I think ^^ It wouldn't need to be the old KA. It would suffice if Blizzard gave Protoss the BW KA which increases starting energy by 12.5. This way HT only need ~20s until they can storm instead of ~40s which it is now. | ||
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
On January 21 2012 01:03 Ravomat wrote: It wouldn't need to be the old KA. It would suffice if Blizzard gave Protoss the BW KA which increases starting energy by 12.5. This way HT only need ~20s until they can storm instead of ~40s which it is now. That would be good but Blizzard seems to have a profound fear of numbers that can't be divided by 25. | ||
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turamn
United States1374 Posts
On January 20 2012 03:36 Mjolnir wrote: Oh my God, this whole thread is silly. Everyone is looking at the situation like the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence and this post is a great example. You do realize that you are complaining about a tech switch nullifying your counter to it, how Zergs go roach, you go Robotics, and then when Zergs go air your Robotics tech is useless. Zerg (and every race in the game) deals with this in some form or another - all the time. It's part of the game. How many times have you gone air to force Hydras, only to switch into Colossi - at which point the Zerg is an idiot and/or dead if they continue to make Hydras? A lot, probably. It's part of the game. Everyone is talking like a tech switch into 20 mutas is instant, and totally free. Fuck me, that's a shit-tonne of resources. I don't know about you, but at my level, when a toss is pressuring hard consistently, it's pretty fucking hard to stockpile 2000 mineral and 2000 gas on a whim when I feel like mutas would be ideal. If you think that's the way things play out, I'd suggest that it follows that at that point in the game you should be as prepared for mutas as you claim Zergs should be able to make them - moreover, your basic counter to mutas is a unit that should always be part of your army comp. If you lost your entire army to Roach/Ling and then the Zerg dumps 20 mutas on you and you lose because you a) had the wrong tech or b) didn't have the army to stop the muta, I can tell you right now that the 20 mutas aren't the reason you're losing. What about when the Zerg throws down 5+ Spines at his choke and drones happily behind, free to stockpile resources until he has a spire and can make 15-ish Mutas? Granted this is a tell to any intelligent Protoss player, they still have to fall back and prepare accordingly, which, if they opened robo, is already going to cost them. For example - on Tal'darim Altar, Protoss FFE's into a 6 gate, expecting Mutalisks. Protoss moves out at 8 minutes or so, only to find that the Zerg has made 6 spine crawlers at their ramp, has queens to transfuse and a handful of roaches or lings. No Protoss is going to engage into that. What did it cost the Zerg? 6 Drones and whatever the cost of spines is. No gas at all. Now Protoss has to run back across the map and set up cannons and a third base. Pop your Mutas and proceed to harass/back stab as needed to keep the Protoss on 3 bases. Zerg is then free to do absolutely whatever they please. You already know what unit comp the Protoss player will shoot for, so you can double expand and drone up to your ideal drone count, while teching to whatever your preferred counter will be to the anti-Muta force. Spread your creep out, make spines in the middle of the map and force them to engage you there, if they want a chance to win the game. Meanwhile, you can fly in with your Muta's, de-power gateways or kill anything that isn't protected by cannons and proceed to collect your free win. Hell, if you're lucky, the Protoss player will just get frustrated and attack before max, forcing an un-winnable base trade. | ||
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willoc
Canada1530 Posts
On January 20 2012 03:36 Mjolnir wrote: Oh my God, this whole thread is silly. Everyone is looking at the situation like the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence and this post is a great example. You do realize that you are complaining about a tech switch nullifying your counter to it, how Zergs go roach, you go Robotics, and then when Zergs go air your Robotics tech is useless. Zerg (and every race in the game) deals with this in some form or another - all the time. It's part of the game. How many times have you gone air to force Hydras, only to switch into Colossi - at which point the Zerg is an idiot and/or dead if they continue to make Hydras? A lot, probably. It's part of the game. Everyone is talking like a tech switch into 20 mutas is instant, and totally free. Fuck me, that's a shit-tonne of resources. I don't know about you, but at my level, when a toss is pressuring hard consistently, it's pretty fucking hard to stockpile 2000 mineral and 2000 gas on a whim when I feel like mutas would be ideal. If you think that's the way things play out, I'd suggest that it follows that at that point in the game you should be as prepared for mutas as you claim Zergs should be able to make them - moreover, your basic counter to mutas is a unit that should always be part of your army comp. If you lost your entire army to Roach/Ling and then the Zerg dumps 20 mutas on you and you lose because you a) had the wrong tech or b) didn't have the army to stop the muta, I can tell you right now that the 20 mutas aren't the reason you're losing. Amen. | ||
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PureBalls
Austria383 Posts
On January 20 2012 07:37 Wombat_NI wrote: They aren't overpowered, but muta styles on big maps in ZvP make for some of the worst games to play and observe possible. I dislike the Tempest concept, would rather have had some other, lower tech 'soft' counter to muta play rather than something that can only add to the deathball. Actually no. Tempest will not add to the deathball. You know how a terran makes a couple of thors, and leaves them in the base, while he is pushing with his tanks and marines, and sniping bases? Well thats what the tempest will be for, in the protoss arsenal. Leave a couple at home, and take the rest of the army for a push. However, I dont like the tempest, since it looks like a one-dimensional unit. What will it be good for, except mutas? I really dont know, and I dont expect much, to be honest. And since arc shield (exchange nexus energy for "canons" = free money = problem?) and nexus recall will be available, I think tempest will not be needed to counter mutas. And the terrans will get their mech (2 units will be added to make sure of that). Thats why I would prefer to keep the carriers. I cant see protoss countering heavy mech without them. Tempest wont do anything against that. | ||
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Irratonalys
Germany902 Posts
Then it would finally be a viable anti air unit. | ||
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Arayon
73 Posts
Now you can say that therefore Mutas have a high mobility and extreme map control - AND THATS WHAT I MEAN! If one Protoss Ship can defeat so many Mutas, why should i even build them? | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On January 22 2012 06:54 Arayon wrote: I think they have to reduce Mutas cost, because ATM theyre the most cost-ineffective Unit in the whole game. I mean, 50 Marines with Stim and Shields crush 50 1-1 upgraded Mutas, which means that 2500 Mins defeat 5000/5000 mins/gas. Now you can say that therefore Mutas have a high mobility and extreme map control - AND THATS WHAT I MEAN! If one Protoss Ship can defeat so many Mutas, why should i even build them? You pay the huge price for the single most mobile unit in the game with an amazing snowball effect. In the right hands they more than pay for themselves. edit: why build spinecrawlers protoss can just make colossus and outrange them | ||
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Ziggitz
United States340 Posts
On January 22 2012 06:58 Tyrant0 wrote: You pay the huge price for the single most mobile unit in the game with an amazing snowball effect. In the right hands they more than pay for themselves. edit: why build spinecrawlers protoss can just make colossus and outrange them Actually that would be phoenixes. | ||
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
Phoenix don't go XY on an extreme level nor do they chain attacks, | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
Funny, because DRG went Muta Ling in CROSS positions Antiga against Genius and lost. But yeah, carry on the balance whine. | ||
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Go1den
England116 Posts
If you don't believe mutalisks are the most overpowered unit in the game, you either (a) don't play Protoss or (b) don't use mutalisks correctly. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On January 22 2012 07:04 Flonomenalz wrote: This thread is always entertaining. Funny, because DRG went Muta Ling in CROSS positions Antiga against Genius and lost. But yeah, carry on the balance whine. Correction: He opened roaches against a 6 gate voidray all-in, lost his third as genius secured his own, then transitioned into mutas. | ||
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