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On January 24 2012 17:44 CeroFail wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 21:04 Excludos wrote:On January 23 2012 12:28 CeroFail wrote:
Mutas are not OP at all, in fact, they're probably one of the best units in terms of design as they take skill to use and aren't overpowered since there are so many units which can counter them in each MU. (Infestors, Templar, Thor, Marine, Stalker, Phoenix, Archon, stationary defense, Hydra) I think you're confusing "counters" with "able to do any kind of damage towards". Stalkers certainly doesn't counter mutalisks. Phoenixes have been mentioned before as not viable. Archons do work somewhat, but with enough numbers of mutalisks they can oneshot them, and at that point you can't spread them out to defend all your bases. Canons are properly useless as well when the ball gets bigger. Ironically the only unit that really works is one you didn't mention, the high templar. Think the biggest problem with mutalisks is that their damage increases dramatically the more you get of them, up to the point where they can oneshot an entire worker line.. And at that point, they're pretty much impossible to deal with. I did mention Templar. But anyways, the thing is, depending on how Protoss plays, you'll be able to deny them from getting such a large muta flock and even if they do, correct me if I'm wrong, your deathball which would have probably been modified to include units such as templar, mothership and etc would be able to kill them in a straight up fight. Of course, if a base trade scenario occurs, then it's debatable who would win. Of course, I guess that if they catch you off guard without the correct tech with mass mutas, it would be pretty OP since it'd take too much time to get an appropriate response. Also, I don't have much experience with playing long macro PvZ's against mass muta but couldn't you just leave a few high templar at each base or open stargate?
As protoss you can certainly kill a zerg who goes for fast mutas. The zerg can safely get a large muta flock later, once they have the roaces and spines to defend themselves. The protoss can get multiple observers by this point, so the short version is: by the time zerg can safely get a large muta flock then protoss can easily prepare for it.
Protoss does not modify a deathball to account for mutas. Protoss does not usually make a deathball against mutas but rather go into heavy stalker in the midgame and generally play a more turtle + harass style. If protoss tries to get one big deathball and move across the map then a base race occurs. However, it is not debatable who will win the base race, the zerg will win the base race, hence why protoss only ever goes for it after the game is already lost.
Lategame vs mutas is templar at bases, as you say. It will normally be 2 templar per base along with some cannons. Mutalisks are not strong in the lategame, assuming the protoss survives the midgame with an equal economy then the zerg needs to trade and switch out of mutas quickly.
Once a spire is up, the stargate is only really good for allowing access to the fleet beacon later. Even the very best protoss players (MC etc) tend to fail miserably when using phoenix vs mutas. To be fair though, it takes a brave zerg to go mutas vs MC.
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It actually is the best way and is just fine for you to do. Its the most effective I have faced and seen in GSL when a zerg goes muta. I am glad most tosses don't do this though
And I've faced and seen GSL games where they try that and zerg just roflexpands and takes the map for free.
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I don't really agree that mutas are good to watch. Lately I am seeing more and more games of "Zerg makes a lot of muta, Prototoss is stuck to two bases, runs around in circles then goes for something desperate, it either works or not". how is that good for spectator e-sports? Moreover, the muta metagame stipulates the Protoss to do a 2 base all-in before mutas are out in numbers - either way, I have not seen a good long back-and-forth PvZ in ages. The whole matchup is absurdly lame to watch at the moment. God forbid, but I would rather watch evene PvP now!
The fact that this happens to me - a low leaguer - all the time may be considered irrelevant, but it has come to a stage where it ruins professional games.
On a personal low-league experience, I don't even buy this "mutas are well designed" theory that is based on the "fact" that hey are good for harras, but bad for straight-up fights. I lose most of my PvZ at the moment when the muta ball is big enough to just go, snipe all my HTs and then straight up kill all the stalkers. They can one-shot Archoon, one-shot cannons ... that is VERY different from how they worked in BW.
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On January 24 2012 18:09 Zairair wrote:
And I've faced and seen GSL games where they try that and zerg just roflexpands and takes the map for free.
Templar as defense only comes when protoss has 3 fully operational bases (and wants to move out with his stalkers). Stalkers defend mutas midgame, templar lategame.
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On January 24 2012 18:09 Zairair wrote:Show nested quote +It actually is the best way and is just fine for you to do. Its the most effective I have faced and seen in GSL when a zerg goes muta. I am glad most tosses don't do this though And I've faced and seen GSL games where they try that and zerg just roflexpands and takes the map for free.
Yeah if you are trying it off 2 bases sure that's what'll happen lol you need at least 3 bases as that is when you need to start doing it.
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On January 24 2012 18:11 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 18:09 Zairair wrote:
And I've faced and seen GSL games where they try that and zerg just roflexpands and takes the map for free. Templar as defense only comes when protoss has 3 fully operational bases (and wants to move out with his stalkers). Stalkers defend mutas midgame, templar lategame.
Late game mass muta vs protoss??? Instead of roach/infestor/broodlord? In the GSL? I'm so confused why this theorycrafting is even going on. But okay, yea you can use templar to defend late game EVERYTHING, not just muta?
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On January 24 2012 18:13 Zairair wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 18:11 hzflank wrote:On January 24 2012 18:09 Zairair wrote:
And I've faced and seen GSL games where they try that and zerg just roflexpands and takes the map for free. Templar as defense only comes when protoss has 3 fully operational bases (and wants to move out with his stalkers). Stalkers defend mutas midgame, templar lategame. Late game mass muta vs protoss??? Instead of roach/infestor/broodlord? In the GSL? I'm so confused why this theorycrafting is even going on. But okay, yea you can use templar to defend late game EVERYTHING, not just muta?
well at some point you have to know what is coming at you. if he doesn't go mass muta, you have to eventually switch out mutadefense.
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On January 24 2012 18:13 Zairair wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 18:11 hzflank wrote:On January 24 2012 18:09 Zairair wrote:
And I've faced and seen GSL games where they try that and zerg just roflexpands and takes the map for free. Templar as defense only comes when protoss has 3 fully operational bases (and wants to move out with his stalkers). Stalkers defend mutas midgame, templar lategame. Late game mass muta vs protoss??? Instead of roach/infestor/broodlord? In the GSL? I'm so confused why this theorycrafting is even going on. But okay, yea you can use templar to defend late game EVERYTHING, not just muta?
Lategame as in the time that your main is mining out and you are taking a 4th. If the zerg has gone muta then he wont have broodlord infestor at this point.
Stalkers work fine for defense as long as you are keeping them all at home and letting the zerg take the map. But that is fine as protoss never needs more than 3 operational bases. If you are saying that you cant let the zerg take the map because of broodlord/infestor then that is a different thing altogether, as this thread is about mutas.
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On January 24 2012 18:20 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2012 18:13 Zairair wrote:On January 24 2012 18:11 hzflank wrote:On January 24 2012 18:09 Zairair wrote:
And I've faced and seen GSL games where they try that and zerg just roflexpands and takes the map for free. Templar as defense only comes when protoss has 3 fully operational bases (and wants to move out with his stalkers). Stalkers defend mutas midgame, templar lategame. Late game mass muta vs protoss??? Instead of roach/infestor/broodlord? In the GSL? I'm so confused why this theorycrafting is even going on. But okay, yea you can use templar to defend late game EVERYTHING, not just muta? Lategame as in the time that your main is mining out and you are taking a 4th. If the zerg has gone muta then he wont have broodlord infestor at this point. Stalkers work fine for defense as long as you are keeping them all at home and letting the zerg take the map. But that is fine as protoss never needs more than 3 operational bases. If you are saying that you cant let the zerg take the map because of broodlord/infestor then that is a different thing altogether, as this thread is about mutas.
Well the whole premise of blade5555's argument was that you mass mutas in the late game in GSL. I was just blown away at that statement.
I mean if you're going to already have templars on 3or3+ bases it's already late game right? So why is there even still pure making mass muta (in a GSL level game)? At this point (where a psi storm templar wielding protoss has 3 bases already), muta's aren't the threat for protoss so much that 900 dedicated gas (2 templar at each base or the equivalent of 18 potential blink stalkers) is needed to stay and defend all your base when that 900 gas can be in your main army.
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Zerg really only has the mutalisk as an effective harassment unit, although it is one of the best in the game at that task. Zerglings are also very good but are ultimately limited by the fact that they are melee units, and the opportunity cost of banelings makes them an uncertain investment. Meanwhile protoss have colossi, blink stalkers, dark templar, and the warp in mechanic; and terran has tanks, hellions, and vikings (reapers too, but they have all the combined drawbacks of zerglings and banelings combined without much of the benefits).
I just don't think zerg is well designed.
You might point out nydus canals which have so much design potential but are almost useless because the accompany an alert and are only useful when transporting large units (zergling/baneling transpot is just too slow for ambush techniques). Personally I think they should get rid of the alert and require you to build them on creep, then at least the overlord creep mechanic would have a direct application.
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Sorry my bad. I havent really seen anyone stay on mutas past the 20 minute mark.
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On January 23 2012 21:04 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2012 12:28 CeroFail wrote:
Mutas are not OP at all, in fact, they're probably one of the best units in terms of design as they take skill to use and aren't overpowered since there are so many units which can counter them in each MU. (Infestors, Templar, Thor, Marine, Stalker, Phoenix, Archon, stationary defense, Hydra) I think you're confusing "counters" with "able to do any kind of damage towards". Stalkers certainly doesn't counter mutalisks. Phoenixes have been mentioned before as not viable. Archons do work somewhat, but with enough numbers of mutalisks they can oneshot them, and at that point you can't spread them out to defend all your bases. Canons are properly useless as well when the ball gets bigger. Ironically the only unit that really works is one you didn't mention, the high templar. Think the biggest problem with mutalisks is that their damage increases dramatically the more you get of them, up to the point where they can oneshot an entire worker line.. And at that point, they're pretty much impossible to deal with.
I think it balances out once you consider the investment and the risk involved in mass muta play. It's all about reacting at the right time.
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We can always go back and compare to BW to find a suitable solution. In BW, you never (at least from what I've seen) use more than 11 mutas. This is because of the Shark micro where 11 mutas + 1 overlord makes 1 supermuta if you micro correctly. This means mutas are extremely strong and good, but you don't see a late game decided by them, they aren't even used. They are an insanely good midgame unit which harasses your opponent, scouts the map and holds your opponent back. They are a force you can't ignore, but what you can do is defend well and get to the endgame where the mutalisks become second rate citizens.
Maybe what they want is for something like this to come back. I think we can all agree that games, especially ZvP, which end with the zerg player having over 50 mutalisks and just flying around one-shotting everything with them is boring.
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On January 24 2012 19:11 Tobberoth wrote:
We can always go back and compare to BW to find a suitable solution. In BW, you never (at least from what I've seen) use more than 11 mutas. This is because of the Shark micro where 11 mutas + 1 overlord makes 1 supermuta if you micro correctly. This means mutas are extremely strong and good, but you don't see a late game decided by them, they aren't even used. They are an insanely good midgame unit which harasses your opponent, scouts the map and holds your opponent back. They are a force you can't ignore, but what you can do is defend well and get to the endgame where the mutalisks become second rate citizens.
Maybe what they want is for something like this to come back. I think we can all agree that games, especially ZvP, which end with the zerg player having over 50 mutalisks and just flying around one-shotting everything with them is boring.
Well, I think that it is equally boring to not see Protoss give up after they have been 2base vs 3base for 50% or longer of the game.
Or Terrans staying in the game after trading all their tanks and marines for zerglings and banelings at 10mins, but not shooting down a single one of the 7mutas.
Guess what... those are the two situations in which zergs go for mass mutas. Of course I wish I could just straight up win the game when I crush an army, but that's not how defensive play works.
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The worst cases with "mutas vs Protoss" are imo:
1) When they come before your third and you don't have enough anti-air at that point to take the third safely. They will just deny your third over and over and take the whole map while you die slowly, not having the resources to go templars AND stalkers.
2) The mass mutas "surprise" switch lategame when 20+ mutas pop up out of nowhere at one of your bases. It's not like you can scout it easily, Zerg will always have a spire for corruptors, so unless you see them pop at a hatchery, you're bound to defend that shit on the fly (no pun intended), and it's hard.
However if you didn't go for a build that dies instantly to the first 8-10 mutas (like zealots-sentries-immortals with warpprism drops), and the map allows it (yes I'm looking at you Crossfire!), you can take your third, turtle up and tech to templars and you should be fine.
It's not very fun from the Protoss side though, you're really forced to turtle on 3 bases for a while, with mass cannons and templars at each base and shit. You can maybe slip in a warpprism for chargelots or maybe some DTs but that's about it.
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What reallly happened on SC2 is that at mosts of ZvT and ZvP's The zerg player will go mutas, if they have any sort of success with the harass... (killing workers, denying expanding, sniping buildings,etc,) they will just continue adding more mutas.
So why is this different from what happened on BW? the fact that theres no unit selection cap really boosts the mutas from its harass only role, to be a real menace against a small army when mutas get to 15+.
Im not sure about the new toss capitol ship...i think that phoenix where a rather good counter to mutas, the only issue with them is that you needed to chase mutas to effectively counter them, and if you ever get fungaled... well thats almost free units for the Z.
The only real way to avoid mass muta strats would be to make mutas cost 3 supply.... but hey.. thats not gonna happen.
So for the time beign i like any kind of new unit that can help against mass muta while performing well on other roles.
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Oh the irony. Blizzard takes out the corsair for SC2 and bring it back because toss can't handle mutas. But before they bring them back they just make them huge, slow and strip em of all their micro abilities.
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On January 24 2012 19:11 Tobberoth wrote:
We can always go back and compare to BW to find a suitable solution. In BW, you never (at least from what I've seen) use more than 11 mutas. This is because of the Shark micro where 11 mutas + 1 overlord makes 1 supermuta if you micro correctly. This means mutas are extremely strong and good, but you don't see a late game decided by them, they aren't even used. They are an insanely good midgame unit which harasses your opponent, scouts the map and holds your opponent back. They are a force you can't ignore, but what you can do is defend well and get to the endgame where the mutalisks become second rate citizens.
Maybe what they want is for something like this to come back. I think we can all agree that games, especially ZvP, which end with the zerg player having over 50 mutalisks and just flying around one-shotting everything with them is boring.
Haha, so you're saying Zerg is boring for using mutas (a harassment unit, by the way) in ZvP but the fact that P tends to sit in their base and do not much before making one big push doesn't bother you? Maybe you just don't like micro, lol
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No, mutas are not overpowered at all. Terran has enough means of dealing with them, as does protoss.
Really though, the best way to deal with mutalisks is to pressure and not sit there and turtle. Protoss like to turtle as they work toward their max army and then complain when they get contained to 2 bases by mutas. Same thing with terran, the best way to reduce or delay the effectiveness of mutas is to force the zerg to spend gas on banelings and roaches.
At least blizzard is being consistent in their trend away from micro. I really believe they base their balance decisions more on what the average weak player wants and not what the top gamers want.
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On January 25 2012 00:20 Jayson X wrote:
Oh the irony. Blizzard takes out the corsair for SC2 and bring it back because toss can't handle mutas. But before they bring them back they just make them huge, slow and strip em of all their micro abilities.
lol... what microability would a Corsair in SC2 have? Without Scourge the Corsair is reduced to an 1a role, to counter mass stacked air. Possibly disrubtion web, but I guess that's not really the point you were trying to make with "micro".
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EPT
