EPT[D]Are mutalisks overpowered in WOL?? - Page 97
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anApple
Singapore275 Posts
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Excludos
Norway8260 Posts
On January 23 2012 12:28 CeroFail wrote: Mutas are not OP at all, in fact, they're probably one of the best units in terms of design as they take skill to use and aren't overpowered since there are so many units which can counter them in each MU. (Infestors, Templar, Thor, Marine, Stalker, Phoenix, Archon, stationary defense, Hydra) I think you're confusing "counters" with "able to do any kind of damage towards". Stalkers certainly doesn't counter mutalisks. Phoenixes have been mentioned before as not viable. Archons do work somewhat, but with enough numbers of mutalisks they can oneshot them, and at that point you can't spread them out to defend all your bases. Canons are properly useless as well when the ball gets bigger. Ironically the only unit that really works is one you didn't mention, the high templar. Think the biggest problem with mutalisks is that their damage increases dramatically the more you get of them, up to the point where they can oneshot an entire worker line.. And at that point, they're pretty much impossible to deal with. | ||
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Tailss
Sweden233 Posts
On January 23 2012 21:04 Excludos wrote: I think you're confusing "counters" with "able to do any kind of damage towards". Stalkers certainly doesn't counter mutalisks. Phoenixes have been mentioned before as not viable. Archons do work somewhat, but with enough numbers of mutalisks they can oneshot them, and at that point you can't spread them out to defend all your bases. Canons are properly useless as well when the ball gets bigger. Ironically the only unit that really works is one you didn't mention, the high templar. Think the biggest problem with mutalisks is that their damage increases dramatically the more you get of them, up to the point where they can oneshot an entire worker line.. And at that point, they're pretty much impossible to deal with. Word! | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On January 23 2012 12:28 CeroFail wrote: Mutas are not OP at all, in fact, they're probably one of the best units in terms of design as they take skill to use and aren't overpowered since there are so many units which can counter them in each MU. (Infestors, Templar, Thor, Marine, Stalker, Phoenix, Archon, stationary defense, Hydra) Ignoring the counter bit, muta play had been largely developed over the course of starcraft/BW and their role largely remains the same in SC2. It's taken more than a year to understand the potential of units with similar roles which now defines the meta game. Hellions in TvT/TvZ, Blink stalkers/phoenixes in PvP, etc. Mutas may eventually become more standard than roaches in ZvP as players learn to abuse their mobility and reap appropriate advantages. tl;dr even accepting the ridiculous notion that they're somehow OP/UP, chances are they're going to slowly get better at a faster rate compared to other non-mobile units as the player skill/meta game understanding develops. | ||
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Eiaco
170 Posts
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
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usethis2
2164 Posts
On January 23 2012 12:28 CeroFail wrote: Mutas are not OP at all, in fact, they're probably one of the best units in terms of design as they take skill to use and aren't overpowered since there are so many units which can counter them in each MU. (Infestors, Templar, Thor, Marine, Stalker, Phoenix, Archon, stationary defense, Hydra) I agree. They are probably ONE unit that Blizzard succeessfully designed for Zerg in WoL. They cost just right and it is exciting to watch them in pro games. I think stalkers are also a very well designed unit. They are not overpowered, but very fun to use and can win the game if used right. As for Terran, I can't think of a unit that is well designed. (i.e. not overpowered or underpowered, but just right and exciting to play/watch) Terran units are all too specialized (exception: rines) and most of them are overpowered (read: rines) at the pro-level but underpowered for casuals. | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
Just make penix fire right, like a marine, and air gets exciting. | ||
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klaxen
United States361 Posts
On January 24 2012 16:16 tdt wrote: Not OP but I question blizz'z Protoss new counter to them. Assuming Tempest follows same timeline as carriers, read fleetbeacon, how will they be out in time when muta's arrive at 9-12 min? Maybe it's for broods and they just slipped up calling it a muta counter but I fail to see need for this unit whatsoever. People question the replicator or oracle but I think the tempest is the most ridculous add on to hots. Just make penix fire right, like a marine, and air gets exciting. I also question the design philosophy with toss where you have to reach the highest tech to deal with other races "weaker" units. | ||
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EleanorRIgby
Canada3923 Posts
On January 24 2012 02:20 Tyrant0 wrote: Ignoring the counter bit, muta play had been largely developed over the course of starcraft/BW and their role largely remains the same in SC2. It's taken more than a year to understand the potential of units with similar roles which now defines the meta game. Hellions in TvT/TvZ, Blink stalkers/phoenixes in PvP, etc. Mutas may eventually become more standard than roaches in ZvP as players learn to abuse their mobility and reap appropriate advantages. tl;dr even accepting the ridiculous notion that they're somehow OP/UP, chances are they're going to slowly get better at a faster rate compared to other non-mobile units as the player skill/meta game understanding develops. they don't fill the same roll, mutas are only really good in mid game because once late game comes out irradiate completely shuts them down and corsairs/acrhons do the same, you rarely make more then 11 unless your doing some weird muta all in. You cannot mass mutas like the way you do in sc2 | ||
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On January 23 2012 12:28 CeroFail wrote: Mutas are not OP at all, in fact, they're probably one of the best units in terms of design as they take skill to use and aren't overpowered since there are so many units which can counter them in each MU. (Infestors, Templar, Thor, Marine, Stalker, Phoenix, Archon, stationary defense, Hydra) Stalkers don't counter Mutas at all. They don't trade as one sided as people make it seem. Phoenixes should counter Mutas on paper but Zergs switch to Corrupters or just make Infestors and the fleet is dead. Hydras are a terrible counter to Mutas also. Mutas are fine design wise up until past like 15-20 mutas. Then they just snowball out of control by one shotting every building. With the mobility it has.. it's really hard for anyone to defend all their bases. | ||
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LuckoftheIrish
United States4791 Posts
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EleanorRIgby
Canada3923 Posts
On January 24 2012 16:34 LuckoftheIrish wrote: Well, part of the reason you can't mass them is because there's only 12 units in a single control group. I'm sure BW players would get more if you could control more at once. lol thats not the reason at all, because they wont be able to control them? Come on | ||
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TheAntZ
Israel6248 Posts
despite what everyone thinks I think Protoss is actually a little favored vs Zerg at the moment in the late game ( 200 vs 200 attack ) What? I wont argue that getting to the 200/200of zerg with the proper mix of units is MUCH harder than doing so with protoss, but the sunken/brood/infestor maxed army is superior to a maxed out protoss army, unless you leave your broods clumped for a vortex | ||
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LuckoftheIrish
United States4791 Posts
On January 24 2012 17:24 EleanorRIgby wrote: lol thats not the reason at all, because they wont be able to control them? Come on Stacking mutas in BW is pretty damn challenging when you have multiple control groups. There's a reason the standard cutoff is less than one control group. The essential micro is too intensive to be efficient if you're using 20-24 mutas to do the standard harass tasks that BW pros use 11 for. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 24 2012 17:30 TheAntZ wrote: What? I wont argue that getting to the 200/200of zerg with the proper mix of units is MUCH harder than doing so with protoss, but the sunken/brood/infestor maxed army is superior to a maxed out protoss army, unless you leave your broods clumped for a vortex depends on your maxed Protoss army... And spread out Broodlords are fine and everything, but they can be picked off easily by nonvortex stuff as well with blink stalkers or voids or phoenix or carrier. It's a question of control, not a question a a-click in an even endgame scenario. But if your even endgame is 80% gateway + 3colossus+1mothership+1archon+1templar, than you simply don't have the best maxed army you could have. | ||
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anApple
Singapore275 Posts
On January 23 2012 21:04 Excludos wrote: I think you're confusing "counters" with "able to do any kind of damage towards". Stalkers certainly doesn't counter mutalisks. Phoenixes have been mentioned before as not viable. Archons do work somewhat, but with enough numbers of mutalisks they can oneshot them, and at that point you can't spread them out to defend all your bases. Canons are properly useless as well when the ball gets bigger. Ironically the only unit that really works is one you didn't mention, the high templar. Think the biggest problem with mutalisks is that their damage increases dramatically the more you get of them, up to the point where they can oneshot an entire worker line.. And at that point, they're pretty much impossible to deal with. I did mention Templar. But anyways, the thing is, depending on how Protoss plays, you'll be able to deny them from getting such a large muta flock and even if they do, correct me if I'm wrong, your deathball which would have probably been modified to include units such as templar, mothership and etc would be able to kill them in a straight up fight. Of course, if a base trade scenario occurs, then it's debatable who would win. Of course, I guess that if they catch you off guard without the correct tech with mass mutas, it would be pretty OP since it'd take too much time to get an appropriate response. Also, I don't have much experience with playing long macro PvZ's against mass muta but couldn't you just leave a few high templar at each base or open stargate? | ||
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Zairair
87 Posts
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
On January 24 2012 17:32 LuckoftheIrish wrote: Stacking mutas in BW is pretty damn challenging when you have multiple control groups. There's a reason the standard cutoff is less than one control group. The essential micro is too intensive to be efficient if you're using 20-24 mutas to do the standard harass tasks that BW pros use 11 for. Irradiate, Goliaths, archons, corsairs and 112 damage psi storm and maelstrom is why people dont make 20-24 mutas in BW except in ZvZ(if it gets to that point) Ow, and marines. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On January 24 2012 17:55 Zairair wrote: Leaving "a few" high templar at each base is leaving 150 gas per out of your main army making it harder push out to obtain map control because it takes gas to counter mutas. That's definitely not the best way to counter mass muta. It actually is the best way and is just fine for you to do. Its the most effective I have faced and seen in GSL when a zerg goes muta. I am glad most tosses don't do this though  | ||
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