EPT[D]Are mutalisks overpowered in WOL?? - Page 99
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aintz
Canada5624 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 25 2012 01:01 aintz wrote: man this thread is still being bumped? mutas arent op. and no i dont play zerg. guess what would happen if someone made a threat about marines and it would be allowed to live  | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
On January 24 2012 18:24 Hypatio wrote: Zerg really only has the mutalisk as an effective harassment unit, although it is one of the best in the game at that task. Zerglings are also very good but are ultimately limited by the fact that they are melee units, and the opportunity cost of banelings makes them an uncertain investment. Meanwhile protoss have colossi, blink stalkers, dark templar, and the warp in mechanic; and terran has tanks, hellions, and vikings (reapers too, but they have all the combined drawbacks of zerglings and banelings combined without much of the benefits). I just don't think zerg is well designed. You might point out nydus canals which have so much design potential but are almost useless because the accompany an alert and are only useful when transporting large units (zergling/baneling transpot is just too slow for ambush techniques). Personally I think they should get rid of the alert and require you to build them on creep, then at least the overlord creep mechanic would have a direct application. well networks are connected as well, you can already build a nydus without the sound you just need a drone and creep. That being said, i think they could give the network a faster unload time for hots, that way the nydus would transfer more units but only when u use the expensive version, which you can basically only get up defensively. =( can't find the replay anymore damn, well its not really practical to sneak in a drone via drop and build a network in the opponents base, but its damn funny. But i basically use 2 networks to connect my bases once i start to gather overmins for defense, well they also provide an threat to the opponent. But they always pay for themself in the lategame, especially against prism play or terran bio. (and the 850 hp aren't easy to snipe for a small drop, especially if banes or ultras leave first). Anyway sorry for the OT, had this on my mind since the last nydus thread talking about nydus is only good for cheese :x About the corsair, magic box would make it almost useless and it would basically be just a disruption web casting air unit. (which the viper will be). And seeing the pure damage of the thors air attack i guess they knew about mutas and magic box before releasing the game. So the phoenix is a nice evolution of the corsair imo. | ||
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Neurosis
United States893 Posts
On January 24 2012 18:24 Hypatio wrote: Zerg really only has the mutalisk as an effective harassment unit, although it is one of the best in the game at that task. Zerglings are also very good but are ultimately limited by the fact that they are melee units, and the opportunity cost of banelings makes them an uncertain investment. Meanwhile protoss have colossi, blink stalkers, dark templar, and the warp in mechanic; and terran has tanks, hellions, and vikings (reapers too, but they have all the combined drawbacks of zerglings and banelings combined without much of the benefits). I just don't think zerg is well designed. You might point out nydus canals which have so much design potential but are almost useless because the accompany an alert and are only useful when transporting large units (zergling/baneling transpot is just too slow for ambush techniques). Personally I think they should get rid of the alert and require you to build them on creep, then at least the overlord creep mechanic would have a direct application. I think nydus is the most underrated structure (unit?) in the entire game, at least now that protoss players have started using warp prisms. Honestly I think nydus worms will eventually become standard play down the road for sure in z v t and probably also in z v p. You can make it solid play imo and its barely an investment at all. I'm picturing DRG's heavy multipronged speedling/muta harass style in z v t and just how powerful it would be if he started incorporating some nydus worms. At the same time it also opens up defensive options as well so I mean even if your opponent can keep up with your multi tasking and blocks all your attacks it's still not a total waste of money. | ||
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-y0shi-
Germany994 Posts
On January 25 2012 00:46 liberal wrote: No, mutas are not overpowered at all. Terran has enough means of dealing with them, as does protoss. Really though, the best way to deal with mutalisks is to pressure and not sit there and turtle. Protoss like to turtle as they work toward their max army and then complain when they get contained to 2 bases by mutas. Same thing with terran, the best way to reduce or delay the effectiveness of mutas is to force the zerg to spend gas on banelings and roaches. At least blizzard is being consistent in their trend away from micro. I really believe they base their balance decisions more on what the average weak player wants and not what the top gamers want. So the moment you see mutas you start pressure and ... basetrade, great. Thats whats already happening, toss start to turtle because you never want to basetrade a zerg.. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On January 25 2012 00:33 Vul wrote: Haha, so you're saying Zerg is boring for using mutas (a harassment unit, by the way) in ZvP but the fact that P tends to sit in their base and do not much before making one big push doesn't bother you? Maybe you just don't like micro, lol Protoss wouldn't sit in their base if they weren't forced to keep their whole army as a mutalisk defence force. The fact that we have a "harassment unit" as you like to call it, which forces an army into complete passivity is exactly the problem, especially since this "harassment unit" is actually viable massed in the end-game. I also like how you conjecture that I don't like micro when I said mutalisks in SC2 might benefit from being more like in BW... maybe you've never seen mutas used in BW, but let me tell you, it's ALL about micro. | ||
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Veritas.13
United States48 Posts
Players need to learn new ways to get good at sc instead of blizzard putting in massive patches or hew units | ||
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Veritas.13
United States48 Posts
On January 25 2012 01:23 Neurosis wrote: I think nydus is the most underrated structure (unit?) in the entire game, at least now that protoss players have started using warp prisms. Honestly I think nydus worms will eventually become standard play down the road for sure in z v t and probably also in z v p. You can make it solid play imo and its barely an investment at all. I'm picturing DRG's heavy multipronged speedling/muta harass style in z v t and just how powerful it would be if he started incorporating some nydus worms. At the same time it also opens up defensive options as well so I mean even if your opponent can keep up with your multi tasking and blocks all your attacks it's still not a total waste of money. Finally someone mentions the great Nydia worm, I think it is better than the prism combined with drop play, hey ail b standard in the end. I hope | ||
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Tula
Austria1544 Posts
Nydus worms die far too easily. Frankly i wonder how long it will take before Zergs start dropping properly, but Nydus isn't the answer to harass, it's simply too expensive and dies too fast to be an effective harass tool. | ||
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Bergys
Sweden337 Posts
The other scenario is where mutas gets out and toss is forced to defend for eternity. Basetrading is useless since it doesn't work against a good zerg (Atleast if you're on equal footing). The zerg keeps picking away at the protoss until he has his maxed army of doom aka broodlord infestors spine crawler which you can't beat cost-effectively. Well, to be fair you can beat it if the zerg decides to stack up all his broodlords in one spot and get archon-toileted (?) but this is just a huge mistake on the zergs part. The way I see it either brood lord infestor combinations needs to get nerfed. F.ex. a brood lord costs 300 minerals, 250 gas and 4 supply total which makes it the most expensive cost/supply unit (I think?). This coupled with infestors who can keep anything away from them makes it such a strong combination. My suggestion would be either to increase the brood lord morph cost to 4 supply, making the total supply cost 6 which is on par with other units late-game units, nerf fungal growth to prevent blink and slow 50% or something like that. In ZvT I think they're fine. Marines handle mutas extremely well and ghosts are incredible against brood lords. So essentially I think mutas are very good against protoss, but it would not be much of a problem if protoss late-game army didn't leave so much to desire. | ||
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willoc
Canada1530 Posts
On January 25 2012 02:26 Bergys wrote: In ZvT I think they're fine. Marines handle mutas extremely well and ghosts are incredible against brood lords. It's not because of marines... It's because of thors. If you do a head-on engagement with marines vs. mutas then the marines will obviously win but that should never happen. Mutas will keep dancing around marines forcing them to stim and walk around long ledges as they harass and constantly pick off marine stragglers. It's only when a Thor pops out that the muta-harass effectively stops (think Science Vessel in SC:BW). | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On January 25 2012 02:54 willoc wrote: It's not because of marines... It's because of thors. If you do a head-on engagement with marines vs. mutas then the marines will obviously win but that should never happen. Mutas will keep dancing around marines forcing them to stim and walk around long ledges as they harass and constantly pick off marine stragglers. It's only when a Thor pops out that the muta-harass effectively stops (think Science Vessel in SC:BW). Mutas are difficult to deal with in ZvT, but they're not too bad. They're really absurdly annoying in ZvP though, as the protoss doesn't have a cheap, high dps ground unit that straight up slaughters mutalisk balls that also happens to be effective against every other unit zerg makes like the marine. | ||
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synkronized
United States125 Posts
On January 25 2012 02:26 Bergys wrote: I don't think mutas are necessarily too strong in ZvP, but the kind of turtling they force with the current end-game makes them atleast a part of why I think zerg is too strong against protoss. They force pretty much every ZvP into 2 super-boring scenarios. Either the toss chooses to 2-base all in naniwa style to just outright kill a mutalisk build and circumvent them altogether. The other scenario is where mutas gets out and toss is forced to defend for eternity. Basetrading is useless since it doesn't work against a good zerg (Atleast if you're on equal footing). The zerg keeps picking away at the protoss until he has his maxed army of doom aka broodlord infestors spine crawler which you can't beat cost-effectively. Well, to be fair you can beat it if the zerg decides to stack up all his broodlords in one spot and get archon-toileted (?) but this is just a huge mistake on the zergs part. The ZvP you described is pretty true. Mutas aren't OP, but considering the rabid bitching by Zergs about turtling Toss and Terran they overlook the fact that Muta/Ling pretty much forces that scenario. Why? Because moving out means risking your entire force getting caught by a extremely mobile one. That or the Muta/ Ling runby ravages your base to the point of forcing an all in. I'm not saying Toss counter aggression's impossible but Muta/Ling definitely forces a very turtlish style of play and Zerg players shouldn't whine when they themselves force opponents to play that hand. | ||
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Sabu113
United States11035 Posts
On January 25 2012 01:04 Big J wrote: guess what would happen if someone made a threat about marines and it would be allowed to live This thread is actually pretty useful. Quite a few here simply have the wrong opinion. Or have listed new viable ways to deal with muta balls  | ||
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Rassy
Netherlands2308 Posts
This results in free and automatic focus fire for the zerg, shooting with all his mutas at the closest stalker, While the toss can only fire with like half the stalkers and their fire is random as the mutas are all at the same spot/distance. When mutas reach a certain mass they become near unstopable due to this Area of effect will stop this stacking wich is the biggest advantage for air units over ground units. Archon is good, one archon shot does same damage and slightly bigger splash to bio then a sieged tank shot does to light units! Muta is not op i think though they are incredibly annoying to deal with.. | ||
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OtoshimonoU
United States509 Posts
On January 25 2012 02:54 willoc wrote: It's not because of marines... It's because of thors. If you do a head-on engagement with marines vs. mutas then the marines will obviously win but that should never happen. Mutas will keep dancing around marines forcing them to stim and walk around long ledges as they harass and constantly pick off marine stragglers. It's only when a Thor pops out that the muta-harass effectively stops (think Science Vessel in SC:BW). Magic Box. | ||
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
On January 25 2012 02:54 willoc wrote: It's not because of marines... It's because of thors. If you do a head-on engagement with marines vs. mutas then the marines will obviously win but that should never happen. Mutas will keep dancing around marines forcing them to stim and walk around long ledges as they harass and constantly pick off marine stragglers. It's only when a Thor pops out that the muta-harass effectively stops (think Science Vessel in SC:BW). Thors are great deterrents but absolutely horrendous in a head on fight with mutas. For that you need marines. Just give me an option to mount Valkyrie missile pods into my vikings. Then life would be so much easier. But that's not how it works. =/ One thing annoying about TvZ is that you can't really contest for Air dominance. but it's not like you really had to anyways in the history of TvZ from BW till now. but still nice to have the option. Terran always tried to win the battle from the ground. | ||
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Bergys
Sweden337 Posts
On January 25 2012 02:54 willoc wrote: It's not because of marines... It's because of thors. If you do a head-on engagement with marines vs. mutas then the marines will obviously win but that should never happen. Mutas will keep dancing around marines forcing them to stim and walk around long ledges as they harass and constantly pick off marine stragglers. It's only when a Thor pops out that the muta-harass effectively stops (think Science Vessel in SC:BW). I don't agree with this at all. Thors don't do much versus mutas unless they have marine support. They're very good for defending against mutas sniping tanks and catching them off-guard with stacked mutas but you can't leave a thor in your base and expect to be safe against a muta pack. Of course you can leave a thor with marine support but I'd argue you'd be better off with pure marine/medivac. The thing is as a terran a zerg nearly never right-clicks and kills your marines unless your at a massive disadvantage, and when they do you only lost a few marines which are easily replacable. As protoss if you leave 15 stalkers to fight and 30 mutas come flying by they just die. Considering 15 stalkers are worth 1875/750 that's quite a massive hit. If you leave 20 marines and a few medivacs and focus fire you will always be cost-effective vs 30 mutas and you gain time to send reinforcements. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 25 2012 03:37 Blasterion wrote: Thors are great deterrents but absolutely horrendous in a head on fight with mutas. For that you need marines. Just give me an option to mount Valkyrie missile pods into my vikings. Then life would be so much easier. But that's not how it works. =/ One thing annoying about TvZ is that you can't really contest for Air dominance. but it's not like you really had to anyways in the history of TvZ from BW till now. but still nice to have the option. Terran always tried to win the battle from the ground. they beat them extremly costefficiently in even supply battles. guess why noone goes mass muta against thormech (=thor as only antiair). i dont get whats so horrendous about that in battles. | ||
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Bergys
Sweden337 Posts
On January 25 2012 03:50 Big J wrote: they beat them extremly costefficiently in even supply battles. guess why noone goes mass muta against thormech (=thor as only antiair). i dont get whats so horrendous about that in battles. Noone goes "thormech". This is why: Granted that there are 24 mutas vs just 5 thors who are positioned pretty badly you can still see that it's nowhere near extremely cost-efficient. You will also never have as much supply in thors as your opponent will have in mutas. | ||
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