|
Lol, I give up. I am wasting my braincells on you all. You just stay in your little muta OP world and never progress as players. Have fun.
|
On November 11 2011 03:44 Roxy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 03:36 Ace.Xile wrote:On November 11 2011 03:27 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 03:21 Ace.Xile wrote:On November 11 2011 02:13 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 02:08 Mjolnir wrote:On November 11 2011 00:49 EmilA wrote:On November 10 2011 14:31 Mjolnir wrote:On November 10 2011 14:13 ZorBa.G wrote:
Why not just do something with the stalker? Give it some kind of extra attack for air only.
As a Terran, there is nothing more annoying then well controlled mutas, they just circle your base all day whilst the zerg expos and drones up like a mad man!
Everyone complains about hellions before the patch, mutas are no freaking different IMO... It's practically a flying fkn Hellion! Not only can it shoot ground, but air also!
If Blizzard thinks Mutas are OP, I 100% agree!
Playing as Terran, I am continously trying to defend my base and get my 3rd up. Whenever I try to leave my base... I can't because I either end up as me losing or it's a base trade at best. Then, once you do actually get to leave your base, your next worry is banelings! So you spend all this work to actually get the point where you can somewhat safely leave your base and then you need to worry about freaking banes!
Either nerf the muta, or give us other race a better unit to counter it. I think Blizzard giving us Terrans the battlehellion and Warhound is awesome and I cannot wait to start making butter out of the zerg race! Terran has the easiest time dealing with mutas. Marines destroy them. Turrets are decent early, especially for taking your third before mutas are in large numbers. Adding a Thor in your main or expo is an incredible deterrent. Marines, however, are your bread and butter, and 6 marines hanging out in a base with a few turrets will shut down muta harass pretty well. Mutas are not OP. There's too much knee-jerking going on with Blizzard and it has led to a number of nerfs that in retrospect were probably unwarranted. No, six marines and a turret will not shut down anything. It's more like 30 marines stimming around, helplessly chasing a muta blob which in turn denies terran his needed aggression to stop the snowballing zerg. It's extremely uncommon to see a zerg who reaches 24+ mutas lose to a terran, unless he somehow flies his muta blob over the main army by mistake. It does look like Blizzard goes BW style and adds muta-counters to every race, which is a pretty damn good idea. I wrote 6 marines + turrets for dealing with the early muta harass. That is plenty. What the fuck is all this talk about people saying 24 to 30 mutas (or more!) being OP? If I dumped 3k min and 3k gas into just about any unit it'd be strong. Jesus - if you pressure the zerg and trade, it's really fucking hard for a zerg to mass up those mutas. You all make it sound like we drop a spire and go, "OK, time to make 30 mutas. Wheeeee!" The popular 3 base muta tech switch does get out nearly 20 in the first round... It balloons to thirty pretty fast off 6 gas, and spines are what prevents the pressure from succeeding as much as it should. Its more of a map control issue, its very difficult for protoss to scout out zerg Hatchery locations and engage them without that expeditionary force being intercepted by the entire flock. 3 Base with mutas with 20 on the first round. You can destroy them way before then, and no i'm not saying HEY you should just kill them if they're going mutas, i'm saying, Hey they sure as hell are being greedy stacking 2k/2K + minerals and expanding to 3 bases all while taking 6 gases, and you somehow can't push out and do damage to them? Usually the scenario is that toss goes FFE and zerg grabs a fast third. Zerg at this point will use roaches to try and hold a 2 base protoss timing such as 7 gate/6gate blink +2/etc, if they hold they are usually ahead, and the switch to mutas seals the deal. Alternatively, if protoss does not commit to heavy pressure and goes for a faster third, the Zerg will go ahead and grab mutas. Even if Zerg does not plan to go muta, they will need the spire for corruptors laters anyway, and the lair is standard after 3 base for roach speed/infestor, etc. its just extremely hard for toss to see this switch coming, I agree that if toss knew what was going on they would have a timing window to kill Zerg before the mutas pop but there simply are no clear signs. i think this is one of the main reasons that the oracle is getting the sneak peak ability or whatever it is. They can check if mutas are producing and then phase out the spire, lol. I find it hard to believe the excuse is, well protoss doesn't know what's going on, assuming they aren't going for some sort of heavy pressure build they should usually get a robo up pretty quickly by my understanding, and observers are pretty good at looking around. And you even admitted it yourself, if the protoss isn't going to go for a 2 base timing he's going to try and expand, and the logical choice would be to realize that either the zerg is going to go for some mutas or some huge push as you're expanding, either way all of this can be dealt with with proper scouting. The problem is timings. If you opened robo and you scout that they are going for mtuas, you just spent 375/175 on an observer and now have to transition into blink stalkers (which wont be blinkable for something like 100 seconds for twilight and another 140 for blink?) in that amount of time, mutas could get in there and do a lot of damage. not to mention you cant put any pressure while you are tech switching and they are free to saturate their third and push you with 60 drones worth of saturation
watch WhiteRa vs Idra from the Asus Invitational this week. WhiteRa scouts the hatching mutalisks while he goes double robo and researches charge, and easily able to transition into blink and archons and straight up crush idra's spinecrawler wall, all because he took an 8min third.
The problem is not the mutalisk. The problem is that protoss are usually far behind economically when mutalisks occur, because the current metagame lets protoss play 2base vs 3base with 10-20 less workers (you want more workers when you have less bases) for over 5mins.
Ground is just barely dealable by blindly teching colossi, air play is barely dealable by blindly teching 2port phoenix. The problem is that both of those openings are completly unforgiving. If the metagame was protoss going phoenix and zerg going mutalisks, and zergs would rediscover groundplay right now, it would be the exact same problem:
Protoss needs to be able to take faster bases, either by developing a new build, or by buffing expansion builds. Else they won't have enough units in their universal, low tech play. (or find a useful way to deny 3hatch openings)
|
As people have already stated, i dont think its a problem within the unit, but more of a map problem, theres soo much dead space on maps allowing mutas to jump from main to main or over terrain that else would have taken 100x longer to walk too. I didnt play that much broodwar, but correct me if im wrong, the maps back then didnt have as much "dead space" as they do now?
|
On November 11 2011 04:43 Ceyox wrote:
As people have already stated, i dont think its a problem within the unit, but more of a map problem, theres soo much dead space on maps allowing mutas to jump from main to main or over terrain that else would have taken 100x longer to walk too. I didnt play that much broodwar, but correct me if im wrong, the maps back then didnt have as much "dead space" as they do now?
No they didn't.
The bases were at the corner of the Map. You didn't have free space behind your Base.
(I can't remember all Maps on top of my head, maybe there were exceptions, but generally there wasn't space behind / around the immediate base, just around the edges)
|
On November 11 2011 04:50 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 04:43 Ceyox wrote:
As people have already stated, i dont think its a problem within the unit, but more of a map problem, theres soo much dead space on maps allowing mutas to jump from main to main or over terrain that else would have taken 100x longer to walk too. I didnt play that much broodwar, but correct me if im wrong, the maps back then didnt have as much "dead space" as they do now? No they didn't. The bases were at the corner of the Map. You didn't have free space behind your Base. (I can't remember all Maps on top of my head, maybe there were exceptions, but generally there wasn't space behind / around the immediate base, just around the edges)
I think that is one of the WoL Mutas strength, that they have so many ways of escaping where your opponent cant be and since protoss lack the competitive mobility/maelstrom mutas will be really hard to deal with untill (maybe) Hots.
(Mutas in "dead space" (between bases on shattered temple for example) is unkillable, they literally cant die)
Something in the style of a Corsair would be nice to have, not a crappy thor version 2.0 with increased cost and slow mobility where you just get magicboxed and literally raped (Tempest).
|
On November 11 2011 03:27 willyallthewei wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 03:21 Ace.Xile wrote:On November 11 2011 02:13 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 02:08 Mjolnir wrote:On November 11 2011 00:49 EmilA wrote:On November 10 2011 14:31 Mjolnir wrote:On November 10 2011 14:13 ZorBa.G wrote:
Why not just do something with the stalker? Give it some kind of extra attack for air only.
As a Terran, there is nothing more annoying then well controlled mutas, they just circle your base all day whilst the zerg expos and drones up like a mad man!
Everyone complains about hellions before the patch, mutas are no freaking different IMO... It's practically a flying fkn Hellion! Not only can it shoot ground, but air also!
If Blizzard thinks Mutas are OP, I 100% agree!
Playing as Terran, I am continously trying to defend my base and get my 3rd up. Whenever I try to leave my base... I can't because I either end up as me losing or it's a base trade at best. Then, once you do actually get to leave your base, your next worry is banelings! So you spend all this work to actually get the point where you can somewhat safely leave your base and then you need to worry about freaking banes!
Either nerf the muta, or give us other race a better unit to counter it. I think Blizzard giving us Terrans the battlehellion and Warhound is awesome and I cannot wait to start making butter out of the zerg race! Terran has the easiest time dealing with mutas. Marines destroy them. Turrets are decent early, especially for taking your third before mutas are in large numbers. Adding a Thor in your main or expo is an incredible deterrent. Marines, however, are your bread and butter, and 6 marines hanging out in a base with a few turrets will shut down muta harass pretty well. Mutas are not OP. There's too much knee-jerking going on with Blizzard and it has led to a number of nerfs that in retrospect were probably unwarranted. No, six marines and a turret will not shut down anything. It's more like 30 marines stimming around, helplessly chasing a muta blob which in turn denies terran his needed aggression to stop the snowballing zerg. It's extremely uncommon to see a zerg who reaches 24+ mutas lose to a terran, unless he somehow flies his muta blob over the main army by mistake. It does look like Blizzard goes BW style and adds muta-counters to every race, which is a pretty damn good idea. I wrote 6 marines + turrets for dealing with the early muta harass. That is plenty. What the fuck is all this talk about people saying 24 to 30 mutas (or more!) being OP? If I dumped 3k min and 3k gas into just about any unit it'd be strong. Jesus - if you pressure the zerg and trade, it's really fucking hard for a zerg to mass up those mutas. You all make it sound like we drop a spire and go, "OK, time to make 30 mutas. Wheeeee!" The popular 3 base muta tech switch does get out nearly 20 in the first round... It balloons to thirty pretty fast off 6 gas, and spines are what prevents the pressure from succeeding as much as it should. Its more of a map control issue, its very difficult for protoss to scout out zerg Hatchery locations and engage them without that expeditionary force being intercepted by the entire flock. 3 Base with mutas with 20 on the first round. You can destroy them way before then, and no i'm not saying HEY you should just kill them if they're going mutas, i'm saying, Hey they sure as hell are being greedy stacking 2k/2K + minerals and expanding to 3 bases all while taking 6 gases, and you somehow can't push out and do damage to them? Usually the scenario is that toss goes FFE and zerg grabs a fast third. Zerg at this point will use roaches to try and hold a 2 base protoss timing such as 7 gate/6gate blink +2/etc, if they hold they are usually ahead, and the switch to mutas seals the deal. Alternatively, if protoss does not commit to heavy pressure and goes for a faster third, the Zerg will go ahead and grab mutas. Even if Zerg does not plan to go muta, they will need the spire for corruptors laters anyway, and the lair is standard after 3 base for roach speed/infestor, etc. its just extremely hard for toss to see this switch coming, I agree that if toss knew what was going on they would have a timing window to kill Zerg before the mutas pop but there simply are no clear signs. i think this is one of the main reasons that the oracle is getting the sneak peak ability or whatever it is. They can check if mutas are producing and then phase out the spire, lol.
Z could win with anything after holding a 6gate while on 3 bases though.
|
They already said they planned on Nerfing the Tempest, at least from the test videos that they released.
And the Warhound just looks ridiculous, and I can't stand it. It won't really counter mutas though because of how ridiculously slow they are.
|
On November 11 2011 02:44 Celebreth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 02:32 WhiteDog wrote:On November 11 2011 01:56 Celebreth wrote:On November 11 2011 01:43 foxmeep wrote:
The only people consistently losing to mutas are ones that don't know how to pressure efficiently. Of course you are going to lose if you sit in your base and try to defend mutas for 15 mins. Move out before their spire is up, you force Zerg to build units or die. You don't even have to kill much, or even anything at all, then retreat.
If Zerg commits to mass mutas, move out again, you can easily leave enough units in your base to not take huge amounts of damage. The way to beat mutas is to utilise the fact that they are almost useless in combat (for their cost).
Anti-Muta 101 - what do mutas cost a lot of? Gas. What else can Zerg build? Lings. What uses 0 gas and rapes lings. Zealots and marines. If Zerg doesn't commit his gas to anything apart from mutas, then neither do you towards muta counters, in which case your army is always going to win in a straight up battle. Force Zerg to spend his gas elsewhere or die.
The mass muta situation is exactly the same as the Protoss deathball situation was. Zerg cried that it was impossible to beat, and in part it still is. But then Zerg found ways to deal with Protoss before they ever accumulated the deathball.
So in other words you're saying kill a zerg within ten minutes or you lose the game due to them getting one unit that's just TOO good at harass. I've played games where I have constant pressure on zerg, they turtle it and get their mutas, force me to turtle due to harass and just go mass infestor/broodlord. When I get the vikings to hold off the broodlords, fifteen ultras come stomping in. The issue is that there is no real counter to the muta HARASS. Counters to mutalisks themselves? Yes. But they're also SO fast it's extraordinarily difficult to do any damage to a skilled player's mutalisks, and all the while that muta deathball is growing. For terran players - it's EXTREMELY difficult to drop when you're being harassed by mutas (You're sacrificing your anti-muta harass unit and there's a good chance they'll spot and intercept the drop with the muta deathblob). This leads to a lack of ability to do anything but turtle until you die. For protoss - if you move out with your army to do...well anything, really, it's a base-trade scenario that the zerg generally will win 'cause they're outside your base when you DO move out, and they have a buncha spines/infestors to slow you down. Either way, the mutalisk as a singular unit isn't quite overpowered, but their harassment potential certainly is - and when they get up to deathball size, they're damn impossible to fight  (I approve of the new HOTS units, in case you were wondering  Does the shredder work against air too? ) Marine just crush mutas, thors are good too, turrets too. All those are efficient, the only advantage muta has is their mobility. Also, I find your comment funny considering the fact that zerg just could not do anything against protoss deathball for a long long time, and nobody thought it was not balanced. You don't specially need to harass to gain against muta, but a timing attack works wonder, and you also can maccro up. Don't tell me terran can"t do shit against muta because that's ridiculous. Not saying they can't do anything - just that it takes WAY more skill and micro/macro capabilities to chase them off (not even talking about killing) than it does to muta harass while the zerg is macroing + expanding. Also, thors die SO hard to a medium sized muta swarm. All you have to do is not bunch up - not hard considering how small the thor's air splash is. 4 mutas can take out a thor very easily - and that's a cost-for-cost scenario. Zerg produce mutas infinitely faster than terran can produce thors, plus thors are slow and very easily caught out of position. Turrets are good against mutas, yes. But you need about 10 turrets to deal with the initial mutalisks that the zerg throw at you (about 8 or so, unless they do the fast 20 muta build that someone mentioned earlier) due to the fact that without the turrets, you can't do anything. The mutalisks have already achieved goal 1- impact your econ, which lets them accomplish goal 2- retain complete map control. Again - not saying terran can't do anything against it, but it's the same argument you zerg were using a few months back about terran deathballs. Or maybe it was protoss, but "It takes a TON more skill to counter them [in this case, mutas] than it takes to use them." So let's see - since thors are pretty much useless (just admit it, unless you're bad at magic boxing, which I can't help you with - I don't play zerg) against mutalisks unless you have them en mass - you're forced to go mass marine/medivac with some siege tank backup. Zerg, who should have 5 bases or so post muta harass makes an easy transition (since they should already have about 100 lings/blings on the field) to about 15 infestors, which essentially counters...everything in the game. Yay fungal growth. From there, it's an easy step to brood lord > ultra, all the while the terran is fighting to hold on to his third, whereas the zerg's taken over the map and eating popcorn.
They're only useless when you don't know how to use them. It's not the problem of magic box or not, Thors are good because of their range... You can put one thor at some point, and mutas have to go to him to kill it, then place marine near and recolt the golds. That's why, when the muta ball is too big, one or two thors do wonder : their range, not their splash. The same for the base, you can't defend with ONE THOR, or even two thors, you need tower, and one thor to drive them off or force them to reach your thor to kill it, while he is chilling out between towers.
The only problem with muta is that it force you to micro better, and low level players don't like that kind of units.
|
On November 11 2011 05:34 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 02:44 Celebreth wrote:On November 11 2011 02:32 WhiteDog wrote:On November 11 2011 01:56 Celebreth wrote:On November 11 2011 01:43 foxmeep wrote:
The only people consistently losing to mutas are ones that don't know how to pressure efficiently. Of course you are going to lose if you sit in your base and try to defend mutas for 15 mins. Move out before their spire is up, you force Zerg to build units or die. You don't even have to kill much, or even anything at all, then retreat.
If Zerg commits to mass mutas, move out again, you can easily leave enough units in your base to not take huge amounts of damage. The way to beat mutas is to utilise the fact that they are almost useless in combat (for their cost).
Anti-Muta 101 - what do mutas cost a lot of? Gas. What else can Zerg build? Lings. What uses 0 gas and rapes lings. Zealots and marines. If Zerg doesn't commit his gas to anything apart from mutas, then neither do you towards muta counters, in which case your army is always going to win in a straight up battle. Force Zerg to spend his gas elsewhere or die.
The mass muta situation is exactly the same as the Protoss deathball situation was. Zerg cried that it was impossible to beat, and in part it still is. But then Zerg found ways to deal with Protoss before they ever accumulated the deathball.
So in other words you're saying kill a zerg within ten minutes or you lose the game due to them getting one unit that's just TOO good at harass. I've played games where I have constant pressure on zerg, they turtle it and get their mutas, force me to turtle due to harass and just go mass infestor/broodlord. When I get the vikings to hold off the broodlords, fifteen ultras come stomping in. The issue is that there is no real counter to the muta HARASS. Counters to mutalisks themselves? Yes. But they're also SO fast it's extraordinarily difficult to do any damage to a skilled player's mutalisks, and all the while that muta deathball is growing. For terran players - it's EXTREMELY difficult to drop when you're being harassed by mutas (You're sacrificing your anti-muta harass unit and there's a good chance they'll spot and intercept the drop with the muta deathblob). This leads to a lack of ability to do anything but turtle until you die. For protoss - if you move out with your army to do...well anything, really, it's a base-trade scenario that the zerg generally will win 'cause they're outside your base when you DO move out, and they have a buncha spines/infestors to slow you down. Either way, the mutalisk as a singular unit isn't quite overpowered, but their harassment potential certainly is - and when they get up to deathball size, they're damn impossible to fight (I approve of the new HOTS units, in case you were wondering Does the shredder work against air too? ) Marine just crush mutas, thors are good too, turrets too. All those are efficient, the only advantage muta has is their mobility. Also, I find your comment funny considering the fact that zerg just could not do anything against protoss deathball for a long long time, and nobody thought it was not balanced. You don't specially need to harass to gain against muta, but a timing attack works wonder, and you also can maccro up. Don't tell me terran can"t do shit against muta because that's ridiculous. Not saying they can't do anything - just that it takes WAY more skill and micro/macro capabilities to chase them off (not even talking about killing) than it does to muta harass while the zerg is macroing + expanding. Also, thors die SO hard to a medium sized muta swarm. All you have to do is not bunch up - not hard considering how small the thor's air splash is. 4 mutas can take out a thor very easily - and that's a cost-for-cost scenario. Zerg produce mutas infinitely faster than terran can produce thors, plus thors are slow and very easily caught out of position. Turrets are good against mutas, yes. But you need about 10 turrets to deal with the initial mutalisks that the zerg throw at you (about 8 or so, unless they do the fast 20 muta build that someone mentioned earlier) due to the fact that without the turrets, you can't do anything. The mutalisks have already achieved goal 1- impact your econ, which lets them accomplish goal 2- retain complete map control. Again - not saying terran can't do anything against it, but it's the same argument you zerg were using a few months back about terran deathballs. Or maybe it was protoss, but "It takes a TON more skill to counter them [in this case, mutas] than it takes to use them." So let's see - since thors are pretty much useless (just admit it, unless you're bad at magic boxing, which I can't help you with - I don't play zerg) against mutalisks unless you have them en mass - you're forced to go mass marine/medivac with some siege tank backup. Zerg, who should have 5 bases or so post muta harass makes an easy transition (since they should already have about 100 lings/blings on the field) to about 15 infestors, which essentially counters...everything in the game. Yay fungal growth. From there, it's an easy step to brood lord > ultra, all the while the terran is fighting to hold on to his third, whereas the zerg's taken over the map and eating popcorn. They're only useless when you don't know how to use them. It's not the problem of magic box or not, Thors are good because of their range... You can put one thor at some point, and mutas have to go to him to kill it, then place marine near and recolt the golds. That's why, when the muta ball is too big, one or two thors do wonder : their range, not their splash. The same for the base, you can't defend with ONE THOR, or even two thors, you need tower, and one thor to drive them off or force them to reach your thor to kill it, while he is chilling out between towers. The only problem with muta is that it force you to micro better, and low level players don't like that kind of units.
Finally someone that understand that the thor is a great unit. I wanna add that just one thor can make it really hard to snipe units and buildings. You cant magic box into a base/army with marines/turrets and if you snipe something the thor will/can do splash dmg on most of the mutas.
I just wanna add, its the same concept with storm.
|
On November 11 2011 23:55 mec wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 05:34 WhiteDog wrote:On November 11 2011 02:44 Celebreth wrote:On November 11 2011 02:32 WhiteDog wrote:On November 11 2011 01:56 Celebreth wrote:On November 11 2011 01:43 foxmeep wrote:
The only people consistently losing to mutas are ones that don't know how to pressure efficiently. Of course you are going to lose if you sit in your base and try to defend mutas for 15 mins. Move out before their spire is up, you force Zerg to build units or die. You don't even have to kill much, or even anything at all, then retreat.
If Zerg commits to mass mutas, move out again, you can easily leave enough units in your base to not take huge amounts of damage. The way to beat mutas is to utilise the fact that they are almost useless in combat (for their cost).
Anti-Muta 101 - what do mutas cost a lot of? Gas. What else can Zerg build? Lings. What uses 0 gas and rapes lings. Zealots and marines. If Zerg doesn't commit his gas to anything apart from mutas, then neither do you towards muta counters, in which case your army is always going to win in a straight up battle. Force Zerg to spend his gas elsewhere or die.
The mass muta situation is exactly the same as the Protoss deathball situation was. Zerg cried that it was impossible to beat, and in part it still is. But then Zerg found ways to deal with Protoss before they ever accumulated the deathball.
So in other words you're saying kill a zerg within ten minutes or you lose the game due to them getting one unit that's just TOO good at harass. I've played games where I have constant pressure on zerg, they turtle it and get their mutas, force me to turtle due to harass and just go mass infestor/broodlord. When I get the vikings to hold off the broodlords, fifteen ultras come stomping in. The issue is that there is no real counter to the muta HARASS. Counters to mutalisks themselves? Yes. But they're also SO fast it's extraordinarily difficult to do any damage to a skilled player's mutalisks, and all the while that muta deathball is growing. For terran players - it's EXTREMELY difficult to drop when you're being harassed by mutas (You're sacrificing your anti-muta harass unit and there's a good chance they'll spot and intercept the drop with the muta deathblob). This leads to a lack of ability to do anything but turtle until you die. For protoss - if you move out with your army to do...well anything, really, it's a base-trade scenario that the zerg generally will win 'cause they're outside your base when you DO move out, and they have a buncha spines/infestors to slow you down. Either way, the mutalisk as a singular unit isn't quite overpowered, but their harassment potential certainly is - and when they get up to deathball size, they're damn impossible to fight (I approve of the new HOTS units, in case you were wondering Does the shredder work against air too? ) Marine just crush mutas, thors are good too, turrets too. All those are efficient, the only advantage muta has is their mobility. Also, I find your comment funny considering the fact that zerg just could not do anything against protoss deathball for a long long time, and nobody thought it was not balanced. You don't specially need to harass to gain against muta, but a timing attack works wonder, and you also can maccro up. Don't tell me terran can"t do shit against muta because that's ridiculous. Not saying they can't do anything - just that it takes WAY more skill and micro/macro capabilities to chase them off (not even talking about killing) than it does to muta harass while the zerg is macroing + expanding. Also, thors die SO hard to a medium sized muta swarm. All you have to do is not bunch up - not hard considering how small the thor's air splash is. 4 mutas can take out a thor very easily - and that's a cost-for-cost scenario. Zerg produce mutas infinitely faster than terran can produce thors, plus thors are slow and very easily caught out of position. Turrets are good against mutas, yes. But you need about 10 turrets to deal with the initial mutalisks that the zerg throw at you (about 8 or so, unless they do the fast 20 muta build that someone mentioned earlier) due to the fact that without the turrets, you can't do anything. The mutalisks have already achieved goal 1- impact your econ, which lets them accomplish goal 2- retain complete map control. Again - not saying terran can't do anything against it, but it's the same argument you zerg were using a few months back about terran deathballs. Or maybe it was protoss, but "It takes a TON more skill to counter them [in this case, mutas] than it takes to use them." So let's see - since thors are pretty much useless (just admit it, unless you're bad at magic boxing, which I can't help you with - I don't play zerg) against mutalisks unless you have them en mass - you're forced to go mass marine/medivac with some siege tank backup. Zerg, who should have 5 bases or so post muta harass makes an easy transition (since they should already have about 100 lings/blings on the field) to about 15 infestors, which essentially counters...everything in the game. Yay fungal growth. From there, it's an easy step to brood lord > ultra, all the while the terran is fighting to hold on to his third, whereas the zerg's taken over the map and eating popcorn. They're only useless when you don't know how to use them. It's not the problem of magic box or not, Thors are good because of their range... You can put one thor at some point, and mutas have to go to him to kill it, then place marine near and recolt the golds. That's why, when the muta ball is too big, one or two thors do wonder : their range, not their splash. The same for the base, you can't defend with ONE THOR, or even two thors, you need tower, and one thor to drive them off or force them to reach your thor to kill it, while he is chilling out between towers. The only problem with muta is that it force you to micro better, and low level players don't like that kind of units. Finally someone that understand that the thor is a great unit. I wanna add that just one thor can make it really hard to snipe units and buildings. You cant magic box into a base/army with marines/turrets and if you snipe something the thor will/can do splash dmg on most of the mutas. I just wanna add, its the same concept with storm.
Actually now you can snipe units without breaking magic box while clicking inside of it, since atmo discovered you can press and hold the hold position button and then just right click on the unit you want to snipe.
Yeah, the game is apparently advanced enough to keep the focus fire on even after it is told to hold position.
More on this thread.
|
On November 12 2011 00:06 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 23:55 mec wrote:On November 11 2011 05:34 WhiteDog wrote:On November 11 2011 02:44 Celebreth wrote:On November 11 2011 02:32 WhiteDog wrote:On November 11 2011 01:56 Celebreth wrote:On November 11 2011 01:43 foxmeep wrote:
The only people consistently losing to mutas are ones that don't know how to pressure efficiently. Of course you are going to lose if you sit in your base and try to defend mutas for 15 mins. Move out before their spire is up, you force Zerg to build units or die. You don't even have to kill much, or even anything at all, then retreat.
If Zerg commits to mass mutas, move out again, you can easily leave enough units in your base to not take huge amounts of damage. The way to beat mutas is to utilise the fact that they are almost useless in combat (for their cost).
Anti-Muta 101 - what do mutas cost a lot of? Gas. What else can Zerg build? Lings. What uses 0 gas and rapes lings. Zealots and marines. If Zerg doesn't commit his gas to anything apart from mutas, then neither do you towards muta counters, in which case your army is always going to win in a straight up battle. Force Zerg to spend his gas elsewhere or die.
The mass muta situation is exactly the same as the Protoss deathball situation was. Zerg cried that it was impossible to beat, and in part it still is. But then Zerg found ways to deal with Protoss before they ever accumulated the deathball.
So in other words you're saying kill a zerg within ten minutes or you lose the game due to them getting one unit that's just TOO good at harass. I've played games where I have constant pressure on zerg, they turtle it and get their mutas, force me to turtle due to harass and just go mass infestor/broodlord. When I get the vikings to hold off the broodlords, fifteen ultras come stomping in. The issue is that there is no real counter to the muta HARASS. Counters to mutalisks themselves? Yes. But they're also SO fast it's extraordinarily difficult to do any damage to a skilled player's mutalisks, and all the while that muta deathball is growing. For terran players - it's EXTREMELY difficult to drop when you're being harassed by mutas (You're sacrificing your anti-muta harass unit and there's a good chance they'll spot and intercept the drop with the muta deathblob). This leads to a lack of ability to do anything but turtle until you die. For protoss - if you move out with your army to do...well anything, really, it's a base-trade scenario that the zerg generally will win 'cause they're outside your base when you DO move out, and they have a buncha spines/infestors to slow you down. Either way, the mutalisk as a singular unit isn't quite overpowered, but their harassment potential certainly is - and when they get up to deathball size, they're damn impossible to fight (I approve of the new HOTS units, in case you were wondering Does the shredder work against air too? ) Marine just crush mutas, thors are good too, turrets too. All those are efficient, the only advantage muta has is their mobility. Also, I find your comment funny considering the fact that zerg just could not do anything against protoss deathball for a long long time, and nobody thought it was not balanced. You don't specially need to harass to gain against muta, but a timing attack works wonder, and you also can maccro up. Don't tell me terran can"t do shit against muta because that's ridiculous. Not saying they can't do anything - just that it takes WAY more skill and micro/macro capabilities to chase them off (not even talking about killing) than it does to muta harass while the zerg is macroing + expanding. Also, thors die SO hard to a medium sized muta swarm. All you have to do is not bunch up - not hard considering how small the thor's air splash is. 4 mutas can take out a thor very easily - and that's a cost-for-cost scenario. Zerg produce mutas infinitely faster than terran can produce thors, plus thors are slow and very easily caught out of position. Turrets are good against mutas, yes. But you need about 10 turrets to deal with the initial mutalisks that the zerg throw at you (about 8 or so, unless they do the fast 20 muta build that someone mentioned earlier) due to the fact that without the turrets, you can't do anything. The mutalisks have already achieved goal 1- impact your econ, which lets them accomplish goal 2- retain complete map control. Again - not saying terran can't do anything against it, but it's the same argument you zerg were using a few months back about terran deathballs. Or maybe it was protoss, but "It takes a TON more skill to counter them [in this case, mutas] than it takes to use them." So let's see - since thors are pretty much useless (just admit it, unless you're bad at magic boxing, which I can't help you with - I don't play zerg) against mutalisks unless you have them en mass - you're forced to go mass marine/medivac with some siege tank backup. Zerg, who should have 5 bases or so post muta harass makes an easy transition (since they should already have about 100 lings/blings on the field) to about 15 infestors, which essentially counters...everything in the game. Yay fungal growth. From there, it's an easy step to brood lord > ultra, all the while the terran is fighting to hold on to his third, whereas the zerg's taken over the map and eating popcorn. They're only useless when you don't know how to use them. It's not the problem of magic box or not, Thors are good because of their range... You can put one thor at some point, and mutas have to go to him to kill it, then place marine near and recolt the golds. That's why, when the muta ball is too big, one or two thors do wonder : their range, not their splash. The same for the base, you can't defend with ONE THOR, or even two thors, you need tower, and one thor to drive them off or force them to reach your thor to kill it, while he is chilling out between towers. The only problem with muta is that it force you to micro better, and low level players don't like that kind of units. Finally someone that understand that the thor is a great unit. I wanna add that just one thor can make it really hard to snipe units and buildings. You cant magic box into a base/army with marines/turrets and if you snipe something the thor will/can do splash dmg on most of the mutas. I just wanna add, its the same concept with storm. Actually now you can snipe units without breaking magic box while clicking inside of it, since atmo discovered you can press and hold the hold position button and then just right click on the unit you want to snipe. Yeah, the game is apparently advanced enough to keep the focus fire on even after it is told to hold position. More on this thread.
The problem with focus firing while magic boxing is not the actual focus firing but that not all/enough units will be in range to kill the stuff REAL quickl (which is what makes huge Mutaballs so strong.. Fly in, 3-4 salovs --> building down)...
|
On November 12 2011 00:10 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 00:06 Mehukannu wrote:On November 11 2011 23:55 mec wrote:On November 11 2011 05:34 WhiteDog wrote:On November 11 2011 02:44 Celebreth wrote:On November 11 2011 02:32 WhiteDog wrote:On November 11 2011 01:56 Celebreth wrote:On November 11 2011 01:43 foxmeep wrote:
The only people consistently losing to mutas are ones that don't know how to pressure efficiently. Of course you are going to lose if you sit in your base and try to defend mutas for 15 mins. Move out before their spire is up, you force Zerg to build units or die. You don't even have to kill much, or even anything at all, then retreat.
If Zerg commits to mass mutas, move out again, you can easily leave enough units in your base to not take huge amounts of damage. The way to beat mutas is to utilise the fact that they are almost useless in combat (for their cost).
Anti-Muta 101 - what do mutas cost a lot of? Gas. What else can Zerg build? Lings. What uses 0 gas and rapes lings. Zealots and marines. If Zerg doesn't commit his gas to anything apart from mutas, then neither do you towards muta counters, in which case your army is always going to win in a straight up battle. Force Zerg to spend his gas elsewhere or die.
The mass muta situation is exactly the same as the Protoss deathball situation was. Zerg cried that it was impossible to beat, and in part it still is. But then Zerg found ways to deal with Protoss before they ever accumulated the deathball.
So in other words you're saying kill a zerg within ten minutes or you lose the game due to them getting one unit that's just TOO good at harass. I've played games where I have constant pressure on zerg, they turtle it and get their mutas, force me to turtle due to harass and just go mass infestor/broodlord. When I get the vikings to hold off the broodlords, fifteen ultras come stomping in. The issue is that there is no real counter to the muta HARASS. Counters to mutalisks themselves? Yes. But they're also SO fast it's extraordinarily difficult to do any damage to a skilled player's mutalisks, and all the while that muta deathball is growing. For terran players - it's EXTREMELY difficult to drop when you're being harassed by mutas (You're sacrificing your anti-muta harass unit and there's a good chance they'll spot and intercept the drop with the muta deathblob). This leads to a lack of ability to do anything but turtle until you die. For protoss - if you move out with your army to do...well anything, really, it's a base-trade scenario that the zerg generally will win 'cause they're outside your base when you DO move out, and they have a buncha spines/infestors to slow you down. Either way, the mutalisk as a singular unit isn't quite overpowered, but their harassment potential certainly is - and when they get up to deathball size, they're damn impossible to fight (I approve of the new HOTS units, in case you were wondering Does the shredder work against air too? ) Marine just crush mutas, thors are good too, turrets too. All those are efficient, the only advantage muta has is their mobility. Also, I find your comment funny considering the fact that zerg just could not do anything against protoss deathball for a long long time, and nobody thought it was not balanced. You don't specially need to harass to gain against muta, but a timing attack works wonder, and you also can maccro up. Don't tell me terran can"t do shit against muta because that's ridiculous. Not saying they can't do anything - just that it takes WAY more skill and micro/macro capabilities to chase them off (not even talking about killing) than it does to muta harass while the zerg is macroing + expanding. Also, thors die SO hard to a medium sized muta swarm. All you have to do is not bunch up - not hard considering how small the thor's air splash is. 4 mutas can take out a thor very easily - and that's a cost-for-cost scenario. Zerg produce mutas infinitely faster than terran can produce thors, plus thors are slow and very easily caught out of position. Turrets are good against mutas, yes. But you need about 10 turrets to deal with the initial mutalisks that the zerg throw at you (about 8 or so, unless they do the fast 20 muta build that someone mentioned earlier) due to the fact that without the turrets, you can't do anything. The mutalisks have already achieved goal 1- impact your econ, which lets them accomplish goal 2- retain complete map control. Again - not saying terran can't do anything against it, but it's the same argument you zerg were using a few months back about terran deathballs. Or maybe it was protoss, but "It takes a TON more skill to counter them [in this case, mutas] than it takes to use them." So let's see - since thors are pretty much useless (just admit it, unless you're bad at magic boxing, which I can't help you with - I don't play zerg) against mutalisks unless you have them en mass - you're forced to go mass marine/medivac with some siege tank backup. Zerg, who should have 5 bases or so post muta harass makes an easy transition (since they should already have about 100 lings/blings on the field) to about 15 infestors, which essentially counters...everything in the game. Yay fungal growth. From there, it's an easy step to brood lord > ultra, all the while the terran is fighting to hold on to his third, whereas the zerg's taken over the map and eating popcorn. They're only useless when you don't know how to use them. It's not the problem of magic box or not, Thors are good because of their range... You can put one thor at some point, and mutas have to go to him to kill it, then place marine near and recolt the golds. That's why, when the muta ball is too big, one or two thors do wonder : their range, not their splash. The same for the base, you can't defend with ONE THOR, or even two thors, you need tower, and one thor to drive them off or force them to reach your thor to kill it, while he is chilling out between towers. The only problem with muta is that it force you to micro better, and low level players don't like that kind of units. Finally someone that understand that the thor is a great unit. I wanna add that just one thor can make it really hard to snipe units and buildings. You cant magic box into a base/army with marines/turrets and if you snipe something the thor will/can do splash dmg on most of the mutas. I just wanna add, its the same concept with storm. Actually now you can snipe units without breaking magic box while clicking inside of it, since atmo discovered you can press and hold the hold position button and then just right click on the unit you want to snipe. Yeah, the game is apparently advanced enough to keep the focus fire on even after it is told to hold position. More on this thread. The problem with focus firing while magic boxing is not the actual focus firing but that not all/enough units will be in range to kill the stuff REAL quickl (which is what makes huge Mutaballs so strong.. Fly in, 3-4 salovs --> building down)...
Well, it is there so that you can magic box focus fire thors without losing most of them doing so, but it really is a choice between being able snipe stuff fast or not losing a lot of mutas to splash attacks.
Your call, really. I just hope you make right decision if that moment ever comes. 
|
I'm no expert, but wouldn't aggressive stargate play be a good counter to fast mutas? Stargates hit before mutas come up. Something along the lines of FFE -> 2 stargates -> chronoing out several void rays and then reinforcing with phoenixes. I believe this hits before mutas or hydras come up, and phoenixes can handle either one of those in small numbers very well, while also pinning queens for voids.
yay/nay?
|
On November 12 2011 00:10 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 00:06 Mehukannu wrote:On November 11 2011 23:55 mec wrote:On November 11 2011 05:34 WhiteDog wrote:On November 11 2011 02:44 Celebreth wrote:On November 11 2011 02:32 WhiteDog wrote:On November 11 2011 01:56 Celebreth wrote:On November 11 2011 01:43 foxmeep wrote:
The only people consistently losing to mutas are ones that don't know how to pressure efficiently. Of course you are going to lose if you sit in your base and try to defend mutas for 15 mins. Move out before their spire is up, you force Zerg to build units or die. You don't even have to kill much, or even anything at all, then retreat.
If Zerg commits to mass mutas, move out again, you can easily leave enough units in your base to not take huge amounts of damage. The way to beat mutas is to utilise the fact that they are almost useless in combat (for their cost).
Anti-Muta 101 - what do mutas cost a lot of? Gas. What else can Zerg build? Lings. What uses 0 gas and rapes lings. Zealots and marines. If Zerg doesn't commit his gas to anything apart from mutas, then neither do you towards muta counters, in which case your army is always going to win in a straight up battle. Force Zerg to spend his gas elsewhere or die.
The mass muta situation is exactly the same as the Protoss deathball situation was. Zerg cried that it was impossible to beat, and in part it still is. But then Zerg found ways to deal with Protoss before they ever accumulated the deathball.
So in other words you're saying kill a zerg within ten minutes or you lose the game due to them getting one unit that's just TOO good at harass. I've played games where I have constant pressure on zerg, they turtle it and get their mutas, force me to turtle due to harass and just go mass infestor/broodlord. When I get the vikings to hold off the broodlords, fifteen ultras come stomping in. The issue is that there is no real counter to the muta HARASS. Counters to mutalisks themselves? Yes. But they're also SO fast it's extraordinarily difficult to do any damage to a skilled player's mutalisks, and all the while that muta deathball is growing. For terran players - it's EXTREMELY difficult to drop when you're being harassed by mutas (You're sacrificing your anti-muta harass unit and there's a good chance they'll spot and intercept the drop with the muta deathblob). This leads to a lack of ability to do anything but turtle until you die. For protoss - if you move out with your army to do...well anything, really, it's a base-trade scenario that the zerg generally will win 'cause they're outside your base when you DO move out, and they have a buncha spines/infestors to slow you down. Either way, the mutalisk as a singular unit isn't quite overpowered, but their harassment potential certainly is - and when they get up to deathball size, they're damn impossible to fight (I approve of the new HOTS units, in case you were wondering Does the shredder work against air too? ) Marine just crush mutas, thors are good too, turrets too. All those are efficient, the only advantage muta has is their mobility. Also, I find your comment funny considering the fact that zerg just could not do anything against protoss deathball for a long long time, and nobody thought it was not balanced. You don't specially need to harass to gain against muta, but a timing attack works wonder, and you also can maccro up. Don't tell me terran can"t do shit against muta because that's ridiculous. Not saying they can't do anything - just that it takes WAY more skill and micro/macro capabilities to chase them off (not even talking about killing) than it does to muta harass while the zerg is macroing + expanding. Also, thors die SO hard to a medium sized muta swarm. All you have to do is not bunch up - not hard considering how small the thor's air splash is. 4 mutas can take out a thor very easily - and that's a cost-for-cost scenario. Zerg produce mutas infinitely faster than terran can produce thors, plus thors are slow and very easily caught out of position. Turrets are good against mutas, yes. But you need about 10 turrets to deal with the initial mutalisks that the zerg throw at you (about 8 or so, unless they do the fast 20 muta build that someone mentioned earlier) due to the fact that without the turrets, you can't do anything. The mutalisks have already achieved goal 1- impact your econ, which lets them accomplish goal 2- retain complete map control. Again - not saying terran can't do anything against it, but it's the same argument you zerg were using a few months back about terran deathballs. Or maybe it was protoss, but "It takes a TON more skill to counter them [in this case, mutas] than it takes to use them." So let's see - since thors are pretty much useless (just admit it, unless you're bad at magic boxing, which I can't help you with - I don't play zerg) against mutalisks unless you have them en mass - you're forced to go mass marine/medivac with some siege tank backup. Zerg, who should have 5 bases or so post muta harass makes an easy transition (since they should already have about 100 lings/blings on the field) to about 15 infestors, which essentially counters...everything in the game. Yay fungal growth. From there, it's an easy step to brood lord > ultra, all the while the terran is fighting to hold on to his third, whereas the zerg's taken over the map and eating popcorn. They're only useless when you don't know how to use them. It's not the problem of magic box or not, Thors are good because of their range... You can put one thor at some point, and mutas have to go to him to kill it, then place marine near and recolt the golds. That's why, when the muta ball is too big, one or two thors do wonder : their range, not their splash. The same for the base, you can't defend with ONE THOR, or even two thors, you need tower, and one thor to drive them off or force them to reach your thor to kill it, while he is chilling out between towers. The only problem with muta is that it force you to micro better, and low level players don't like that kind of units. Finally someone that understand that the thor is a great unit. I wanna add that just one thor can make it really hard to snipe units and buildings. You cant magic box into a base/army with marines/turrets and if you snipe something the thor will/can do splash dmg on most of the mutas. I just wanna add, its the same concept with storm. Actually now you can snipe units without breaking magic box while clicking inside of it, since atmo discovered you can press and hold the hold position button and then just right click on the unit you want to snipe. Yeah, the game is apparently advanced enough to keep the focus fire on even after it is told to hold position. More on this thread. The problem with focus firing while magic boxing is not the actual focus firing but that not all/enough units will be in range to kill the stuff REAL quickl (which is what makes huge Mutaballs so strong.. Fly in, 3-4 salovs --> building down)...
Yep, magic boxing one lone, isolated Thor works really well. As you add more Thors, marines, or turrets, you lose more muta-hp/mutas before they ever begin firing. In order to magic box, some of your mutas will first have to actually fly past those units, and only then stop/hold and begin firing.
There's a diminishing return to magic boxing in that regard as well.
That's why 1 Thor plus 10 marines in the same area are so much more potent vs mutas. If you magic box, those marines will do a ton of dps before you ever begin firing. And if you don't ...
|
On November 12 2011 01:08 Feidspar wrote:
I'm no expert, but wouldn't aggressive stargate play be a good counter to fast mutas? Stargates hit before mutas come up. Something along the lines of FFE -> 2 stargates -> chronoing out several void rays and then reinforcing with phoenixes. I believe this hits before mutas or hydras come up, and phoenixes can handle either one of those in small numbers very well, while also pinning queens for voids.
yay/nay?
While you are correct low numbers of phoenix vs mutalisks favors towards phoenix, large numbers greatly favors mutalisks, unless of course you have the perfect phoenix micro or very high apm. Then phoenix will most likely win regardless of how many mutalisks, but that is not something that feels really possible due to the other things you have to do besides micro your phoenixes.
|
Well that's why you get in their face before he gets 712 mutalisks. If you're hovering over his hatcheries with voids and phoenixes those mutas are not going to build up.
|
On November 12 2011 01:15 eYeball wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 01:08 Feidspar wrote:
I'm no expert, but wouldn't aggressive stargate play be a good counter to fast mutas? Stargates hit before mutas come up. Something along the lines of FFE -> 2 stargates -> chronoing out several void rays and then reinforcing with phoenixes. I believe this hits before mutas or hydras come up, and phoenixes can handle either one of those in small numbers very well, while also pinning queens for voids.
yay/nay? While you are correct low numbers of phoenix vs mutalisks favors towards phoenix, large numbers greatly favors mutalisks, unless of course you have the perfect phoenix micro or very high apm. Then phoenix will most likely win regardless of how many mutalisks, but that is not something that feels really possible due to the other things you have to do besides micro your phoenixes.
I don't think the problem is that Mutas scale better than Phoenix, the problem is one of producing enough Phoenixes in time.
And if the Zerg has gotten way ahead due to you sitting back and producing enough Phoenixes, he can probably afford to remax on Roach/ling or something and then what are your Phoenixes worth?
BTW, if you're P and you face Mutas and you're actually trying to get Phoenix out, get upgrades! Often I don't see that and I don't understand why. Armor is very good vs Mutalisk splash, and you get 20% more damage vs light per Phoenix with +1 weapons.
|
Switzerland2892 Posts
On November 12 2011 01:18 Feidspar wrote:
Well that's why you get in their face before he gets 712 mutalisks. If you're hovering over his hatcheries with voids and phoenixes those mutas are not going to build up.
Protoss players do a new kind of push with a lot of air units nowadays (something like 3 void and 4 phoenixes) and gateway units. If it kills the zerg, then you don't really have any muta problem.
The problem is that if the zerg holds, they simply don't have to go for mutas and just mass units and kill you (air units don't do really well against massive zerg armies). That's one of the reason many players don't like to overcommit in air units.
|
I am waiting for Terrans to finally start using Ravens against muta play. Mid/late game terrans seem to accumulate a lot of gas. Having at least 1 raven per base to drop PDD or fire off HSM is a great thing to do. Many zergs will not be able to get the right muta away from the flock before HSM hits. They would be able to run away with all mutas but in that case terran "won". Those mutas would not be attacking towers, workers or buildings.
|
On November 12 2011 01:08 Feidspar wrote:
I'm no expert, but wouldn't aggressive stargate play be a good counter to fast mutas? Stargates hit before mutas come up. Something along the lines of FFE -> 2 stargates -> chronoing out several void rays and then reinforcing with phoenixes. I believe this hits before mutas or hydras come up, and phoenixes can handle either one of those in small numbers very well, while also pinning queens for voids.
yay/nay?
Sadly Nay. Stargate doesn't do enough damage to be effective. The best you can do is a few queens, drones and an overlord or two. While that seems like a lot in reality zerg just power drones, throws up a spore or 2 at each base (rendering your air useless) LOL ever see the Mondragon ZvP unit counter chart?
IMO Muta is effective atm. Its high risk but effective still. The thing vs both match ups is that mutas are fast enough that they do not have to engage unless the Z player wants to. You can harass, pick off 2-3 "things" and run away without losing anything. Cause ground units for both P and T may win in a death ball vs death ball match but Z should never go toe to toe with mutas anyways. The power of them is they allow you to choose the engagement.
I think P defiantly needs an effective air unit that counters a muta ball but a tier 3 slow moving unit isn't it. Unless the attack range on the tempest is higher than the muta vision range why would you ever attack it when you can just dance around it rendering it unless. I REALLY wish they would just make Carrier effective. It can easily be a solid unit with a little work but blizzard would rather replace it than try to fix it. Also on that note WTF on the mothership drop are you at least going to give me back my arbiter's?
This is getting long BUT last note. On the warhound vs thor. State of the game talked about it and I'm just going to direct you to that as they covered it very well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
