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On November 11 2011 01:15 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 00:54 Big J wrote:On November 11 2011 00:16 Thrombozyt wrote:On November 10 2011 23:30 Big J wrote:
Thors are great vs mutalisks. That's why good zergs don't even open mutalisks if they scout mech. Every good Terran has Mutatimings figuered out and will have 1thor and 2turrets/mineraline ready when the first 8mutalisks arrive. Mutalisks are then completly denied from harassing bases, as they can't combat stray thors+turrets when SCVs are near. Once Thor numbers get up in double digits with hellion support, it is lights out for every zerg unit that is not a broodlord, but you can't have them because you went mutalisks all game long. Now good luck basetrading muta/ling vs Thor/hellion. Hellions+PF will just roflstomp the zerglings, while a turretwall +maybe 1-2thors (minerals are no problem in mech play) are gonna keep it safe from the mutalisks.
And btw: show me that player that can handle a 11sight range air unit that is not gonna get shot by 10range thors, while harassing. (hint: It's like saying that a 4range phoenix counters infinite amounts of 3range mutalisks...)
But if you really think that mutalisks are so great vs Thors, please tell me why there are so many Code S Terrans who go Mech vs Zerg from time to time, and why a lot of Code S zergs don't even open mutalisks against Mech, but instead go roach and fast Hive instead, even though you claim that mutaliskplay is a freewin vs Mech.
Magicbox is a thing you use if you want to pick up stray thors that are badly timed in mech builds (single thor defense vs 10+ mutalisks, instead of standard double thor against 7-8 mutalisks) or that are used as a little bonus defense in biomech pushes, to give the marines more room to attack.
And about exponential scaling... You wanna know which unit is the best scaling unit in the game costwise? The stim/combatshield Marine. It scales FAR better than the mutalisk.
And yes, you are supposed to spread your marines on 3bases if you are encountering mutaplay. Every good Terran in the world is doing it when he goes biomech in TvZ, just like every good Zerg has to build spines and spread lings and infestors all over his bases against drops in mutaless play. If you don't want to multitask like that, you're free to play other styles like Thor/hellion or Bio, which both deny mutaliskplay completly, but therefore open other weaknesses (roach & early Hiveplay; infestor banling play). You don't even have to play terran if it isn't fun for you, if you can't handle mutalisks. Others do, and they show every TvZ they play that Terran can keep its 50+% winrate against every zergstyle out there.
Yes, maybe it's harder to defend vs mutalisks as to play them, but that's also true for TONS of aggressive TvZ strategies.
At the standard muta timing, having two thors in a bio mech build (1 per mineral line) is absurd, as it means you can be overrun due to a lack of siege tanks. Yes, if I am sure he goes muta, I can deny the initial harass, though that harass usually hits when you have to move out to attack his 3rd. You move out, either you push is completely denied, because you have no siege tanks as you made thors to defend at home, or mutas can deal damage and still be back in time for defense. Btw: 2 turrets per mineral line might be OK for the initial harass not to lose SCVs, but your structures and add-ons are still vulnerable, generating a serious delay in production. And honestly I would say that you don't see mutas vs mech, because you need gas for roaches and infestors that are better. Not because mutas are that bad. If you force many siege tanks with roaches and then go for a switch, mutas are a good choice, because they can deal with the thors if thors are the only anti air. Though usually mech play incorporates creeping around the map with turret coverage and thors + turrets are a tough. As an example look at July vs clide. Clide went bio mech and he went NUTS on his turrets, placing them in groups of 2-3 everywhere with marine batches everywhere. It just took one unlucky moment, where Clide decided to drop those marines and he got torn by less than 20 mutas, who cleaned up the medivac, then the 3 turrets and went to town on everything dealing a lot of damage. And had you seen the base before the attack you'd think that clide had gone too far with his muta defense. the 2thors are meant if you go mech. If you go biomech you don't need them and you don't want them, of course. Sadly, I haven't watched the game, only listened to the stream so I can't comment too much on that, but yeah, I know that mutas are a unit that is great to abuse weaknesses, but isn't it the same idea with drops? Or even more cruel: dropping while pushing out or double dropping. It's all the same concepts: Spreading out when you don't have to fight, gathering when you do have to fight. Also loading up units that are an essential part of your defense seems like a risk that Clide knew off, but still he did it. Also, your structures are rather tough, whilst easily defendible with the same marines that you want to have around for mineral defense as well. Losing an addon hurts, but if that's all his mutalisks are able to do and you're sitting on 3base, I can assure you that the zerg is shitting his pants at least as much as you do, because like every harass unit, mutas are supposed to do damage to a player. Well, after he had 8 marines and a medivac sandwiched by FIVE turrets and July didn't show his mutas for minutes, it's just logical to pick up and try to move out. The bad luck was that July was just outside of vision. For the general muta defense, why don't you need thors? Because you have marines? At the 11 minute mark you usually sit on 2 base and are about to push out or are just pushing. Often you have no medivacs, so every stim hurts. You are NOT sitting on 3 base most maps, because you can hardly defend 2 and with add-on sniping, espcially with reactors around, you deal TONS of damage due to lost production time. Sitting on two base not able to leave because you cannot have enough static defense to deter a sack of your base by mutas is one of the most frustrating things and the more bases you have the worse the situation. Usually even bio mech is forced into thos, because mutas scale so well. Yes, marine in a straight up fight scale better, but marines can only defend one area, while mutas can threaten all areas. Thus mutas stack way better, because as the game progresses, you have to spread out more.
At the 11min mark you should already be on your way back home, because mutas pop 10:00-10:30 and if you don't kill him with your push before mutas arrive or at least take all zerg units (especially mutalisks/infestors) with your marines to their grave, then you don't have enough marines to fly out your 3rd orbital, which should be finishing at home.
If you lose that first tank/marine force, it is basically gg in high level play if zerg went either infestors or mutalisks and he keeps most of them.
The mutalisk scenario will then look like: he contains you on 2bases until you have enough marines to defend 3 bases, which takes an awful amount of time (you're missing something like 20marines), while he is droning further ahead, because you can't threaten him. When you finally have enough to take a third it is just too late (13-14mins, zerg has 4bases/5-6hatcheries, 6gas) and your only reasonable choices are to either wait for max, or push out immidiatly once you have a force that can combat the mutalisk numbers. Either way, both of those pushes only have something like 20% successrate, as you're really far behind.
The infestor scenario will then look like: He goes 3base-4base fast Hive, either broodlord or Ultralisk while you're struggling to muster up a reasonable tankcount to combat Infestors. It's a little easier to come back from this, because a lot of zergs that go Infestors have trouble defending drops, but in highlevel play, the zerg will just park 1-2infestors per base, while you're completly unable to directly push him, because the only unit that you can produce besides tanks are marines, which suck in this situation as long as you don't have a really strong tankbackbone.
The same thing is true the other way round as well. If a zerg loses too many units (especially mutalisks or infestors), terrans can just pressure in and try to kill him with successive pushing (SCfou style), or just taking his bases earlier, while zerg has to restart muta/infestor production by zero.
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All this X can beat mutas in a straight fight is bullshit, you don't get to hit the mutalistk unless a) the zerg mess up b) you blink under them and get 1 round of shots.
Mutas are probably op because they force you to stay at your base, they are a 3.75 flying unit... and in case some ppl have forgot, they shoot air and ground, and they are far more useful on a proper engagement than lets say vikings or phoenix
"What the fuck is all this talk about people saying 24 to 30 mutas (or more!) being OP? If I dumped 3k min and 3k gas into just about any unit it'd be strong."
Do you realize you can commit to mass mutas because you have spinecrawlers to defend, something that P and T doesn't ?
I would love to get the equivalent of your 3k 3k on banshees, but guess what ,that's not viable.
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On November 11 2011 02:56 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 02:45 Roxy wrote:On November 11 2011 02:39 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 02:35 Roxy wrote:On November 11 2011 02:32 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 02:05 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 01:55 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 01:53 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 01:47 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 00:21 willyallthewei wrote:
I don't know that Mutas are OP, but I do know that they are extremely frustrating to play against Protoss.
The damn things are just so easy to control for zerg, so hard to stop for protoss. You can play near perfect as a protoss and lose to a relatively less skilled opponent who is going muta.
It is definitely frustrating. Actually you got it completely wrong. Muta play is the hardest for Zerg because it takes more micro then normal play. Mutas are useful if they are active all the time (this is a something only mutas let the Zerg player do as they are not melee, they are fast and fly unlike lings who are the other harass unit that you will use if you don't have mutas), and Zerg players need to still spread the creep, inject larva and do all the other macro things they usually do. When you get defeated by mutas that Zerg players played better then the usual ones you meet. Strongly disagree with this statement. Inject larva spread creep, you act like that stuff is rocket science. A decent zerg will do all these things and control the mutas fine. It is harder then toss macro and using mutas with all that is harder then standard zerg game. So Zerg that wins with mutas is higher skilled player, not lower skilled. Disagree completely. Any decent zerg player will do well enough with muta control to deal damage to toss and prevent them from leaving the base. Macroing during that time is not hard at all because you have no fear of recourse, how is that harder than standard zerg play where an extra round of drones can kill you? Then we agree to disagree. And it is way easier to defend because mutas are really weak direct combatants. You need to babysit them a lot for them to be useful. You cannot inject larva and spread creep while doing that. Do you know what DRG is most known for? Best muta control and one of the best inject larva. No, not every zerg is good with that as you say or they would all be DRG. The ones you meet that kill you with mutas are just better then you. Plain an simple. Instead of whining here accept that and start working on your mechanics and game. Now I understand why toss players lose so much and complain if mutas are difficult to them. Spreading units against fungals and EMP must be impossible then  How are mutas weak combatants? i'm pretty sure large numbers of mutas tear apart comparable army values of stalkers or pheonix protoss units are bad vs mutas Terran units are better, but less mobile. In either case, if protoss or terran move out of thei rbase to attack the zerg. the zerg can wreck their mineral line and still have the mutas back at base to join in the big engagement. You being sure means nothing when you can watch any pro game and see mutas all die once they are forced to engage the toss army. Same number of stalkers kill same number of mutas although mutas cost more. Add a few sentry to the mix and mutas are useless. And to get that huge number of mutas (30+) you need to successfuly harass. You cannot engage directly before that number of you lose badly even against much weaker forces. Toss just needs to defend well and not let mutas do much damage. as a matter of fact, i was just watching naniwa's stream where he got absolutely destroyed by mutalisks. he could not take a third. was on metalopolis every time he went to expand to third, mutas would poke into main. hed send stalkers to main. then ling/roach would come deny third. This happened about 8 times before naniwa decided to just all-in off 2 bases (at like the 16 minute mark) with about 95 supply. He opened with a standard FFE. Zerg did no early pressure. Nani had early blink and mostly stalkers in his army. Good idea about the sentries. i forgot that mutas cant target sentries. Having to split his army into 2 or 3 groups in order to defend harass left each group very vulnerable as it is known that protoss units are only strong in a ball and for cost can not hold their own vs ling/roach I also watched that game. Naniwa looked outplayed in that game. He looked like he gave up half way through. He also had people making fun of him in the background. Basing anything on one game means shit. But if you are so keen on doing that go watch Hero vs Crazymoving games from GSL ro48 Code A.
Go watch hero get rolled by muta the first game? then forced to open double stargate,then almost gets run over by the zerg going hyrda because he scouted the gimmicky 2 stargate.
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On November 11 2011 03:01 Roxy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 02:56 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 02:45 Roxy wrote:On November 11 2011 02:39 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 02:35 Roxy wrote:On November 11 2011 02:32 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 02:05 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 01:55 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 01:53 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 01:47 -Archangel- wrote:
[quote]
Actually you got it completely wrong. Muta play is the hardest for Zerg because it takes more micro then normal play. Mutas are useful if they are active all the time (this is a something only mutas let the Zerg player do as they are not melee, they are fast and fly unlike lings who are the other harass unit that you will use if you don't have mutas), and Zerg players need to still spread the creep, inject larva and do all the other macro things they usually do.
When you get defeated by mutas that Zerg players played better then the usual ones you meet. Strongly disagree with this statement. Inject larva spread creep, you act like that stuff is rocket science. A decent zerg will do all these things and control the mutas fine. It is harder then toss macro and using mutas with all that is harder then standard zerg game. So Zerg that wins with mutas is higher skilled player, not lower skilled. Disagree completely. Any decent zerg player will do well enough with muta control to deal damage to toss and prevent them from leaving the base. Macroing during that time is not hard at all because you have no fear of recourse, how is that harder than standard zerg play where an extra round of drones can kill you? Then we agree to disagree. And it is way easier to defend because mutas are really weak direct combatants. You need to babysit them a lot for them to be useful. You cannot inject larva and spread creep while doing that. Do you know what DRG is most known for? Best muta control and one of the best inject larva. No, not every zerg is good with that as you say or they would all be DRG. The ones you meet that kill you with mutas are just better then you. Plain an simple. Instead of whining here accept that and start working on your mechanics and game. Now I understand why toss players lose so much and complain if mutas are difficult to them. Spreading units against fungals and EMP must be impossible then How are mutas weak combatants? i'm pretty sure large numbers of mutas tear apart comparable army values of stalkers or pheonix protoss units are bad vs mutas Terran units are better, but less mobile. In either case, if protoss or terran move out of thei rbase to attack the zerg. the zerg can wreck their mineral line and still have the mutas back at base to join in the big engagement. You being sure means nothing when you can watch any pro game and see mutas all die once they are forced to engage the toss army. Same number of stalkers kill same number of mutas although mutas cost more. Add a few sentry to the mix and mutas are useless. And to get that huge number of mutas (30+) you need to successfuly harass. You cannot engage directly before that number of you lose badly even against much weaker forces. Toss just needs to defend well and not let mutas do much damage. as a matter of fact, i was just watching naniwa's stream where he got absolutely destroyed by mutalisks. he could not take a third. was on metalopolis every time he went to expand to third, mutas would poke into main. hed send stalkers to main. then ling/roach would come deny third. This happened about 8 times before naniwa decided to just all-in off 2 bases (at like the 16 minute mark) with about 95 supply. He opened with a standard FFE. Zerg did no early pressure. Nani had early blink and mostly stalkers in his army. Good idea about the sentries. i forgot that mutas cant target sentries. Having to split his army into 2 or 3 groups in order to defend harass left each group very vulnerable as it is known that protoss units are only strong in a ball and for cost can not hold their own vs ling/roach I also watched that game. Naniwa looked outplayed in that game. He looked like he gave up half way through. He also had people making fun of him in the background. Basing anything on one game means shit. But if you are so keen on doing that go watch Hero vs Crazymoving games from GSL ro48 Code A. Don't have a GSL subscription this season. Care to summarize? I'm guessing that Hero just got lucky and opened with 6gate blink stalker pressure. If so, that is not balance, that is getting lucky with a build order win. There is no way that he would have been able to scout enough from the zerg to decide to open blink stalkers.
Hero got rocked by a zerg who spammed mutas and lings all game and made a couple major mistakes with his muta control that would've lost him every single muta in a TvZ but unfortunately because of how much stalkers suck vs. light air, was able to retain his muta flock despite less than inspiring control.
The commentators however did a really good job of talking up Crazy moving, when the guy is mediocre and just uses an abusive strat on TDA which has a third and main that are inches apart by air, but extremely long by land. Sorry, calling it the way i see it.
Oh and Hero lost, despite the fact that Crazy moving built absolutely nothing but Muta ling the entire game when could've just tech switched and killed Hero off.
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On November 11 2011 03:03 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 03:01 Roxy wrote:On November 11 2011 02:56 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 02:45 Roxy wrote:On November 11 2011 02:39 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 02:35 Roxy wrote:On November 11 2011 02:32 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 02:05 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 01:55 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 01:53 willyallthewei wrote:
[quote]
Strongly disagree with this statement.
Inject larva spread creep, you act like that stuff is rocket science. A decent zerg will do all these things and control the mutas fine. It is harder then toss macro and using mutas with all that is harder then standard zerg game. So Zerg that wins with mutas is higher skilled player, not lower skilled. Disagree completely. Any decent zerg player will do well enough with muta control to deal damage to toss and prevent them from leaving the base. Macroing during that time is not hard at all because you have no fear of recourse, how is that harder than standard zerg play where an extra round of drones can kill you? Then we agree to disagree. And it is way easier to defend because mutas are really weak direct combatants. You need to babysit them a lot for them to be useful. You cannot inject larva and spread creep while doing that. Do you know what DRG is most known for? Best muta control and one of the best inject larva. No, not every zerg is good with that as you say or they would all be DRG. The ones you meet that kill you with mutas are just better then you. Plain an simple. Instead of whining here accept that and start working on your mechanics and game. Now I understand why toss players lose so much and complain if mutas are difficult to them. Spreading units against fungals and EMP must be impossible then How are mutas weak combatants? i'm pretty sure large numbers of mutas tear apart comparable army values of stalkers or pheonix protoss units are bad vs mutas Terran units are better, but less mobile. In either case, if protoss or terran move out of thei rbase to attack the zerg. the zerg can wreck their mineral line and still have the mutas back at base to join in the big engagement. You being sure means nothing when you can watch any pro game and see mutas all die once they are forced to engage the toss army. Same number of stalkers kill same number of mutas although mutas cost more. Add a few sentry to the mix and mutas are useless. And to get that huge number of mutas (30+) you need to successfuly harass. You cannot engage directly before that number of you lose badly even against much weaker forces. Toss just needs to defend well and not let mutas do much damage. as a matter of fact, i was just watching naniwa's stream where he got absolutely destroyed by mutalisks. he could not take a third. was on metalopolis every time he went to expand to third, mutas would poke into main. hed send stalkers to main. then ling/roach would come deny third. This happened about 8 times before naniwa decided to just all-in off 2 bases (at like the 16 minute mark) with about 95 supply. He opened with a standard FFE. Zerg did no early pressure. Nani had early blink and mostly stalkers in his army. Good idea about the sentries. i forgot that mutas cant target sentries. Having to split his army into 2 or 3 groups in order to defend harass left each group very vulnerable as it is known that protoss units are only strong in a ball and for cost can not hold their own vs ling/roach I also watched that game. Naniwa looked outplayed in that game. He looked like he gave up half way through. He also had people making fun of him in the background. Basing anything on one game means shit. But if you are so keen on doing that go watch Hero vs Crazymoving games from GSL ro48 Code A. Don't have a GSL subscription this season. Care to summarize? I'm guessing that Hero just got lucky and opened with 6gate blink stalker pressure. If so, that is not balance, that is getting lucky with a build order win. There is no way that he would have been able to scout enough from the zerg to decide to open blink stalkers. I think the first game is free, or it should be.
I dont see your argument.
I just watched the first game
I just witnessed a stargate opening into blink stalkers into templars get owned by mutas.
Point and case for me?
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On November 11 2011 03:12 Roxy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 03:03 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 03:01 Roxy wrote:On November 11 2011 02:56 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 02:45 Roxy wrote:On November 11 2011 02:39 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 02:35 Roxy wrote:On November 11 2011 02:32 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 02:05 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 01:55 -Archangel- wrote:
[quote]
It is harder then toss macro and using mutas with all that is harder then standard zerg game. So Zerg that wins with mutas is higher skilled player, not lower skilled. Disagree completely. Any decent zerg player will do well enough with muta control to deal damage to toss and prevent them from leaving the base. Macroing during that time is not hard at all because you have no fear of recourse, how is that harder than standard zerg play where an extra round of drones can kill you? Then we agree to disagree. And it is way easier to defend because mutas are really weak direct combatants. You need to babysit them a lot for them to be useful. You cannot inject larva and spread creep while doing that. Do you know what DRG is most known for? Best muta control and one of the best inject larva. No, not every zerg is good with that as you say or they would all be DRG. The ones you meet that kill you with mutas are just better then you. Plain an simple. Instead of whining here accept that and start working on your mechanics and game. Now I understand why toss players lose so much and complain if mutas are difficult to them. Spreading units against fungals and EMP must be impossible then How are mutas weak combatants? i'm pretty sure large numbers of mutas tear apart comparable army values of stalkers or pheonix protoss units are bad vs mutas Terran units are better, but less mobile. In either case, if protoss or terran move out of thei rbase to attack the zerg. the zerg can wreck their mineral line and still have the mutas back at base to join in the big engagement. You being sure means nothing when you can watch any pro game and see mutas all die once they are forced to engage the toss army. Same number of stalkers kill same number of mutas although mutas cost more. Add a few sentry to the mix and mutas are useless. And to get that huge number of mutas (30+) you need to successfuly harass. You cannot engage directly before that number of you lose badly even against much weaker forces. Toss just needs to defend well and not let mutas do much damage. as a matter of fact, i was just watching naniwa's stream where he got absolutely destroyed by mutalisks. he could not take a third. was on metalopolis every time he went to expand to third, mutas would poke into main. hed send stalkers to main. then ling/roach would come deny third. This happened about 8 times before naniwa decided to just all-in off 2 bases (at like the 16 minute mark) with about 95 supply. He opened with a standard FFE. Zerg did no early pressure. Nani had early blink and mostly stalkers in his army. Good idea about the sentries. i forgot that mutas cant target sentries. Having to split his army into 2 or 3 groups in order to defend harass left each group very vulnerable as it is known that protoss units are only strong in a ball and for cost can not hold their own vs ling/roach I also watched that game. Naniwa looked outplayed in that game. He looked like he gave up half way through. He also had people making fun of him in the background. Basing anything on one game means shit. But if you are so keen on doing that go watch Hero vs Crazymoving games from GSL ro48 Code A. Don't have a GSL subscription this season. Care to summarize? I'm guessing that Hero just got lucky and opened with 6gate blink stalker pressure. If so, that is not balance, that is getting lucky with a build order win. There is no way that he would have been able to scout enough from the zerg to decide to open blink stalkers. I think the first game is free, or it should be. I dont see your argument. I just watched the first game I just witnessed a stargate opening into blink stalkers into templars get owned by mutas. Point and case for me?
i guess because hero won the series he thinks he has some sort of argument.
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On November 11 2011 02:13 willyallthewei wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 02:08 Mjolnir wrote:On November 11 2011 00:49 EmilA wrote:On November 10 2011 14:31 Mjolnir wrote:On November 10 2011 14:13 ZorBa.G wrote:
Why not just do something with the stalker? Give it some kind of extra attack for air only.
As a Terran, there is nothing more annoying then well controlled mutas, they just circle your base all day whilst the zerg expos and drones up like a mad man!
Everyone complains about hellions before the patch, mutas are no freaking different IMO... It's practically a flying fkn Hellion! Not only can it shoot ground, but air also!
If Blizzard thinks Mutas are OP, I 100% agree!
Playing as Terran, I am continously trying to defend my base and get my 3rd up. Whenever I try to leave my base... I can't because I either end up as me losing or it's a base trade at best. Then, once you do actually get to leave your base, your next worry is banelings! So you spend all this work to actually get the point where you can somewhat safely leave your base and then you need to worry about freaking banes!
Either nerf the muta, or give us other race a better unit to counter it. I think Blizzard giving us Terrans the battlehellion and Warhound is awesome and I cannot wait to start making butter out of the zerg race! Terran has the easiest time dealing with mutas. Marines destroy them. Turrets are decent early, especially for taking your third before mutas are in large numbers. Adding a Thor in your main or expo is an incredible deterrent. Marines, however, are your bread and butter, and 6 marines hanging out in a base with a few turrets will shut down muta harass pretty well. Mutas are not OP. There's too much knee-jerking going on with Blizzard and it has led to a number of nerfs that in retrospect were probably unwarranted. No, six marines and a turret will not shut down anything. It's more like 30 marines stimming around, helplessly chasing a muta blob which in turn denies terran his needed aggression to stop the snowballing zerg. It's extremely uncommon to see a zerg who reaches 24+ mutas lose to a terran, unless he somehow flies his muta blob over the main army by mistake. It does look like Blizzard goes BW style and adds muta-counters to every race, which is a pretty damn good idea. I wrote 6 marines + turrets for dealing with the early muta harass. That is plenty. What the fuck is all this talk about people saying 24 to 30 mutas (or more!) being OP? If I dumped 3k min and 3k gas into just about any unit it'd be strong. Jesus - if you pressure the zerg and trade, it's really fucking hard for a zerg to mass up those mutas. You all make it sound like we drop a spire and go, "OK, time to make 30 mutas. Wheeeee!" The popular 3 base muta tech switch does get out nearly 20 in the first round... It balloons to thirty pretty fast off 6 gas, and spines are what prevents the pressure from succeeding as much as it should. Its more of a map control issue, its very difficult for protoss to scout out zerg Hatchery locations and engage them without that expeditionary force being intercepted by the entire flock.
3 Base with mutas with 20 on the first round. You can destroy them way before then, and no i'm not saying HEY you should just kill them if they're going mutas, i'm saying, Hey they sure as hell are being greedy stacking 2k/2K + minerals and expanding to 3 bases all while taking 6 gases, and you somehow can't push out and do damage to them?
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On November 11 2011 03:05 Awatsu wrote:
All this X can beat mutas in a straight fight is bullshit, you don't get to hit the mutalistk unless a) the zerg mess up b) you blink under them and get 1 round of shots.
Mutas are probably op because they force you to stay at your base, they are a 3.75 flying unit... and in case some ppl have forgot, they shoot air and ground, and they are far more useful on a proper engagement than lets say vikings or phoenix
"What the fuck is all this talk about people saying 24 to 30 mutas (or more!) being OP? If I dumped 3k min and 3k gas into just about any unit it'd be strong."
Do you realize you can commit to mass mutas because you have spinecrawlers to defend, something that P and T doesn't ?
I would love to get the equivalent of your 3k 3k on banshees, but guess what ,that's not viable.
Mutas are horrible on direct engagments, If you believe otherwise then go ahead hop in a unit tester and try it. They get utterly raped by their counters. You're view of hey you can commit to mass mutas because of mass spinecrawlers, just seems like a WELL I CAN't GET THROUGH MASS SPINES, point of view, because clearly the meta game hasn't evolved to you know drops these days, or warp in, or doing anything besides attacking pre the 15 minute mark due to gas constraints.
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On November 11 2011 03:10 willyallthewei wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 03:01 Roxy wrote:On November 11 2011 02:56 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 02:45 Roxy wrote:On November 11 2011 02:39 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 02:35 Roxy wrote:On November 11 2011 02:32 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 02:05 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 01:55 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 01:53 willyallthewei wrote:
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Strongly disagree with this statement.
Inject larva spread creep, you act like that stuff is rocket science. A decent zerg will do all these things and control the mutas fine. It is harder then toss macro and using mutas with all that is harder then standard zerg game. So Zerg that wins with mutas is higher skilled player, not lower skilled. Disagree completely. Any decent zerg player will do well enough with muta control to deal damage to toss and prevent them from leaving the base. Macroing during that time is not hard at all because you have no fear of recourse, how is that harder than standard zerg play where an extra round of drones can kill you? Then we agree to disagree. And it is way easier to defend because mutas are really weak direct combatants. You need to babysit them a lot for them to be useful. You cannot inject larva and spread creep while doing that. Do you know what DRG is most known for? Best muta control and one of the best inject larva. No, not every zerg is good with that as you say or they would all be DRG. The ones you meet that kill you with mutas are just better then you. Plain an simple. Instead of whining here accept that and start working on your mechanics and game. Now I understand why toss players lose so much and complain if mutas are difficult to them. Spreading units against fungals and EMP must be impossible then How are mutas weak combatants? i'm pretty sure large numbers of mutas tear apart comparable army values of stalkers or pheonix protoss units are bad vs mutas Terran units are better, but less mobile. In either case, if protoss or terran move out of thei rbase to attack the zerg. the zerg can wreck their mineral line and still have the mutas back at base to join in the big engagement. You being sure means nothing when you can watch any pro game and see mutas all die once they are forced to engage the toss army. Same number of stalkers kill same number of mutas although mutas cost more. Add a few sentry to the mix and mutas are useless. And to get that huge number of mutas (30+) you need to successfuly harass. You cannot engage directly before that number of you lose badly even against much weaker forces. Toss just needs to defend well and not let mutas do much damage. as a matter of fact, i was just watching naniwa's stream where he got absolutely destroyed by mutalisks. he could not take a third. was on metalopolis every time he went to expand to third, mutas would poke into main. hed send stalkers to main. then ling/roach would come deny third. This happened about 8 times before naniwa decided to just all-in off 2 bases (at like the 16 minute mark) with about 95 supply. He opened with a standard FFE. Zerg did no early pressure. Nani had early blink and mostly stalkers in his army. Good idea about the sentries. i forgot that mutas cant target sentries. Having to split his army into 2 or 3 groups in order to defend harass left each group very vulnerable as it is known that protoss units are only strong in a ball and for cost can not hold their own vs ling/roach I also watched that game. Naniwa looked outplayed in that game. He looked like he gave up half way through. He also had people making fun of him in the background. Basing anything on one game means shit. But if you are so keen on doing that go watch Hero vs Crazymoving games from GSL ro48 Code A. Don't have a GSL subscription this season. Care to summarize? I'm guessing that Hero just got lucky and opened with 6gate blink stalker pressure. If so, that is not balance, that is getting lucky with a build order win. There is no way that he would have been able to scout enough from the zerg to decide to open blink stalkers. Hero got rocked by a zerg who spammed mutas and lings all game and made a couple major mistakes with his muta control that would've lost him every single muta in a TvZ but unfortunately because of how much stalkers suck vs. light air, was able to retain his muta flock despite less than inspiring control. The commentators however did a really good job of talking up Crazy moving, when they guy is mediocre and just uses an abusive strat. Sorry, calling it the way i see it.
yeah and crazymoving dodging every but 1 or 2storms out of the ~20storms Hero casted as well as you can (which is take the initial 20dmg and nothing more) was just bad play, while Heros moveouts with blink stalker templar in which he always lost every single templar, were greast moves, weren't they?
At some points of the game he had stray templar sitting around getting killed by zerglings.
Also his stargate opening killed exactly 2queens, after the the 10min mark, while his chargeattack was a complete fail and he had to abbandon the idea right after losing his first zealot push.
CM basically had a 10-20drone 1base and a ground army advantage when he transitioned into mutalisks...
Yes, maybe Tal'darim Altar should fall out of the GSL mappool, if mutas prove to be playable over the whole season on all maps in ZvP, as it is well known that Zerg has an advantage over Terran on this map and mutalisks might give Zerg the same advantage over protoss on it, even though it was a slightly protossfavored map until now.
The huge airspace around the bases makes chasing air units just impossible.
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On November 11 2011 03:04 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 01:15 Thrombozyt wrote:On November 11 2011 00:54 Big J wrote:On November 11 2011 00:16 Thrombozyt wrote:On November 10 2011 23:30 Big J wrote:
Thors are great vs mutalisks. That's why good zergs don't even open mutalisks if they scout mech. Every good Terran has Mutatimings figuered out and will have 1thor and 2turrets/mineraline ready when the first 8mutalisks arrive. Mutalisks are then completly denied from harassing bases, as they can't combat stray thors+turrets when SCVs are near. Once Thor numbers get up in double digits with hellion support, it is lights out for every zerg unit that is not a broodlord, but you can't have them because you went mutalisks all game long. Now good luck basetrading muta/ling vs Thor/hellion. Hellions+PF will just roflstomp the zerglings, while a turretwall +maybe 1-2thors (minerals are no problem in mech play) are gonna keep it safe from the mutalisks.
And btw: show me that player that can handle a 11sight range air unit that is not gonna get shot by 10range thors, while harassing. (hint: It's like saying that a 4range phoenix counters infinite amounts of 3range mutalisks...)
But if you really think that mutalisks are so great vs Thors, please tell me why there are so many Code S Terrans who go Mech vs Zerg from time to time, and why a lot of Code S zergs don't even open mutalisks against Mech, but instead go roach and fast Hive instead, even though you claim that mutaliskplay is a freewin vs Mech.
Magicbox is a thing you use if you want to pick up stray thors that are badly timed in mech builds (single thor defense vs 10+ mutalisks, instead of standard double thor against 7-8 mutalisks) or that are used as a little bonus defense in biomech pushes, to give the marines more room to attack.
And about exponential scaling... You wanna know which unit is the best scaling unit in the game costwise? The stim/combatshield Marine. It scales FAR better than the mutalisk.
And yes, you are supposed to spread your marines on 3bases if you are encountering mutaplay. Every good Terran in the world is doing it when he goes biomech in TvZ, just like every good Zerg has to build spines and spread lings and infestors all over his bases against drops in mutaless play. If you don't want to multitask like that, you're free to play other styles like Thor/hellion or Bio, which both deny mutaliskplay completly, but therefore open other weaknesses (roach & early Hiveplay; infestor banling play). You don't even have to play terran if it isn't fun for you, if you can't handle mutalisks. Others do, and they show every TvZ they play that Terran can keep its 50+% winrate against every zergstyle out there.
Yes, maybe it's harder to defend vs mutalisks as to play them, but that's also true for TONS of aggressive TvZ strategies.
At the standard muta timing, having two thors in a bio mech build (1 per mineral line) is absurd, as it means you can be overrun due to a lack of siege tanks. Yes, if I am sure he goes muta, I can deny the initial harass, though that harass usually hits when you have to move out to attack his 3rd. You move out, either you push is completely denied, because you have no siege tanks as you made thors to defend at home, or mutas can deal damage and still be back in time for defense. Btw: 2 turrets per mineral line might be OK for the initial harass not to lose SCVs, but your structures and add-ons are still vulnerable, generating a serious delay in production. And honestly I would say that you don't see mutas vs mech, because you need gas for roaches and infestors that are better. Not because mutas are that bad. If you force many siege tanks with roaches and then go for a switch, mutas are a good choice, because they can deal with the thors if thors are the only anti air. Though usually mech play incorporates creeping around the map with turret coverage and thors + turrets are a tough. As an example look at July vs clide. Clide went bio mech and he went NUTS on his turrets, placing them in groups of 2-3 everywhere with marine batches everywhere. It just took one unlucky moment, where Clide decided to drop those marines and he got torn by less than 20 mutas, who cleaned up the medivac, then the 3 turrets and went to town on everything dealing a lot of damage. And had you seen the base before the attack you'd think that clide had gone too far with his muta defense. the 2thors are meant if you go mech. If you go biomech you don't need them and you don't want them, of course. Sadly, I haven't watched the game, only listened to the stream so I can't comment too much on that, but yeah, I know that mutas are a unit that is great to abuse weaknesses, but isn't it the same idea with drops? Or even more cruel: dropping while pushing out or double dropping. It's all the same concepts: Spreading out when you don't have to fight, gathering when you do have to fight. Also loading up units that are an essential part of your defense seems like a risk that Clide knew off, but still he did it. Also, your structures are rather tough, whilst easily defendible with the same marines that you want to have around for mineral defense as well. Losing an addon hurts, but if that's all his mutalisks are able to do and you're sitting on 3base, I can assure you that the zerg is shitting his pants at least as much as you do, because like every harass unit, mutas are supposed to do damage to a player. Well, after he had 8 marines and a medivac sandwiched by FIVE turrets and July didn't show his mutas for minutes, it's just logical to pick up and try to move out. The bad luck was that July was just outside of vision. For the general muta defense, why don't you need thors? Because you have marines? At the 11 minute mark you usually sit on 2 base and are about to push out or are just pushing. Often you have no medivacs, so every stim hurts. You are NOT sitting on 3 base most maps, because you can hardly defend 2 and with add-on sniping, espcially with reactors around, you deal TONS of damage due to lost production time. Sitting on two base not able to leave because you cannot have enough static defense to deter a sack of your base by mutas is one of the most frustrating things and the more bases you have the worse the situation. Usually even bio mech is forced into thos, because mutas scale so well. Yes, marine in a straight up fight scale better, but marines can only defend one area, while mutas can threaten all areas. Thus mutas stack way better, because as the game progresses, you have to spread out more. At the 11min mark you should already be on your way back home, because mutas pop 10:00-10:30 and if you don't kill him with your push before mutas arrive or at least take all zerg units (especially mutalisks/infestors) with your marines to their grave, then you don't have enough marines to fly out your 3rd orbital, which should be finishing at home. If you lose that first tank/marine force, it is basically gg in high level play if zerg went either infestors or mutalisks and he keeps most of them. The mutalisk scenario will then look like: he contains you on 2bases until you have enough marines to defend 3 bases, which takes an awful amount of time (you're missing something like 20marines), while he is droning further ahead, because you can't threaten him. When you finally have enough to take a third it is just too late (13-14mins, zerg has 4bases/5-6hatcheries, 6gas) and your only reasonable choices are to either wait for max, or push out immidiatly once you have a force that can combat the mutalisk numbers. Either way, both of those pushes only have something like 20% successrate, as you're really far behind. The infestor scenario will then look like: He goes 3base-4base fast Hive, either broodlord or Ultralisk while you're struggling to muster up a reasonable tankcount to combat Infestors. It's a little easier to come back from this, because a lot of zergs that go Infestors have trouble defending drops, but in highlevel play, the zerg will just park 1-2infestors per base, while you're completly unable to directly push him, because the only unit that you can produce besides tanks are marines, which suck in this situation as long as you don't have a really strong tankbackbone. The same thing is true the other way round as well. If a zerg loses too many units (especially mutalisks or infestors), terrans can just pressure in and try to kill him with successive pushing (SCfou style), or just taking his bases earlier, while zerg has to restart muta/infestor production by zero.
It is beyond me, how you can kill his mutas with a push that is timed before mutas.. but lets say everything went according to terrans plan and his push killed the Zerg 3rd along with many units before it got cleaned up. At home you have like 2 tanks, 12-15 marines, and a 3rd CC that you float to its destination. There is no way that you can cover all that area. You have no medivac tech (that's on the way), not enough marines to really cover anything and now you are pinned to your base as his muta flock grows. And that's the good scenario. Terran is under the gun and has to push out to finish Zerg and accept damage that will automatically justify the muta investment. All it takes is a good engagement by Zerg and suddenly you slipped from "I did tons of dmg and should be ahead" to "I could as well gg".
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On November 11 2011 03:21 Ace.Xile wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 02:13 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 02:08 Mjolnir wrote:On November 11 2011 00:49 EmilA wrote:On November 10 2011 14:31 Mjolnir wrote:On November 10 2011 14:13 ZorBa.G wrote:
Why not just do something with the stalker? Give it some kind of extra attack for air only.
As a Terran, there is nothing more annoying then well controlled mutas, they just circle your base all day whilst the zerg expos and drones up like a mad man!
Everyone complains about hellions before the patch, mutas are no freaking different IMO... It's practically a flying fkn Hellion! Not only can it shoot ground, but air also!
If Blizzard thinks Mutas are OP, I 100% agree!
Playing as Terran, I am continously trying to defend my base and get my 3rd up. Whenever I try to leave my base... I can't because I either end up as me losing or it's a base trade at best. Then, once you do actually get to leave your base, your next worry is banelings! So you spend all this work to actually get the point where you can somewhat safely leave your base and then you need to worry about freaking banes!
Either nerf the muta, or give us other race a better unit to counter it. I think Blizzard giving us Terrans the battlehellion and Warhound is awesome and I cannot wait to start making butter out of the zerg race! Terran has the easiest time dealing with mutas. Marines destroy them. Turrets are decent early, especially for taking your third before mutas are in large numbers. Adding a Thor in your main or expo is an incredible deterrent. Marines, however, are your bread and butter, and 6 marines hanging out in a base with a few turrets will shut down muta harass pretty well. Mutas are not OP. There's too much knee-jerking going on with Blizzard and it has led to a number of nerfs that in retrospect were probably unwarranted. No, six marines and a turret will not shut down anything. It's more like 30 marines stimming around, helplessly chasing a muta blob which in turn denies terran his needed aggression to stop the snowballing zerg. It's extremely uncommon to see a zerg who reaches 24+ mutas lose to a terran, unless he somehow flies his muta blob over the main army by mistake. It does look like Blizzard goes BW style and adds muta-counters to every race, which is a pretty damn good idea. I wrote 6 marines + turrets for dealing with the early muta harass. That is plenty. What the fuck is all this talk about people saying 24 to 30 mutas (or more!) being OP? If I dumped 3k min and 3k gas into just about any unit it'd be strong. Jesus - if you pressure the zerg and trade, it's really fucking hard for a zerg to mass up those mutas. You all make it sound like we drop a spire and go, "OK, time to make 30 mutas. Wheeeee!" The popular 3 base muta tech switch does get out nearly 20 in the first round... It balloons to thirty pretty fast off 6 gas, and spines are what prevents the pressure from succeeding as much as it should. Its more of a map control issue, its very difficult for protoss to scout out zerg Hatchery locations and engage them without that expeditionary force being intercepted by the entire flock. 3 Base with mutas with 20 on the first round. You can destroy them way before then, and no i'm not saying HEY you should just kill them if they're going mutas, i'm saying, Hey they sure as hell are being greedy stacking 2k/2K + minerals and expanding to 3 bases all while taking 6 gases, and you somehow can't push out and do damage to them?
Usually the scenario is that toss goes FFE and zerg grabs a fast third. Zerg at this point will use roaches to try and hold a 2 base protoss timing such as 7 gate/6gate blink +2/etc, if they hold they are usually ahead, and the switch to mutas seals the deal.
Alternatively, if protoss does not commit to heavy pressure and goes for a faster third, the Zerg will go ahead and grab mutas. Even if Zerg does not plan to go muta, they will need the spire for corruptors laters anyway, and the lair is standard after 3 base for roach speed/infestor, etc.
its just extremely hard for toss to see this switch coming, I agree that if toss knew what was going on they would have a timing window to kill Zerg before the mutas pop but there simply are no clear signs. i think this is one of the main reasons that the oracle is getting the sneak peak ability or whatever it is. They can check if mutas are producing and then phase out the spire, lol.
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On November 11 2011 03:24 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 03:10 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 03:01 Roxy wrote:On November 11 2011 02:56 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 02:45 Roxy wrote:On November 11 2011 02:39 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 02:35 Roxy wrote:On November 11 2011 02:32 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 02:05 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 01:55 -Archangel- wrote:
[quote]
It is harder then toss macro and using mutas with all that is harder then standard zerg game. So Zerg that wins with mutas is higher skilled player, not lower skilled. Disagree completely. Any decent zerg player will do well enough with muta control to deal damage to toss and prevent them from leaving the base. Macroing during that time is not hard at all because you have no fear of recourse, how is that harder than standard zerg play where an extra round of drones can kill you? Then we agree to disagree. And it is way easier to defend because mutas are really weak direct combatants. You need to babysit them a lot for them to be useful. You cannot inject larva and spread creep while doing that. Do you know what DRG is most known for? Best muta control and one of the best inject larva. No, not every zerg is good with that as you say or they would all be DRG. The ones you meet that kill you with mutas are just better then you. Plain an simple. Instead of whining here accept that and start working on your mechanics and game. Now I understand why toss players lose so much and complain if mutas are difficult to them. Spreading units against fungals and EMP must be impossible then How are mutas weak combatants? i'm pretty sure large numbers of mutas tear apart comparable army values of stalkers or pheonix protoss units are bad vs mutas Terran units are better, but less mobile. In either case, if protoss or terran move out of thei rbase to attack the zerg. the zerg can wreck their mineral line and still have the mutas back at base to join in the big engagement. You being sure means nothing when you can watch any pro game and see mutas all die once they are forced to engage the toss army. Same number of stalkers kill same number of mutas although mutas cost more. Add a few sentry to the mix and mutas are useless. And to get that huge number of mutas (30+) you need to successfuly harass. You cannot engage directly before that number of you lose badly even against much weaker forces. Toss just needs to defend well and not let mutas do much damage. as a matter of fact, i was just watching naniwa's stream where he got absolutely destroyed by mutalisks. he could not take a third. was on metalopolis every time he went to expand to third, mutas would poke into main. hed send stalkers to main. then ling/roach would come deny third. This happened about 8 times before naniwa decided to just all-in off 2 bases (at like the 16 minute mark) with about 95 supply. He opened with a standard FFE. Zerg did no early pressure. Nani had early blink and mostly stalkers in his army. Good idea about the sentries. i forgot that mutas cant target sentries. Having to split his army into 2 or 3 groups in order to defend harass left each group very vulnerable as it is known that protoss units are only strong in a ball and for cost can not hold their own vs ling/roach I also watched that game. Naniwa looked outplayed in that game. He looked like he gave up half way through. He also had people making fun of him in the background. Basing anything on one game means shit. But if you are so keen on doing that go watch Hero vs Crazymoving games from GSL ro48 Code A. Don't have a GSL subscription this season. Care to summarize? I'm guessing that Hero just got lucky and opened with 6gate blink stalker pressure. If so, that is not balance, that is getting lucky with a build order win. There is no way that he would have been able to scout enough from the zerg to decide to open blink stalkers. Hero got rocked by a zerg who spammed mutas and lings all game and made a couple major mistakes with his muta control that would've lost him every single muta in a TvZ but unfortunately because of how much stalkers suck vs. light air, was able to retain his muta flock despite less than inspiring control. The commentators however did a really good job of talking up Crazy moving, when they guy is mediocre and just uses an abusive strat. Sorry, calling it the way i see it. yeah and crazymoving dodging every but 1 or 2storms out of the ~20storms Hero casted as well as you can (which is take the initial 20dmg and nothing more) was just bad play, while Heros moveouts with blink stalker templar in which he always lost every single templar, were greast moves, weren't they? At some points of the game he had stray templar sitting around getting killed by zerglings. Also his stargate opening killed exactly 2queens, after the the 10min mark, while his chargeattack was a complete fail and he had to abbandon the idea right after losing his first zealot push. CM basically had a 10-20drone 1base and a ground army advantage when he transitioned into mutalisks... Yes, maybe Tal'darim Altar should fall out of the GSL mappool, if mutas prove to be playable over the whole season on all maps in ZvP, as it is well known that Zerg has an advantage over Terran on this map and mutalisks might give Zerg the same advantage over protoss on it, even though it was a slightly protossfavored map until now. The huge airspace around the bases makes chasing air units just impossible.
Both players made some ugly mistakes, but crazymoving getting his mutas trapped twice there and having them fly over multiple stalker groups is just something that flat out loses a zerg the game in the TvZ matchup.
My point is it illustrates the Protoss's inability to punish the Zerg as compared to Terran or Zerg.
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On November 11 2011 03:26 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 03:04 Big J wrote:On November 11 2011 01:15 Thrombozyt wrote:On November 11 2011 00:54 Big J wrote:On November 11 2011 00:16 Thrombozyt wrote:On November 10 2011 23:30 Big J wrote:
Thors are great vs mutalisks. That's why good zergs don't even open mutalisks if they scout mech. Every good Terran has Mutatimings figuered out and will have 1thor and 2turrets/mineraline ready when the first 8mutalisks arrive. Mutalisks are then completly denied from harassing bases, as they can't combat stray thors+turrets when SCVs are near. Once Thor numbers get up in double digits with hellion support, it is lights out for every zerg unit that is not a broodlord, but you can't have them because you went mutalisks all game long. Now good luck basetrading muta/ling vs Thor/hellion. Hellions+PF will just roflstomp the zerglings, while a turretwall +maybe 1-2thors (minerals are no problem in mech play) are gonna keep it safe from the mutalisks.
And btw: show me that player that can handle a 11sight range air unit that is not gonna get shot by 10range thors, while harassing. (hint: It's like saying that a 4range phoenix counters infinite amounts of 3range mutalisks...)
But if you really think that mutalisks are so great vs Thors, please tell me why there are so many Code S Terrans who go Mech vs Zerg from time to time, and why a lot of Code S zergs don't even open mutalisks against Mech, but instead go roach and fast Hive instead, even though you claim that mutaliskplay is a freewin vs Mech.
Magicbox is a thing you use if you want to pick up stray thors that are badly timed in mech builds (single thor defense vs 10+ mutalisks, instead of standard double thor against 7-8 mutalisks) or that are used as a little bonus defense in biomech pushes, to give the marines more room to attack.
And about exponential scaling... You wanna know which unit is the best scaling unit in the game costwise? The stim/combatshield Marine. It scales FAR better than the mutalisk.
And yes, you are supposed to spread your marines on 3bases if you are encountering mutaplay. Every good Terran in the world is doing it when he goes biomech in TvZ, just like every good Zerg has to build spines and spread lings and infestors all over his bases against drops in mutaless play. If you don't want to multitask like that, you're free to play other styles like Thor/hellion or Bio, which both deny mutaliskplay completly, but therefore open other weaknesses (roach & early Hiveplay; infestor banling play). You don't even have to play terran if it isn't fun for you, if you can't handle mutalisks. Others do, and they show every TvZ they play that Terran can keep its 50+% winrate against every zergstyle out there.
Yes, maybe it's harder to defend vs mutalisks as to play them, but that's also true for TONS of aggressive TvZ strategies.
At the standard muta timing, having two thors in a bio mech build (1 per mineral line) is absurd, as it means you can be overrun due to a lack of siege tanks. Yes, if I am sure he goes muta, I can deny the initial harass, though that harass usually hits when you have to move out to attack his 3rd. You move out, either you push is completely denied, because you have no siege tanks as you made thors to defend at home, or mutas can deal damage and still be back in time for defense. Btw: 2 turrets per mineral line might be OK for the initial harass not to lose SCVs, but your structures and add-ons are still vulnerable, generating a serious delay in production. And honestly I would say that you don't see mutas vs mech, because you need gas for roaches and infestors that are better. Not because mutas are that bad. If you force many siege tanks with roaches and then go for a switch, mutas are a good choice, because they can deal with the thors if thors are the only anti air. Though usually mech play incorporates creeping around the map with turret coverage and thors + turrets are a tough. As an example look at July vs clide. Clide went bio mech and he went NUTS on his turrets, placing them in groups of 2-3 everywhere with marine batches everywhere. It just took one unlucky moment, where Clide decided to drop those marines and he got torn by less than 20 mutas, who cleaned up the medivac, then the 3 turrets and went to town on everything dealing a lot of damage. And had you seen the base before the attack you'd think that clide had gone too far with his muta defense. the 2thors are meant if you go mech. If you go biomech you don't need them and you don't want them, of course. Sadly, I haven't watched the game, only listened to the stream so I can't comment too much on that, but yeah, I know that mutas are a unit that is great to abuse weaknesses, but isn't it the same idea with drops? Or even more cruel: dropping while pushing out or double dropping. It's all the same concepts: Spreading out when you don't have to fight, gathering when you do have to fight. Also loading up units that are an essential part of your defense seems like a risk that Clide knew off, but still he did it. Also, your structures are rather tough, whilst easily defendible with the same marines that you want to have around for mineral defense as well. Losing an addon hurts, but if that's all his mutalisks are able to do and you're sitting on 3base, I can assure you that the zerg is shitting his pants at least as much as you do, because like every harass unit, mutas are supposed to do damage to a player. Well, after he had 8 marines and a medivac sandwiched by FIVE turrets and July didn't show his mutas for minutes, it's just logical to pick up and try to move out. The bad luck was that July was just outside of vision. For the general muta defense, why don't you need thors? Because you have marines? At the 11 minute mark you usually sit on 2 base and are about to push out or are just pushing. Often you have no medivacs, so every stim hurts. You are NOT sitting on 3 base most maps, because you can hardly defend 2 and with add-on sniping, espcially with reactors around, you deal TONS of damage due to lost production time. Sitting on two base not able to leave because you cannot have enough static defense to deter a sack of your base by mutas is one of the most frustrating things and the more bases you have the worse the situation. Usually even bio mech is forced into thos, because mutas scale so well. Yes, marine in a straight up fight scale better, but marines can only defend one area, while mutas can threaten all areas. Thus mutas stack way better, because as the game progresses, you have to spread out more. At the 11min mark you should already be on your way back home, because mutas pop 10:00-10:30 and if you don't kill him with your push before mutas arrive or at least take all zerg units (especially mutalisks/infestors) with your marines to their grave, then you don't have enough marines to fly out your 3rd orbital, which should be finishing at home. If you lose that first tank/marine force, it is basically gg in high level play if zerg went either infestors or mutalisks and he keeps most of them. The mutalisk scenario will then look like: he contains you on 2bases until you have enough marines to defend 3 bases, which takes an awful amount of time (you're missing something like 20marines), while he is droning further ahead, because you can't threaten him. When you finally have enough to take a third it is just too late (13-14mins, zerg has 4bases/5-6hatcheries, 6gas) and your only reasonable choices are to either wait for max, or push out immidiatly once you have a force that can combat the mutalisk numbers. Either way, both of those pushes only have something like 20% successrate, as you're really far behind. The infestor scenario will then look like: He goes 3base-4base fast Hive, either broodlord or Ultralisk while you're struggling to muster up a reasonable tankcount to combat Infestors. It's a little easier to come back from this, because a lot of zergs that go Infestors have trouble defending drops, but in highlevel play, the zerg will just park 1-2infestors per base, while you're completly unable to directly push him, because the only unit that you can produce besides tanks are marines, which suck in this situation as long as you don't have a really strong tankbackbone. The same thing is true the other way round as well. If a zerg loses too many units (especially mutalisks or infestors), terrans can just pressure in and try to kill him with successive pushing (SCfou style), or just taking his bases earlier, while zerg has to restart muta/infestor production by zero. It is beyond me, how you can kill his mutas with a push that is timed before mutas.. but lets say everything went according to terrans plan and his push killed the Zerg 3rd along with many units before it got cleaned up. At home you have like 2 tanks, 12-15 marines, and a 3rd CC that you float to its destination. There is no way that you can cover all that area. You have no medivac tech (that's on the way), not enough marines to really cover anything and now you are pinned to your base as his muta flock grows. And that's the good scenario. Terran is under the gun and has to push out to finish Zerg and accept damage that will automatically justify the muta investment. All it takes is a good engagement by Zerg and suddenly you slipped from "I did tons of dmg and should be ahead" to "I could as well gg".
Or you could look at it how it should be which is, i pushed out and killed his 3rd and did a ridiculous amount damage to a zerg because of the mechanics of the race and lack of larva, and because i chose to do this build i am stuck with the disadvantages that comes with it. It seems at this point you're just complaining that the attack you're suggesting, even though you just clearly took a huge risk by killing his third, has drawbacks (that it very well should have because of the nature of the attack). Like the game doesn't work like, if you do some damage you auto win, more often than not for you to do any attack or any expand there is a risk that your opponent can capitalize on. If i 6 pool i get lings out early but unless i do some pretty big damage, i'm not only at a huge eco disadvantage 9/10 stealthed units or air units will just outright win the game. You moved out early with a small force and were able to kill a third which is great. Because of that you are wildly out of position for the mutas and won't have as many units when they finally hit. It's like you're angry that this game has consequences to decisions you make.
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On November 11 2011 03:30 willyallthewei wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 03:24 Big J wrote:On November 11 2011 03:10 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 03:01 Roxy wrote:On November 11 2011 02:56 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 02:45 Roxy wrote:On November 11 2011 02:39 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 02:35 Roxy wrote:On November 11 2011 02:32 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 02:05 willyallthewei wrote:
[quote]
Disagree completely. Any decent zerg player will do well enough with muta control to deal damage to toss and prevent them from leaving the base. Macroing during that time is not hard at all because you have no fear of recourse, how is that harder than standard zerg play where an extra round of drones can kill you?
Then we agree to disagree. And it is way easier to defend because mutas are really weak direct combatants. You need to babysit them a lot for them to be useful. You cannot inject larva and spread creep while doing that. Do you know what DRG is most known for? Best muta control and one of the best inject larva. No, not every zerg is good with that as you say or they would all be DRG. The ones you meet that kill you with mutas are just better then you. Plain an simple. Instead of whining here accept that and start working on your mechanics and game. Now I understand why toss players lose so much and complain if mutas are difficult to them. Spreading units against fungals and EMP must be impossible then How are mutas weak combatants? i'm pretty sure large numbers of mutas tear apart comparable army values of stalkers or pheonix protoss units are bad vs mutas Terran units are better, but less mobile. In either case, if protoss or terran move out of thei rbase to attack the zerg. the zerg can wreck their mineral line and still have the mutas back at base to join in the big engagement. You being sure means nothing when you can watch any pro game and see mutas all die once they are forced to engage the toss army. Same number of stalkers kill same number of mutas although mutas cost more. Add a few sentry to the mix and mutas are useless. And to get that huge number of mutas (30+) you need to successfuly harass. You cannot engage directly before that number of you lose badly even against much weaker forces. Toss just needs to defend well and not let mutas do much damage. as a matter of fact, i was just watching naniwa's stream where he got absolutely destroyed by mutalisks. he could not take a third. was on metalopolis every time he went to expand to third, mutas would poke into main. hed send stalkers to main. then ling/roach would come deny third. This happened about 8 times before naniwa decided to just all-in off 2 bases (at like the 16 minute mark) with about 95 supply. He opened with a standard FFE. Zerg did no early pressure. Nani had early blink and mostly stalkers in his army. Good idea about the sentries. i forgot that mutas cant target sentries. Having to split his army into 2 or 3 groups in order to defend harass left each group very vulnerable as it is known that protoss units are only strong in a ball and for cost can not hold their own vs ling/roach I also watched that game. Naniwa looked outplayed in that game. He looked like he gave up half way through. He also had people making fun of him in the background. Basing anything on one game means shit. But if you are so keen on doing that go watch Hero vs Crazymoving games from GSL ro48 Code A. Don't have a GSL subscription this season. Care to summarize? I'm guessing that Hero just got lucky and opened with 6gate blink stalker pressure. If so, that is not balance, that is getting lucky with a build order win. There is no way that he would have been able to scout enough from the zerg to decide to open blink stalkers. Hero got rocked by a zerg who spammed mutas and lings all game and made a couple major mistakes with his muta control that would've lost him every single muta in a TvZ but unfortunately because of how much stalkers suck vs. light air, was able to retain his muta flock despite less than inspiring control. The commentators however did a really good job of talking up Crazy moving, when they guy is mediocre and just uses an abusive strat. Sorry, calling it the way i see it. yeah and crazymoving dodging every but 1 or 2storms out of the ~20storms Hero casted as well as you can (which is take the initial 20dmg and nothing more) was just bad play, while Heros moveouts with blink stalker templar in which he always lost every single templar, were greast moves, weren't they? At some points of the game he had stray templar sitting around getting killed by zerglings. Also his stargate opening killed exactly 2queens, after the the 10min mark, while his chargeattack was a complete fail and he had to abbandon the idea right after losing his first zealot push. CM basically had a 10-20drone 1base and a ground army advantage when he transitioned into mutalisks... Yes, maybe Tal'darim Altar should fall out of the GSL mappool, if mutas prove to be playable over the whole season on all maps in ZvP, as it is well known that Zerg has an advantage over Terran on this map and mutalisks might give Zerg the same advantage over protoss on it, even though it was a slightly protossfavored map until now. The huge airspace around the bases makes chasing air units just impossible. Both players made some ugly mistakes, but crazymoving getting his mutas trapped twice there and having them fly over multiple stalker groups is just something that flat out loses a zerg the game in the TvZ matchup. My point is it illustrates the Protoss's inability to punish the Zerg as compared to Terran or Zerg.
he blinked under them... Good luck doing that with marines...
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On November 11 2011 03:27 willyallthewei wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 03:21 Ace.Xile wrote:On November 11 2011 02:13 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 02:08 Mjolnir wrote:On November 11 2011 00:49 EmilA wrote:On November 10 2011 14:31 Mjolnir wrote:On November 10 2011 14:13 ZorBa.G wrote:
Why not just do something with the stalker? Give it some kind of extra attack for air only.
As a Terran, there is nothing more annoying then well controlled mutas, they just circle your base all day whilst the zerg expos and drones up like a mad man!
Everyone complains about hellions before the patch, mutas are no freaking different IMO... It's practically a flying fkn Hellion! Not only can it shoot ground, but air also!
If Blizzard thinks Mutas are OP, I 100% agree!
Playing as Terran, I am continously trying to defend my base and get my 3rd up. Whenever I try to leave my base... I can't because I either end up as me losing or it's a base trade at best. Then, once you do actually get to leave your base, your next worry is banelings! So you spend all this work to actually get the point where you can somewhat safely leave your base and then you need to worry about freaking banes!
Either nerf the muta, or give us other race a better unit to counter it. I think Blizzard giving us Terrans the battlehellion and Warhound is awesome and I cannot wait to start making butter out of the zerg race! Terran has the easiest time dealing with mutas. Marines destroy them. Turrets are decent early, especially for taking your third before mutas are in large numbers. Adding a Thor in your main or expo is an incredible deterrent. Marines, however, are your bread and butter, and 6 marines hanging out in a base with a few turrets will shut down muta harass pretty well. Mutas are not OP. There's too much knee-jerking going on with Blizzard and it has led to a number of nerfs that in retrospect were probably unwarranted. No, six marines and a turret will not shut down anything. It's more like 30 marines stimming around, helplessly chasing a muta blob which in turn denies terran his needed aggression to stop the snowballing zerg. It's extremely uncommon to see a zerg who reaches 24+ mutas lose to a terran, unless he somehow flies his muta blob over the main army by mistake. It does look like Blizzard goes BW style and adds muta-counters to every race, which is a pretty damn good idea. I wrote 6 marines + turrets for dealing with the early muta harass. That is plenty. What the fuck is all this talk about people saying 24 to 30 mutas (or more!) being OP? If I dumped 3k min and 3k gas into just about any unit it'd be strong. Jesus - if you pressure the zerg and trade, it's really fucking hard for a zerg to mass up those mutas. You all make it sound like we drop a spire and go, "OK, time to make 30 mutas. Wheeeee!" The popular 3 base muta tech switch does get out nearly 20 in the first round... It balloons to thirty pretty fast off 6 gas, and spines are what prevents the pressure from succeeding as much as it should. Its more of a map control issue, its very difficult for protoss to scout out zerg Hatchery locations and engage them without that expeditionary force being intercepted by the entire flock. 3 Base with mutas with 20 on the first round. You can destroy them way before then, and no i'm not saying HEY you should just kill them if they're going mutas, i'm saying, Hey they sure as hell are being greedy stacking 2k/2K + minerals and expanding to 3 bases all while taking 6 gases, and you somehow can't push out and do damage to them? Usually the scenario is that toss goes FFE and zerg grabs a fast third. Zerg at this point will use roaches to try and hold a 2 base protoss timing such as 7 gate/6gate blink +2/etc, if they hold they are usually ahead, and the switch to mutas seals the deal. Alternatively, if protoss does not commit to heavy pressure and goes for a faster third, the Zerg will go ahead and grab mutas. Even if Zerg does not plan to go muta, they will need the spire for corruptors laters anyway, and the lair is standard after 3 base for roach speed/infestor, etc. its just extremely hard for toss to see this switch coming, I agree that if toss knew what was going on they would have a timing window to kill Zerg before the mutas pop but there simply are no clear signs. i think this is one of the main reasons that the oracle is getting the sneak peak ability or whatever it is. They can check if mutas are producing and then phase out the spire, lol.
I find it hard to believe the excuse is, well protoss doesn't know what's going on, assuming they aren't going for some sort of heavy pressure build they should usually get a robo up pretty quickly by my understanding, and observers are pretty good at looking around. And you even admitted it yourself, if the protoss isn't going to go for a 2 base timing he's going to try and expand, and the logical choice would be to realize that either the zerg is going to go for some mutas or some huge push as you're expanding, either way all of this can be dealt with with proper scouting.
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On November 11 2011 03:34 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 03:30 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 03:24 Big J wrote:On November 11 2011 03:10 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 03:01 Roxy wrote:On November 11 2011 02:56 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 02:45 Roxy wrote:On November 11 2011 02:39 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 02:35 Roxy wrote:On November 11 2011 02:32 -Archangel- wrote:[quote] Then we agree to disagree. And it is way easier to defend because mutas are really weak direct combatants. You need to babysit them a lot for them to be useful. You cannot inject larva and spread creep while doing that. Do you know what DRG is most known for? Best muta control and one of the best inject larva. No, not every zerg is good with that as you say or they would all be DRG. The ones you meet that kill you with mutas are just better then you. Plain an simple. Instead of whining here accept that and start working on your mechanics and game. Now I understand why toss players lose so much and complain if mutas are difficult to them. Spreading units against fungals and EMP must be impossible then How are mutas weak combatants? i'm pretty sure large numbers of mutas tear apart comparable army values of stalkers or pheonix protoss units are bad vs mutas Terran units are better, but less mobile. In either case, if protoss or terran move out of thei rbase to attack the zerg. the zerg can wreck their mineral line and still have the mutas back at base to join in the big engagement. You being sure means nothing when you can watch any pro game and see mutas all die once they are forced to engage the toss army. Same number of stalkers kill same number of mutas although mutas cost more. Add a few sentry to the mix and mutas are useless. And to get that huge number of mutas (30+) you need to successfuly harass. You cannot engage directly before that number of you lose badly even against much weaker forces. Toss just needs to defend well and not let mutas do much damage. as a matter of fact, i was just watching naniwa's stream where he got absolutely destroyed by mutalisks. he could not take a third. was on metalopolis every time he went to expand to third, mutas would poke into main. hed send stalkers to main. then ling/roach would come deny third. This happened about 8 times before naniwa decided to just all-in off 2 bases (at like the 16 minute mark) with about 95 supply. He opened with a standard FFE. Zerg did no early pressure. Nani had early blink and mostly stalkers in his army. Good idea about the sentries. i forgot that mutas cant target sentries. Having to split his army into 2 or 3 groups in order to defend harass left each group very vulnerable as it is known that protoss units are only strong in a ball and for cost can not hold their own vs ling/roach I also watched that game. Naniwa looked outplayed in that game. He looked like he gave up half way through. He also had people making fun of him in the background. Basing anything on one game means shit. But if you are so keen on doing that go watch Hero vs Crazymoving games from GSL ro48 Code A. Don't have a GSL subscription this season. Care to summarize? I'm guessing that Hero just got lucky and opened with 6gate blink stalker pressure. If so, that is not balance, that is getting lucky with a build order win. There is no way that he would have been able to scout enough from the zerg to decide to open blink stalkers. Hero got rocked by a zerg who spammed mutas and lings all game and made a couple major mistakes with his muta control that would've lost him every single muta in a TvZ but unfortunately because of how much stalkers suck vs. light air, was able to retain his muta flock despite less than inspiring control. The commentators however did a really good job of talking up Crazy moving, when they guy is mediocre and just uses an abusive strat. Sorry, calling it the way i see it. yeah and crazymoving dodging every but 1 or 2storms out of the ~20storms Hero casted as well as you can (which is take the initial 20dmg and nothing more) was just bad play, while Heros moveouts with blink stalker templar in which he always lost every single templar, were greast moves, weren't they? At some points of the game he had stray templar sitting around getting killed by zerglings. Also his stargate opening killed exactly 2queens, after the the 10min mark, while his chargeattack was a complete fail and he had to abbandon the idea right after losing his first zealot push. CM basically had a 10-20drone 1base and a ground army advantage when he transitioned into mutalisks... Yes, maybe Tal'darim Altar should fall out of the GSL mappool, if mutas prove to be playable over the whole season on all maps in ZvP, as it is well known that Zerg has an advantage over Terran on this map and mutalisks might give Zerg the same advantage over protoss on it, even though it was a slightly protossfavored map until now. The huge airspace around the bases makes chasing air units just impossible. Both players made some ugly mistakes, but crazymoving getting his mutas trapped twice there and having them fly over multiple stalker groups is just something that flat out loses a zerg the game in the TvZ matchup. My point is it illustrates the Protoss's inability to punish the Zerg as compared to Terran or Zerg. he blinked under them... Good luck doing that with marines...
There were a few times where he stuck around after the stalkers arrived to pick off cannons/templar/probes, other times he got caught having to fly over a stalker ball and lost 4 or 5 mutas. You just cannot do this kind of stuff in ZvT, you lose 30 instead of 6 mutas on a bad mistake.
Marines run significantly faster than stalkers when stimmed and a lot more of them can be packed into a tight choke point.
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On November 11 2011 03:38 willyallthewei wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 03:34 Big J wrote:On November 11 2011 03:30 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 03:24 Big J wrote:On November 11 2011 03:10 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 03:01 Roxy wrote:On November 11 2011 02:56 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 02:45 Roxy wrote:On November 11 2011 02:39 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 02:35 Roxy wrote:
[quote]
How are mutas weak combatants?
i'm pretty sure large numbers of mutas tear apart comparable army values of stalkers or pheonix
protoss units are bad vs mutas
Terran units are better, but less mobile.
In either case, if protoss or terran move out of thei rbase to attack the zerg. the zerg can wreck their mineral line and still have the mutas back at base to join in the big engagement. You being sure means nothing when you can watch any pro game and see mutas all die once they are forced to engage the toss army. Same number of stalkers kill same number of mutas although mutas cost more. Add a few sentry to the mix and mutas are useless. And to get that huge number of mutas (30+) you need to successfuly harass. You cannot engage directly before that number of you lose badly even against much weaker forces. Toss just needs to defend well and not let mutas do much damage. as a matter of fact, i was just watching naniwa's stream where he got absolutely destroyed by mutalisks. he could not take a third. was on metalopolis every time he went to expand to third, mutas would poke into main. hed send stalkers to main. then ling/roach would come deny third. This happened about 8 times before naniwa decided to just all-in off 2 bases (at like the 16 minute mark) with about 95 supply. He opened with a standard FFE. Zerg did no early pressure. Nani had early blink and mostly stalkers in his army. Good idea about the sentries. i forgot that mutas cant target sentries. Having to split his army into 2 or 3 groups in order to defend harass left each group very vulnerable as it is known that protoss units are only strong in a ball and for cost can not hold their own vs ling/roach I also watched that game. Naniwa looked outplayed in that game. He looked like he gave up half way through. He also had people making fun of him in the background. Basing anything on one game means shit. But if you are so keen on doing that go watch Hero vs Crazymoving games from GSL ro48 Code A. Don't have a GSL subscription this season. Care to summarize? I'm guessing that Hero just got lucky and opened with 6gate blink stalker pressure. If so, that is not balance, that is getting lucky with a build order win. There is no way that he would have been able to scout enough from the zerg to decide to open blink stalkers. Hero got rocked by a zerg who spammed mutas and lings all game and made a couple major mistakes with his muta control that would've lost him every single muta in a TvZ but unfortunately because of how much stalkers suck vs. light air, was able to retain his muta flock despite less than inspiring control. The commentators however did a really good job of talking up Crazy moving, when they guy is mediocre and just uses an abusive strat. Sorry, calling it the way i see it. yeah and crazymoving dodging every but 1 or 2storms out of the ~20storms Hero casted as well as you can (which is take the initial 20dmg and nothing more) was just bad play, while Heros moveouts with blink stalker templar in which he always lost every single templar, were greast moves, weren't they? At some points of the game he had stray templar sitting around getting killed by zerglings. Also his stargate opening killed exactly 2queens, after the the 10min mark, while his chargeattack was a complete fail and he had to abbandon the idea right after losing his first zealot push. CM basically had a 10-20drone 1base and a ground army advantage when he transitioned into mutalisks... Yes, maybe Tal'darim Altar should fall out of the GSL mappool, if mutas prove to be playable over the whole season on all maps in ZvP, as it is well known that Zerg has an advantage over Terran on this map and mutalisks might give Zerg the same advantage over protoss on it, even though it was a slightly protossfavored map until now. The huge airspace around the bases makes chasing air units just impossible. Both players made some ugly mistakes, but crazymoving getting his mutas trapped twice there and having them fly over multiple stalker groups is just something that flat out loses a zerg the game in the TvZ matchup. My point is it illustrates the Protoss's inability to punish the Zerg as compared to Terran or Zerg. he blinked under them... Good luck doing that with marines... There were a few times where he stuck around after the stalkers arrived to pick off cannons/templar/probes, other times he got caught having to fly over a stalker ball and lost 4 or 5 mutas. You just cannot do this kind of stuff in ZvT, you lose 30 instead of 6 mutas on a bad mistake. Marines run significantly faster than stalkers when stimmed and a lot more of them can be packed into a tight choke point.
That's a given nothing is more annoying as a zerg than losing 15 mutas or so to a handful of marines with a medivac, despite almost even upgrades.
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On November 11 2011 03:36 Ace.Xile wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 03:27 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 03:21 Ace.Xile wrote:On November 11 2011 02:13 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 02:08 Mjolnir wrote:On November 11 2011 00:49 EmilA wrote:On November 10 2011 14:31 Mjolnir wrote:On November 10 2011 14:13 ZorBa.G wrote:
Why not just do something with the stalker? Give it some kind of extra attack for air only.
As a Terran, there is nothing more annoying then well controlled mutas, they just circle your base all day whilst the zerg expos and drones up like a mad man!
Everyone complains about hellions before the patch, mutas are no freaking different IMO... It's practically a flying fkn Hellion! Not only can it shoot ground, but air also!
If Blizzard thinks Mutas are OP, I 100% agree!
Playing as Terran, I am continously trying to defend my base and get my 3rd up. Whenever I try to leave my base... I can't because I either end up as me losing or it's a base trade at best. Then, once you do actually get to leave your base, your next worry is banelings! So you spend all this work to actually get the point where you can somewhat safely leave your base and then you need to worry about freaking banes!
Either nerf the muta, or give us other race a better unit to counter it. I think Blizzard giving us Terrans the battlehellion and Warhound is awesome and I cannot wait to start making butter out of the zerg race! Terran has the easiest time dealing with mutas. Marines destroy them. Turrets are decent early, especially for taking your third before mutas are in large numbers. Adding a Thor in your main or expo is an incredible deterrent. Marines, however, are your bread and butter, and 6 marines hanging out in a base with a few turrets will shut down muta harass pretty well. Mutas are not OP. There's too much knee-jerking going on with Blizzard and it has led to a number of nerfs that in retrospect were probably unwarranted. No, six marines and a turret will not shut down anything. It's more like 30 marines stimming around, helplessly chasing a muta blob which in turn denies terran his needed aggression to stop the snowballing zerg. It's extremely uncommon to see a zerg who reaches 24+ mutas lose to a terran, unless he somehow flies his muta blob over the main army by mistake. It does look like Blizzard goes BW style and adds muta-counters to every race, which is a pretty damn good idea. I wrote 6 marines + turrets for dealing with the early muta harass. That is plenty. What the fuck is all this talk about people saying 24 to 30 mutas (or more!) being OP? If I dumped 3k min and 3k gas into just about any unit it'd be strong. Jesus - if you pressure the zerg and trade, it's really fucking hard for a zerg to mass up those mutas. You all make it sound like we drop a spire and go, "OK, time to make 30 mutas. Wheeeee!" The popular 3 base muta tech switch does get out nearly 20 in the first round... It balloons to thirty pretty fast off 6 gas, and spines are what prevents the pressure from succeeding as much as it should. Its more of a map control issue, its very difficult for protoss to scout out zerg Hatchery locations and engage them without that expeditionary force being intercepted by the entire flock. 3 Base with mutas with 20 on the first round. You can destroy them way before then, and no i'm not saying HEY you should just kill them if they're going mutas, i'm saying, Hey they sure as hell are being greedy stacking 2k/2K + minerals and expanding to 3 bases all while taking 6 gases, and you somehow can't push out and do damage to them? Usually the scenario is that toss goes FFE and zerg grabs a fast third. Zerg at this point will use roaches to try and hold a 2 base protoss timing such as 7 gate/6gate blink +2/etc, if they hold they are usually ahead, and the switch to mutas seals the deal. Alternatively, if protoss does not commit to heavy pressure and goes for a faster third, the Zerg will go ahead and grab mutas. Even if Zerg does not plan to go muta, they will need the spire for corruptors laters anyway, and the lair is standard after 3 base for roach speed/infestor, etc. its just extremely hard for toss to see this switch coming, I agree that if toss knew what was going on they would have a timing window to kill Zerg before the mutas pop but there simply are no clear signs. i think this is one of the main reasons that the oracle is getting the sneak peak ability or whatever it is. They can check if mutas are producing and then phase out the spire, lol. I find it hard to believe the excuse is, well protoss doesn't know what's going on, assuming they aren't going for some sort of heavy pressure build they should usually get a robo up pretty quickly by my understanding, and observers are pretty good at looking around. And you even admitted it yourself, if the protoss isn't going to go for a 2 base timing he's going to try and expand, and the logical choice would be to realize that either the zerg is going to go for some mutas or some huge push as you're expanding, either way all of this can be dealt with with proper scouting.
The problem is timings.
If you opened robo and you scout that they are going for mtuas, you just spent 375/175 on an observer and now have to transition into blink stalkers (which wont be blinkable for something like 100 seconds for twilight and another 140 for blink?)
in that amount of time, mutas could get in there and do a lot of damage. not to mention you cant put any pressure while you are tech switching and they are free to saturate their third and push you with 60 drones worth of saturation
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On November 11 2011 03:36 Ace.Xile wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 03:27 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 03:21 Ace.Xile wrote:On November 11 2011 02:13 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 02:08 Mjolnir wrote:On November 11 2011 00:49 EmilA wrote:On November 10 2011 14:31 Mjolnir wrote:On November 10 2011 14:13 ZorBa.G wrote:
Why not just do something with the stalker? Give it some kind of extra attack for air only.
As a Terran, there is nothing more annoying then well controlled mutas, they just circle your base all day whilst the zerg expos and drones up like a mad man!
Everyone complains about hellions before the patch, mutas are no freaking different IMO... It's practically a flying fkn Hellion! Not only can it shoot ground, but air also!
If Blizzard thinks Mutas are OP, I 100% agree!
Playing as Terran, I am continously trying to defend my base and get my 3rd up. Whenever I try to leave my base... I can't because I either end up as me losing or it's a base trade at best. Then, once you do actually get to leave your base, your next worry is banelings! So you spend all this work to actually get the point where you can somewhat safely leave your base and then you need to worry about freaking banes!
Either nerf the muta, or give us other race a better unit to counter it. I think Blizzard giving us Terrans the battlehellion and Warhound is awesome and I cannot wait to start making butter out of the zerg race! Terran has the easiest time dealing with mutas. Marines destroy them. Turrets are decent early, especially for taking your third before mutas are in large numbers. Adding a Thor in your main or expo is an incredible deterrent. Marines, however, are your bread and butter, and 6 marines hanging out in a base with a few turrets will shut down muta harass pretty well. Mutas are not OP. There's too much knee-jerking going on with Blizzard and it has led to a number of nerfs that in retrospect were probably unwarranted. No, six marines and a turret will not shut down anything. It's more like 30 marines stimming around, helplessly chasing a muta blob which in turn denies terran his needed aggression to stop the snowballing zerg. It's extremely uncommon to see a zerg who reaches 24+ mutas lose to a terran, unless he somehow flies his muta blob over the main army by mistake. It does look like Blizzard goes BW style and adds muta-counters to every race, which is a pretty damn good idea. I wrote 6 marines + turrets for dealing with the early muta harass. That is plenty. What the fuck is all this talk about people saying 24 to 30 mutas (or more!) being OP? If I dumped 3k min and 3k gas into just about any unit it'd be strong. Jesus - if you pressure the zerg and trade, it's really fucking hard for a zerg to mass up those mutas. You all make it sound like we drop a spire and go, "OK, time to make 30 mutas. Wheeeee!" The popular 3 base muta tech switch does get out nearly 20 in the first round... It balloons to thirty pretty fast off 6 gas, and spines are what prevents the pressure from succeeding as much as it should. Its more of a map control issue, its very difficult for protoss to scout out zerg Hatchery locations and engage them without that expeditionary force being intercepted by the entire flock. 3 Base with mutas with 20 on the first round. You can destroy them way before then, and no i'm not saying HEY you should just kill them if they're going mutas, i'm saying, Hey they sure as hell are being greedy stacking 2k/2K + minerals and expanding to 3 bases all while taking 6 gases, and you somehow can't push out and do damage to them? Usually the scenario is that toss goes FFE and zerg grabs a fast third. Zerg at this point will use roaches to try and hold a 2 base protoss timing such as 7 gate/6gate blink +2/etc, if they hold they are usually ahead, and the switch to mutas seals the deal. Alternatively, if protoss does not commit to heavy pressure and goes for a faster third, the Zerg will go ahead and grab mutas. Even if Zerg does not plan to go muta, they will need the spire for corruptors laters anyway, and the lair is standard after 3 base for roach speed/infestor, etc. its just extremely hard for toss to see this switch coming, I agree that if toss knew what was going on they would have a timing window to kill Zerg before the mutas pop but there simply are no clear signs. i think this is one of the main reasons that the oracle is getting the sneak peak ability or whatever it is. They can check if mutas are producing and then phase out the spire, lol. I find it hard to believe the excuse is, well protoss doesn't know what's going on, assuming they aren't going for some sort of heavy pressure build they should usually get a robo up pretty quickly by my understanding, and observers are pretty good at looking around. And you even admitted it yourself, if the protoss isn't going to go for a 2 base timing he's going to try and expand, and the logical choice would be to realize that either the zerg is going to go for some mutas or some huge push as you're expanding, either way all of this can be dealt with with proper scouting.
What on earth are you talking about. I just explained why the switch is hard to scout, even if you see a spire its not quite enough when zerg is on 3 base+, so where are you getting this idea that an observer solves the problem?
Once the switch is done and mutas are up it doesn't matter how much information you have if you can't actually move out safely - which can only happen if the zerg makes mistakes, often serious ones.
You should also remember that toss armies and tech grows linearly, it doesn't move in tiers and explode like Zerg. Protoss cannot say "oh he's going mutas, let me react immediately with X and go kill him before they are made." Protoss has to preemptively eliminate the Zerg before mutalisks hit, and that requires information at at time that Protoss does not have it.
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On November 11 2011 03:41 Ace.Xile wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 03:38 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 03:34 Big J wrote:On November 11 2011 03:30 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 03:24 Big J wrote:On November 11 2011 03:10 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 03:01 Roxy wrote:On November 11 2011 02:56 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 02:45 Roxy wrote:On November 11 2011 02:39 -Archangel- wrote:
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You being sure means nothing when you can watch any pro game and see mutas all die once they are forced to engage the toss army. Same number of stalkers kill same number of mutas although mutas cost more. Add a few sentry to the mix and mutas are useless.
And to get that huge number of mutas (30+) you need to successfuly harass. You cannot engage directly before that number of you lose badly even against much weaker forces. Toss just needs to defend well and not let mutas do much damage. as a matter of fact, i was just watching naniwa's stream where he got absolutely destroyed by mutalisks. he could not take a third. was on metalopolis every time he went to expand to third, mutas would poke into main. hed send stalkers to main. then ling/roach would come deny third. This happened about 8 times before naniwa decided to just all-in off 2 bases (at like the 16 minute mark) with about 95 supply. He opened with a standard FFE. Zerg did no early pressure. Nani had early blink and mostly stalkers in his army. Good idea about the sentries. i forgot that mutas cant target sentries. Having to split his army into 2 or 3 groups in order to defend harass left each group very vulnerable as it is known that protoss units are only strong in a ball and for cost can not hold their own vs ling/roach I also watched that game. Naniwa looked outplayed in that game. He looked like he gave up half way through. He also had people making fun of him in the background. Basing anything on one game means shit. But if you are so keen on doing that go watch Hero vs Crazymoving games from GSL ro48 Code A. Don't have a GSL subscription this season. Care to summarize? I'm guessing that Hero just got lucky and opened with 6gate blink stalker pressure. If so, that is not balance, that is getting lucky with a build order win. There is no way that he would have been able to scout enough from the zerg to decide to open blink stalkers. Hero got rocked by a zerg who spammed mutas and lings all game and made a couple major mistakes with his muta control that would've lost him every single muta in a TvZ but unfortunately because of how much stalkers suck vs. light air, was able to retain his muta flock despite less than inspiring control. The commentators however did a really good job of talking up Crazy moving, when they guy is mediocre and just uses an abusive strat. Sorry, calling it the way i see it. yeah and crazymoving dodging every but 1 or 2storms out of the ~20storms Hero casted as well as you can (which is take the initial 20dmg and nothing more) was just bad play, while Heros moveouts with blink stalker templar in which he always lost every single templar, were greast moves, weren't they? At some points of the game he had stray templar sitting around getting killed by zerglings. Also his stargate opening killed exactly 2queens, after the the 10min mark, while his chargeattack was a complete fail and he had to abbandon the idea right after losing his first zealot push. CM basically had a 10-20drone 1base and a ground army advantage when he transitioned into mutalisks... Yes, maybe Tal'darim Altar should fall out of the GSL mappool, if mutas prove to be playable over the whole season on all maps in ZvP, as it is well known that Zerg has an advantage over Terran on this map and mutalisks might give Zerg the same advantage over protoss on it, even though it was a slightly protossfavored map until now. The huge airspace around the bases makes chasing air units just impossible. Both players made some ugly mistakes, but crazymoving getting his mutas trapped twice there and having them fly over multiple stalker groups is just something that flat out loses a zerg the game in the TvZ matchup. My point is it illustrates the Protoss's inability to punish the Zerg as compared to Terran or Zerg. he blinked under them... Good luck doing that with marines... There were a few times where he stuck around after the stalkers arrived to pick off cannons/templar/probes, other times he got caught having to fly over a stalker ball and lost 4 or 5 mutas. You just cannot do this kind of stuff in ZvT, you lose 30 instead of 6 mutas on a bad mistake. Marines run significantly faster than stalkers when stimmed and a lot more of them can be packed into a tight choke point. That's a given nothing is more annoying as a zerg than losing 15 mutas or so to a handful of marines with a medivac, despite almost even upgrades.
It may be annoying, but not unjustified. Its not like I'm goign to complain about my probes losing straight up in a fight against hellions
from what i have witnessed, marines are not overpowered aginast zerg.
granted this is not my area of expertise, but zerg is perfectly capable of handling marines.
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