|
On November 11 2011 01:43 foxmeep wrote:
The only people consistently losing to mutas are ones that don't know how to pressure efficiently. Of course you are going to lose if you sit in your base and try to defend mutas for 15 mins. Move out before their spire is up, you force Zerg to build units or die. You don't even have to kill much, or even anything at all, then retreat.
If Zerg commits to mass mutas, move out again, you can easily leave enough units in your base to not take huge amounts of damage. The way to beat mutas is to utilise the fact that they are almost useless in combat (for their cost).
Anti-Muta 101 - what do mutas cost a lot of? Gas. What else can Zerg build? Lings. What uses 0 gas and rapes lings. Zealots and marines. If Zerg doesn't commit his gas to anything apart from mutas, then neither do you towards muta counters, in which case your army is always going to win in a straight up battle. Force Zerg to spend his gas elsewhere or die.
The mass muta situation is exactly the same as the Protoss deathball situation was. Zerg cried that it was impossible to beat, and in part it still is. But then Zerg found ways to deal with Protoss before they ever accumulated the deathball.
So in other words you're saying kill a zerg within ten minutes or you lose the game due to them getting one unit that's just TOO good at harass. I've played games where I have constant pressure on zerg, they turtle it and get their mutas, force me to turtle due to harass and just go mass infestor/broodlord. When I get the vikings to hold off the broodlords, fifteen ultras come stomping in. The issue is that there is no real counter to the muta HARASS. Counters to mutalisks themselves? Yes. But they're also SO fast it's extraordinarily difficult to do any damage to a skilled player's mutalisks, and all the while that muta deathball is growing.
For terran players - it's EXTREMELY difficult to drop when you're being harassed by mutas (You're sacrificing your anti-muta harass unit and there's a good chance they'll spot and intercept the drop with the muta deathblob). This leads to a lack of ability to do anything but turtle until you die.
For protoss - if you move out with your army to do...well anything, really, it's a base-trade scenario that the zerg generally will win 'cause they're outside your base when you DO move out, and they have a buncha spines/infestors to slow you down.
Either way, the mutalisk as a singular unit isn't quite overpowered, but their harassment potential certainly is - and when they get up to deathball size, they're damn impossible to fight 
(I approve of the new HOTS units, in case you were wondering  Does the shredder work against air too? )
|
Switzerland2892 Posts
On November 11 2011 01:55 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 01:53 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 01:47 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 00:21 willyallthewei wrote:
I don't know that Mutas are OP, but I do know that they are extremely frustrating to play against Protoss.
The damn things are just so easy to control for zerg, so hard to stop for protoss. You can play near perfect as a protoss and lose to a relatively less skilled opponent who is going muta.
It is definitely frustrating. Actually you got it completely wrong. Muta play is the hardest for Zerg because it takes more micro then normal play. Mutas are useful if they are active all the time (this is a something only mutas let the Zerg player do as they are not melee, they are fast and fly unlike lings who are the other harass unit that you will use if you don't have mutas), and Zerg players need to still spread the creep, inject larva and do all the other macro things they usually do. When you get defeated by mutas that Zerg players played better then the usual ones you meet. Strongly disagree with this statement. Inject larva spread creep, you act like that stuff is rocket science. A decent zerg will do all these things and control the mutas fine. It is harder then toss macro and using mutas with all that is harder then standard zerg game. So Zerg that wins with mutas is higher skilled player, not lower skilled.
On what do you base that?
|
I used to lose to muta alot. But now I open double stargate every game
|
On November 11 2011 01:38 Kireak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 01:20 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 00:46 Kireak wrote:On November 11 2011 00:34 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 00:22 Kireak wrote:
There are in my low level opinion one thing you need foremost when it comes to combat mutas. Range, Since mutas are so fast with sweeping from base to base you need units who can zone out a lot of area without having to move. Thors is a great example if you got more of them, turrets with range upgrades or even vikings who can sit over the static defense/marines/thors and pick of mutas from safety of support is great too.
As protoss I think phoenixes are very hard to use due to the extreme micro they need all the time against mutas, but if you had them at the edge of your bases with cannon or archon support they can fall back on they would be easier to handle. Another even more extreme idea is having a carrier in each base hovering over cannons/archons which can pick of a lot of mutas from safety, only losing interceptors.
The key in both cases is that there is no one unit to handle mutas, but a combination of 2 or maybe 3 units for defense of your bases. As has been said, its not really feasable to have 40+ supplies of units defending each base, Hence a smarter combination of say a thor or vikings with either/marines/ turrets as support would be more effective then just the same supply in one specific unit. Or like I said before, Carriers or phoenixes combined with either archons/cannons/blinkstalkers.
I wish more pros would experiment with this. Carriers are pretty ineffective against muta considering cost/tech line. Phoenix are actually good but just get overwhelmed unless Protoss sees the mutas coming; and since Zerg can safely commit so much to muta play, the mutas are usually better upgraded than the phoenix. The phoenix generally can buy time as the main army moves out in base trade scenarios, however, since you need ground forces to support them vs. a superior number of mutas, once the muta ball gets large enough, phoenix cannot kill the mutas fast enough to prevent them from taking air control and doing serious damage to the Protoss base. i'm not sure how to fix this issue for protoss but its definitely not by buffing stalker vs. Air. Making stalkers too good vs. Anti air creates a deathball problem because of how badly both Zerg and Terran need air to air superiority to kill Colossus. I think the key here is still the phoenix, the role was designed to be a hard counter to mutas but right now they simply don't fit that role. If they buff the phoenix bonus to light biological, I don't see too much of an issue, as corruptors and vikings will remain superior in the air. The point is that while phoenixes arent super effektive verus mutas if they can fly around in circles over cannons or archons the mutas will take heavy losses trying to pick either of the units off. Carriers are a bit the same but very hard to goto unless you want to commit to air. If the mutas are going into your base to pick the carrier off then you got shit under it that will severly hurt the mutas. A more convetional combination is HTs with blinkstalkers, a problem here though is that the mutas can just fart in the direction of the HT and its dead. There need to be a more bulky unit as the backbone which the phoenixes or stalkers can work around, and I only see archons and carriers who can possibly function as that. Unless you want to build clusters of 5+ cannons everywhere in your base. Whatever the key is to defending your base from mutas, its never going to be 1 kind of unit as the game looks today. But what combination is actually the best. Some try blinkstalkers/HTs, some pure phoenix, some thor/marines, some thor/vikings etc etc. You're not thinking about this right. You've defended the mutas. Now what? The combinations of units you talk about are ineffective for a simple reason - they create situations where you need many units at home to defend counter attacks. The point is to regain map control and kill the zerg, thats why you need a cheap cost effective way of fending off muta counter attacks. Currently the best option is cannons + templar because its 50/150 and 150x3 for defense, thats a little more than a single carrier with no support + interceptor and can hold its own against a lot more muta. The reason phoenix are the key is that in practice, they are not redundant, defense only units. That is, if they can fight the mutas at home alone, then they can rejoin with the main army as protoss arrives at the Zerg base so that you can push through the spines and kill them. Its not about holding off the Mutas, if you hold them off you'll just be met with a 6 base zerg off 12 geysers pumping broodlord infestor by 16 minutes. Oh yes I am very aware that carrier is probably worse then phoenix with cannons. But its the exact same thing as using thors for basedefense at home against mutas. Both are slow units that you cant use to keep presure on your opponent unless its a deathball kind of fight from both sides. What seems even more retarded though is the HT tactic since you wont be able to kill the mutas anyway even with a full storm and 3 cannons. Hence its larger waste of resources. I'd recon the most effektive strategy is the phoenix cannon (with a possible archon instead of extra cannons) defense, but it seems like pros dont feel the same. Its like they think they need to beat the mutas with pure phoenix without support or a location to fall back to. Which to me seems very stupid. Its the same mindset in TvZ when terran pros goes "herp derp vikings suck against mutas so wont make them untill I smell broodlords" when infact they are very good when it comes to zoning out large areas. Just let them hover above turrets or have a bunch of marines closeby. But no, they need their medivacs like they're hooked on some drug :/
1.) Thors are are different - they deal splash and can be repaired.
2.) You're not killing the mutas, HT's goal is not to kill the mutas.
3.) You're calling HT/cannons and pro builds stupid, i don't know what to say, I've tried explaining to you why they are the only viable options. most of your solutions are prohibitively expensive.
Phoenix are 150/100 each to the 100/100 of muta, you are then adding cannons at 150 each to that mix. Try to see why your solutions are unworkable and stop calling pro strategies stupid, perhaps they aren't optimal but no one has created a workable solution that is better. I also don't like where this conversation is headed, I'm out.
|
On November 11 2011 01:43 foxmeep wrote:
The only people consistently losing to mutas are ones that don't know how to pressure efficiently. Of course you are going to lose if you sit in your base and try to defend mutas for 15 mins. Move out before their spire is up, you force Zerg to build units or die. You don't even have to kill much, or even anything at all, then retreat.
If Zerg commits to mass mutas, move out again, you can easily leave enough units in your base to not take huge amounts of damage. The way to beat mutas is to utilise the fact that they are almost useless in combat (for their cost).
Anti-Muta 101 - what do mutas cost a lot of? Gas. What else can Zerg build? Lings. What uses 0 gas and rapes lings. Zealots and marines. If Zerg doesn't commit his gas to anything apart from mutas, then neither do you towards muta counters, in which case your army is always going to win in a straight up battle. Force Zerg to spend his gas elsewhere or die.
The mass muta situation is exactly the same as the Protoss deathball situation was. Zerg cried that it was impossible to beat, and in part it still is. But then Zerg found ways to deal with Protoss before they ever accumulated the deathball.
Lol, talking like a pro. Now tell me what are you going to do when you want to pressure. Zerg just need lings in front of your base at 6 mins mark to know that you move out to attack, so they could put up 10 spinecrawlers. Now what's next sir? VR is bad against Zerg nowaday due to sporecrawlers buff, dt is the same cuz any zerg know that dt rush comes around 8 mins mark. Warprism is cute, but just leave enough lings and roaches to defend the mineral lines and zerg will be fine right?
Now what kind of pressure do we have?
|
On November 10 2011 22:03 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 14:31 Mjolnir wrote:On November 10 2011 14:13 ZorBa.G wrote:
Why not just do something with the stalker? Give it some kind of extra attack for air only.
As a Terran, there is nothing more annoying then well controlled mutas, they just circle your base all day whilst the zerg expos and drones up like a mad man!
Everyone complains about hellions before the patch, mutas are no freaking different IMO... It's practically a flying fkn Hellion! Not only can it shoot ground, but air also!
If Blizzard thinks Mutas are OP, I 100% agree!
Playing as Terran, I am continously trying to defend my base and get my 3rd up. Whenever I try to leave my base... I can't because I either end up as me losing or it's a base trade at best. Then, once you do actually get to leave your base, your next worry is banelings! So you spend all this work to actually get the point where you can somewhat safely leave your base and then you need to worry about freaking banes!
Either nerf the muta, or give us other race a better unit to counter it. I think Blizzard giving us Terrans the battlehellion and Warhound is awesome and I cannot wait to start making butter out of the zerg race! Terran has the easiest time dealing with mutas. Marines destroy them. Turrets are decent early, especially for taking your third before mutas are in large numbers. Adding a Thor in your main or expo is an incredible deterrent. Marines, however, are your bread and butter, and 6 marines hanging out in a base with a few turrets will shut down muta harass pretty well. Mutas are not OP. There's too much knee-jerking going on with Blizzard and it has led to a number of nerfs that in retrospect were probably unwarranted. 6 marines aren't going to kill 30 mutas flying from base to base
All you people talking about mutas being OP use these huge numbers of mutas to justify your argument. 30 mutas? Thirty? Do you know how hard it is to get 30 mutas up - or even retain your numbers to get 30 mutas late-game?
If you're losing to 30 mutas (especially as Terran) you need to fucking attack more. Period.
|
On November 11 2011 01:55 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 01:53 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 01:47 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 00:21 willyallthewei wrote:
I don't know that Mutas are OP, but I do know that they are extremely frustrating to play against Protoss.
The damn things are just so easy to control for zerg, so hard to stop for protoss. You can play near perfect as a protoss and lose to a relatively less skilled opponent who is going muta.
It is definitely frustrating. Actually you got it completely wrong. Muta play is the hardest for Zerg because it takes more micro then normal play. Mutas are useful if they are active all the time (this is a something only mutas let the Zerg player do as they are not melee, they are fast and fly unlike lings who are the other harass unit that you will use if you don't have mutas), and Zerg players need to still spread the creep, inject larva and do all the other macro things they usually do. When you get defeated by mutas that Zerg players played better then the usual ones you meet. Strongly disagree with this statement. Inject larva spread creep, you act like that stuff is rocket science. A decent zerg will do all these things and control the mutas fine. It is harder then toss macro and using mutas with all that is harder then standard zerg game. So Zerg that wins with mutas is higher skilled player, not lower skilled.
Disagree completely. Any decent zerg player will do well enough with muta control to deal damage to toss and prevent them from leaving the base. Macroing during that time is not hard at all because you have no fear of recourse, how is that harder than standard zerg play where an extra round of drones can kill you?
|
ok 6 marines aren't going to kill 6 mutas either.
and it's not hard at all to keep macroing while controlling mutas tbh. it's harder to keep macroing while trying to defend muta harrass.
|
On November 11 2011 00:49 EmilA wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 14:31 Mjolnir wrote:On November 10 2011 14:13 ZorBa.G wrote:
Why not just do something with the stalker? Give it some kind of extra attack for air only.
As a Terran, there is nothing more annoying then well controlled mutas, they just circle your base all day whilst the zerg expos and drones up like a mad man!
Everyone complains about hellions before the patch, mutas are no freaking different IMO... It's practically a flying fkn Hellion! Not only can it shoot ground, but air also!
If Blizzard thinks Mutas are OP, I 100% agree!
Playing as Terran, I am continously trying to defend my base and get my 3rd up. Whenever I try to leave my base... I can't because I either end up as me losing or it's a base trade at best. Then, once you do actually get to leave your base, your next worry is banelings! So you spend all this work to actually get the point where you can somewhat safely leave your base and then you need to worry about freaking banes!
Either nerf the muta, or give us other race a better unit to counter it. I think Blizzard giving us Terrans the battlehellion and Warhound is awesome and I cannot wait to start making butter out of the zerg race! Terran has the easiest time dealing with mutas. Marines destroy them. Turrets are decent early, especially for taking your third before mutas are in large numbers. Adding a Thor in your main or expo is an incredible deterrent. Marines, however, are your bread and butter, and 6 marines hanging out in a base with a few turrets will shut down muta harass pretty well. Mutas are not OP. There's too much knee-jerking going on with Blizzard and it has led to a number of nerfs that in retrospect were probably unwarranted. No, six marines and a turret will not shut down anything. It's more like 30 marines stimming around, helplessly chasing a muta blob which in turn denies terran his needed aggression to stop the snowballing zerg. It's extremely uncommon to see a zerg who reaches 24+ mutas lose to a terran, unless he somehow flies his muta blob over the main army by mistake. It does look like Blizzard goes BW style and adds muta-counters to every race, which is a pretty damn good idea.
I wrote 6 marines + turrets for dealing with the early muta harass. That is plenty.
What the fuck is all this talk about people saying 24 to 30 mutas (or more!) being OP? If I dumped 3k min and 3k gas into just about any unit it'd be strong. Jesus - if you pressure the zerg and trade, it's really fucking hard for a zerg to mass up those mutas.
You all make it sound like we drop a spire and go, "OK, time to make 30 mutas. Wheeeee!"
|
The introduction of the Tempest could very well be a map thing. Watching HerO deal with mutas more or less proves that you can learn to survive muta harassment very well as toss. Then again, HerO himself lost to mutas (Crazymoving) on Tal'darim in Code A, where the mutas could make use of the chasm between the main and third and the highground with forest on it between the natural and far corner of the main to constantly jump around Hero's army. An air unit capable of fighting muta flocks could help solving defensive play on (imbalanced?) maps with a lot of gaps and obstacles...
... and it could also account for the fact that a lot of players, including myself, are not pro and simply don't have the multitasking to readily have atleast 2 HT's with storms at every base, center the camera on them at exactly the right time and storm, while attacking, expanding, constructing gateways and cannons and upgrading at the same time to make your blink stalkers finally outweigh the mutas after 25 min of mental exhaustion. Simply put, it will help lower league players defend in long games. A lot.
|
On November 11 2011 02:08 Mjolnir wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 00:49 EmilA wrote:On November 10 2011 14:31 Mjolnir wrote:On November 10 2011 14:13 ZorBa.G wrote:
Why not just do something with the stalker? Give it some kind of extra attack for air only.
As a Terran, there is nothing more annoying then well controlled mutas, they just circle your base all day whilst the zerg expos and drones up like a mad man!
Everyone complains about hellions before the patch, mutas are no freaking different IMO... It's practically a flying fkn Hellion! Not only can it shoot ground, but air also!
If Blizzard thinks Mutas are OP, I 100% agree!
Playing as Terran, I am continously trying to defend my base and get my 3rd up. Whenever I try to leave my base... I can't because I either end up as me losing or it's a base trade at best. Then, once you do actually get to leave your base, your next worry is banelings! So you spend all this work to actually get the point where you can somewhat safely leave your base and then you need to worry about freaking banes!
Either nerf the muta, or give us other race a better unit to counter it. I think Blizzard giving us Terrans the battlehellion and Warhound is awesome and I cannot wait to start making butter out of the zerg race! Terran has the easiest time dealing with mutas. Marines destroy them. Turrets are decent early, especially for taking your third before mutas are in large numbers. Adding a Thor in your main or expo is an incredible deterrent. Marines, however, are your bread and butter, and 6 marines hanging out in a base with a few turrets will shut down muta harass pretty well. Mutas are not OP. There's too much knee-jerking going on with Blizzard and it has led to a number of nerfs that in retrospect were probably unwarranted. No, six marines and a turret will not shut down anything. It's more like 30 marines stimming around, helplessly chasing a muta blob which in turn denies terran his needed aggression to stop the snowballing zerg. It's extremely uncommon to see a zerg who reaches 24+ mutas lose to a terran, unless he somehow flies his muta blob over the main army by mistake. It does look like Blizzard goes BW style and adds muta-counters to every race, which is a pretty damn good idea. I wrote 6 marines + turrets for dealing with the early muta harass. That is plenty. What the fuck is all this talk about people saying 24 to 30 mutas (or more!) being OP? If I dumped 3k min and 3k gas into just about any unit it'd be strong. Jesus - if you pressure the zerg and trade, it's really fucking hard for a zerg to mass up those mutas. You all make it sound like we drop a spire and go, "OK, time to make 30 mutas. Wheeeee!"
The popular 3 base muta tech switch does get out nearly 20 in the first round... It balloons to thirty pretty fast off 6 gas, and spines are what prevents the pressure from succeeding as much as it should.
Its more of a map control issue, its very difficult for protoss to scout out zerg Hatchery locations and engage them without that expeditionary force being intercepted by the entire flock.
|
There only needs to be 1 fix, HSM speed Buff to catch up to mutas or give ravens irradiate, That's all we need to fix Muta death cloud problem,
Pros can split their mutas and still do damage, and it's a death sentence to the muta cloud, problem solved. For protoss.... Bring back Maelstrom
|
On November 11 2011 02:15 Blasterion wrote:
There only needs to be 1 fix, HSM speed Buff to catch up to mutas or give ravens irradiate, That's all we need to fix Muta death cloud problem,
Pros can split their mutas and still do damage, and it's a death sentence to the muta cloud, problem solved. For protoss.... Bring back Maelstrom
These seem like some pretty solid suggestions. Maelstorm on HT? thatd be sweet
|
Should maelstrom have a high energy cost then? Otherwise ht's only are going to instantly counter muta harass with maelstrom + storm.
|
On November 11 2011 02:20 Hermanoid wrote:
Should maelstrom have a high energy cost then? Otherwise ht's only are going to instantly counter muta harass with maelstrom + storm.
I am here to give ideas, cost, duration, dps, is all balance which i am honestly no good at, when it comes down to small details. but yes 1 templar shouldn't be able to Maelstrom Storm back to back, 2 templars can however
|
[QUOTE]On November 11 2011 01:56 Celebreth wrote:
[QUOTE]On November 11 2011 01:43 foxmeep wrote:
The mass muta situation is exactly the same as the Protoss deathball situation was. Zerg cried that it was impossible to beat, and in part it still is. But then Zerg found ways to deal with Protoss before they ever accumulated the deathball.
[/QUOTE]
LOL wrong, zerg learned to beat deathball by crying till they got infestor buff. Get your facts straight
|
On November 11 2011 01:56 Celebreth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 01:43 foxmeep wrote:
The only people consistently losing to mutas are ones that don't know how to pressure efficiently. Of course you are going to lose if you sit in your base and try to defend mutas for 15 mins. Move out before their spire is up, you force Zerg to build units or die. You don't even have to kill much, or even anything at all, then retreat.
If Zerg commits to mass mutas, move out again, you can easily leave enough units in your base to not take huge amounts of damage. The way to beat mutas is to utilise the fact that they are almost useless in combat (for their cost).
Anti-Muta 101 - what do mutas cost a lot of? Gas. What else can Zerg build? Lings. What uses 0 gas and rapes lings. Zealots and marines. If Zerg doesn't commit his gas to anything apart from mutas, then neither do you towards muta counters, in which case your army is always going to win in a straight up battle. Force Zerg to spend his gas elsewhere or die.
The mass muta situation is exactly the same as the Protoss deathball situation was. Zerg cried that it was impossible to beat, and in part it still is. But then Zerg found ways to deal with Protoss before they ever accumulated the deathball.
So in other words you're saying kill a zerg within ten minutes or you lose the game due to them getting one unit that's just TOO good at harass. I've played games where I have constant pressure on zerg, they turtle it and get their mutas, force me to turtle due to harass and just go mass infestor/broodlord. When I get the vikings to hold off the broodlords, fifteen ultras come stomping in. The issue is that there is no real counter to the muta HARASS. Counters to mutalisks themselves? Yes. But they're also SO fast it's extraordinarily difficult to do any damage to a skilled player's mutalisks, and all the while that muta deathball is growing. For terran players - it's EXTREMELY difficult to drop when you're being harassed by mutas (You're sacrificing your anti-muta harass unit and there's a good chance they'll spot and intercept the drop with the muta deathblob). This leads to a lack of ability to do anything but turtle until you die. For protoss - if you move out with your army to do...well anything, really, it's a base-trade scenario that the zerg generally will win 'cause they're outside your base when you DO move out, and they have a buncha spines/infestors to slow you down. Either way, the mutalisk as a singular unit isn't quite overpowered, but their harassment potential certainly is - and when they get up to deathball size, they're damn impossible to fight (I approve of the new HOTS units, in case you were wondering Does the shredder work against air too? )
Marine just crush mutas, thors are good too, turrets too. All those are efficient, the only advantage muta has is their mobility.
Also, I find your comment funny considering the fact that zerg just could not do anything against protoss deathball for a long long time, and nobody thought it was not balanced. You don't specially need to harass to gain against muta, but a timing attack works wonder, and you also can maccro up. Don't tell me terran can"t do shit against muta because that's ridiculous.
|
On November 11 2011 02:05 willyallthewei wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 01:55 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 01:53 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 01:47 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 00:21 willyallthewei wrote:
I don't know that Mutas are OP, but I do know that they are extremely frustrating to play against Protoss.
The damn things are just so easy to control for zerg, so hard to stop for protoss. You can play near perfect as a protoss and lose to a relatively less skilled opponent who is going muta.
It is definitely frustrating. Actually you got it completely wrong. Muta play is the hardest for Zerg because it takes more micro then normal play. Mutas are useful if they are active all the time (this is a something only mutas let the Zerg player do as they are not melee, they are fast and fly unlike lings who are the other harass unit that you will use if you don't have mutas), and Zerg players need to still spread the creep, inject larva and do all the other macro things they usually do. When you get defeated by mutas that Zerg players played better then the usual ones you meet. Strongly disagree with this statement. Inject larva spread creep, you act like that stuff is rocket science. A decent zerg will do all these things and control the mutas fine. It is harder then toss macro and using mutas with all that is harder then standard zerg game. So Zerg that wins with mutas is higher skilled player, not lower skilled. Disagree completely. Any decent zerg player will do well enough with muta control to deal damage to toss and prevent them from leaving the base. Macroing during that time is not hard at all because you have no fear of recourse, how is that harder than standard zerg play where an extra round of drones can kill you?
Then we agree to disagree.
And it is way easier to defend because mutas are really weak direct combatants. You need to babysit them a lot for them to be useful. You cannot inject larva and spread creep while doing that.
Do you know what DRG is most known for? Best muta control and one of the best inject larva. No, not every zerg is good with that as you say or they would all be DRG. The ones you meet that kill you with mutas are just better then you. Plain an simple. Instead of whining here accept that and start working on your mechanics and game.
Now I understand why toss players lose so much and complain if mutas are difficult to them. Spreading units against fungals and EMP must be impossible then 
|
On November 11 2011 02:22 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 02:20 Hermanoid wrote:
Should maelstrom have a high energy cost then? Otherwise ht's only are going to instantly counter muta harass with maelstrom + storm. I am here to give ideas, cost, duration, dps, is all balance which i am honestly no good at, when it comes down to small details. but yes 1 templar shouldn't be able to Maelstrom Storm back to back, 2 templars can however
Say Maelstrom is 125 energy
Say Storm is 75 energy
Say the templar has 200 energy
Say the templar maelstroms and then storms a flock of mutas
How is this worse than chain-fungaling 4 times?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
