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I can only really comment on ZvT but here are my thoughts.
Early muta harass is fine, Terran can completly deal with the initial 6-12 mutas with marines/turrets. It comes down to micro and positioning and these initial engagements are fine.
However, when the muta cloud goes up to 25-30+, it becomes extremly hard for the terran player to deal with that many mutas.
Marines deal with them in a straight up 1V1 yes, but in an engagement where there are stupid amounts of banelings/zerglings and with anything less than superb splitting and baneling targetting, you end up losing alot of marines. If you dont micro at all, you will lose everything, if you micro, the mutas will snipe the tanks while you micro away from the banelings and that will set you very far behind in tanks count.
The muta death-cloud becomes both extremly powerfull in an engagement and in harrasement. If you move out as terran and a muta cloud moves into the main, it actually doesnt matter how many turrets you have. If you go for the push/tadebase anyway, well, he can kinda just...come back, mutas are hardly ever out of position.
Thors? Yes, alot of thors deal with mutas, infortunatly, that means you have less tanks, and the basic ling/baneling ball will actually be sufficient to defeat you.
The MLG Idra vs Bomber is a good example of what i'm trying to explain, or really any idra V T game.
He goes up to that muta death cloud and then due to extreme mobility, good stacking and with good micro you can actually snipe groups of 5-10 marines really easy with no damage taken (DRG vs Thorzain at dreamhack summer, last game on antiga).
Cant really comment on ZvP much, but it seems if protoss players went more high templar than collosi, it would serve them well.
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the advantage you get out of massing them is too big. In my eyes muta should have been just a transition unit to keep opponent on less base than you then switch to a "better" unit but since hydra are so bad...
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On November 10 2011 22:17 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 22:11 Ace.Xile wrote:On November 10 2011 22:03 Blasterion wrote:On November 10 2011 14:31 Mjolnir wrote:On November 10 2011 14:13 ZorBa.G wrote:
Why not just do something with the stalker? Give it some kind of extra attack for air only.
As a Terran, there is nothing more annoying then well controlled mutas, they just circle your base all day whilst the zerg expos and drones up like a mad man!
Everyone complains about hellions before the patch, mutas are no freaking different IMO... It's practically a flying fkn Hellion! Not only can it shoot ground, but air also!
If Blizzard thinks Mutas are OP, I 100% agree!
Playing as Terran, I am continously trying to defend my base and get my 3rd up. Whenever I try to leave my base... I can't because I either end up as me losing or it's a base trade at best. Then, once you do actually get to leave your base, your next worry is banelings! So you spend all this work to actually get the point where you can somewhat safely leave your base and then you need to worry about freaking banes!
Either nerf the muta, or give us other race a better unit to counter it. I think Blizzard giving us Terrans the battlehellion and Warhound is awesome and I cannot wait to start making butter out of the zerg race! Terran has the easiest time dealing with mutas. Marines destroy them. Turrets are decent early, especially for taking your third before mutas are in large numbers. Adding a Thor in your main or expo is an incredible deterrent. Marines, however, are your bread and butter, and 6 marines hanging out in a base with a few turrets will shut down muta harass pretty well. Mutas are not OP. There's too much knee-jerking going on with Blizzard and it has led to a number of nerfs that in retrospect were probably unwarranted. 6 marines aren't going to kill 30 mutas flying from base to base you wan't marines (something extremely less expensive) to counter mutas at a 5 to 1 basis despite the mineral cost? Mutas cost what 100 minerals, and 100 gas, essentially 4 times the amount that marines do. Do people like you think before these comments are made? with combat shield and stim marines destroy mutas period. Adding in a medivac or two completely changes the dynamic. So lesson of the day? make 60 marines - you're supply equivalent. Not only can they defend a 3base very easily with turret help if two groups meet they'll destroy the mutas. God forbid you take into account turrets and thors. Turrets and Thors are great deterents but they suck fighting muta death clouds, 60 marines aren't going to be at every base ready to defend mutas deathclouds that 1 shot turrets. The problem with mutas is that they scale exponentially with number and can be easily controlled in a large croup
Thors are great vs mutalisks. That's why good zergs don't even open mutalisks if they scout mech. Every good Terran has Mutatimings figuered out and will have 1thor and 2turrets/mineraline ready when the first 8mutalisks arrive. Mutalisks are then completly denied from harassing bases, as they can't combat stray thors+turrets when SCVs are near. Once Thor numbers get up in double digits with hellion support, it is lights out for every zerg unit that is not a broodlord, but you can't have them because you went mutalisks all game long. Now good luck basetrading muta/ling vs Thor/hellion. Hellions+PF will just roflstomp the zerglings, while a turretwall +maybe 1-2thors (minerals are no problem in mech play) are gonna keep it safe from the mutalisks.
And btw: show me that player that can handle a 11sight range air unit that is not gonna get shot by 10range thors, while harassing. (hint: It's like saying that a 4range phoenix counters infinite amounts of 3range mutalisks...)
But if you really think that mutalisks are so great vs Thors, please tell me why there are so many Code S Terrans who go Mech vs Zerg from time to time, and why a lot of Code S zergs don't even open mutalisks against Mech, but instead go roach and fast Hive instead, even though you claim that mutaliskplay is a freewin vs Mech.
Magicbox is a thing you use if you want to pick up stray thors that are badly timed in mech builds (single thor defense vs 10+ mutalisks, instead of standard double thor against 7-8 mutalisks) or that are used as a little bonus defense in biomech pushes, to give the marines more room to attack.
And about exponential scaling... You wanna know which unit is the best scaling unit in the game costwise? The stim/combatshield Marine. It scales FAR better than the mutalisk.
And yes, you are supposed to spread your marines on 3bases if you are encountering mutaplay. Every good Terran in the world is doing it when he goes biomech in TvZ, just like every good Zerg has to build spines and spread lings and infestors all over his bases against drops in mutaless play. If you don't want to multitask like that, you're free to play other styles like Thor/hellion or Bio, which both deny mutaliskplay completly, but therefore open other weaknesses (roach & early Hiveplay; infestor banling play). You don't even have to play terran if it isn't fun for you, if you can't handle mutalisks. Others do, and they show every TvZ they play that Terran can keep its 50+% winrate against every zergstyle out there.
Yes, maybe it's harder to defend vs mutalisks as to play them, but that's also true for TONS of aggressive TvZ strategies.
On November 10 2011 23:10 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 22:58 oogieogie wrote:On November 10 2011 22:17 Blasterion wrote:On November 10 2011 22:11 Ace.Xile wrote:On November 10 2011 22:03 Blasterion wrote:On November 10 2011 14:31 Mjolnir wrote:On November 10 2011 14:13 ZorBa.G wrote:
Why not just do something with the stalker? Give it some kind of extra attack for air only.
As a Terran, there is nothing more annoying then well controlled mutas, they just circle your base all day whilst the zerg expos and drones up like a mad man!
Everyone complains about hellions before the patch, mutas are no freaking different IMO... It's practically a flying fkn Hellion! Not only can it shoot ground, but air also!
If Blizzard thinks Mutas are OP, I 100% agree!
Playing as Terran, I am continously trying to defend my base and get my 3rd up. Whenever I try to leave my base... I can't because I either end up as me losing or it's a base trade at best. Then, once you do actually get to leave your base, your next worry is banelings! So you spend all this work to actually get the point where you can somewhat safely leave your base and then you need to worry about freaking banes!
Either nerf the muta, or give us other race a better unit to counter it. I think Blizzard giving us Terrans the battlehellion and Warhound is awesome and I cannot wait to start making butter out of the zerg race! Terran has the easiest time dealing with mutas. Marines destroy them. Turrets are decent early, especially for taking your third before mutas are in large numbers. Adding a Thor in your main or expo is an incredible deterrent. Marines, however, are your bread and butter, and 6 marines hanging out in a base with a few turrets will shut down muta harass pretty well. Mutas are not OP. There's too much knee-jerking going on with Blizzard and it has led to a number of nerfs that in retrospect were probably unwarranted. 6 marines aren't going to kill 30 mutas flying from base to base you wan't marines (something extremely less expensive) to counter mutas at a 5 to 1 basis despite the mineral cost? Mutas cost what 100 minerals, and 100 gas, essentially 4 times the amount that marines do. Do people like you think before these comments are made? with combat shield and stim marines destroy mutas period. Adding in a medivac or two completely changes the dynamic. So lesson of the day? make 60 marines - you're supply equivalent. Not only can they defend a 3base very easily with turret help if two groups meet they'll destroy the mutas. God forbid you take into account turrets and thors. Turrets and Thors are great deterents but they suck fighting muta death clouds, 60 marines aren't going to be at every base ready to defend mutas deathclouds that 1 shot turrets. The problem with mutas is that they scale exponentially with number and can be easily controlled in a large croup no way do you need 60 marines per base..hell a thor + some marines or like 10 marines + medivac w/good upgrades will easily scare a cloud of mutas at least long enough for your army to get there. I mean if they get a huge number like 40 then that could be a problem, but T should be able to deal with mutas really easily. a thor and 10 marines is 16x2 Assuming you are on 3 bases since your main army can defend 1 expo, 32 supply of units. that's not apart of your main army, now if that army gets attacked by the zerg with everything, muta included. you just lost the game the thing is you don't know when or where the mutas will fly in.
That's why you have wall offs, semi walloffs, bunkers and sieged tanks at home and maps are layed out to have chokes and ramps in front of bases. Melee units lose the battle in such situations, even if they outnumber the opponent by a great deal.
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A unit composition is hard to deal with.
Of course it is. Why would your opponent make those units if they knew you could've handled them easily?
It's a challenge. That's the whole point of the game.
This is not a sibling rivalry where you whine to your parents that your brother got some amount of allowance, an extra scoop of ice cream, or got to sleep over at a friends house and you didn't. These threads are painful to read.
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On November 10 2011 23:53 jdsowa wrote:
A unit composition is hard to deal with.
Of course it is. Why would your opponent make those units if they knew you could've handled them easily?
It's a challenge. That's the whole point of the game.
This is not a sibling rivalry where you whine to your parents that your brother got some amount of allowance, an extra scoop of ice cream, or got to sleep over at a friends house and you didn't. These threads are painful to read.
your post is painful to read since it's clear you didn't read the thread
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On November 10 2011 23:30 Big J wrote:
Thors are great vs mutalisks. That's why good zergs don't even open mutalisks if they scout mech. Every good Terran has Mutatimings figuered out and will have 1thor and 2turrets/mineraline ready when the first 8mutalisks arrive. Mutalisks are then completly denied from harassing bases, as they can't combat stray thors+turrets when SCVs are near. Once Thor numbers get up in double digits with hellion support, it is lights out for every zerg unit that is not a broodlord, but you can't have them because you went mutalisks all game long. Now good luck basetrading muta/ling vs Thor/hellion. Hellions+PF will just roflstomp the zerglings, while a turretwall +maybe 1-2thors (minerals are no problem in mech play) are gonna keep it safe from the mutalisks.
And btw: show me that player that can handle a 11sight range air unit that is not gonna get shot by 10range thors, while harassing. (hint: It's like saying that a 4range phoenix counters infinite amounts of 3range mutalisks...)
But if you really think that mutalisks are so great vs Thors, please tell me why there are so many Code S Terrans who go Mech vs Zerg from time to time, and why a lot of Code S zergs don't even open mutalisks against Mech, but instead go roach and fast Hive instead, even though you claim that mutaliskplay is a freewin vs Mech.
Magicbox is a thing you use if you want to pick up stray thors that are badly timed in mech builds (single thor defense vs 10+ mutalisks, instead of standard double thor against 7-8 mutalisks) or that are used as a little bonus defense in biomech pushes, to give the marines more room to attack.
And about exponential scaling... You wanna know which unit is the best scaling unit in the game costwise? The stim/combatshield Marine. It scales FAR better than the mutalisk.
And yes, you are supposed to spread your marines on 3bases if you are encountering mutaplay. Every good Terran in the world is doing it when he goes biomech in TvZ, just like every good Zerg has to build spines and spread lings and infestors all over his bases against drops in mutaless play. If you don't want to multitask like that, you're free to play other styles like Thor/hellion or Bio, which both deny mutaliskplay completly, but therefore open other weaknesses (roach & early Hiveplay; infestor banling play). You don't even have to play terran if it isn't fun for you, if you can't handle mutalisks. Others do, and they show every TvZ they play that Terran can keep its 50+% winrate against every zergstyle out there.
Yes, maybe it's harder to defend vs mutalisks as to play them, but that's also true for TONS of aggressive TvZ strategies.
At the standard muta timing, having two thors in a bio mech build (1 per mineral line) is absurd, as it means you can be overrun due to a lack of siege tanks. Yes, if I am sure he goes muta, I can deny the initial harass, though that harass usually hits when you have to move out to attack his 3rd. You move out, either you push is completely denied, because you have no siege tanks as you made thors to defend at home, or mutas can deal damage and still be back in time for defense. Btw: 2 turrets per mineral line might be OK for the initial harass not to lose SCVs, but your structures and add-ons are still vulnerable, generating a serious delay in production.
And honestly I would say that you don't see mutas vs mech, because you need gas for roaches and infestors that are better. Not because mutas are that bad. If you force many siege tanks with roaches and then go for a switch, mutas are a good choice, because they can deal with the thors if thors are the only anti air. Though usually mech play incorporates creeping around the map with turret coverage and thors + turrets are a tough.
As an example look at July vs clide. Clide went bio mech and he went NUTS on his turrets, placing them in groups of 2-3 everywhere with marine batches everywhere. It just took one unlucky moment, where Clide decided to drop those marines and he got torn by less than 20 mutas, who cleaned up the medivac, then the 3 turrets and went to town on everything dealing a lot of damage. And had you seen the base before the attack you'd think that clide had gone too far with his muta defense.
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I don't know that Mutas are OP, but I do know that they are extremely frustrating to play against Protoss.
The damn things are just so easy to control for zerg, so hard to stop for protoss. You can play near perfect as a protoss and lose to a relatively less skilled opponent who is going muta.
It is definitely frustrating.
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There are in my low level opinion one thing you need foremost when it comes to combat mutas. Range, Since mutas are so fast with sweeping from base to base you need units who can zone out a lot of area without having to move. Thors is a great example if you got more of them, turrets with range upgrades or even vikings who can sit over the static defense/marines/thors and pick of mutas from safety of support is great too.
As protoss I think phoenixes are very hard to use due to the extreme micro they need all the time against mutas, but if you had them at the edge of your bases with cannon or archon support they can fall back on they would be easier to handle. Another even more extreme idea is having a carrier in each base hovering over cannons/archons which can pick of a lot of mutas from safety, only losing interceptors.
The key in both cases is that there is no one unit to handle mutas, but a combination of 2 or maybe 3 units for defense of your bases. As has been said, its not really feasable to have 40+ supplies of units defending each base, Hence a smarter combination of say a thor or vikings with either/marines/ turrets as support would be more effective then just the same supply in one specific unit. Or like I said before, Carriers or phoenixes combined with either archons/cannons/blinkstalkers.
I wish more pros would experiment with this.
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On October 25 2011 18:16 GhostFall wrote:
Watching the Multiplayer Panel from Blizzcon, I got confused by some of the unit decisions that Blizzard are introducing into HOTS.
Kim and Browder were saying in the community interviews that they don't think this far ahead. They come up with cool ideas, put them in the game and see how they go. They don't approach things from the ground up (ie, seeing what the metagame is and how it should change) they think about what's "cool" and "exciting" and maybe something new for that race. Then they can worry about the balancing of abilities, and what the abilities even are later.
They even said they had about 3 or 4 different ideas for the warhound that they had been through already, and they definitely expected it to change again. (he even said it could look like a goliath if that made the most sense with the art guys.) And they just picked the most recent idea for the unit to take to Blizzcon.
Either way, I think these particular units are definitely not thought of as being applied to the pro level at all. It's probably more so for the Really new people who go like mass carrier and get beaten by a mass muta.
I mean, think about those who probably would pick up the game every couple of months to challenge a friend, when at a LAN playing some 2v2, or doing a 8 player free for all, and That game is not as fun as BW.... Not even close. My friends say so at least.
Anyway, it's all kind of just pissing in the wind at the end of the day, it's not like this is the final beta build or anything... I'm sure Everything we saw will change at least somewhat before release. I mean think back at the WOL unit announcements, how much has everything changed since then?
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On November 11 2011 00:22 Kireak wrote:
There are in my low level opinion one thing you need foremost when it comes to combat mutas. Range, Since mutas are so fast with sweeping from base to base you need units who can zone out a lot of area without having to move. Thors is a great example if you got more of them, turrets with range upgrades or even vikings who can sit over the static defense/marines/thors and pick of mutas from safety of support is great too.
As protoss I think phoenixes are very hard to use due to the extreme micro they need all the time against mutas, but if you had them at the edge of your bases with cannon or archon support they can fall back on they would be easier to handle. Another even more extreme idea is having a carrier in each base hovering over cannons/archons which can pick of a lot of mutas from safety, only losing interceptors.
The key in both cases is that there is no one unit to handle mutas, but a combination of 2 or maybe 3 units for defense of your bases. As has been said, its not really feasable to have 40+ supplies of units defending each base, Hence a smarter combination of say a thor or vikings with either/marines/ turrets as support would be more effective then just the same supply in one specific unit. Or like I said before, Carriers or phoenixes combined with either archons/cannons/blinkstalkers.
I wish more pros would experiment with this.
Carriers are pretty ineffective against muta considering cost/tech line.
Phoenix are actually good but just get overwhelmed unless Protoss sees the mutas coming; and since Zerg can safely commit so much to muta play, the mutas are usually better upgraded than the phoenix. The phoenix generally can buy time as the main army moves out in base trade scenarios, however, since you need ground forces to support them vs. a superior number of mutas, once the muta ball gets large enough, phoenix cannot kill the mutas fast enough to prevent them from taking air control and doing serious damage to the Protoss base.
i'm not sure how to fix this issue for protoss but its definitely not by buffing stalker vs. Air.
Making stalkers too good vs. Anti air creates a deathball problem because of how badly both Zerg and Terran need air to air superiority to kill Colossus.
I think the key here is still the phoenix, the role was designed to be a hard counter to mutas but right now they simply don't fit that role. If they buff the phoenix bonus to light biological, I don't see too much of an issue, as corruptors and vikings will remain superior in the air.
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On November 11 2011 00:34 willyallthewei wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 00:22 Kireak wrote:
There are in my low level opinion one thing you need foremost when it comes to combat mutas. Range, Since mutas are so fast with sweeping from base to base you need units who can zone out a lot of area without having to move. Thors is a great example if you got more of them, turrets with range upgrades or even vikings who can sit over the static defense/marines/thors and pick of mutas from safety of support is great too.
As protoss I think phoenixes are very hard to use due to the extreme micro they need all the time against mutas, but if you had them at the edge of your bases with cannon or archon support they can fall back on they would be easier to handle. Another even more extreme idea is having a carrier in each base hovering over cannons/archons which can pick of a lot of mutas from safety, only losing interceptors.
The key in both cases is that there is no one unit to handle mutas, but a combination of 2 or maybe 3 units for defense of your bases. As has been said, its not really feasable to have 40+ supplies of units defending each base, Hence a smarter combination of say a thor or vikings with either/marines/ turrets as support would be more effective then just the same supply in one specific unit. Or like I said before, Carriers or phoenixes combined with either archons/cannons/blinkstalkers.
I wish more pros would experiment with this. Carriers are pretty ineffective against muta considering cost/tech line. Phoenix are actually good but just get overwhelmed unless Protoss sees the mutas coming; and since Zerg can safely commit so much to muta play, the mutas are usually better upgraded than the phoenix. The phoenix generally can buy time as the main army moves out in base trade scenarios, however, since you need ground forces to support them vs. a superior number of mutas, once the muta ball gets large enough, phoenix cannot kill the mutas fast enough to prevent them from taking air control and doing serious damage to the Protoss base. i'm not sure how to fix this issue for protoss but its definitely not by buffing stalker vs. Air. Making stalkers too good vs. Anti air creates a deathball problem because of how badly both Zerg and Terran need air to air superiority to kill Colossus. I think the key here is still the phoenix, the role was designed to be a hard counter to mutas but right now they simply don't fit that role. If they buff the phoenix bonus to light biological, I don't see too much of an issue, as corruptors and vikings will remain superior in the air.
The point is that while phoenixes arent super effektive verus mutas if they can fly around in circles over cannons or archons the mutas will take heavy losses trying to pick either of the units off. Carriers are a bit the same but very hard to goto unless you want to commit to air. If the mutas are going into your base to pick the carrier off then you got shit under it that will severly hurt the mutas. A more convetional combination is HTs with blinkstalkers, a problem here though is that the mutas can just fart in the direction of the HT and its dead. There need to be a more bulky unit as the backbone which the phoenixes or stalkers can work around, and I only see archons and carriers who can possibly function as that. Unless you want to build clusters of 5+ cannons everywhere in your base.
Whatever the key is to defending your base from mutas, its never going to be 1 kind of unit as the game looks today. But what combination is actually the best. Some try blinkstalkers/HTs, some pure phoenix, some thor/marines, some thor/vikings etc etc.
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On November 10 2011 14:31 Mjolnir wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 14:13 ZorBa.G wrote:
Why not just do something with the stalker? Give it some kind of extra attack for air only.
As a Terran, there is nothing more annoying then well controlled mutas, they just circle your base all day whilst the zerg expos and drones up like a mad man!
Everyone complains about hellions before the patch, mutas are no freaking different IMO... It's practically a flying fkn Hellion! Not only can it shoot ground, but air also!
If Blizzard thinks Mutas are OP, I 100% agree!
Playing as Terran, I am continously trying to defend my base and get my 3rd up. Whenever I try to leave my base... I can't because I either end up as me losing or it's a base trade at best. Then, once you do actually get to leave your base, your next worry is banelings! So you spend all this work to actually get the point where you can somewhat safely leave your base and then you need to worry about freaking banes!
Either nerf the muta, or give us other race a better unit to counter it. I think Blizzard giving us Terrans the battlehellion and Warhound is awesome and I cannot wait to start making butter out of the zerg race! Terran has the easiest time dealing with mutas. Marines destroy them. Turrets are decent early, especially for taking your third before mutas are in large numbers. Adding a Thor in your main or expo is an incredible deterrent. Marines, however, are your bread and butter, and 6 marines hanging out in a base with a few turrets will shut down muta harass pretty well. Mutas are not OP. There's too much knee-jerking going on with Blizzard and it has led to a number of nerfs that in retrospect were probably unwarranted.
No, six marines and a turret will not shut down anything. It's more like 30 marines stimming around, helplessly chasing a muta blob which in turn denies terran his needed aggression to stop the snowballing zerg. It's extremely uncommon to see a zerg who reaches 24+ mutas lose to a terran, unless he somehow flies his muta blob over the main army by mistake.
It does look like Blizzard goes BW style and adds muta-counters to every race, which is a pretty damn good idea.
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On November 11 2011 00:16 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 23:30 Big J wrote:
Thors are great vs mutalisks. That's why good zergs don't even open mutalisks if they scout mech. Every good Terran has Mutatimings figuered out and will have 1thor and 2turrets/mineraline ready when the first 8mutalisks arrive. Mutalisks are then completly denied from harassing bases, as they can't combat stray thors+turrets when SCVs are near. Once Thor numbers get up in double digits with hellion support, it is lights out for every zerg unit that is not a broodlord, but you can't have them because you went mutalisks all game long. Now good luck basetrading muta/ling vs Thor/hellion. Hellions+PF will just roflstomp the zerglings, while a turretwall +maybe 1-2thors (minerals are no problem in mech play) are gonna keep it safe from the mutalisks.
And btw: show me that player that can handle a 11sight range air unit that is not gonna get shot by 10range thors, while harassing. (hint: It's like saying that a 4range phoenix counters infinite amounts of 3range mutalisks...)
But if you really think that mutalisks are so great vs Thors, please tell me why there are so many Code S Terrans who go Mech vs Zerg from time to time, and why a lot of Code S zergs don't even open mutalisks against Mech, but instead go roach and fast Hive instead, even though you claim that mutaliskplay is a freewin vs Mech.
Magicbox is a thing you use if you want to pick up stray thors that are badly timed in mech builds (single thor defense vs 10+ mutalisks, instead of standard double thor against 7-8 mutalisks) or that are used as a little bonus defense in biomech pushes, to give the marines more room to attack.
And about exponential scaling... You wanna know which unit is the best scaling unit in the game costwise? The stim/combatshield Marine. It scales FAR better than the mutalisk.
And yes, you are supposed to spread your marines on 3bases if you are encountering mutaplay. Every good Terran in the world is doing it when he goes biomech in TvZ, just like every good Zerg has to build spines and spread lings and infestors all over his bases against drops in mutaless play. If you don't want to multitask like that, you're free to play other styles like Thor/hellion or Bio, which both deny mutaliskplay completly, but therefore open other weaknesses (roach & early Hiveplay; infestor banling play). You don't even have to play terran if it isn't fun for you, if you can't handle mutalisks. Others do, and they show every TvZ they play that Terran can keep its 50+% winrate against every zergstyle out there.
Yes, maybe it's harder to defend vs mutalisks as to play them, but that's also true for TONS of aggressive TvZ strategies.
At the standard muta timing, having two thors in a bio mech build (1 per mineral line) is absurd, as it means you can be overrun due to a lack of siege tanks. Yes, if I am sure he goes muta, I can deny the initial harass, though that harass usually hits when you have to move out to attack his 3rd. You move out, either you push is completely denied, because you have no siege tanks as you made thors to defend at home, or mutas can deal damage and still be back in time for defense. Btw: 2 turrets per mineral line might be OK for the initial harass not to lose SCVs, but your structures and add-ons are still vulnerable, generating a serious delay in production. And honestly I would say that you don't see mutas vs mech, because you need gas for roaches and infestors that are better. Not because mutas are that bad. If you force many siege tanks with roaches and then go for a switch, mutas are a good choice, because they can deal with the thors if thors are the only anti air. Though usually mech play incorporates creeping around the map with turret coverage and thors + turrets are a tough. As an example look at July vs clide. Clide went bio mech and he went NUTS on his turrets, placing them in groups of 2-3 everywhere with marine batches everywhere. It just took one unlucky moment, where Clide decided to drop those marines and he got torn by less than 20 mutas, who cleaned up the medivac, then the 3 turrets and went to town on everything dealing a lot of damage. And had you seen the base before the attack you'd think that clide had gone too far with his muta defense.
the 2thors are meant if you go mech. If you go biomech you don't need them and you don't want them, of course.
Sadly, I haven't watched the game, only listened to the stream so I can't comment too much on that, but yeah, I know that mutas are a unit that is great to abuse weaknesses, but isn't it the same idea with drops? Or even more cruel: dropping while pushing out or double dropping.
It's all the same concepts: Spreading out when you don't have to fight, gathering when you do have to fight.
Also loading up units that are an essential part of your defense seems like a risk that Clide knew off, but still he did it.
Also, your structures are rather tough, whilst easily defendible with the same marines that you want to have around for mineral defense as well. Losing an addon hurts, but if that's all his mutalisks are able to do and you're sitting on 3base, I can assure you that the zerg is shitting his pants at least as much as you do, because like every harass unit, mutas are supposed to do damage to a player.
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On November 11 2011 00:54 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 00:16 Thrombozyt wrote:On November 10 2011 23:30 Big J wrote:
Thors are great vs mutalisks. That's why good zergs don't even open mutalisks if they scout mech. Every good Terran has Mutatimings figuered out and will have 1thor and 2turrets/mineraline ready when the first 8mutalisks arrive. Mutalisks are then completly denied from harassing bases, as they can't combat stray thors+turrets when SCVs are near. Once Thor numbers get up in double digits with hellion support, it is lights out for every zerg unit that is not a broodlord, but you can't have them because you went mutalisks all game long. Now good luck basetrading muta/ling vs Thor/hellion. Hellions+PF will just roflstomp the zerglings, while a turretwall +maybe 1-2thors (minerals are no problem in mech play) are gonna keep it safe from the mutalisks.
And btw: show me that player that can handle a 11sight range air unit that is not gonna get shot by 10range thors, while harassing. (hint: It's like saying that a 4range phoenix counters infinite amounts of 3range mutalisks...)
But if you really think that mutalisks are so great vs Thors, please tell me why there are so many Code S Terrans who go Mech vs Zerg from time to time, and why a lot of Code S zergs don't even open mutalisks against Mech, but instead go roach and fast Hive instead, even though you claim that mutaliskplay is a freewin vs Mech.
Magicbox is a thing you use if you want to pick up stray thors that are badly timed in mech builds (single thor defense vs 10+ mutalisks, instead of standard double thor against 7-8 mutalisks) or that are used as a little bonus defense in biomech pushes, to give the marines more room to attack.
And about exponential scaling... You wanna know which unit is the best scaling unit in the game costwise? The stim/combatshield Marine. It scales FAR better than the mutalisk.
And yes, you are supposed to spread your marines on 3bases if you are encountering mutaplay. Every good Terran in the world is doing it when he goes biomech in TvZ, just like every good Zerg has to build spines and spread lings and infestors all over his bases against drops in mutaless play. If you don't want to multitask like that, you're free to play other styles like Thor/hellion or Bio, which both deny mutaliskplay completly, but therefore open other weaknesses (roach & early Hiveplay; infestor banling play). You don't even have to play terran if it isn't fun for you, if you can't handle mutalisks. Others do, and they show every TvZ they play that Terran can keep its 50+% winrate against every zergstyle out there.
Yes, maybe it's harder to defend vs mutalisks as to play them, but that's also true for TONS of aggressive TvZ strategies.
At the standard muta timing, having two thors in a bio mech build (1 per mineral line) is absurd, as it means you can be overrun due to a lack of siege tanks. Yes, if I am sure he goes muta, I can deny the initial harass, though that harass usually hits when you have to move out to attack his 3rd. You move out, either you push is completely denied, because you have no siege tanks as you made thors to defend at home, or mutas can deal damage and still be back in time for defense. Btw: 2 turrets per mineral line might be OK for the initial harass not to lose SCVs, but your structures and add-ons are still vulnerable, generating a serious delay in production. And honestly I would say that you don't see mutas vs mech, because you need gas for roaches and infestors that are better. Not because mutas are that bad. If you force many siege tanks with roaches and then go for a switch, mutas are a good choice, because they can deal with the thors if thors are the only anti air. Though usually mech play incorporates creeping around the map with turret coverage and thors + turrets are a tough. As an example look at July vs clide. Clide went bio mech and he went NUTS on his turrets, placing them in groups of 2-3 everywhere with marine batches everywhere. It just took one unlucky moment, where Clide decided to drop those marines and he got torn by less than 20 mutas, who cleaned up the medivac, then the 3 turrets and went to town on everything dealing a lot of damage. And had you seen the base before the attack you'd think that clide had gone too far with his muta defense. the 2thors are meant if you go mech. If you go biomech you don't need them and you don't want them, of course. Sadly, I haven't watched the game, only listened to the stream so I can't comment too much on that, but yeah, I know that mutas are a unit that is great to abuse weaknesses, but isn't it the same idea with drops? Or even more cruel: dropping while pushing out or double dropping. It's all the same concepts: Spreading out when you don't have to fight, gathering when you do have to fight. Also loading up units that are an essential part of your defense seems like a risk that Clide knew off, but still he did it. Also, your structures are rather tough, whilst easily defendible with the same marines that you want to have around for mineral defense as well. Losing an addon hurts, but if that's all his mutalisks are able to do and you're sitting on 3base, I can assure you that the zerg is shitting his pants at least as much as you do, because like every harass unit, mutas are supposed to do damage to a player.
Well, after he had 8 marines and a medivac sandwiched by FIVE turrets and July didn't show his mutas for minutes, it's just logical to pick up and try to move out. The bad luck was that July was just outside of vision.
For the general muta defense, why don't you need thors? Because you have marines? At the 11 minute mark you usually sit on 2 base and are about to push out or are just pushing. Often you have no medivacs, so every stim hurts. You are NOT sitting on 3 base most maps, because you can hardly defend 2 and with add-on sniping, espcially with reactors around, you deal TONS of damage due to lost production time. Sitting on two base not able to leave because you cannot have enough static defense to deter a sack of your base by mutas is one of the most frustrating things and the more bases you have the worse the situation. Usually even bio mech is forced into thos, because mutas scale so well. Yes, marine in a straight up fight scale better, but marines can only defend one area, while mutas can threaten all areas. Thus mutas stack way better, because as the game progresses, you have to spread out more.
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On November 11 2011 00:46 Kireak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 00:34 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 00:22 Kireak wrote:
There are in my low level opinion one thing you need foremost when it comes to combat mutas. Range, Since mutas are so fast with sweeping from base to base you need units who can zone out a lot of area without having to move. Thors is a great example if you got more of them, turrets with range upgrades or even vikings who can sit over the static defense/marines/thors and pick of mutas from safety of support is great too.
As protoss I think phoenixes are very hard to use due to the extreme micro they need all the time against mutas, but if you had them at the edge of your bases with cannon or archon support they can fall back on they would be easier to handle. Another even more extreme idea is having a carrier in each base hovering over cannons/archons which can pick of a lot of mutas from safety, only losing interceptors.
The key in both cases is that there is no one unit to handle mutas, but a combination of 2 or maybe 3 units for defense of your bases. As has been said, its not really feasable to have 40+ supplies of units defending each base, Hence a smarter combination of say a thor or vikings with either/marines/ turrets as support would be more effective then just the same supply in one specific unit. Or like I said before, Carriers or phoenixes combined with either archons/cannons/blinkstalkers.
I wish more pros would experiment with this. Carriers are pretty ineffective against muta considering cost/tech line. Phoenix are actually good but just get overwhelmed unless Protoss sees the mutas coming; and since Zerg can safely commit so much to muta play, the mutas are usually better upgraded than the phoenix. The phoenix generally can buy time as the main army moves out in base trade scenarios, however, since you need ground forces to support them vs. a superior number of mutas, once the muta ball gets large enough, phoenix cannot kill the mutas fast enough to prevent them from taking air control and doing serious damage to the Protoss base. i'm not sure how to fix this issue for protoss but its definitely not by buffing stalker vs. Air. Making stalkers too good vs. Anti air creates a deathball problem because of how badly both Zerg and Terran need air to air superiority to kill Colossus. I think the key here is still the phoenix, the role was designed to be a hard counter to mutas but right now they simply don't fit that role. If they buff the phoenix bonus to light biological, I don't see too much of an issue, as corruptors and vikings will remain superior in the air. The point is that while phoenixes arent super effektive verus mutas if they can fly around in circles over cannons or archons the mutas will take heavy losses trying to pick either of the units off. Carriers are a bit the same but very hard to goto unless you want to commit to air. If the mutas are going into your base to pick the carrier off then you got shit under it that will severly hurt the mutas. A more convetional combination is HTs with blinkstalkers, a problem here though is that the mutas can just fart in the direction of the HT and its dead. There need to be a more bulky unit as the backbone which the phoenixes or stalkers can work around, and I only see archons and carriers who can possibly function as that. Unless you want to build clusters of 5+ cannons everywhere in your base. Whatever the key is to defending your base from mutas, its never going to be 1 kind of unit as the game looks today. But what combination is actually the best. Some try blinkstalkers/HTs, some pure phoenix, some thor/marines, some thor/vikings etc etc.
You're not thinking about this right. You've defended the mutas. Now what?
The combinations of units you talk about are ineffective for a simple reason - they create situations where you need many units at home to defend counter attacks. The point is to regain map control and kill the zerg, thats why you need a cheap cost effective way of fending off muta counter attacks.
Currently the best option is cannons + templar because its 50/150 and 150x3 for defense, thats a little more than a single carrier with no support + interceptor and can hold its own against a lot more muta.
The reason phoenix are the key is that in practice, they are not redundant, defense only units. That is, if they can fight the mutas at home alone, then they can rejoin with the main army as protoss arrives at the Zerg base so that you can push through the spines and kill them.
Its not about holding off the Mutas, if you hold them off you'll just be met with a 6 base zerg off 12 geysers pumping broodlord infestor by 16 minutes.
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On November 11 2011 01:20 willyallthewei wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 00:46 Kireak wrote:On November 11 2011 00:34 willyallthewei wrote:On November 11 2011 00:22 Kireak wrote:
There are in my low level opinion one thing you need foremost when it comes to combat mutas. Range, Since mutas are so fast with sweeping from base to base you need units who can zone out a lot of area without having to move. Thors is a great example if you got more of them, turrets with range upgrades or even vikings who can sit over the static defense/marines/thors and pick of mutas from safety of support is great too.
As protoss I think phoenixes are very hard to use due to the extreme micro they need all the time against mutas, but if you had them at the edge of your bases with cannon or archon support they can fall back on they would be easier to handle. Another even more extreme idea is having a carrier in each base hovering over cannons/archons which can pick of a lot of mutas from safety, only losing interceptors.
The key in both cases is that there is no one unit to handle mutas, but a combination of 2 or maybe 3 units for defense of your bases. As has been said, its not really feasable to have 40+ supplies of units defending each base, Hence a smarter combination of say a thor or vikings with either/marines/ turrets as support would be more effective then just the same supply in one specific unit. Or like I said before, Carriers or phoenixes combined with either archons/cannons/blinkstalkers.
I wish more pros would experiment with this. Carriers are pretty ineffective against muta considering cost/tech line. Phoenix are actually good but just get overwhelmed unless Protoss sees the mutas coming; and since Zerg can safely commit so much to muta play, the mutas are usually better upgraded than the phoenix. The phoenix generally can buy time as the main army moves out in base trade scenarios, however, since you need ground forces to support them vs. a superior number of mutas, once the muta ball gets large enough, phoenix cannot kill the mutas fast enough to prevent them from taking air control and doing serious damage to the Protoss base. i'm not sure how to fix this issue for protoss but its definitely not by buffing stalker vs. Air. Making stalkers too good vs. Anti air creates a deathball problem because of how badly both Zerg and Terran need air to air superiority to kill Colossus. I think the key here is still the phoenix, the role was designed to be a hard counter to mutas but right now they simply don't fit that role. If they buff the phoenix bonus to light biological, I don't see too much of an issue, as corruptors and vikings will remain superior in the air. The point is that while phoenixes arent super effektive verus mutas if they can fly around in circles over cannons or archons the mutas will take heavy losses trying to pick either of the units off. Carriers are a bit the same but very hard to goto unless you want to commit to air. If the mutas are going into your base to pick the carrier off then you got shit under it that will severly hurt the mutas. A more convetional combination is HTs with blinkstalkers, a problem here though is that the mutas can just fart in the direction of the HT and its dead. There need to be a more bulky unit as the backbone which the phoenixes or stalkers can work around, and I only see archons and carriers who can possibly function as that. Unless you want to build clusters of 5+ cannons everywhere in your base. Whatever the key is to defending your base from mutas, its never going to be 1 kind of unit as the game looks today. But what combination is actually the best. Some try blinkstalkers/HTs, some pure phoenix, some thor/marines, some thor/vikings etc etc. You're not thinking about this right. You've defended the mutas. Now what? The combinations of units you talk about are ineffective for a simple reason - they create situations where you need many units at home to defend counter attacks. The point is to regain map control and kill the zerg, thats why you need a cheap cost effective way of fending off muta counter attacks. Currently the best option is cannons + templar because its 50/150 and 150x3 for defense, thats a little more than a single carrier with no support + interceptor and can hold its own against a lot more muta. The reason phoenix are the key is that in practice, they are not redundant, defense only units. That is, if they can fight the mutas at home alone, then they can rejoin with the main army as protoss arrives at the Zerg base so that you can push through the spines and kill them. Its not about holding off the Mutas, if you hold them off you'll just be met with a 6 base zerg off 12 geysers pumping broodlord infestor by 16 minutes.
Oh yes I am very aware that carrier is probably worse then phoenix with cannons. But its the exact same thing as using thors for basedefense at home against mutas. Both are slow units that you cant use to keep presure on your opponent unless its a deathball kind of fight from both sides.
What seems even more retarded though is the HT tactic since you wont be able to kill the mutas anyway even with a full storm and 3 cannons. Hence its larger waste of resources.
I'd recon the most effektive strategy is the phoenix cannon (with a possible archon instead of extra cannons) defense, but it seems like pros dont feel the same. Its like they think they need to beat the mutas with pure phoenix without support or a location to fall back to. Which to me seems very stupid.
Its the same mindset in TvZ when terran pros goes "herp derp vikings suck against mutas so wont make them untill I smell broodlords" when infact they are very good when it comes to zoning out large areas. Just let them hover above turrets or have a bunch of marines closeby. But no, they need their medivacs like they're hooked on some drug :/
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The only people consistently losing to mutas are ones that don't know how to pressure efficiently. Of course you are going to lose if you sit in your base and try to defend mutas for 15 mins. Move out before their spire is up, you force Zerg to build units or die. You don't even have to kill much, or even anything at all, then retreat.
If Zerg commits to mass mutas, move out again, you can easily leave enough units in your base to not take huge amounts of damage. The way to beat mutas is to utilise the fact that they are almost useless in combat (for their cost).
Anti-Muta 101 - what do mutas cost a lot of? Gas. What else can Zerg build? Lings. What uses 0 gas and rapes lings. Zealots and marines. If Zerg doesn't commit his gas to anything apart from mutas, then neither do you towards muta counters, in which case your army is always going to win in a straight up battle. Force Zerg to spend his gas elsewhere or die.
The mass muta situation is exactly the same as the Protoss deathball situation was. Zerg cried that it was impossible to beat, and in part it still is. But then Zerg found ways to deal with Protoss before they ever accumulated the deathball.
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On November 11 2011 00:21 willyallthewei wrote:
I don't know that Mutas are OP, but I do know that they are extremely frustrating to play against Protoss.
The damn things are just so easy to control for zerg, so hard to stop for protoss. You can play near perfect as a protoss and lose to a relatively less skilled opponent who is going muta.
It is definitely frustrating.
Actually you got it completely wrong. Muta play is the hardest for Zerg because it takes more micro then normal play. Mutas are useful if they are active all the time (this is a something only mutas let the Zerg player do as they are not melee, they are fast and fly unlike lings who are the other harass unit that you will use if you don't have mutas), and Zerg players need to still spread the creep, inject larva and do all the other macro things they usually do.
When you get defeated by mutas that Zerg players played better then the usual ones you meet.
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On November 11 2011 01:47 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 00:21 willyallthewei wrote:
I don't know that Mutas are OP, but I do know that they are extremely frustrating to play against Protoss.
The damn things are just so easy to control for zerg, so hard to stop for protoss. You can play near perfect as a protoss and lose to a relatively less skilled opponent who is going muta.
It is definitely frustrating. Actually you got it completely wrong. Muta play is the hardest for Zerg because it takes more micro then normal play. Mutas are useful if they are active all the time (this is a something only mutas let the Zerg player do as they are not melee, they are fast and fly unlike lings who are the other harass unit that you will use if you don't have mutas), and Zerg players need to still spread the creep, inject larva and do all the other macro things they usually do. When you get defeated by mutas that Zerg players played better then the usual ones you meet.
Strongly disagree with this statement.
Inject larva spread creep, you act like that stuff is rocket science. A decent zerg will do all these things and control the mutas fine, infact they'll add 2 bases 20 spines while they are at it.
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On November 11 2011 01:53 willyallthewei wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 01:47 -Archangel- wrote:On November 11 2011 00:21 willyallthewei wrote:
I don't know that Mutas are OP, but I do know that they are extremely frustrating to play against Protoss.
The damn things are just so easy to control for zerg, so hard to stop for protoss. You can play near perfect as a protoss and lose to a relatively less skilled opponent who is going muta.
It is definitely frustrating. Actually you got it completely wrong. Muta play is the hardest for Zerg because it takes more micro then normal play. Mutas are useful if they are active all the time (this is a something only mutas let the Zerg player do as they are not melee, they are fast and fly unlike lings who are the other harass unit that you will use if you don't have mutas), and Zerg players need to still spread the creep, inject larva and do all the other macro things they usually do. When you get defeated by mutas that Zerg players played better then the usual ones you meet. Strongly disagree with this statement. Inject larva spread creep, you act like that stuff is rocket science. A decent zerg will do all these things and control the mutas fine.
It is harder then toss macro and using mutas with all that is harder then standard zerg game. So Zerg that wins with mutas is higher skilled player, not lower skilled.
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EPT
