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ShatterZer0
United States1843 Posts
On October 22 2011 22:04 Qikz wrote: Has anyone thought about replicators replicating the viper? You can pull either their viper into your army or your collosus back to safety! O_O "GET OVER HERE, COLOSSUS!" "GET BACK HERE, COLOSSUS!" Oh, the Colossus and it's replicator/viper Mortal Kombat harem... | ||
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Woizit
801 Posts
On October 22 2011 21:37 Dommk wrote: They have a ramp up time, it said in the preview that it takes a few spawns before the Swarm Host starts producing at a fast pace. Most likely it will overwhelm players who take too long to break the defensive line and in the same way, reward Zergs who are good enough to delay your opponents enough to the point where the Swarm Hosts force a retreat. Lurkers were more like Siege Tanks I agree, but Zerg in SC2 would be stupidly strong with such a unit. If that's the case, I see it with more of a defensive use than being a zerg swarm wave. It's usually a full wave forcing the opponent back, which means that while replenishing the army they'll be slowing down the push towards them, like fodder blocking the route. Honestly I don't feel that the idea of having it pressure siege/ turtle positions is a good one, and as said, broodlords seem to be a better choice. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On October 22 2011 22:06 NormandyBoy wrote: I like the ideology behind the swarm host (horrible name btw) : being able to control space more. However I thibk the locusts sould be more numerous and weaker in order to get the swarm feeling. Right now they're so slow to spawn it's more a wave than an endless stream. Also I'm not sure about : "the longer the hosts stay burrowed the more locusts they spawn", lurkers reached their full DPS instantly so it was worth it to run them very close to the opponent's army. It seems the hosts are more stationary and long-ranged than lurkers. Maybe it's intended this way but this makes the unit look quite one-dimensional compared to its ancestor. The same thing can be said about the shredder : you're not allowed to use them offensively : too expensive, long to deploy, AND they won't even fire if one of your units gets close...I love map-control but I hate one-purpose only units. By the way, does someone know if shredders can be produce 2 at a time with a reactor ? My guess is no (seems very powerful for turtling). Thing with the shredder is, there will be offensive uses for it, but it's mainly like a supply costing better spidermine so you can use it to spot for your mech and it slows the enemies push down to allow you to reposition your tanks. | ||
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
On October 22 2011 22:05 Dommk wrote: I edited my other post, but I'll paste it here again  Swarm hosts effectively just spawn free Cannon fodder. Although the locus might get eaten up quickly, imagine having a group of Hydra/Roach supporting each wave. You would engage with each wave of Locus and then back out when they die, taking very little damage to your main army. Against Protoss you can use the opportunity to force all over Protoss's forcefield, or against Terran just inflict too much damage for them to sustain their hold. Remember the old Hydralisk/Spinecrawler pushes? Imagine them with Swarm hosts, instead of having to worry about inching spinecawlers, now you can swarm wave after wave of cannon fodder for your Hydralisks A single wave might not make that big of a difference, but after 4-5 waves of constant back and forth you could get into a position where the Protoss has been force to waste so many FF's that he can no longer defend the main army, getting completely over run you dont need to do this tho because of vipers which reduces the range of ranged units to 1. so cannon fodder is useless when u can get rid of those key units with vipers pull/cloud abilities. | ||
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secretary bird
447 Posts
On October 22 2011 21:58 Paladia wrote: Not exactly right away. You need to build command center, supply depot, rax and then turn it into an orbital command. On top of that you need to spend 200/200 on the replicator and the time it takes to build. Not to mention you miss out on the abilities of the nexus. There is a reason dark archons werent used in BW. It would take a while to get more than 3 ghosts out and using like 2k resources for something that wont help you for 6 min or so would be strictly lategame, but 100% useless? I dunno man. | ||
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ETisME
12275 Posts
Coupled with tanks, they can stop the zerg from flanking really effectively and even greater map control overall. I can see it as a really strong unit throughout the whole early to late game | ||
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Sega92
United States467 Posts
zerg units get a thumbs up from me protoss units- LOL and those are my thoughts | ||
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Fishgle
United States2174 Posts
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NormandyBoy
France200 Posts
On October 22 2011 22:09 Qikz wrote: Thing with the shredder is, there will be offensive uses for it, but it's mainly like a supply costing better spidermine so you can use it to spot for your mech and it slows the enemies push down to allow you to reposition your tanks. Do you really want to use 150 mineral and more importantly 150 gas for that ? Is it worth it ? I mean the thing has like 4 range, a handful of stalkers/roaches/marines can probably destroy it without sustaining any damage. And you don't even have to have detection to do that (in the vid, the roaches can't walk on them, so it's not like a burrowed unit)... The stats can change, but in essence I don't see how this unit can become as interesting (i.e. have as many roles) as the spider mine. | ||
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Shounen
Brazil20 Posts
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On October 22 2011 22:09 Woizit wrote: If that's the case, I see it with more of a defensive use than being a zerg swarm wave. It's usually a full wave forcing the opponent back, which means that while replenishing the army they'll be slowing down the push towards them. Honestly I don't feel that the idea of having it pressure siege/ turtle positions is a good one, and as said, broodlords seem to be a better choice. I still see it as being equally an offensive unit as a defensive unit. Much more so offensive. Each Swarm host spawns 3 Locus with 90hp, compared to a Broodlords broodling which has 30hp, and unlike the Broodlord they are available MUCH sooner--most likely tier 2. It will bring a more methodical type of gameplay to Zerg, where which they move in and our using the cannon fodder to absorb damage. Obviously the unit probably wont work well with Zergling armies, but it might actually make Hydras viable in TvZ! Only reason Hydras are poor in TvZ is that there isn't a form of cannon fodder that is cost effective to make use of the Hydras, but what is more cost effective than free!? I can almost guarantee you there will be Zerg offensive timings with Swarm Hosts. They won't be end game timings but rather early/mid game ones where they pressure the Protoss/Terran who don't quite have the AOE to efficiently deal with them. Broodlord pushes don't exactly work the same way, by the time you get enough out the Protoss has enough tech and economy to get the AOE required to deal with them. But what about Swarm Host pushes? If they are T2, then the Protoss might not even have Colossus if they opted to go for fast Blink/Upgrades/Quick Third. I think it might open up a bunch of 2base all-ins for Zerg :p On October 22 2011 22:10 Ballistixz wrote: you dont need to do this tho because of vipers which reduces the range of ranged units to 1. so cannon fodder is useless when u can get rid of those key units with vipers pull/cloud abilities. So what if you used them together? That way you can guarantee your Locus getting to the enemy unharmed. I think the Swarm host will only be used for Roach/Hydra based armies as they are the only units that can really take advantage of the Locus. People need to stop down playing the Locus as well, the thing has 90hp. That is effectively half the HP of a Stalker | ||
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althaz
Australia1001 Posts
 ), the worst ability to control space, the slowest army, the least cost-effective units and the worst macro mechanic.Gunna play Zerg from here on out I think (I suck too hard at TvZ if my cheese fails ). I would have switched to Zerg already but I dislike Broodlords vs Toss, now I won't need them .One thing I do love about the new spells is that they'll heighten the skill-cap of the game. | ||
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BinxyBrown
United States230 Posts
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Striding Strider
United Kingdom787 Posts
Carrier removed Mothership removed Tier 3 Super Pheonix Harassment unit Replicant to copy useful units from Terran/Zerg So looking forward to this expansion /sarcasm | ||
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Big G
Italy835 Posts
Mech could be viable in TvP since the new hellions are good against chargelots, which are the only mineral dump Protoss has. The Replicant could become a staple to copy siege tanks and ghosts (which I'm really excited to). What I find scary about this is that no changes were announced for bioball and gateway units (and warpgate): so bio AND mech should be equally viable, adding even more flexibility to Terran while the new Toss units are so gas intensive that the current composition (gate units + colossi/ht) will be soooo hard to change. To mine that gas, Toss should be really aggressive with expansions, on par with Zerg. In this regard I can only think of a constant warp in / recall cycle to be anywhere on the map, so maybe the standard composition won't change that much BUT the playstyle will (a lot). Toss has always been considered weak in early game (or early tech) and strong in late game (or late tech), so I'm really confused about the choice to add other expensive units while not addressing the weakness of tier1. I still hope that they move the warpgate to a midgame mechanic (50/50 to morph each gateway) buffing the stalker in exchange. On a side note, I'm really curious about the Tempest. It seems to share the anti-light role with Phoenix and the (ground) single target damage with the Void Ray, so I don't understand it. The actual Void Ray is the most clear example of failed design, so I'm actually very surprised to see it in HOTS. Regarding ZvT: Baneling burrowed movement, Ultra's charge and Viper's Blinding Cloud are 3 major changes that fit in the current playstyle and improve it from the Zerg side. What do Terrans get in exchange? Is the Shredder enough? | ||
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tztztz
Germany314 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On October 22 2011 22:18 tztztz wrote: can someone tell me why the carrier has to be removed? sincerely, i don't get it and i just want to know what the thought process of blizzard is in that regard. because i don't see ANY point in removing this unit. it's not like the mothership which has to give one of his spells to the nexus. it's just that the carrier isn't used that much. but still i don't get it: first, it's not like it isn't used at all, you see is now and than, and in the ladder even more often. second, even if noone would use it, i don't see any harm in keeping it in the game. like, thats a generell thing i always asked myself, but how does a game benefit from removing useless units? why not just keep them in? maybe someday someone will make this useless unit work. It just doesn't work in this game. Terran need vikings to counter both Void Rays and Collosus, so you'll always have them and the same goes for Corrupters/Zerg. Carriers just get owned by both of them, so I can't see what they could possibly change to make it work, ATA will own them every time. They're removing it for now to try and see if they can fix it. | ||
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Ayaz2810
United States2763 Posts
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LittLeD
Sweden7973 Posts
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NPF
Canada1635 Posts
On October 22 2011 16:24 lariat wrote: This is exactly the type of thinking that resulted in the oracle and replicant, two gimmicky as hell units that look like trash. If they don't get cut, I'm probably going to pick up brood war as hots deviates from Starcraft fundamentals too much. Speaking of Broodwar. Wasn't there a unit that you could mind control an enemy unit and basically have it, but then that unit lost all it's shield.... This is pretty much a flying darkarchon. All protoss needs is Maelstrom in LoV to complete all 3 of it's spells in the game. What I'm really wondering is, will we get a second 200/200 food cap mess around with our worse friends, by let's say nuking them when we play protoss. | ||
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