On October 22 2011 22:26 dump wrote: Honestly I'd have a lot more to say about the new units if it weren't for the fact that Browder already said on record that they're looking for cool looking units rather than having any interest in balancing the game or making it genuinely competitive and interesting.
It's just kind of hopeless to make any criticisms at this point.
Have faith. If there are glaring balance issues by the time HOTS is released they will be fixed (eventually)...The best blizzard can do in the design phase is try to add cool things; you need widescale testing and competitive play to work out balance, that's pretty hard to do in alpha.
See though, the problem is that once you introduce new stuff, the only way you can balance it is by taking things away. They can't decide after release (or any time after they announce the release date, for that matter) that, for example, shredders are bad, and try to replace them with something better. They'd have to nerf it until its utility is awkward enough that it doesn't affect the game much, but not so awkward as for it not to be used at all.
That's how it was with carriers and motherships, and look how long it took them to fix it: an entire expansion pack.
They only get so many "slots" for new units, so they have to be good ones for the game to be better.
On October 22 2011 22:38 blackbrrd wrote: Protoss gateway units have a hard time against Barracks units, but not against Factory units, so it makes perfect sense to fix the Hellion so Factory units work well against gateway units as well. Nevermind that gateway units were cost ineffective against Terran in the first place...
Exactly. They've literally given Terran more direct gateway unit counters, with the battle hellions that hard counter zealots, and warhounds that hard counter anything mech (i.e. stalkers).
Looking forward to mech TvP... just wondering how good the warhound will be in TvZ, since Z doesn't have anything mechanical.. actually im wondering how TvZ will work in general, the viper's blinding cloud seems extremely game changing, place it on tanks and they're worthless.
So many people here making silly assumptions and making up games in their head.
Nothing's final yet, anything can change. Yes, the burrowed baneling is crazy fast, but it's not like it's hardcoded or anything? People should really calm their tits alittle bit and stop with the fantasy games.
I don't understand why people don't like the new Terran units. To me they seem the best out of the bunch. Non-gimmicky units that fill weaknesses in Terran mech play.
On October 22 2011 21:42 Paladia wrote: I really dislike their idea behind the Terran changes. They felt Terran had to kite vs zealots and want to remove that, feels like they really dumb down the game to just a-move with that attitude.
As seen on
Are there similar videos for the other races available?
On October 22 2011 22:40 Numy wrote: I don't understand why people don't like the new Terran units. To me they seem the best out of the bunch. Non-gimmicky units that fill weaknesses in Terran mech play.
These "weaknesses" are nonexistent though.
Are chargelots really such a late game threat to Terran, that it warrants a new hard counter? Is TvZ not already balanced (or favoring T)?
Another factor is that these additions screw other races, which already weren't doing as well as Terran. Gateway units weren't helpless enough against T?
Browder literally said that Terran had too many goodies, and yet Terran gets luxury units designed to give them even more options.
This design team is hopeless. The only thing sc2 has going for it is statistical balance, shaky as it is - it at least tones down the ridiculous designs to a relatively manageable level of balance.
On October 22 2011 22:25 Fig wrote: The designs for the new protoss units are such fail. The only thing I'm excited about is being able to teleport my army around the map with mass recall. They made me more excited by removing a unit than adding any of the ones they did. How can Blizzard be so out of touch?
It's hard for me to be super critical of them. Since we haven't played with any of this stuff yet, how could we possibly know how it will all play out? I have faith that they will find a good amount of balance. And if they don't, the ladder will be chaos until they fix things.
I agree that balancing will be done, and I will be happier eventually. But seriously, how could they not figure out how to make a decent harass unit that doesn't add to the deathball? Instead they give toss a gimmicky 200 gas overseer that can't even attack and doesn't even detect. So much for making toss more versatile, this unit pigeonholes toss. O I see what types of units he's building! O wait I just used my 200 gas on this thing instead of a colossus...
Then you've got the replicant, which is a cop out. Well we didn't want to think up new units so we went the safe route and gave you a super expensive 200min/200gas unit that turns into other stuff that costs less. You whine about the other races being too good, we'll let you have a couple of their cool units at a jacked up price. The funniest part will be when pro level tosses just use their first replicant to copy an scv and start producing orbital commands. Totally ignoring the only good change (mass recall on nexus) because orbitals are still better.
And finally the Tempest. They take out the carrier and give us a huge corsair that costs 300/300. And it's only there to beat clumps of 30 to 50 mutas! The design of this is terrible, now toss has two air units with +damage to light. Why?Why? The least they could do is make the phoenix that harass unit everyone wanted by lowering Graviton Beam to 25 energy.
On October 22 2011 22:40 Maxie wrote: Looking forward to mech TvP... just wondering how good the warhound will be in TvZ, since Z doesn't have anything mechanical.. actually im wondering how TvZ will work in general, the viper's blinding cloud seems extremely game changing, place it on tanks and they're worthless.
Yea I'm curious about this as well. I don't think the Warhound's anti-air attack was shown at all during the panel, so dunno how effective they are at replacing the thor against mutas.
On October 22 2011 21:42 Paladia wrote: I really dislike their idea behind the Terran changes. They felt Terran had to kite vs zealots and want to remove that, feels like they really dumb down the game to just a-move with that attitude.
On October 22 2011 22:26 dump wrote: Honestly I'd have a lot more to say about the new units if it weren't for the fact that Browder already said on record that they're looking for cool looking units rather than having any interest in balancing the game or making it genuinely competitive and interesting.
It's just kind of hopeless to make any criticisms at this point.
Have faith. If there are glaring balance issues by the time HOTS is released they will be fixed (eventually)...The best blizzard can do in the design phase is try to add cool things; you need widescale testing and competitive play to work out balance, that's pretty hard to do in alpha.
I'll say it again. Blizzard is not a religion.
Why should anyone "have faith" when the designs are out. Why is criticism so feared?
Why are you trying to bring religion into this? "Have faith" is an expression. I'm not discouraging anyone from criticizing the designs. I am just merely pointing out that theorycrafting about the balance implications at this point is a waste of time without any real game scenarios to look at. I'm saying that there is nothing wrong with trying to go for the cool-factor in design, because balance is achieved through testing, not theorycrafting.
To anyone who thinks HotS Protoss will be UP, consider that by 15m game time you should be on your 3rd base. With at least one Nexus with some energy stock piled.
Tempest will be a great unit to add into the deathball against sling/bling/muta comp.
I can also see robo expand builds being used more often, scouting with probe, replicating into SCV or drone then going OC > rax > ghost. Might sac replicated SCV to free up supply; vs Z, morphing into hatch would free the supply already.
On October 22 2011 22:40 Numy wrote: I don't understand why people don't like the new Terran units. To me they seem the best out of the bunch. Non-gimmicky units that fill weaknesses in Terran mech play.
Yeah... I don't get what people are disappointed about..
The new Terran units feel like they were made to fix issues, they aren't as shiny as the new Protoss/Zerg units, but Terran really don't need a shiny new unit considering they already have such a strong base.
Also don't get why Protoss are so gloomy about HOTS. The new Mass recall means that Protoss can actually retreat gateway armies against Terran/Zerg! 6Gates will cease becoming super all-in's because you can actually save everything and not worry about losing every Sentry on the retreat! It will mean that you don't automatically lose 20 supply to a bunch of stimmed marauders as you try to run away!
To be honest, they could have only changed the Carrier/Mass recall and I would have been happy for HOTS.
Remember those Kiwikaki Mothership Blink Stalker hitsquads? You don't have to wait till a Mothership to start doing them anymore, just until your Nexus hits 75 energy! That lone makes me think that Blink might be getting nerfed
Why the hell are people discussing and debating numbers at this point? Numbers and stats can and WILL change, we are currently at alpha after all. The overall design and concept is a lot more important.
I have to say though, I really find the Oracle really boring. It may have a lot of impact and create a lot of new strategies as far as gameplay goes, but as a fan and spectator I can't find anything exciting about this unit at all. We'll just have to wait and see I guess.
I did like most of what Blizzard showed though, they are going pretty crazy with most of what they've shown so I expect a lot of it to get toned down once it hits beta and closes in on retail. Good stuff nonetheless.
So if all races are crying that they got the worst units of all.. does that mean its balanced?
But seriously.. i cant believe all the whining i see here. Almost nothing is finalised right now. They can still tweak every aspect of the units... and the concept sounds really fitting for the races.
Protoss whining is nothing new.. they have so much stuff they dont even use ist not funny. And until they get a "nuke the enemy base from orbit" button it will continue.
Shure, you may not get flashy new units.. but did you stop for a second to think about what can be achieved with what you get?
The recall ability means you will almost never again loose an expansion. It also means you will never loose your army due to an unfortunate engagement. You can even use this to endlessly draw out the game, simply teleport your army from one expansion to the next to flank, then back to base to defend. Then in your base you can do this "make every building into a cannon" thing, park your army there and go watch some porn while the enemy army melts.
The oracle is gonna be an awesome harrass unit. It completely negates mining! Remember how you raged when you found that the terran built his pf at the gold and dropped mules there? Well.. mules dont have an attack.. so if he wants to mine again he needs to bring a bit of his army over.
Not shure about the tempest.. i cant see it NOT ending up making the toss main army stronger.. it just needs colossus style range and nothing can ever touch a toss army.
I cant understand terran complaining either.. planetary + missle turret + shredder should make a 3rd or 4th pretty safe without having to park your army in front of it. You can also use shredders to guard your base while the mech army marches out.
The new mech looks a bit funny.. but should do ok if its not too expensive. And the transforming hellion should make transition from early to mid game easier since you dont have a lot of hellions sitting around that die to almost everything.
The zerg stuff sounds funny... especially if you combine it with existing zerg units. But i think the swarm lord may prove a bit hard to balance. But maybe they could be used to guard expansions. The locusts stay for 45 seconds right? if they spawn them each 15 seconds then after a little while 1 swarm lord could keep 6 of these things active. Combine that with a spine and a spore crawler and it should buy enough reaction time to bring some lings over.
I guess what im trying to say: There is so much still to figure out. Even to this day there are new strategies arising almost every day with units that are out for over a year. These new units and abilities add a lot more depth, more options to the game. And especially for pro players there will be a few more areas to explore and to spend their apm on.
On October 22 2011 22:26 dump wrote: Honestly I'd have a lot more to say about the new units if it weren't for the fact that Browder already said on record that they're looking for cool looking units rather than having any interest in balancing the game or making it genuinely competitive and interesting.
It's just kind of hopeless to make any criticisms at this point.
Have faith. If there are glaring balance issues by the time HOTS is released they will be fixed (eventually)...The best blizzard can do in the design phase is try to add cool things; you need widescale testing and competitive play to work out balance, that's pretty hard to do in alpha.
I'll say it again. Blizzard is not a religion.
Why should anyone "have faith" when the designs are out. Why is criticism so feared?
Why are you trying to bring religion into this? "Have faith" is an expression. I'm not discouraging anyone from criticizing the designs. I am just merely pointing out that theorycrafting about the balance implications at this point is a waste of time without any real game scenarios to look at. I'm saying that there is nothing wrong with trying to go for the cool-factor in design, because balance is achieved through testing, not theorycrafting.
A lot of posters have been acting like creepy cult members, and trying to squash criticism. I apologize if that was not your intent.
You make a fair enough point, but I'd say that some of the designs are just "wrong" for what they want to achieve. You can sharpen a piece of wood to make a cutting tool, or you can just design a knife from the get go. Blizzard is doing the former.
On October 22 2011 22:40 Numy wrote: I don't understand why people don't like the new Terran units. To me they seem the best out of the bunch. Non-gimmicky units that fill weaknesses in Terran mech play.
These "weaknesses" are nonexistent though.
Are chargelots really such a late game threat to Terran, that it warrants a new hard counter? Is TvZ not already balanced (or favoring T)?
Another factor is that these additions screw other races, which already weren't doing as well as Terran. Gateway units weren't helpless enough against T?
Browder literally said that Terran had too many goodies, and yet Terran gets luxury units designed to give them even more options.
This design team is hopeless. The only thing sc2 has going for it is statistical balance, shaky as it is - it at least tones down the ridiculous designs to a relatively manageable level of balance.
Problem is you are thinking of things as they currently are and then making assumptions. Like many people you can't seem to grasp that things will change. Terran mech is just not viable in matchups, these new units might make it more viable. Does this mean that Terran bio will stay as overpowering as it is? I doubt it.
If these weaknesses were nonexsistent then we would see mech being used yet we don't, so it appears like what you think and what is reality are two different things.
EPT
