On October 22 2011 22:57 nooboon wrote: Mid game phoenix/tempest play will be so brutal now (lift workers with phoenix then splash damage from tempest), will probably make the oracle obsolete.
Favorite thing from HOTS preview? The Zerg look awesome and vicious
That's why I'm so stoked... :D
So we lost the carrier but we get the super corsair aka flying thor instead, fair trade IMO. Air Protoss is now super viable now. :DDD Since having a few replicators to replicate any Viking or Corruptor that comes in our way will neutralize them.
On October 22 2011 22:47 erwthe wrote: Why the hell are people discussing and debating numbers at this point? Numbers and stats can and WILL change, we are currently at alpha after all. The overall design and concept is a lot more important.
I have to say though, I really find the Oracle really boring. It may have a lot of impact and create a lot of new strategies as far as gameplay goes, but as a fan and spectator I can't find anything exciting about this unit at all. We'll just have to wait and see I guess.
I liked most of what Blizzard showed though, they are going pretty crazy with most of what they've shown so I expect a lot of it to get toned down once it hits beta and closes in on retail. Good stuff nonetheless.
How is it boring?
At the end of the day it doesn't have the same awesome feeling you get watching hellions chew through an entire worker line but I can see just as many tense situations.
Protoss saving his own Tech structures from drops with clutch Phase shifts on his own buildings, Phase shifting specific enemy buildings like the spawning pool, cybernetics core or Starport to stop them from getting out that one key unit they need to stop some tense micro situation.
I see the unit just as more of a "Tech Raider" than a economy harass unit. Kinda like drop harass killing a TC before Charge is done, Orcales can probably be used in pushes to force a new type of reaction from your enemy.
Everyone has a decent idea of what to do when they lose workers or are getting worker harassed as they are attacked, but what do you do when your getting attacked and your Starports all go offline for the next 45seconds, but you REALLY need those Vikings? Or maybe a group of Orcales constantly start delaying your Engi bay upgrades. The first one or two times you might shrug it off, but if they start changing Phase shifts 4+ times, you can find your self 3-4mins behind on upgrades and in a really scary position
On October 22 2011 22:40 Numy wrote: I don't understand why people don't like the new Terran units. To me they seem the best out of the bunch. Non-gimmicky units that fill weaknesses in Terran mech play.
These "weaknesses" are nonexistent though.
Are chargelots really such a late game threat to Terran, that it warrants a new hard counter? Is TvZ not already balanced (or favoring T)?
Another factor is that these additions screw other races, which already weren't doing as well as Terran. Gateway units weren't helpless enough against T?
Browder literally said that Terran had too many goodies, and yet Terran gets luxury units designed to give them even more options.
This design team is hopeless. The only thing sc2 has going for it is statistical balance, shaky as it is - it at least tones down the ridiculous designs to a relatively manageable level of balance.
Problem is you are thinking of things as they currently are and then making assumptions. Like many people you can't seem to grasp that things will change. Terran mech is just not viable in matchups, these new units might make it more viable. Does this mean that Terran bio will stay as overpowering as it is? I doubt it.
If these weaknesses were nonexsistent then we would see mech being used yet we don't, so it appears like what you think and what is reality are two different things.
Why must absolutely every possible strategy from Terran be viable against the other races? Not everything in Z and P's arsenal is viable against Terran.
Z and P have much larger "holes" and Blizzard doesn't seem to have identified them at all. This makes "TvP mech" viability a luxury in comparison.
Most of these Terran additions are luxuries. Watch the Q&A with Chris Sigaty and David Kim. He flat out says that Terran didn't need Shredders, but they added them "well, because..."
Oh I see it's a "well if I can't have a cookie noone else can" mentality. What holes do Zerg have?
It's not about me. It's simply poor design and undermines the credibility and pedigree of Blizzard when it comes to game balance.
On October 22 2011 22:40 Numy wrote: I don't understand why people don't like the new Terran units. To me they seem the best out of the bunch. Non-gimmicky units that fill weaknesses in Terran mech play.
These "weaknesses" are nonexistent though.
Are chargelots really such a late game threat to Terran, that it warrants a new hard counter? Is TvZ not already balanced (or favoring T)?
Another factor is that these additions screw other races, which already weren't doing as well as Terran. Gateway units weren't helpless enough against T?
Browder literally said that Terran had too many goodies, and yet Terran gets luxury units designed to give them even more options.
This design team is hopeless. The only thing sc2 has going for it is statistical balance, shaky as it is - it at least tones down the ridiculous designs to a relatively manageable level of balance.
Problem is you are thinking of things as they currently are and then making assumptions. Like many people you can't seem to grasp that things will change. Terran mech is just not viable in matchups, these new units might make it more viable. Does this mean that Terran bio will stay as overpowering as it is? I doubt it.
If these weaknesses were nonexsistent then we would see mech being used yet we don't, so it appears like what you think and what is reality are two different things.
I can't believe that Blizzard doesn't understand that mech isn't used because bio is such a better option. I mean they buffed the hellion?! Does anyone else see the stupidity in making such a ridiculous unit more versatile? We never saw hellions in TvP because terrans just never wanted to make them late game since mmm works just fine. We will never know how well original hellions would have dealt will chargelots. They are going through all of this trouble to make mech as viable as bio when all they had to do to see some different terran unit compositions is nerf bio a bit. Let terrans struggle for once in the history of the game and come up with solutions under pressure.
What is most baffling to me is that Blizzard says that late game chargelots can be dealt with by mmm micro, but they wanted to give terrans another option (the battle hellion). If you are giving the most versatile race more options, you best be working twice as hard on the other races.
And why would they leave in the marauder after all this? This was their chance to completely shake up TvP. Move it towards mech with the new warhound that is great vs stalkers. Now that there are mech firebats you don't need concussive shells to kite zealots, you just stand and fight them. How could they not take a unit out of terrans arsenal?
I think it's a combination of bio being too strong and mech being a bit weak. Hopefully they aiming towards nerfing bio and buffing mech.
On October 22 2011 23:01 Senx wrote: And yeah I really hope the replicator gets scrapped, its going to be either completely useless because it gets nerfed into the ground or it'll be broken as fuck and make the game completely imbalanced.
No way to really balance such a unit.
It's going to end up making 1v1 feel a lot like 2v2.
On October 22 2011 22:47 erwthe wrote: Why the hell are people discussing and debating numbers at this point? Numbers and stats can and WILL change, we are currently at alpha after all. The overall design and concept is a lot more important.
I have to say though, I really find the Oracle really boring. It may have a lot of impact and create a lot of new strategies as far as gameplay goes, but as a fan and spectator I can't find anything exciting about this unit at all. We'll just have to wait and see I guess.
I liked most of what Blizzard showed though, they are going pretty crazy with most of what they've shown so I expect a lot of it to get toned down once it hits beta and closes in on retail. Good stuff nonetheless.
How is it boring?
At the end of the day it doesn't have the same awesome feeling you get watching hellions chew through an entire worker line but I can see just as many tense situations.
Protoss saving his own Tech structures from drops with clutch Phase shifts on his own buildings, Phase shifting specific enemy buildings like the spawning pool, cybernetics core or Starport to stop them from getting out that one key unit they need to stop some tense micro situation.
I see the unit just as more of a "Tech Raider" than a economy harass unit. Kinda like drop harass killing a TC before Charge is done, Orcales can probably be used in pushes to force a new type of reaction from your enemy.
Everyone has a decent idea of what to do when they lose workers or are getting worker harassed as they are attacked, but what do you do when your getting attacked and your Starports all go offline for the next 45seconds, but you REALLY need those Vikings? Or maybe a group of Orcales constantly start delaying your Engi bay upgrades. The first one or two times you might shrug it off, but if they start changing Phase shifts 4+ times, you can find your self 3-4mins behind on upgrades and in a really scary position
Yeah i agree, i think Oracle seems unique and cool, seems to have alot of possibilities to it.
no change in the fundamental problems of Protoss, while terran gets even more versatile units... and Zerg no comment....
we'll see how much of it makes it in the game. the only thing that works for protoss is mass recall, that way we might be able to harass a little bit and not lose too much. (still another borderline op spell to balance out terrible design?.....)
What is most baffling to me is that Blizzard says that late game chargelots can be dealt with by mmm micro, but they wanted to give terrans another option (the battle hellion). If you are giving the most versatile race more options, you best be working twice as hard on the other races.
One word: Mech. Why should mech not be viable in TvP? Perhaps bio doesn't need more ways to deal with mass chargelot, but mech does.
Well so far I like these new units and what they do.
I'm a toss player and I don't mind removing the momma ship and the carrier. Change is inevitable and we just have to live with that.
I'm thinking right now that there wouldn't be much of an impact in 1v1 since almost all races have their new respective units but what I'm thinking about is the impact on this in team games specifically in 4v4 when people always masses any unit that they want. Hmmm.... Well just have to wait and see
Sure wish they release a beta in the near future for us to really know how these things work in action :D
On October 22 2011 22:56 Cargocult wrote: To the people complaining about the Oracle and how it doesn't actually kill workers. You have phoenixes that are already amazing harass units if left unchecked, they can kill workers super fast the only problem is that they are fragile and so AA turrets can ward them off. Now you have the Oracle which can disable those turrets. So you can't say you don't have an effective way to kill enemy workers now, the only way they can prevent this is to have units guarding their mineral lines which is the way you defend all forms of worker harass.
The problem is that building units just for harass is not viable in a game like sc2, which is why reapers are never used over MMM, because MMM are all great in straight up battles as well. Mutas are amazing harass and decent straight up. Phoenix and Oracle? Pretty fucking awful for straight up fights, you cannot spend all that money to do harass because he will just go and fucking kill you.
What is most baffling to me is that Blizzard says that late game chargelots can be dealt with by mmm micro, but they wanted to give terrans another option (the battle hellion). If you are giving the most versatile race more options, you best be working twice as hard on the other races.
One word: Mech. Why should mech not be viable in TvP? Perhaps bio doesn't need more ways to deal with mass chargelot, but mech does.
Or I can say... "Gateway units should be viable against mech."
Where did this idea come from that 100% of Terran strategies must be viable against everything? Why should mech be viable?
On October 22 2011 22:47 erwthe wrote: Why the hell are people discussing and debating numbers at this point? Numbers and stats can and WILL change, we are currently at alpha after all. The overall design and concept is a lot more important.
I have to say though, I really find the Oracle really boring. It may have a lot of impact and create a lot of new strategies as far as gameplay goes, but as a fan and spectator I can't find anything exciting about this unit at all. We'll just have to wait and see I guess.
I liked most of what Blizzard showed though, they are going pretty crazy with most of what they've shown so I expect a lot of it to get toned down once it hits beta and closes in on retail. Good stuff nonetheless.
How is it boring?
At the end of the day it doesn't have the same awesome feeling you get watching hellions chew through an entire worker line but I can see just as many tense situations.
Protoss saving his own Tech structures from drops with clutch Phase shifts on his own buildings, Phase shifting specific enemy buildings like the spawning pool, cybernetics core or Starport to stop them from getting out that one key unit they need to stop some tense micro situation.
I see the unit just as more of a "Tech Raider" than a economy harass unit. Kinda like drop harass killing a TC before Charge is done, Orcales can probably be used in pushes to force a new type of reaction from your enemy.
Everyone has a decent idea of what to do when they lose workers or are getting worker harassed as they are attacked, but what do you do when your getting attacked and your Starports all go offline for the next 45seconds, but you REALLY need those Vikings? Or maybe a group of Orcales constantly start delaying your Engi bay upgrades. The first one or two times you might shrug it off, but if they start changing Phase shifts 4+ times, you can find your self 3-4mins behind on upgrades and in a really scary position
omg thats so true. Defensive phase shifts. I now love the oracle if the spell doesnt cost too much i could protect my robo support bay from terran drops :O
On October 22 2011 23:01 Senx wrote: And yeah I really hope the replicator gets scrapped, its going to be either completely useless because it gets nerfed into the ground or it'll be broken as fuck and make the game completely imbalanced.
No way to really balance such a unit.
It's going to end up making 1v1 feel a lot like 2v2.
Which is why it'll be fucking awesome.
CAN YOU SEE HUK REPLICATING DRONE TO EXPAND AND THEN OWNING WITH FF INTO INFESTOR/COLOSSUS/ZEALOT???
What is most baffling to me is that Blizzard says that late game chargelots can be dealt with by mmm micro, but they wanted to give terrans another option (the battle hellion). If you are giving the most versatile race more options, you best be working twice as hard on the other races.
One word: Mech. Why should mech not be viable in TvP? Perhaps bio doesn't need more ways to deal with mass chargelot, but mech does.
Or I can say... "Gateway units should be viable against mech."
Where did this idea come from that 100% of Terran strategies must be viable against everything? Why should mech be viable?
On October 22 2011 22:56 Cargocult wrote: To the people complaining about the Oracle and how it doesn't actually kill workers. You have phoenixes that are already amazing harass units if left unchecked, they can kill workers super fast the only problem is that they are fragile and so AA turrets can ward them off. Now you have the Oracle which can disable those turrets. So you can't say you don't have an effective way to kill enemy workers now, the only way they can prevent this is to have units guarding their mineral lines which is the way you defend all forms of worker harass.
The problem is that building units just for harass is not viable in a game like sc2, which is why reapers are never used over MMM, because MMM are all great in straight up battles as well. Mutas are amazing harass and decent straight up. Phoenix and Oracle? Pretty fucking awful for straight up fights, you cannot spend all that money to do harass because he will just go and fucking kill you.
Precisely. Each phoenix has to kill ~5-6 workers to justify its cost, which almost never happens. It only works as a "support harass" against zerg, when you snipe the queen, preferably with a void ray.
On October 22 2011 23:01 Senx wrote: And yeah I really hope the replicator gets scrapped, its going to be either completely useless because it gets nerfed into the ground or it'll be broken as fuck and make the game completely imbalanced.
No way to really balance such a unit.
It's going to end up making 1v1 feel a lot like 2v2.
Which is why it'll be fucking awesome.
CAN YOU SEE HUK REPLICATING DRONE TO EXPAND AND THEN OWNING WITH FF INTO INFESTOR/COLOSSUS/ZEALOT???
*takes some tissue*
I read on here somewhere, replicate a viper then pull in more vipers and replicate even more of them. Zealots + dark swarm = gg :O
What is most baffling to me is that Blizzard says that late game chargelots can be dealt with by mmm micro, but they wanted to give terrans another option (the battle hellion). If you are giving the most versatile race more options, you best be working twice as hard on the other races.
One word: Mech. Why should mech not be viable in TvP? Perhaps bio doesn't need more ways to deal with mass chargelot, but mech does.
Or I can say... "Gateway units should be viable against mech."
Where did this idea come from that 100% of Terran strategies must be viable against everything? Why should mech be viable?
Because every protoss and terran in the world is tired of playing/facing bio every TvP/PvT game? All the other matchups allow you to go for at least 2 out of the following three: mech, biomech and pure bio. I'd enjoy playing/watching something else in TvP.
What is most baffling to me is that Blizzard says that late game chargelots can be dealt with by mmm micro, but they wanted to give terrans another option (the battle hellion). If you are giving the most versatile race more options, you best be working twice as hard on the other races.
One word: Mech. Why should mech not be viable in TvP? Perhaps bio doesn't need more ways to deal with mass chargelot, but mech does.
Or I can say... "Gateway units should be viable against mech."
Where did this idea come from that 100% of Terran strategies must be viable against everything? Why should mech be viable?
EPT
