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galivet
288 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:15 Brotocol wrote: First few seconds. Edit - fixed quote to include deathball portion. I love how in the part about the the oracle all the guy can talk about is how great it is for the protoss' opponents that the oracle doesn't do any real damage and its mineral-blocking force fields are easily cleaned up. It sounds more like he's selling the unit to terran and zerg than protoss players. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:07 freetgy wrote: no change in the fundamental problems of Protoss, while terran gets even more versatile units... and Zerg no comment.... we'll see how much of it makes it in the game. It solves the two biggest Problem of the Protoss race, how fragile they are and the lack of a harass and high skill requirement high reward units One of the most difficult things to do is retreat as Protoss because the nature of their deathball and their unit formation means that they are very vulnerable on the retreat. The vast majority of the time the only thing you can ever save is Stalkers. Templars/Sentries and sometimes Zealots usually just forfeit their lives when you are put in a bad position. How many times can you remember GSL Protoss being in such a bad position that they end up losing virtually every Colossus as they try to run away due to Vikings? I'll be honest, I couldn't give you a specific game but virtually everyone has seen it happen--and I'll bet virtually every Protoss player cringes when they see it happen  The Mass recall change means that not only can you retreat in the above situations safely, but it will now be easier to defend your cross map expansions as well. Too many MMM or Ling/Roach for Gateway units to handle? Recall a few Colossus from your main army to save your expansion! Base trading in WOL makes every Protoss cry. HOTS!? The words "Don't base trade a Protoss" will be music to my ears. Arch Shield will mean that Six pools, Ling/Roach all-ins, Marine SCV allins, Proxy Zealots, 4gates, etc will all be much easier to hold with Gateway forge expands or even Nexus firsts builds. Oracle adds a new way to harass in HOTS, it isn't the same as baneling bombs but it can be just as strong given the right situation--i.e Disabling key tech structures before a Zerg remaxes, crippling your opponents upgrade progression, halting your opponents all-in or mid game timings, and being able to keep tabs on what your opponents are actually doing. Being able to view what tech your opponent is researching might not seem like a big deal, but apparently the buff lasts for 2mins, so you can cast it on your opponents lair or maybe even a tech Starport before anything happens and see them creating Banshees or researching Overlrod drops later on, it just means players who want to be safe won't get caught with their pants down as much anymore. Think about endgame ZvP, you can keep buffing the spire every 2mins to know exactly when the Zerg is going for their Broodlord timing--that kind of information wins games. The Replicant just looks like a skill based unit. There is nothing standard about it, how effective it will be comes down to how well the player who creates it uses it. The Tempest is more of a niche unit--which is fine, it fills a hole right now where Protoss are lacking | ||
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Ryder.
1117 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:24 ZeromuS wrote: It means they can give us an attacking unit that doesnt have to work in a death ball. Protoss users don't really want death balls. We don't. We want to be able to split up our army but gateway units are very weak without support in direct fights. Its hard to be in more than one place at once with our stuff so we end up deathballing. Also, how isn't the replicator a deathball unit? Make 6 replicators -- make 6 tanks and use them in conjunction with a colo/immo/zealot ball. I don't like deathballs any more than the next guy, but if I had a choice between death ball and this shit I would take death ball every single time... I would like to be able to split forces easily too, but how do any of these units encourage that? They aren't units that can hold their own to MMM or lings and roaches, they are just units with a very specific use, that undertake roles that toss didn't really need... And well I guess replicator can be used in a death ball, but I don't get the fuss over replicator unit anyway, making 6 replicators is 1200 gas, would you rather 6 seige tanks or 6 colossi? Why would you want to make seige tanks anyway? They cost double the price and population, and if you love tanks so much why aren't you playing terran? Edit: at guy above me, I don't think anybody has a problem with the new abilities (recall, that nexus cannon thing) its moreso the units... Z/T units fill in weaknesses of their respective races, I wouldn't say toss does... It seems like they created Tempest purely to counter mass muta, but mutas are only really a problem when you on 2 base trying to take a 3rd. How is a 300/300 unit needing a fleet beacon gonna help that? Out of oracle's abilities, I would say the looking at production is useless, and the disabling warp will definitely not make it into the game in current form... Considering it lasts 45 seconds, and if you disable a roach warren zergs can't build roaches... And what happens if you use it for hatch? Mineral shield is ok, but why can't protoss have a worker killing unit? Terran and zerg get several, why do they feel toss doesn't deserve one? All the mineral shield does is delay mining until they pull units back to kill it, you would have the same effect with zealot drops except zealot drops are a good mineral dump, and you might actually kill a worker or 2 if your opponent is slow. | ||
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ladyumbra
Canada1699 Posts
I feel like the protoss new units aren't that bad except the replicant which just seems so damn out of place. I mean yeah if your opponent has well upgraded stuff and you turn into one of those it's great but I'm wondering how much synergy a handull of another races units will have with the toss army. I mean you basically have to plan your build to work with these other units and then hope the terran or zerg actually make them so you can copy them. The most cost effective unit to copy is probably the infestor due to the fact that everyone gets burrow for it and you could have a handfull of them wandering around creating havoc with infested terrans all game long. *Is still in favour of scrapping the replicant and giving toss a tiny mobile shield battery unit that sacrifices it's own sheild energy to restore that amount to a selected unit. | ||
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Kickboxer
Slovenia1308 Posts
And they happened to remove the race's coolest unit. Am I missing something or is brotoss going from lame to lamer :s | ||
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Shurayuki
Germany2665 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:26 Brotocol wrote: I'm looking for another video at the moment. If you can find one, please put up the link. edited :D in the end the fact he even said it might still indicate blizz thinks that way too, i mean they had problems with P design from the very start *sadface* + Show Spoiler [here it is again] + On October 22 2011 23:26 galivet wrote: I love how in the part about the the oracle all the guy can talk about is how great it is for the protoss' opponents that the oracle doesn't do any real damage and its mineral-blocking force fields are easily cleaned up. It sounds more like he's selling the unit to terran and zerg than protoss players. as has been mentioned the tech delaying part might be tremendously useful but a harass unit that can't kill stuff at all, not sure about that. even science vessels had irradiate! | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
Oracle and replicant are cool and cute, but this recall ability could change so much more, the whole flow of the game. | ||
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El Caz
Panama48 Posts
Price and range will probably be the balancing factor for the replicant I guess, since it can be so versatile. If you need to get it too close to replicate, it can die before pulling the trick off, though judging from the video, they were pretty far away from those tanks. | ||
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Daray
6006 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:25 GreyMasta wrote: Just had a vision... If replicants get Lair/ Hive upgrades the shit's gonna be crazy. Imagine a very early replicator stealing the very 1st Roach coming out of a Zerg's hatch: Introducing the Terminatoroach: 3/3 +Speed ? +Burrow ? +Tunneling Claws!! ...While youre still on Hatch tech this bitch will be sprinting around on your creep, burrowing all over the place, regenerating energy like crazy and armored as FUCK, 1-shoting your drones... o_o Talking about lack of harrass unit, there you go. Does it say somewhere that you get maximum attack/armor upgrades? | ||
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
Because its just boring to watch. Watching somehwat mobile army vs somewhat mobile army is extremely boring if they are both pretty even in a straight fight, because then nobdoy will really attack each other, and when a fight happens (when someone gets impatient), the winner of the battle will win the game as there is barely any defenders advantage when going bio. Mech on the other hand is just much more interesting. When you have one guy trying to make a deathball and the opposing players having a lot of tools to harass and try to prevent him from making that ball it simply creates interesting games, because stuff will happen all the time. But yeh sure it should be possible to open bio once in a while, esp. for varaition, but bio should never in any matchup be "viable" late game, and this is why I am very glad that blizzard is trying to fix tvp by buffing mech. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:28 Dommk wrote: It solves the two biggest Problem of the Protoss race, how fragile they are and the lack of a harass and high skill requirement high reward units One of the most difficult things to do is retreat as Protoss because the nature of their deathball and their unit formation means that they are very vulnerable on the retreat. The vast majority of the time the only thing you can ever save is Stalkers. Templars/Sentries and sometimes Zealots usually just forfeit their lives when you are put in a bad position. How many times can you remember GSL Protoss being in such a bad position that they end up losing virtually every Colossus as they try to run away due to Vikings? I'll be honest, I couldn't give you a specific game but virtually everyone has seen it happen--and I'll bet virtually every Protoss player cringes when they see it happen The Mass recall change means that not only can you retreat in the above situations safely, but it will now be easier to defend your cross map expansions as well. Too many MMM or Ling/Roach for Gateway units to handle? Recall a few Colossus from your main army to save your expansion! Base trading in WOL makes every Protoss cry. HOTS!? The words "Don't base trade a Protoss" will be music to my ears. Arch Shield will mean that Six pools, Ling/Roach all-ins, Marine SCV allins, Proxy Zealots, 4gates, etc will all be much easier to hold with Gateway forge expands or even Nexus firsts builds. Oracle adds a new way to harass in HOTS, it isn't the same as baneling bombs but it can be just as strong given the right situation--i.e Disabling key tech structures before a Zerg remaxes, crippling your opponents upgrade progression, halting your opponents all-in or mid game timings, and being able to keep tabs on what your opponents are actually doing. Being able to view what tech your opponent is researching might not seem like a big deal, but apparently the buff lasts for 2mins, so you can cast it on your opponents lair or maybe even a tech Starport before anything happens and see them creating Banshees or researching Overlrod drops later on, it just means players who want to be safe won't get caught with their pants down as much anymore. Think about endgame ZvP, you can keep buffing the spire every 2mins to know exactly when the Zerg is going for their Broodlord timing--that kind of information wins games. The Replicant just looks like a skill based unit. There is nothing standard about it, how effective it will be comes down to how well the player who creates it uses it. The Tempest is more of a niche unit--which is fine, it fills a hole right now where Protoss are lacking The Oracle is pretty interesting and can probably be tweaked into a very effective unit just by changing it's cost, but i have serious doubts about the Replicant. It seems one of those things, like wg and forcefields, that's either too strong or too weak, and might eventually need such tweaks and other weaknesses in the race, that it's not worth it just for the "cool" factor...you know, kinda like dragoons vs stalkers. I SO wish the way to hold a 111 was to hold-position kite it all the way back home for example ^^ | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:24 Fig wrote: And they add the Tempest which is the perfect addition to the death ball.... doesn't make any sense. This is picking out what you want to hear. The reference was to the oracle harass unit. I still see it having battlefield use against PF contains and bunker rushes. I see no problem w. the Temptest being in the deathball. Since it makes mass roach/corruptor a valid comp again. | ||
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Madkipz
Norway1643 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:31 Daray wrote: Does it say somewhere that you get maximum attack/armor upgrades? no he would not get those, but he would get tunnel claws, burrow and movement speed. | ||
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Gackt_
335 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:25 GreyMasta wrote: Just had a vision... If replicants get Lair/ Hive upgrades the shit's gonna be crazy. Imagine a very early replicator stealing the very 1st Roach coming out of a Zerg's hatch: Introducing the Terminatoroach: 3/3 +Speed ? +Burrow ? +Tunneling Claws!! ...While youre still on Hatch tech this bitch will be sprinting around on your creep, burrowing all over the place, regenerating energy like crazy and armored as FUCK, 1-shoting your drones... o_o Talking about lack of harrass unit, there you go. What? It only takes upgrades the opposing player has researched, it doesn't come with all the upgrades maxxed out automatically no matter what. | ||
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lowercase
Canada1047 Posts
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Garmer
1286 Posts
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Shurayuki
Germany2665 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:30 sleepingdog wrote: The nexus recall could most definitely be game-changing in PvZ - HuK is going to love it. You can move out and pressure with the potential to straight up kill greedy zergs, without having to be afraid to get overwhelmed and just...well...lose right there. Oracle and replicant are cool and cute, but this recall ability could change so much more, the whole flow of the game. that is ridiculously cool yeah, forreference Kiwikaki-Stephano of course actually that might make stalker/colossus viable for harassment and as such i'm not as bummed about oracle not killing stuff | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:34 Whitewing wrote: What? It only takes upgrades the opposing player has researched, it doesn't come with all the upgrades maxxed out automatically no matter what. It gets things like burrow/speed, not +1 is what i understood. | ||
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Daray
6006 Posts
On October 22 2011 23:34 Whitewing wrote: What? It only takes upgrades the opposing player has researched, it doesn't come with all the upgrades maxxed out automatically no matter what. No, it comes with all possible upgrades (not attack/armor though) | ||
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